Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Sagenod]

Of course WoW is pay to win. You pay $15/month to play the game, while anyone who can't afford that can't play. Therefore as a paying player you win by elimination.

In all seriousness though, doesn't make sense how you could call the game "pay to win" due to the token when it gives you gold, the same currency everyone else uses. Gold isn't difficult to make if you have a very rudimentary understanding of professions and the auction house. Furthermore, the things you can buy with gold can only give you an advantage over players who are at or below your ilvl, which is completely irrelevant when those players get raid gear, enchants, consumables, etc.

This is a dumb argument.

[Cuppy]

Purchasable with real bux
Can still use cash to buy power
/Thread

Can still use that freely farmed gold to get money, pay to get paid
/thread

Rofl get off your high horse dude, nobody owes you anything. If you said a cow is a human you'd be called an idiot by anyone, nobody would bother arguing semantics with someone entertaining such utterly ridiculous notions.

Exactly, no one owes me anything.
You said I would be called an idiot because I state my opinion as a fact yes? But somehow my anecdotal evidence aka fact, is not accepted.
Yep, this is why I had to take an infraction. Do you see who I'm dealing with? I'm dealing with flat earthers here, who say a lot of things, and keep to their entitled opinion despite the facts I gave you.

Your personal experience with his game is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. You not partaking in these P2W schemes again is entirely irrelevant. These elements still exist and are P2W whether or not you use them.

Let's see here "Your personal experience with his game is entirely irrelevant to this discussion." Then what are these experiences of pay to win you talk about? Are they not personal experience? Those things suddenly became facts?
There is a word for this type of behaviour, I'm sure you can help me with this one.

But it hits the big point you and many other zealous posters have issues with. Disconnecting your personal feeling for the game in order to hold a good faith arguments. This is a very common thing called an escalation of commitment. The more you invest your resources into something the harder it becomes to judge it fairly because you blind yourself for the possible reality that your investment doesn't pay out.

Sure. And you yourself are so deep in some weird conspiracy theory limbo you cannot get out.
Man I gave you examples. I asked you questions. These are things you should really, and I mean really consider when you are having a discussion other than arguing is green color better than orange.
I'll give you another chance, I know you will just quote my post with another "dude lol, blablaam blablaaaa" because these things I ask you prove me correct, and you cannot answer these questions I ask you, I know man, it's internet. You don't owe me anything, I don't owe you anything, but if you think there is a fool in this conversation, I'm pretty sure I know who that is.
Nevertheless here it goes. Answer this:
Which game you think is not pay to win?

Also, read this and give me an opinion:

You claim the game is pay(paying money) to win(to achieve your "win", whatever that is)
I show you this player who did not pay to "win", but still "won". It is a fact, simple as that. Do you understand what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?
It's true, and it's right here for you laid out in the simplest form I can come up with.
I'll make you another example, where I use something that is really pay to win.
You claim this game-X is pay to win.
I play the game and die to an enemy. I read that I have to stun this said enemy. I have to get "stun the opponent for 5 seconds" skill from the shop. This is the only way I can stun my enemy in this game.

Did you read it? I bet you did, and I also bet you didn't answer anything. Wow I got so trolled, wow man, you clearly.... won.... These forums are... write to win

[TheRevenantHero]

No, that's a boost. You don't gain any real advantage over other players in the game since spending real money isn't as powerful as being skilled or have more time to play. Please understand that. That's what P2W is. Getting an advantage that trumps time and skill. Not a very hard concept.

You're just trying to change the meaning of a word (Well, phrase) to hate on a company. That's how sad you're acting now.

I don't really care much for the boost, I get that people wanna jump straight into TBC but it's quite boring to lvl Draenei with my GF and there's literally only shamans around and its close to impossible to find a group. Because of the boost.

But that doesn't make it P2W. Buying gear better than T4 in the current phase would be. Buying a special skill you can use in Arena would be.

That's not what p2w is 100% Buying character power is p2w and therefore the character boost is p2w. Once again, just because YOU think it's trivial doesn't mean it is.

[P for Pancetta]

Can still use that freely farmed gold to get money, pay to get paid
/thread



Exactly, no one owes me anything.
You said I would be called an idiot because I state my opinion as a fact yes? But somehow my anecdotal evidence aka fact, is not accepted.
Yep, this is why I had to take an infraction. Do you see who I'm dealing with? I'm dealing with flat earthers here, who say a lot of things, and keep to their entitled opinion despite the facts I gave you.


Let's see here "Your personal experience with his game is entirely irrelevant to this discussion." Then what are these experiences of pay to win you talk about? Are they not personal experience? Those things suddenly became facts?
There is a word for this type of behaviour, I'm sure you can help me with this one.


Sure. And you yourself are so deep in some weird conspiracy theory limbo you cannot get out.
Man I gave you examples. I asked you questions. These are things you should really, and I mean really consider when you are having a discussion other than arguing is green color better than orange.
I'll give you another chance, I know you will just quote my post with another "dude lol, blablaam blablaaaa" because these things I ask you prove me correct, and you cannot answer these questions I ask you, I know man, it's internet. You don't owe me anything, I don't owe you anything, but if you think there is a fool in this conversation, I'm pretty sure I know who that is.
Nevertheless here it goes. Answer this:
Which game you think is not pay to win?

Also, read this and give me an opinion:

You claim the game is pay(paying money) to win(to achieve your "win", whatever that is)
I show you this player who did not pay to "win", but still "won". It is a fact, simple as that. Do you understand what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?
It's true, and it's right here for you laid out in the simplest form I can come up with.
I'll make you another example, where I use something that is really pay to win.
You claim this game-X is pay to win.
I play the game and die to an enemy. I read that I have to stun this said enemy. I have to get "stun the opponent for 5 seconds" skill from the shop. This is the only way I can stun my enemy in this game.

Did you read it? I bet you did, and I also bet you didn't answer anything. Wow I got so trolled, wow man, you clearly.... won.... These forums are... write to win

What is this innate ramble?a

anecdotal evidence != fact

The fact that boosting and tokens exist has nothing to do with my experiences nor yours.

Please get some help.

Also, read this and give me an opinion:

You claim the game is pay(paying money) to win(to achieve your "win", whatever that is)

I don't claim it, I state it because I have proof (unlike you).

Part of game design is a win condition, for MMORPGS these are multivalent things based not only on the game itself but also on the perceived value of these win conditions by players (more difficult things are more prestigious generally).

If it is a possibility to reach one of these win-conditions by spending a real life currency, people with enough disposable income will be able to create for themselves an advantage over those who can't. This is Pay 2 Win.

I show you this player who did not pay to "win", but still "won". It is a fact, simple as that. Do you understand what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

I'm perfectly aware of the difference between a fact and an opinion but you're seeming to have trouble with these easy concepts.

the individual player doesn't matter, there are many players playing P2W games that never pay and still reach the ultimate win condition. Many of these games are free 2 play as well. A great example is world of tanks a P2W game that just like wow allows everyone to farm anything given enough time. Many other P2W games provide a level of power that can't be achieved without paying. These are all still P2W games yet just like with most things in life they exist on a spectrum. Some are purely P2W and some like WoW are more complicated.

It's true, and it's right here for you laid out in the simplest form I can come up with.
I'll make you another example, where I use something that is really pay to win.
You claim this game-X is pay to win.
I play the game and die to an enemy. I read that I have to stun this said enemy. I have to get "stun the opponent for 5 seconds" skill from the shop. This is the only way I can stun my enemy in this game.

Yes thats a clear P2W element, but wow also has many clear P2W elements.

[rhorle]

You paid Real Money to get an advantage in the game is Pay to Win. Is simple as that.

It isn't as simple as that. You pay real money for gold. You then use the gold to buy an advantage from a player. Gold is not an advantage by itself.

[Borgmore]

No…it’s pay for mounts, pets, mogs, game time, token sales, but it’s not pay to win…..close with the token sales but only close.

[Mashanerz]

So I think 2 things need to be considered.

What is winning? Is it having a level 50 character? Or a very specific mount/pet/toy? Is winning when you get KSM? or 1800 rating in PvP? or getting AotC or CE? Is winning raiding in a top 100 guild? Or smacking fools in duels?

If winning is getting a level 50 char or a store item...yeah, it's pay to win.

If winning is getting CE or AotC, or KSM, or Glad.....yeah, it's pay to win because people sell these for gold and blizz absolutely profits from this by selling gold. This is one of the driving factors of the market.

If winning is raiding in a top guild or finishing in the top of the PvP bracket, or smacking people in duels....can't really pay to win there, or at least it's not something I'm aware of, but it's also a small part of the game. Having money to throw around will help you make connections though, and connections can help you learn how to play.

[Lochton]

Yep, is just a conspiracy crap with no proof. Just crazy ideas of mine.

Where it should stay.

And for the token, i dont support it. It only help support other people addiction to the game, avoiding paying real money for their subscription and access to the server

So, you have an addiction if you wish to play the game but only way to make it run around it Play2Win?

Promoting unhealthy playstyle for said player who play WoW to pay it.

So, you are dictating their lifestyle and what is healthy or not? If they have their methods and enjoy the game, has social interaction, friends, that is promoting unhealthy playstyle?

And from the gold buyer, to boost himself with Economical Power to take advantage of the game and win. Pay to Win.

Yes, you've repeated that, but with that statement, anyone with more than enough money has an economic advantage over those who do not.

If there are people out there who are not able to pay for the game, maybe WoW is not for them.

And why is the game not for them if the token finally has proven that they can enjoy the game with other people without losing money?

If you want to use your time to farm gold to sell, it doesn't look like a healthy way of playing a game, sounds more like a job you are doing for other people and Blizzard. Back then, the game was about doing quests, defeat powerful enemies and complete achievements.

It still is about following the story, defeat your foes, social interactions, and developing. You can, without making it feel like a job, play the game and get enough gold for a token without even over-working themselves. People spend tons of time farming cosmetics, others gold, complete third, ratings. People enjoy games differently, hence people cannot agree on what winning is.

I don't support Tokens or Boosts, since they are Pay to Win. You pay money, you get ingame currency. You pay money, you get power. Is P2W.

Pay2Win for some, Play2Win for others.

And though you do not recognize my repeating of it, I am glad you agree that boosts are P2W, even if minor for some, when you before marked it as being okay.

- - - Updated - - -

It isn't as simple as that. You pay real money for gold. You then use the gold to buy an advantage from a player. Gold is not an advantage by itself.

This is where, a few 40 or so pages back, that they added "indirect P2W" as being a thing, even though the definitions state that it is the purchase of advantages FROM the developer. Making gold an advantage is like injecting tracing into your veins before a scan to look for issues, you'll see it spread into everything, even if it does not serve as a win for everything.

So, with this theory, and if we stay within ToS, then WoW's indirect P2W has spread through out the veins since 2006, and everyone has a part, and according to some, are part of the P2W even if they do not actually support it.

[rhorle]

Gold gets you everything in the AH, from players.....

Which means it isn't as simple as paying money and getting an advantage. Even if we all accept your definition it still is not as simple. Because the advantage still comes from multiple other steps. It requires a group of players to boost you through an instance. It takes a group of players to get raid trash drops to sell. It takes someone to craft, gather, or collect things to buy it from the Auction House. It requires a vendor to have the item in stock. Etc.

Buying gold isn't an advantage. The advantage comes from what you do with the gold you bought because of the inherent design of gold. Cosmetics are still not an advantage in the context of Pay to Win. Those would be micro transactions and it is well established that not all micro transactions are pay to win. Which means you are overly broad with your opinion of it.

[arkanon]

Except in this discussion. I say cow is a human because it has eyes, ears, brain, an organ which pumps blood into its body. Just like a human. Its human.
You can explain me it is not human, but isnt that just semantics and arguing for the sakes of arguing?
I’ve played the game for 17 years, havent bought gold once. Havent bought a boost once.
Why am I here telling everyone it is not pay to win?
My brother has played 17 years too, he has 2 million gold. Never played AH and I think he never even uses it, doesnt buy anything. Has 30k achievement points, near 500 mounts. Never bought token or gold or a boost. Now that is some facts, and that is a fucking living proof that the game is not pay to win, but you dense mot***********rs dismiss all I said, and say it is pay to win because you CAN use your goddamn money for some irrelevant stupid shit like a cool mount, transmog or an achievement or BoE item in AH.
You havent even seen a pay to win if you say wow is one.


And just to avoid infraction: *********** = hwingedlove

You are very, VERY confused. You have given 2 examples of 2 people who have chosen not to partake in any of the P2W features of the game, and are using that as evidence that they dont exist? I dont watch Kardashians - but i know it exists, and that other people do watch it. This is your story:

"Me and my brother have both been successful at our jobs, and have never used Meth - i dont know why you dense people think Meth exists, it very clearly doesnt".

[Cuppy]

You are very, VERY confused. You have given 2 examples of 2 people who have chosen not to partake in any of the P2W features of the game, and are using that as evidence that they dont exist? I dont watch Kardashians - but i know it exists, and that other people do watch it. This is your story:

Oh man you got me... Except, you just activated my trap card huzzah!
Do you understand that every game is pay to win, by this very thing you said yourself? Yep, you can pay to win that super mario. It's pay to win man, and if you accept that super mario single player game that came out like 1980, is pay to win, I accept that wow is pay to win.
(I accept that this is your definition of pay to win, and there is no point discussing it further. I'd say the same thing if we'd argue which color is better, red or green)
Why you ask? Well I can buy super mario booster for myself. Sure it has no achievements but who cares, I win the game by paying someone to boost me to win.
Right?
You say I gave out examples of 2 people who chose not to partake in these P2W features(which include, we all know, the dreaded boosting sold by other players) But because you CAN go to www.buycompletedgameplayedbyothersdotcom, that game becomes pay to win by this very logic you presented.

"Me and my brother have both been successful at our jobs, and have never used Meth - i dont know why you dense people think Meth exists, it very clearly doesnt".

"There is meth in my workplace, and some people use it. This work is meth to win! I know you don't use meth but that's just like your opinion, and just because you didn't partake consuming that meth, doesn't remove the fact that these guys did that at work, so meth to win"

[rhorle]

that is a big lie over there. Is super simple getting that advantage. The trade channel is full of spam of people selling carries/ Raid bosses kills, etc.... Everything in WoW is worth tons of gold for these services. Prices created by the Token and there are people actually paying them. Is clear the abuse is right there.

How do you know what things are worth if you haven't even played the game recently? Everything in WoW is not worth tons of gold. The prices of the group boosts also change based on demand. Which is independent of the token.

[Cuppy]

You paid Real Money to get an advantage in the game is Pay to Win. Is simple as that.

You daft and funny man If you read it, this time with just a bit more thought, you will see that no one in my examples paid anything Simple as that.

[rhorle]

The answer to that question was also posted here....from someone who also debated with you about it. And he even explained to you how it has been working and keeps working lately. Please go back on this thread and read it.

So in other words you don't know. You are making things up.

[tacoloco]

You claim the game is pay(paying money) to win(to achieve your "win", whatever that is), You claim this game-X is pay to win.

I didn't claim anything. And we're not talking about cows and humans. We're talking about differences in perspectives about what P2W means. You seem to think that P2W means that nobody can succeed without using P2W elements. That's a perfectly valid opinion. But make no mistake, it's an opinion, not a fact.

I show you this player who did not pay to "win", but still "won". It is a fact, simple as that. Do you understand what is the difference between a fact and an opinion?

If a game has P2W elements it doesn't, by definition, preclude someone from being successful without taking advantage of them. Your anecdote is only relevant insofar as your specific definition of P2W is concerned. And again, your definition is not fact. It's opinion.

--

And since I've been accused of claiming something, I may as well make a claim. My definition if P2W (which is also not a fact, but my opinion) is anything that allows players to be more successful than they would otherwise. For example, tokens are a P2W element. People can buy gold with RL money, which can, in turn, be used to buy mythic/raid boosts and to buy some pretty high end BoE gear. Win in this context is simply advancing further than they would be able to without tokens. That said, to be perfectly honest, I don't have any problem with it. Mainly from the perspective that it doesn't affect me in any way what other people spend their money on. If it makes someone happy to get a boost or get a shiny new piece of gear from the AH, who am I to criticize?

[tacoloco]

"There is meth in my workplace, and some people use it. This work is meth to win! I know you don't use meth but that's just like your opinion, and just because you didn't partake consuming that meth, doesn't remove the fact that these guys did that at work, so meth to win"

This is a ridiculous argument. I mean pants on head ridiculous. Just accept the fact that people disagree with you. You're not influencing anyone with this kind of weird comment.

[Cuppy]

What is this innate ramble?a
anecdotal evidence != fact
The fact that boosting and tokens exist has nothing to do with my experiences nor yours.
Please get some help.

Well I'd say my anecdotal evidence is much more reliable source of anything really, opinion, a fact... you name it. What did you provide? You didn't even provide that anecdotal evidence, you just type pay to win payto win paytowin pay towin. The only thing I need help with is using my time(Which btw I could use farming free gold= real life currency as the game is play to get paid) writing in this thread, filled with people who seriously consider red colour being just overall better colour than green, and that we live in a flat earth.

I don't claim it, I state it because I have proof (unlike you).

Part of game design is a win condition, for MMORPGS these are multivalent things based not only on the game itself but also on the perceived value of these win conditions by players (more difficult things are more prestigious generally).

If it is a possibility to reach one of these win-conditions by spending a real life currency, people with enough disposable income will be able to create for themselves an advantage over those who can't. This is Pay 2 Win.

"If it is a possibility to reach of one of these win-conditions". Newsflash, money get you anything. Any. Thing. Yea boiii even that street fighter pro player who makes YOUR profile look like YOU did it, even tho you paid that guy to did it. Man.. Do you realize that if your win conditions are these, every game, and pretty much everything in the world is pay to win?
(Well I agree that wayyyy to much things are pay to win in real life, but that's a different thing. Don't just take me for some blizzfanboy who defends a multibillion company whose game has been going downhill for the past 15 years despite the fact that they grow up more and more every day and year)

I'm perfectly aware of the difference between a fact and an opinion but you're seeming to have trouble with these easy concepts.
the individual player doesn't matter, there are many players playing P2W games that never pay and still reach the ultimate win condition. Many of these games are free 2 play as well. A great example is world of tanks a P2W game that just like wow allows everyone to farm anything given enough time. Many other P2W games provide a level of power that can't be achieved without paying. These are all still P2W games yet just like with most things in life they exist on a spectrum. Some are purely P2W and some like WoW are more complicated.
Yes thats a clear P2W element, but wow also has many clear P2W elements.

What kind of times you need in wow? Are you talking about the boost? 1-60? That was something like 12 hours. That thing is the closest of being pay to win, but like said before, when you play this game called world of warcraft and type /played, you get some pretty huge numbers. You HAVE to take these in consideration when you make claims like that. What is 8 hours when you have played your character for 400 days straight? That is 8 hours out of 9600 hours, if this is pay to win, it's like the cutest and fuzziest little ittywitty pay to win I have ever seen. It's like a bumblebee, I don't want too close but I don't really mind at all it's there.

What does world of tanks btw sell? I haven't played it but I'm very interested to hear. And what kind of times are we talking about here, how long you need to play to unlock that bestest tank with bestest cannonballs? A year 8 hours a day? 10 years? Give me answers! x)

[rhorle]

And many other ways to do that. And those prices for the mounts are as high as i remember.

So mounts are everything? What mounts did you look at?

[rhorle]

dont make questions just for the sake of doing it. You know crystal clear what are we talking about here. Read the top post i did. P2W definition.

Huh? You literally didn't say what mounts still are as expensive as when you last played the game. So no one knows what you are talking about except for yourself. The value of items in the game are not because of tokens. Their value is independent of them. KSM/CE and other boost runs seem to be independent of token prices as well. They are usually an amount based on competition rather then how much gold one token is.

[Nnyco]

Saving Time = Winning.

Get to max level and enjoy the endgame content that is the main goal of all WoW players.

Boost (USD cost) = P2W
Tokens (USD cost) = Gold ingame = P2w

If endgame is the goal and a boost puts you at the very start of it, how do you win exactly?