Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Jester Joe]

No it isn't if you are still arguing that a levels are not buying power. That is part of the problem. The definition is clear but the way everyone applies it is subjective. A level skip is buying power in wow even if it doesn't bring you to end-game relevant levels. It is still an advantage over leveling it manually. Oh right you actually see a level boost as a disadvantage.

Just because you and a few others want to twist the definition to fit your needs doesn't mean it isn't clear.

[rhorle]

Just because you and a few others want to twist the definition to fit your needs doesn't mean it isn't clear.

But we are not twisting the definition to fit. The definition states nothing about relevancy of the advantage. Only that an advantage, of power, is being bought. The hilarious thing about your comment is that you are actually twisting it so levels do not fit. Lol.

[Lochton]

Paying other players gold in game for them to boost you through Dungeons/Raids (so you can get your items/achievements) has always happened since Vanilla.
Even if you pay to be carried, you might not get the items you want because the drops are random, not controlled by the players therefore your "win" is not guaranteed.

Not everyone has friends to run mythics with or like to be part of a particular sort of guild in order to be able to do this. For some people is not possible to be online at a specified time on a certain day in order to raid. No issue here whatsoever.

How come it wasn't classed as P2W until the Token was introduced?

I got gold in game, farmed by myself and bought 2 tokens off AH which I exchanged for game time. Where's the P2W? What have I won over who?

I also bought a mount from the in-game shop because I really liked it. It goes at the same speed as any other mount in game, it just looks different - pure cosmetic.

I have never paid other players in game to boost me through anything... where's the P2W? What am I doing wrong?!

Trying to point out that just because you are able to get gold easily, it doesn't automatically mean you win over any other player; what you do with it is a choice and does not change the definition of the services provided by that game's developers.

People's counter on the boosting is the excuse of "indirect P2W" and anything purchased with the gold from a token sale, or earned with the gold from the sale, no matter how far out, is P2W to some.

You can't be serious on this... it is not even remotely the same thing, comparing Collector Editions with in game gear that gives you extra power.

Collector Edition versions of various games have been available for years; I have all the boxes from all the Guild Wars expansions as CE, they contain various extras like art books, sound track, posters and occasional special in game purely cosmetic items. It has absolutely nothing to do with P2W, does not provide me with any extra advantages in game against any other player, it was never considered that and everyone and their dog (used to) agree with that.
This is pure jealousy that you don't have what other people have simply because you did not pay for it.
You have a Nissan Micra but look at the guy driving a Lamborghini and say "that bastard, it's so unfair I don't have a Lambo as well".

According to some in this thread, that is apparently "visual advantage"

[TidalConflux]

Im pretty sure that this thread is actually doing more harm than good by bastardizing the definition of "pay to win" by trying to morph it into whatever fits the argument.

[Stardrift]

It doesn't matter to the actual point. I have never once stated it won't take time to get the process set up. I don't know how long it takes to gear to 190 but I know it doesn't take that long. I answer the question. Again you don't like the answer so you ignore the answer and cry about how it wasn't answered.

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You are not spending money on power though. You are spending gold on power. So it isn't pay to win according to the definition you just gave.

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You are paying a player are essentially paying a player $15 for the gold they spent farming for in game. You are buying gold. What you do with that gold is irrelevant to how you got the gold. Wealthy players always have an advantage over those that are poor. Who do you think supplies the gold for tokens? Wealthy players. That still doesn't make it pay to win just because someone makes use of having gold.

The person that supplies the gold for a token can just as easily buy a carry with that gold. They choose the $15 gift card as a better option.

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I haven't been proven wrong at all. Or moved any goal posts. I have always been talking about the gold earned from callings. My math hasn't actually been proven wrong and the one person to try to claim it was wrong did their math incorrectly. It is why you and others shifted the goal posts to 200k, to time to level to 60, to time to gear up, to time for a calling, to repetition is makes easy things hard, and everything else you keep trying to use.

The fact you even bring slavery into this shows how dishonest you are and how you have a weird need to villify something you don't agree with. Choosing to do something is never slavery. An optional way to get the gold that was originally stated is not slavery. A person asked how it was possible. I proved one way it was possible and instead of accepting the possibility it is meet with "Lol thats slavery" and other ignorance.

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No it isn't if you are still arguing that a levels are not buying power. That is part of the problem. The definition is clear but the way everyone applies it is subjective. A level skip is buying power in wow even if it doesn't bring you to end-game relevant levels. It is still an advantage over leveling it manually. Oh right you actually see a level boost as a disadvantage.

I'm spending money on a currency to purchase power. P2W.

[TidalConflux]

I'm spending money on a currency to purchase power. P2W.

I agree, remove gear from the game. /s

[Jester Joe]

But we are not twisting the definition to fit. The definition states nothing about relevancy of the advantage. Only that an advantage, of power, is being bought. The hilarious thing about your comment is that you are actually twisting it so levels do not fit. Lol.

Except when it comes to WoW, there's barely any difference between being level 1 or level 50.
You can argue until you're blue in the face all you want, but WoW has always been designed around the end game, with maybe the exception of Vanilla.
And the fact is, Blizzard has bundled in multiple boosts along the way with expansions. So it is something everyone's had access to at this point, extra boosts only serve to give a person more characters to play.

On top of that, every content patch to an expansion is based around being max level. Every new raid, dungeon, etc, max level.

But you think a level boost is "P2W", while being able to straight up buy gold isn't. When you can use gold to get actual character power, through gear. A level 1 and a level 50 might as well be the same thing in regards to WoW's design.

[rhorle]

I'm spending money on a currency to purchase power. P2W.

You spend money on the currency. What you do with the currency is not related to how you got that currency. Gold isn't a currency just created for being bought with money. Pokemongo has a currency like that where you primarily get it from buying it and are limited to 50 coins a day for free (if you defend a gym for long enough). That would be an instance of pay to win from buying the currency.

That isn't the case for wow due to how gold works.

[TidalConflux]

You spend money on the currency. What you do with the currency is not related to how you got that currency. Gold isn't a currency just created for being bought with money. Pokemongo has a currency like that where you primarily get it from buying it and are limited to 50 coins a day for free (if you defend a gym for long enough). That would be an instance of pay to win from buying the currency.

That isn't the case for wow due to how gold works.

I mean -- either he's advocating for gear to be removed from the game or for gold to be removed from the game at this point.

[rhorle]

Except when it comes to WoW, there's barely any difference between being level 1 or level 50.

Doesn't matter. The definition of pay to win is clear. Stop twisting it and ignoring it when it won't match up with your personal views. Levels are undeniably power related in WoW. A level 15 is more powerful then a level 1. A level 30 is more powerful then a level 20. Buying gold isn't pay to win because you win nothing from just having gold and it isn't being bought from Blizzard.

A level skip is being bought directly from Blizzard for money. That is pay to win. A token is buying gold from a player. What you do with that gold is up to you but it confers no inherent win.

[Jester Joe]

Doesn't matter. The definition of pay to win is clear. Stop twisting it and ignoring it when it won't match up with your personal views. Levels are undeniably power related in WoW. A level 15 is more powerful then a level 1. A level 30 is more powerful then a level 20. Buying gold isn't pay to win because you win nothing from just having gold and it isn't being bought from Blizzard.

A level skip is being bought directly from Blizzard for money. That is pay to win. A token is buying gold from a player. What you do with that gold is up to you but it confers no inherent win.

Levels are irrelevant. No one is getting gladiator status at level 50 when it's old content.
No one is getting CE.

THAT is what would be considered "winning" in WoW if there is anything close. Completing current content. At whatever level you consider relevant to yourself, even if that's AotC or just normal/1600 rating.

[rhorle]

Levels are irrelevant. No one is getting gladiator status at level 50 when it's old content.
No one is getting CE. THAT is what would be considered "winning" in WoW if there is anything close. Completing current content. At whatever level you consider relevant to yourself, even if that's AotC or just normal/1600 rating.

Tell me in your clear definition of Pay to Win where does it talk about relevancy? If relevance is subjective and dependent on the individual then you just included level skips as pay to win.

[Jester Joe]

Tell me in your clear definition of Pay to Win where does it talk about relevancy? If relevance is subjective and dependent on the individual then you just included level skips as pay to win.

Nowhere did I say it was "subjective and dependent on the individual". I said based on WoW itself.

A level 50 might as well be a level 1. They can't do anything in regards to end game, which is what would be considered "winning" in WoW in pretty much all regards. Even for pet battling, you'd have to be max level to traverse all of the Shadowlands and have access to the pet battle world quests.

[rhorle]

Nowhere did I say it was "subjective and dependent on the individual". I said based on WoW itself.

A level 50 might as well be a level 1. They can't do anything in regards to end game, which is what would be considered "winning" in WoW in pretty much all regards. Even for pet battling, you'd have to be max level to traverse all of the Shadowlands and have access to the pet battle world quests.

At whatever level you consider relevant to yourself, even if that's AotC or just normal/1600 rating.

So relevant to yourself is not subjective? Based on WoW itself levels are a form of power. Skipping those levels is an advantage even if small. Pay to win does not require large or relevant power gains. If it did then the definition of pay to win wouldn't be as clear as you earlier claimed.

A level 50 person is no where the same as level 1. Level 50 gets you to current content. Level 50 gets you power even if it isn't relevant. You still gain an advantage over other players.

[Jester Joe]

So relevant to yourself is not subjective? Based on WoW itself levels are a form of power. Skipping those levels is an advantage even if small. Pay to win does not require large or relevant power gains. If it did then the definition of pay to win wouldn't be as clear as you earlier claimed.

A level 50 person is no where the same as level 1. Level 50 gets you to current content. Level 50 gets you power even if it isn't relevant. You still gain an advantage over other players.

I never said it was relevant to the individual what's considered P2W.

Stop twisting words to fit your needs. I very very VERY, and I cannot stress this enough, VERY clearly was talking about difficulty level in regards to raiding/PvP.
So to turn around and go "YOU SAID RELEVANT TO YOURSELF" while talking about something that ISN'T PvP or raiding is just silly.

[rhorle]

Stop twisting words to fit your needs. I very very VERY, and I cannot stress this enough, VERY clearly was talking about difficulty level in regards to raiding/PvP.So to turn around and go "YOU SAID RELEVANT TO YOURSELF" while talking about something that ISN'T PvP or raiding is just silly.

I didn't twist your words. You literally said at whatever level you considered relevant to yourself. So now you can only win in PvP or Raiding? You keep changing the definition of Pay to Win to fit your narrow personal view. Weird right? You can't even raid if you aren't level 60 which means levels are relevant to you changed definition.

[Jester Joe]

I didn't twist your words. You literally said at whatever level you considered relevant to yourself. So now you can only win in PvP or Raiding? You keep changing the definition of Pay to Win to fit your narrow personal view. Weird right? You can't even raid if you aren't level 60 which means levels are relevant to you changed definition.

I am literally telling you that you are twisting my words. Like, there isn't arguing to be had about this. If someone tells you "hey this is what I said, and this is what I meant", you don't go "WELL ACTUALLY YOU MEANT THIS!".

Which is what you're trying to do right now. I repeat again, if you try to interpret what someone means, and they tell you you're wrong about what they're saying and what they mean, that's the end of it. It's literally impossible for you to tell someone else their intentions.

[Vampyrr]

I'm purchasing currency for real life cash, and then I'm spending that currency on power.

P2W. /Thread

But you arent getting the power directly from blizzard. You are getting it from people. And if they decided they dont want gold to do carries and stop then all you have is gold and no power. Not P2W /thread

[rhorle]

I am literally telling you that you are twisting my words. Like, there isn't arguing to be had about this. If someone tells you "hey this is what I said, and this is what I meant", you don't go "WELL ACTUALLY YOU MEANT THIS!". Which is what you're trying to do right now. I repeat again, if you try to interpret what someone means, and they tell you you're wrong about what they're saying and what they mean, that's the end of it. It's literally impossible for you to tell someone else their intentions.

So you've never heard of a lie? Just because someone says something doesn't mean that is actually what is happening. I am not twisting your words. I am taking you at the face value of your words. If you meant something else then you were not clear.

[Jester Joe]

So you've never heard of a lie? Just because someone says something doesn't mean that is actually what is happening. I am not twisting your words. I am taking you at the face value of your words. If you meant something else then you were not clear.

I was very clear. I even repeated it and you still went on about not twisting my words.
I said "at whatever level you consider relevant to yourself" while talking about specifically raids and PvP. Nothing else.

You came back with a broad brush of "If relevance is subjective and dependent on the individual" for the overall topic of "P2W". Which wasn't what I was referring to when I said "relevant to yourself". I was specifically talking about challenging content and whatever the limit is that the player picks for themselves in that regard, because WoW is designed that the end game is either raiding or PvP. That IS what it is designed around, and while it supports other ways of playing, that doesn't mean the game is designed around them.

You took something I said in regards to one specific aspect and tried to apply it to other aspects on a larger scale. Hence, twisting.

Edit - end game can be considered designed around M+ too, but that's neither here nor there, nor does it change the overall situation.