Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[beanman12345]

You aren't using real money to win though. You are using gold. All of what you describe is possible by simply playing the Auction House or other means of earning gold. Or if you still have a large stock pile from WoD and Legion. Look at the AH mount. Do you really think most people used tokens to buy that? That they paid thousands of dollars for the mount?

Gold allows you to do all sorts of things in the game. The token just takes gold that someone earned and gives it to you. If no one one offers up their gold there is no way for you to trade your money for gold. A player supplied service with player supplied gold is not pay to win. It is just using the game systems as they were designed. To trade gold for stuff.

this is how P2W games work. They take your money, convert it to an currency, you use currency to buy BiS items. most of these P2W games allow you go get said currency without paying as well, doesn't make them less P2W.

[rhorle]

this is how P2W games work. They take your money, convert it to an currency, you use currency to buy BiS items. most of these P2W games allow you go get said currency without paying as well, doesn't make them less P2W.

Who is supplying those services and items though. The players or the developers? How can something be pay to win if you can pay and win nothing. Or want to pay but not be able to. Or pay and buy goblin gliders. Or any other number of possibilities that having gold allows.

- - - Updated - - -

Dude please....for the love of god....Cant you see where that gold is coming from?....That is right, Tokens. With that gold, that you paid by selling your tokens, you are buying mounts, carries (PVP and PVE), enchantments, potions....you call it!, What ever is in the AH. Is P2W!!.

The gold comes from players not tokens. A token does not create gold. Using your definition of pay to win isn't simply paying a subscription and box price make the game pay to win? Does buy a goblin glider from the AH with a token allow you to win anything? Or is it a micro transaction? Or are you going to try and claim that all microtransactions are pay to win?

[beanman12345]

Who is supplying those services and items though. The players or the developers? How can something be pay to win if you can pay and win nothing. Or want to pay but not be able to. Or pay and buy goblin gliders. Or any other number of possibilities that having gold allows.

I do see the argument that it's a player supplied way to win, not a developer, as mentioned in previous post, it's not a developer putting it on a vendor. But regardless you can still use RL currency to get BIS items with no effort.

[rhorle]

I do see the argument that it's a player supplied way to win, not a developer, as mentioned in previous post, it's not a developer putting it on a vendor. But regardless you can still use RL currency to get BIS items with no effort.

But it still required the effort of a player. Because that gold had to be earned in game in order for another player to be able to buy it. You can also skip the real money and just get those items with "pure" gold. You are also still bound by RNG. In a run you are still bound by personal loot or the lucky of group members to be traded items. From the AH it requires the luck of other players in order to get an item and outside of corruption BoE items are usually not best in slot. Upgrades? Sure.

- - - Updated - - -

And who do you think is getting those US Dollars?. The player?...Nop, Blizzard. That is called Pay To Win my friend.

Blizzard also pays $15 of that out. So they only get $5 for every transaction as a fee. Just having gold doesn't win you anything. There is no competition to the highest bank account. It is also hilarious that when your argument fails you turn to personal insults. That shows a far greater problem with yourself then anything you could accuse me of. At no point have I defend Blizzard but merely countered your argument.

[Crimson Spears]

But it still required the effort of a player. Because that gold had to be earned in game in order for another player to be able to buy it. You can also skip the real money and just get those items with "pure" gold. You are also still bound by RNG. In a run you are still bound by personal loot or the lucky of group members to be traded items. From the AH it requires the luck of other players in order to get an item and outside of corruption BoE items are usually not best in slot. Upgrades? Sure.

- - - Updated - - -



Blizzard also pays $15 of that out. So they only get $5 for every transaction as a fee. Just having gold doesn't win you anything. There is no competition to the highest bank account. It is also hilarious that when your argument fails you turn to personal insults. That shows a far greater problem with yourself then anything you could accuse me of. At no point have I defend Blizzard but merely countered your argument.

When someone has been proven wrong repeatedly but going on about weird personal perceptions after they abandoned any factual argument like you have. The most civil thing to do is to reticule you till you stop. It is how negative actors are removed from public discourse. Now I am not going to do that as here the reverse is true normally that is how things work out.

[beanman12345]

But it still required the effort of a player. Because that gold had to be earned in game in order for another player to be able to buy it. You can also skip the real money and just get those items with "pure" gold. You are also still bound by RNG. In a run you are still bound by personal loot or the lucky of group members to be traded items. From the AH it requires the luck of other players in order to get an item and outside of corruption BoE items are usually not best in slot. Upgrades? Sure.

It required the effort of players to be get geared enough and skilled enough to be able to sell boosts, which is meaningless. It required blizzard to come up with a nice way to buy gold with money and it required blizzard to do nothing to discourage boosts. Fact is, someone can pay RL currency to get BIS items with no effort and therefore it's pay to win. There isn't enough "buts" to change that fact.

[rhorle]

Who cares about the level of effort of a player....You paid Blizzard US dollars to get "that guy" gold, and that gold is going to serve you to pay the AH/Other player/Guild etc...to win the game. And by winning the game means, complete a Raid, Win Rank in PvP, get that mount drop....etc.

So you aren't paying to win. You are paying for the ability to maybe win. Effort and separation from the win are important distinctions.

[rhorle]

When someone has been proven wrong repeatedly but going on about weird personal perceptions after they abandoned any factual argument like you have. The most civil thing to do is to reticule you till you stop. It is how negative actors are removed from public discourse. Now I am not going to do that as here the reverse is true normally that is how things work out.

Ridicule. If you are going to be a negative actor at least put some effort into it please. I haven't abandoned any factual arguments or a weird perception of pay to win. Pay to win is the act of buying power for real life money. Buying gold is not buying power. Gold is not a special currency that is created just for paying to win. It is not given out in a trickle to entice "free players" for partaking. The other key thing is the directness of buying that power and if it comes from normal game play or not.

[rhorle]

It required the effort of players to be get geared enough and skilled enough to be able to sell boosts, which is meaningless. It required blizzard to come up with a nice way to buy gold with money and it required blizzard to do nothing to discourage boosts. Fact is, someone can pay RL currency to get BIS items with no effort and therefore it's pay to win. There isn't enough "buts" to change that fact.

Blizzard has never done anything to discourage boosts. Group play is a normal part of the game and trading that play for things is also a normal part of play. It isn't for no effort either as you just said it takes effort for the boosters to provide the service. Weird how you dismiss something as meaningless when it goes against a cornerstone of your argument.

[rhorle]

@beanman12345, for real. The only reason i believe these guys defend so hard WoW Tokens, is because they probably wasted tons and tons of US Dollars on that crap. And in order to avoid feeling bad about it, they defend it. They probably suffer from WoW-Addiction. Because there is no way to explain this behavior.

So you can't win an argument on merits so you turn to insults. Including make things up just so you can feel better about yourself. I have never bought a token with real money. I have bought them with gold because the idea of saving $13 a month is nice. Shadowlands is the first time I've been able to buy tokens in a large amount since it has also be easy for me to gain "close to" passive gold. At least until the token price went higher then 130k.

It is laughable that the only reason someone could disagree with you is that they are addicted to WoW. Stop projecting. If you dislike what Blizzard has done so much why are you still playing let alone discussing it on a fan site forum?

- - - Updated - - -

@rhorle, it doesnt even make sense what you are saying. You said that is not Pay to Win just because another guy farmed the gold and used the gold to purchase a WoW-Token, and the other players get the gold and then proceed to buy tons of things with it, just because it looks like a fair play?. Don't you think is Pay to Win, to take out your wallet, use your credit card in Blizzard Web Page, purchase a Token, wait for the gold to arrive to your mail and then buy a space in the next raid + paying gold for the drops?...or even PvP rank wins?. Is Pay to Win.!

Nope. Because buying gold is not paying for a win. It is paying for possibilities that cover far more then just a win. It is a micro transaction and not all micro transactions are pay to win. A mount? Not pay to win. A flask? Not pay to win. Trading gold for a boost, BoP, or BoE is not pay to win. Because that is gold and is a normal part of group play.

[rhorle]

You are able to get in WoW all the items you need, faster than anyone else, by getting tons of gold, that would require tons of time investment. In WoW you can also use gold to buy Ranks in PvP, Raid participation + drops + mount drops + kills for achievements. Etc. Do you understand now?

You do not get them faster then anyone else. You get them at the same speed as everyone else because the loot system does not change just because you bought a token. The gold comes at the same speed as everyone else is capable of doing because another player has to have done it. Notice how you said in wow you can also used gold to buy. Why didn't you say that in wow you can use real money to buy?

Buying gold is a micro transaction for gold. What you do with that gold after that does not suddenly make something pay to win. Your own definition clearly supports this. As you are not buying better gear or making better items. You are buying gold, not gear. You are buying gold, not crafting mats. The gear and items you get with gold are not done at a faster rate then everyone else and requires skilled players to carry you.

- - - Updated - - -

Dude, stop that idea of: "I'm super smart because i save tons of bucks, while i spend hours in the PC playing WoW all day getting gold to buy Tokens". That is just lame. And is clear that you participate on this Pay to Win crap.

So now you are insulting me because I enjoy a game I play? Why are you getting so upset over not being able to bully someone with your point of view? I already said I participate because I buy tokens with gold. Why did you think that wasn't clear when I stated it. Lol.

[beanman12345]

Blizzard has never done anything to discourage boosts. Group play is a normal part of the game and trading that play for things is also a normal part of play. It isn't for no effort either as you just said it takes effort for the boosters to provide the service. Weird how you dismiss something as meaningless when it goes against a cornerstone of your argument.

You can build a house yourself and go through all the effort and work to get that, or just get the house that many many people already built and is ready to go. House buying is P2W. Using RL money to get BIS is P2W.

[rhorle]

You can build a house yourself and go through all the effort and work to get that, or just get the house that many many people already built and is ready to go. House buying is P2W. Using RL money to get BIS is P2W.

Of course buying a house is pay to win. It is real life. What kind of argument is that? You are paying a builder to provide a house. That actually disproves your claim since you are not paying to be given gear. And as I said best in slot is not guaranteed just because you buy a Mythic raid carry. So it isn't pay to win by your own arguments. Lol.

[beanman12345]

Of course buying a house is pay to win. It is real life. What kind of argument is that? You are paying a builder to provide a house. That actually disproves your claim since you are not paying to be given gear. And as I said best in slot is not guaranteed just because you buy a Mythic raid carry. So it isn't pay to win by your own arguments. Lol.

What kind of argument is it, an argument that destroys every post you make.

[beanman12345]

So, the AH doesn't sell raid items? Are you sure? Are you playing the same game as i do?, Because if i remember correctly, there are tons of high level items on the AH that cost tons of gold, same items that would take a random guy tons of time to unlock. And not only that, the expensive enchants + potions + mounts...You name it.

And people selling carries + PvP Ranks + Raid kills in Higher difficult + Selling drops. You don't buy that stuff with gold dont you?.

Because in my years of WoW i have seen guys fully equip with epics, just because they paid for carries....Or did you forget all the Ban waves Blizzard does against players selling them for real money? (Only the House wins). The only reason it stays on just gold trading is because of that, Ban-Waves. But that doesn't mean that Blizzard is the one providing the ways for a Pay To Win, is not obvious as in other games, but is a sneaky way of doing it.

And is still Pay To Win.

- - - Updated - - -



I dont understand Rhorle. Really, something is wrong with this guy...

The thing that is wrong is his willful ignorance. I'm giving up.

[Lochton]

You can build a house yourself and go through all the effort and work to get that, or just get the house that many many people already built and is ready to go. House buying is P2W. Using RL money to get BIS is P2W.

Eh, you can't compare house purchases with loot.

You don't drop a million dollars for a random chance to get a house, do you?

But how people seem to argue on it, I'll stick to my point then, if the token is P2W, then TCG is P2W, and the game has been P2W since October 2006, and this topic is basically done by now.

[rhorle]

What kind of argument is it, an argument that destroys every post you make.

Say saying it does won't change anything. Blizzard isn't the builder that you are paying for a house. The other players are and you are paying the builder in gold not real money.

[beanman12345]

Eh, you can't compare house purchases with loot.

You don't drop a million dollars for a random chance to get a house, do you?

Some drop plenty of money on random houses. Never heard of sight unseen house auctions?

[Lochton]

Some drop plenty of money on random houses. Never heard of sight unseen house auctions?

You still get a house, though? Unlike a boost, where you have a chance for loot but there is no security at all?

[rhorle]

So, the AH doesn't sell raid items? Are you sure? Are you playing the same game as i do?, Because if i remember correctly, there are tons of high level items on the AH that cost tons of gold, same items that would take a random guy tons of time to unlock. And not only that, the expensive enchants + potions + mounts...You name it.

Where did I say that you couldn't buy BoE's on the auction house? It seems clear why you don't understand me because you don't even know the things that I am stating. Every item on the auction house requires a player to post that auction. The only time it doesn't is through the BMAH. Using gold to purchase something from the BMAH is the only way to stretch buying gold as pay to win. But the gear bought from the BMAH is rarely anything useful and is mostly transmog related.

Carries, pvp ranks, raid kills in higher difficultly, drops are all bought with gold. If it isn't bought with gold then that is against the rules. Which is why the gallywix gold boosting community got shut down and had accounts banned. They were not just selling boosts for gold but also for real money. Another point against your argument.