The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
Thrall
http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power
Good morning, so we're now at the following within the ToS...
... It is direct P2W to purchase a boost from the shop.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase a token from the shop.
... It is indirect P2W to sell a token from the shop.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase a token from the auction house.
... It is indirect P2W to convert a token from the auction.
... It is indirect P2W to receive gold that has been generated from the sales of a token via the sale of a different item.
... It is indirect P2W to use the token to buy game-time, thus forcing your P2W opinion on people who wish to enjoy a game.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase a service with a converted token.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase a product with a converted token.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase a player-operated service with gold from the token sale, or gold acquired from the sale of another item bought with token gold.
... It is indirect P2W to not use a credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase an item from the shop with your credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
... It is indirect P2W to purchase 60-day game-time with credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
... It is not P2W to purchase a service from the shop, unless you have purchased a token, and converted it to Battle.net Currency, then it is indirect P2W.
... It is not P2W to subscribe to World of Warcraft since it is a service.
So, after this tiresome discussion, the topic as currently concluded to have been P2W since October 2006, and since then has infected everyone, and apparently according to some, everyone who has done any form of trading has supported P2W even if they do not claim so, meaning the people who claim this, has been supporting P2W themselves by logging in.
With this notion, the token is also the most inclusive mechanic Blizzard has included since people have the freedom to either pay the game with real money currency or with in-game currency. So you could say, inclusion is winning, so P2W too.
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
This is a false equivalency, "this notion" has no relevancy with inclusivity at all. Only people who are already playing world of warcraft have a use for tokens and boosts. they're already included. them engaging in these P2W schemes does in no way shape or form change the inclusivity. Also people who pay for their game time with gold had to have paid for their first month minimally. You cannot start this game F2P and then continue it by farming gold. (there is a gold cap on F2P accounts that's lower then the token price)
Last edited by P for Pancetta; 2021-06-10 at 11:56 AM.
The list is literally built up of statements recently made or developed within the discussion of this thread where statements such as using the token to play the game was P2W, and using currency coming from a sale of the token, was P2W, and so on.
As well, direct P2W means Blizzard gives you the advantage/benefit/power/whatever - indirect means you take your token, and trade it for gold and use it on something else - and someone then made the follow-up, that it is Pay2Win to receive that gold in a trade or service.
Last edited by Lochton; 2021-06-10 at 11:57 AM.
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
I suppose it maybe depends on what the “win” is then? I know I raid mythic not for powerful gear but for transmog (as well as the sense of cooperating, something WoW seems to have lost with a shift to competitive but that’s a different topic). Like if my CM gear and CM weapons, alongside with MT weapons went on the store I would be pissed. Getting that gear for transmog was my win, and if someone can just buy that, to me that is the P2W. Maybe I am just moving the goal posts? But that’s the way I see it.
Who cares if that's what people have said? doesn't make them right. Nor do these unfounded opinions prove that you are right, and neither do they disprove the P2W schemes present in WoW.
The buying of gold is already a direct P2W, even if you turn it all into grey items and delete them you still engaged in a direct P2W scheme.
I did not say I was right, it was an overview of the discussions developed.
In my own book, boost is direct P2W (though minor) and the token would be at a stretch, indirect P2W (as it was brought in about 50 pages ago in the thread, else, it wouldn't have been P2W at all, unless we used the 'indirect' term) but opens up to way too many variables.
Literally, the main reason I joined in this discussion, but I knew some would be in an uproar of the token, and reminiscence of the 'old days' yet it was P2W there too, except from launch in 2004, to September 2006.
The token is not direct P2W, if you purchased your gold directly from Blizzard it would be direct. All you purchase is tradeable game-time.
The only thing I know I'm right about is if the token is a form of P2W, then the tradeable TCG loot is as well.
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Nah, if we stay within the ToS, it was P2W since October 2006.
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
The token is direct P2W your opinion is irrelevant.
The TCG lootcards are more complicated, Tcg cardpacks did not guarantee a lootcard. It's not P2W but it is a form of gambling. Peer reviewed research has shown a clear correlation between spending patterns on booster style games and problematic gambling behavior
Last edited by P for Pancetta; 2021-06-10 at 12:35 PM.
Sure it does. The currency and the system for that currency matter. If gold was given out in a trickle and primary gained by micro transaction then it would be pay to win. If it was sourced by Blizzard it would be closer to pay to win. If the win was coming from Blizzard it would be pay to win.
As it is the win comes from players after using a normal in-game currency. It doesn't matter the source of that currency as we all pay at some point in order to get gold. Because of the subscription price right? If the subscription price has not made the game pay to win then obviously indirect links to real money are not relevant.
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"I also told you that I can't estimate the times but told you that I can sometimes clear a zone of Anima quests before my HS is off cool down"
"It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster."
I answered it. I just didn't give the answer you and him were apparently looking for. My estimate of up to 2,500 is not wrong. You can get 1,500 to 2,500 so when talking about ranges you include the low end and the top end. Right? Both you and him are looking for any little detail so you can shout at the top of your lungs how wrong it is. When it still doesn't change that there is a relatively easy way to get at least 150k a week.
Is it practical for everyone? Nope. But that wasn't the original question was it? Let me guess you don't even know the original question right? Why didn't you attack the other poster for not answer questions as well? Weird right?
Have you played the game recently to time how long it takes to do a calling? You don't need to be a raider in order to do World Quests quick. World Content gear tops off at 194 with Covenant gear at 196. It is extremely easy to gear alts to out gear world content. 190 is not very under geared for world content. You clearly have not played the game recently at all if you think that is the case. I also never said it was casual. I said after set up it is relatively easy to do a calling which it objectively is. 3 chests or rares is easy. 4 to 5 world quests is easy. Two floors of Torghast is easy (layer 1). All of the callings are easy.
If you struggle, even at 190 gear, to finish any calling then the problem is skill level of the player and not the game.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
I'm saying the token is not direct P2W and your opinion is irrelevant. See...?
Why do you think you are right and others are wrong when we are discussion opinions? (Did you train with @TheRevenantHero)
Apparently there is no correct widely accepted answer to this because P2W is (seems to be) a very subjective topic, depends how everyone sees it as everyone has a different view of what "win" means.
There used to be quite a short answer to it but now everyone and their dog knows better...
“There is no right or wrong, only consequences.”
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So, game-time is direct P2W, is what you are saying? You aren't getting gold directly from Blizzard, but from a player, so indirect.
It is gambling, and if you won a tradeable item, you could take it to the game, and get gold for it, so indirect P2W.
Is the item approved by Blizzard? Yes.
Is the item designed and generated by Blizzard? Yes.
Is the item produced by Blizzard? No, it is commissioned to another company.
Is the item able to be purchased with real money currency? Yes.
Is the item subject to gambling? Yes.
Is the item able to be claimed in-game? Yes.
Is the item able to be traded in-game? Yes, some are made with the intention to be traded, not all.
Is the item able to be sold for gold in-game? Yes
So, with more steps, is the TCG BoE item a product approved by Blizzard with the ability to be sold by a person who paid real money currency to earn gold? Yes.
So, with fewer steps, is the Token item a product approved by Blizzard with the ability to be sold by a person who paid real money currency to earn gold? Yes.
Or is it the steps that do not make it P2W? Because, a person can legally, without breaking ToS, make more steps to handle a token.
The sheer fact that it is gambling, and still gives you an advantage in-game if you win makes it much worse than a token.
Last edited by Lochton; 2021-06-10 at 03:08 PM. Reason: Fixed tagging
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
Because we invent words to mean certain things, P2W is a business model, with a specific meaning. wow uses this business model as a part of their game. We're not talking about religion here or fiction. We're not discussing opinions we're discussing a common business model in video game design.
There is a correct widely accepter answer to what P2W is. The reason people disagree has nothing to do with fact but feeling, evident by the fact that the only evidence deniers have posted so are anecdotes (that disprove their point).
Now you come in here and deliver 0 facts and instantly start attacking me personally. and then reassert your fiction by reposting an already debunked opinion.
The definition of the word win has also been debunked, pay2win is about creating an unfair advantage. win-conditions are personal so even the smallest unfair advantages can attributed to this description yet.
You're arguing like religious lunatic about existence of god (employing the same strawman's and circular reasoning) about something that actually provably exists, can be quantified and measured and studied because we've defined it.
Your smiles should be crying.
Win conditions are not personal. Those are defined by the game you are playing. A person can create their own conditions but that doesn't change those set forth by the game. The same is true for Pay to Win. The win portion has a definition that is independent of personal goals.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."