1. #801
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    You'd also have a sway of people leaving the game because they can no longer play for "free", with these people also being WoW's highest subscription payers. There's not many things I can say with absolute certainty are never going to happen, but the WoW token being removed is one of them.

    I've already given my stance on P2W multiple times this thread, but in addition to what I've previously said, I'll say this: P2W will only be an issue for me if they add things to the store that offer player-power that simply isn't obtainable in-game. Something like a store mount that goes beyond 310%, or an armour piece that's better than everything in-game.

    If that were to ever happen, I'd be the first to say WoW is P2W.
    Bolded for the truth. This is exactly what pay to win is and would be. Period.
    No idea why this thread is still going on when an undisputed fact has been laid out for the naysayers to see.
    Now people argue about gold and boosting, which are services provided by players, bought by players. It has nothing to do with pay to win, because by this logic super mario is pay to win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
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  2. #802
    Gold farmer botting is far less prevalent than it used to be. It still exists, and farmed gold is still cheaper than selling a token, but most players sell the token anyway, because there's no chance of getting banned for it.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Yeah, thanks for proving my point. So, if Blizzard started selling full mythic raids set in the store, you would have no issues with it, wouldn't you? After all, you aren't "winning" anything, you could have got those items through regular gameplay anyway, right?
    Did you read my post? I literally called buying it losing. Try again, see if you can spot it.

    But you are right, I don't mind it, let those people spend their money on gear that is useless in a few months so they get to enjoy current content at full power, what is it to you? I've said this a million times in the past, you are not special just because you've "earned" something the hard way in a game, nor does it makes you better than anyone or entitled to things they aren't. Unless you literally compete for world firsts, you are just grinding gear until the skill cap is lowered sufficiently for you to clear the next difficulty content along with everyone else.

  4. #804
    Old God Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tronski View Post
    Did you read my post? I literally called buying it losing. Try again, see if you can spot it.

    But you are right, I don't mind it, let those people spend their money on gear that is useless in a few months so they get to enjoy current content at full power, what is it to you? I've said this a million times in the past, you are not special just because you've "earned" something the hard way in a game, nor does it makes you better than anyone or entitled to things they aren't. Unless you literally compete for world firsts, you are just grinding gear until the skill cap is lowered sufficiently for you to clear the next difficulty content along with everyone else.
    At least you are being honest about letting WoW go down the proverbial slippery slope of P2W. You heard it here first bois, some posters are OK with selling full mythic sets in the store!
    Quote Originally Posted by trimble View Post
    WoD was the expansion that was targeted at non raiders.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Bolded for the truth. This is exactly what pay to win is and would be. Period.
    No idea why this thread is still going on when an undisputed fact has been laid out for the naysayers to see.
    Now people argue about gold and boosting, which are services provided by players, bought by players. It has nothing to do with pay to win, because by this logic super mario is pay to win.
    Because nothing in game allows you to skip 50 levels of content so therefore the paid character boost is pay to win by that very definition.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because nothing in game allows you to skip 50 levels of content so therefore the paid character boost is pay to win by that very definition.
    No, because you can get those levels without significantly out of line effort. The boost only lets you get them faster. It doesn't give you anything that isn't otherwise achievable with reasonable effort.

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, because you can get those levels without significantly out of line effort. The boost only lets you get them faster. It doesn't give you anything that isn't otherwise achievable with reasonable effort.
    Completely disregarding what I said, as usual. I said that there is no way to skip 50 fucking levels of content like the boost does. You cannot achieve that in game and therefore by the definition given by other people, that classifies as p2w since you are buying player power that can't be achieved in game as nothing lets you skip that much content in one fell swoop.

  8. #808
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, because you can get those levels without significantly out of line effort. The boost only lets you get them faster. It doesn't give you anything that isn't otherwise achievable with reasonable effort.
    Buying gear only lets you get it faster. It doesn't give you anything that isn't otherwise achievable with reasonable effort. Is buying gear pay to win?
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  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Bolded for the truth. This is exactly what pay to win is and would be. Period.
    No idea why this thread is still going on when an undisputed fact has been laid out for the naysayers to see.
    Now people argue about gold and boosting, which are services provided by players, bought by players. It has nothing to do with pay to win, because by this logic super mario is pay to win.
    Should point out that in the majority of games that are "pay 2 win" the stuff you can buy with actual money can also be earned in game.

    Again, if it was any other MMO doing it, there would be no discussion, it would be called p2w. Since this is WoW, people are willing to really dig in and defend it.
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  10. #810
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Completely disregarding what I said, as usual. I said that there is no way to skip 50 fucking levels of content like the boost does. You cannot achieve that in game and therefore by the definition given by other people, that classifies as p2w since you are buying player power that can't be achieved in game as nothing lets you skip that much content in one fell swoop.
    Which means it isn't P2W since it can be achieved in game. I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue here. The boost gives you up to 49 levels. Leveling to 50 does the same, it just takes longer. The boost does not give you anything that cannot be otherwise achieved except taking less time.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Buying gear only lets you get it faster. It doesn't give you anything that isn't otherwise achievable with reasonable effort. Is buying gear pay to win?
    Well, we agree then. What's your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Should point out that in the majority of games that are "pay 2 win" the stuff you can buy with actual money can also be earned in game.

    Again, if it was any other MMO doing it, there would be no discussion, it would be called p2w. Since this is WoW, people are willing to really dig in and defend it.
    Technically, yes, but it typically takes an unreasonably large amount of time to do so, making the slow path not a viable route for the vast majority of players.

  11. #811
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Well, we agree then. What's your point?
    If we agree why are you saying you don't see the level boost as pay to win to another poster?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which means it isn't P2W since it can be achieved in game. I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue here. The boost gives you up to 49 levels. Leveling to 50 does the same, it just takes longer. The boost does not give you anything that cannot be otherwise achieved except taking less time.



    Well, we agree then. What's your point?
    There is no way you are actually this fucking dense. Absolutely nothing in WoW allows you to jump straight to level 50 from level 1 outside of the paid character boost. Which means it is p2w. By your asinine logic, p2w just doesn't exist AT ALL. Your latest comment proves you're not willing or interested in having a mature and logical conversation about this topic.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If we agree why are you saying you don't see the level boost as pay to win to another poster?
    Because you didn't make an argument on whether it was P2W in your post.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There is no way you are actually this fucking dense. Absolutely nothing in WoW allows you to jump straight to level 50 from level 1 outside of the paid character boost. Which means it is p2w. By your asinine logic, p2w just doesn't exist AT ALL. Your latest comment proves you're not willing or interested in having a mature and logical conversation about this topic.
    I explained my rationale. You refuse to even consider it and just endlessly repeat your original claim. Which of us is immature here?

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Should point out that in the majority of games that are "pay 2 win" the stuff you can buy with actual money can also be earned in game.

    Again, if it was any other MMO doing it, there would be no discussion, it would be called p2w. Since this is WoW, people are willing to really dig in and defend it.
    FFXIV does sell boosts for specific roles.

    I rarely see anyone calling the game P2W.
    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/tales_of_adventure/

  15. #815
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    We are just ping pong all over the place with what is counted as Pay 2 Win.

    Boost (Unless it is a boost by players unless that boost is paid for by gold earned from an item bought for real money).
    Items bought for real money sold for gold (Token and TCG).
    Gear (That is a given, this includes gear from boosts unless you paid fairly for the boost and not from selling an item bought with real money. Also includes if you use the gold on anything that can move you forward in current content(?) need to hear about that one).
    Buffs (That is a given).
    Products that offer an advantage (That is a given).

    WoW does not have three of the options, but it does have a boost (a direct P2W (Though with disagreements, as you aren't obtaining any current content) and tokens/TCG (an indirect P2W)

    So, yes. Since October 2006, WoW has been P2W indirectly according to the thread.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Because you didn't make an argument on whether it was P2W in your post.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I explained my rationale. You refuse to even consider it and just endlessly repeat your original claim. Which of us is immature here?
    No you didn't. Your rationale is utterly illogical and goes against the definitions of p2w that has been explained by numerous people in the thread. You are so willing to admit you're wrong that you are throwing sense out the window.

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    FFXIV does sell boosts for specific roles.

    I rarely see anyone calling the game P2W.
    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/tales_of_adventure/
    I personally dont find boosts to be p2w, I find the buying currency to be p2w, which you cannot do in FFXIV.
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  18. #818
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Again, if it was any other MMO doing it, there would be no discussion, it would be called p2w. Since this is WoW, people are willing to really dig in and defend it.
    Naw. I accepted with a minor win, the boost is P2W, but the winning is so minor compared to the price that overall, it is a loss but because you can save 3-6 hours playing time, it is a win to some.

    Now I'm just stuck at how people can proclaim that the token is P2W but TCG which is almost the same, except gambling, is not P2W.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    FFXIV does sell boosts for specific roles.

    I rarely see anyone calling the game P2W.
    https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/tales_of_adventure/
    It is also free up until that level point. On principle you are correct. That said people feel that FF offers better value then blizzard nickel and diming everything.

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    I personally dont find boosts to be p2w, I find the buying currency to be p2w, which you cannot do in FFXIV.
    Oh, welp sorry. I saw people mentioning boosts again and focusing on that again.

    I do get where people come from with the gold aspect, but to me it's more of a "well it's always been there in different forms", so it's kinda gray to me in that regards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It is also free up until that level point. On principle you are correct. That said people feel that FF offers better value then blizzard nickel and diming everything.
    FF does have a far better free trial, yes.

    But I will say glancing over the FFXIV shop it doesn't seem that far off from WoW besides the ability to buy gold, the shop just isn't incorporated to the game directly as far as I've found.

    Although I want Fatter Cat.

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