Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[arkanon]

By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".

No, its them saying "its ok to purchase these products from us, but 3rd party sites are not ok".

[TheRevenantHero]

That is a very dubious statement, making it legal has arguably made a bad situation worse. Trying to make out Blizzard are trying to do it for the good of the game would have more credibility if they didn’t profit from it. Boosts for example should be free, so everyone can use them. By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".

Blizzard is saying "Third party sites are against the ToS because they get the money instead of us. But you're fine if you throw the money at us instead."

[Lochton]

That is a very dubious statement, making it legal has arguably made a bad situation worse. Trying to make out Blizzard are trying to do it for the good of the game would have more credibility if they didn’t profit from it.

So, Blizzard strangling the illegal market (ToS breaking) by offering players security and support is what makes it all bad? Dude, the situation was a firepit before the token. The shit had ALREADY hit the fence, and Blizzard stepped in to make it a common man service and with it, offered safety. The token gives 3 things and access to a third. One person gets gold from another, the other person gets game-time or credit, and with the credit, the ability to enjoy the options of the game.

Before the token, it was, order gold from a third party seller with the option of, supporting stolen accounts, supporting scamming, supporting botting, or supporting people working at slave labor rates. So what with a fucking 5 dollar extra? You aren't forced to? It is not a necessary service to use? As stated before, I'd rather the token was in-game, buy game-time with gold, but that just makes it a gold sink.

Boosts for example should be free, so everyone can use them. By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".

Boosts shouldn't be free. By selling them, they are offering you a shortcut through old content, nothing more, the price is as it is to also discourage people from purchasing it. You are buying the catch-up. You are not catching up to current content, you are just entry-level as anyone else entering the new content. It is not necessary to use. You aren't forced to use it. Nor do you gain much from using it other than what? 5-8 hours casual leveling?

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Blizzard is saying "Third party sites are against the ToS because they get the money instead of us. But you're fine if you throw the money at us instead."

Ah yes, and guess where people go whining after third-party sites have scammed them, or made them part of a gold-selling job. Oh yeah, the forums and Blizzard support. There is a reason third-party sites are against the ToS, and it isn't just for the sake of money.

[TheRevenantHero]

So, Blizzard strangling the illegal market (ToS breaking) by offering players security and support is what makes it all bad? Dude, the situation was a firepit before the token. The shit had ALREADY hit the fence, and Blizzard stepped in to make it a common man service and with it, offered safety. The token gives 3 things and access to a third. One person gets gold from another, the other person gets game-time or credit, and with the credit, the ability to enjoy the options of the game.

Before the token, it was, order gold from a third party seller with the option of, supporting stolen accounts, supporting scamming, supporting botting, or supporting people working at slave labor rates. So what with a fucking 5 dollar extra? You aren't forced to? It is not a necessary service to use? As stated before, I'd rather the token was in-game, buy game-time with gold, but that just makes it a gold sink.


Boosts shouldn't be free. By selling them, they are offering you a shortcut through old content, nothing more, the price is as it is to also discourage people from purchasing it. You are buying the catch-up. You are not catching up to current content, you are just entry-level as anyone else entering the new content. It is not necessary to use. You aren't forced to use it. Nor do you gain much from using it other than what? 5-8 hours casual leveling?

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Ah yes, and guess where people go whining after third-party sites have scammed them, or made them part of a gold-selling job. Oh yeah, the forums and Blizzard support. There is a reason third-party sites are against the ToS, and it isn't just for the sake of money.

That's fair but I feel like the money aspect is definitely a big factor too.

[Lochton]

No, its them saying "its ok to purchase these products from us, but 3rd party sites are not ok".

Which is completely fine. I mean, their systems, their products. Don't like the products, then don't buy them. It is common in business like so.

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That's fair but I feel like the money aspect is definitely a big factor too.

Of course, it is. Blizzard could sell the fans, security! Blizzard could see the outcome of many cases, the state of many tickets and forums and think - we can give them what they want, but with added security but instead of sinking to the point of other games of selling the currency people crave, we make it a market. We make people trade with other people, so both are winners. Joe gets his gold, and Jill gets her game-time/credit.

And all it cost was the loss of business for third-party sellers. Reduced scamming. Reduced hacking (to an extent, some people still don't secure their accounts enough). Reduced support cases. Reduced traffic about the topic. And all that cost them 5 dollars per transaction. And instead of making 1 player the winner and another the possible loser, two players get what they seek/need.

[doodle90]

Its really weird so many people are confused about such a simple concept of what pay to win means.

Pay to Win literally means paying to win...... As in not lose, as in being better than anyone who did not pay. If you can get the exact same stuff without paying then there is no pay to win.
Pay to win would be like ilvl 505 gear is 20 bucks in the store and mythic raid drops max 480 gear and the only way to get 505 gear is to buy it from the store. Pay to win does not mean someone buys gold then pays someone in game with said gold to get 480 gear that they could have just gotten by running the raid without paying gold. Pay to win does not mean buying a level boost when you can just level.
You are not paying to win, you are paying to still be subpar. Because even with the gear from the latest raid you bought with tokens. You will not outdps someone who knows what they are doing. You will not WIN pvp against someone who knows what they are doing. THERE FOR YOU ARE NOT PAYING TO WIN.

[Cuppy]

Its really weird so many people are confused about such a simple concept of what pay to win means.

Pay to Win literally means paying to win...... As in not lose, as in being better than anyone who did not pay. If you can get the exact same stuff without paying then there is no pay to win.
Pay to win would be like ilvl 505 gear is 20 bucks in the store and mythic raid drops max 480 gear and the only way to get 505 gear is to buy it from the store. Pay to win does not mean someone buys gold then pays someone in game with said gold to get 480 gear that they could have just gotten by running the raid without paying gold. Pay to win does not mean buying a level boost when you can just level.
You are not paying to win, you are paying to still be subpar. Because even with the gear from the latest raid you bought with tokens. You will not outdps someone who knows what they are doing. You will not WIN pvp against someone who knows what they are doing. THERE FOR YOU ARE NOT PAYING TO WIN.

Look, if people here could grasp these things this thread would not be over 100 pages long. That same phrase has been said in the first page too, but you know seagulls gonna gull no matter what.

[arkanon]

Which is completely fine. I mean, their systems, their products. Don't like the products, then don't buy them. It is common in business like so.

Just to be clear, yes, I agree 100%. That was the intention of my post, however it may have been lost in translation, so to speak.

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Its really weird so many people are confused about such a simple concept of what pay to win means.

Pay to Win literally means paying to win......

Ironic, considering how completely wrong this statement is. P2W "literally" means using real world money to gain an ADVANTAGE. This is commonly accepted and not even up for debate.

Lets use your "definition" for a moment to explain how entirely ridiculous it is. I log into wow on day 1 of SL release, and make the following purchases:

Level 60 boost
Full mythic raid BiS
Full bis pvp gear
Gold Cap
All mounts
All Pets
All professions maxed out

All for $5,000.

According to you, this does NOT qualify as Pay to Win.

[doodle90]

Tell me on day 1 of release how you are going to get Full mythic BIS from buying? You won't be able to buy anything until people can farm it, by then you are just buying your way to not even equal everyone because drops don't work that way. So this scenario can't even happen in the game. lol Tell me on day one how you can buy full BIS pvp? By the time you can buy BIS pvp from someone carrying you other people will also be geared. So again you are not paying to win. People you would compete with would be on the same gear level as you as well. And you would still lose because obviously you can't get there yourself.

You have ZERO advantage over someone who just plays the game. In the time it took you to BUY those carries, someone else could have JUST PLAYED THE EXACT SAME RAID AS YOU WITHOUT BUYING ANYTHING AND GOT THE SAME EXACT ILVL AS YOU. YOU HAVE NO ADVANTAGE. Even for BoEs on the market board, THEY DONT JUST APPEAR, someone had to FARM THEM. MEANING!!!! By the time they are on the AH someone ALREADY HAS FARMED THE RAID ENOUGH. WHERE THAT PIECE OF GEAR IS NOT AN UPGRADE. Therefore YOU are not PAYING TO WIN.

Paying to Win is using REAL WORLD MONEY, to have an ADVANTAGE over others who DO NOT USE real world money. Using real world money to EXCHANGE for IN GAME CURRENCY EASILY obtainable in game. IS NOT PAYING TO WIN!!! Jeeze. People who afk farmed Garrisons back in the day that have gold cap are on the same level as you. They didn't spend diddly. Do you not get that? and since ilvl resets every patch many people will have the gold to buy these items and NEVER spent real world money.

The scenario you gave is not possible, therefore it is not WoW, therefore WoW is not pay to win. Like come on.

Using your logic every game is pay to win because I can illegally buy an account, or I can pay my toddler to farm gold for me.

[lockybalboa]

How is it not p2w? With gold you can get access to better gear, better progression and scores and get ahead of many people. With better gear you can do more dps and gain access to better guild and get the ball rolling too. With better scores you can get into better M+ groups. With all these you are gaining an advantage and winning for sure. The argument that you have to be world top 10 paying for all these to be considered as winning is stupidly lame. It's like arguing having more money does not gain you an advantage in life in any form over your poorer counterparts because you are not Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos. Fanboys here are hilarious.

[arkanon]

snip

Im guessing you are trying to reply to me? You presented a definition of P2W that stated "pay to win literally means to win". This is completely false, and i presented a hypothetical scenario to you explaining very clearly why this definition is wrong. In that hypothetical scenario a player purchased everything listed, directly from Blizzard, using their credit card, to a cost of $5000. Using your definition, this does not equal pay to win. I used this example to try and explain to you in very simple terms why your definition does not work, and why no one uses that definition. You are just confused, P2W does NOT require "winning".

Go back and read it again, its very, VERY clear and simple. You are driving me up the wall here! which is strange, because you are not driving a vehicle, and there is no wall involved.............interesting, right?

You know when you shoot the moon, you dont actually fire anything at the moon?
You know many, MANY phrases have a meaning that does not perfectly align with the literal meanings of each word used to form that phrase? Its important to me that you know this.

FYI in both of your examples at the bottom, you have breached the rules of the game - account sharing, and purchasing accounts, so you will need to try again there sorry.

[khazmodan]

WoW is only P2W if you suck. You can achieve everything with effort with no extra payment required.

I agree with you on some people but some people are excellent players that are also very willing to cheat to get caught up on gear to either compete or play with friends. I'm not defending these people, I'm simply saying that those people are out there and my old boss would be in that category as somebody that can raid mythic but is also willing to buy gold, top level boe items, or whatever it takes to stay competitive.

The question is; how do you keep these people playing the game but not destroy the pride of achievement of gearing up in high level content for those that are playing honest?

[arkanon]

I agree with you on some people but some people are excellent players that are also very willing to cheat to get caught up on gear to either compete or play with friends. I'm not defending these people, I'm simply saying that those people are out there and my old boss would be in that category as somebody that can raid mythic but is also willing to buy gold, top level boe items, or whatever it takes to stay competitive.

The question is; how do you keep these people playing the game but not destroy the pride of achievement of gearing up in high level content for those that are playing honest?

The real question is, why you call it "cheating"?

[khazmodan]

The real question is, why you call it "cheating"?

If somebody wears a military uniform and they were never in the military...

[arkanon]

If somebody wears a military uniform and they were never in the military...

What on earth are you talking about? First off, you mean like an actor? or a reenactor? Or hobbyist/paintball/airsoft? But far more importantly....................what are you talking about the military for? what on earth does that have to do with "cheating"?

Either i am missing something here, or, this is without a doubt the worst analogy I have seen.

[khazmodan]

What on earth are you talking about? First off, you mean like an actor? or a reenactor? Or hobbyist/paintball/airsoft? But far more importantly....................what are you talking about the military for? what on earth does that have to do with "cheating"?

Either i am missing something here, or, this is without a doubt the worst analogy I have seen.

If you pay for somebody to carry you to Gladiator while you sometimes afk, for the gear, mount and title then that is cheating.

[arkanon]

If you pay for somebody to carry you to Gladiator while you sometimes afk, for the gear, mount and title then that is cheating.

No, it isn't. You might not agree with it, but it absolutely is not cheating. If that person then goes around claiming they earned it themselves, that could come under dishonesty, but it is completely within the rules, and countless people who "earned" their gear were the weakest link and got, to some extent, carried. We have ALL raided with that one person who doesn't really deserve to be there, and performs a difficulty below everyone else, but no gold changes hands, so its "fine". What about someone who goes back and earns the gear for transmog soloing the raid? Are they "cheating" by using it an expansion later?

tldr you are confusing "i don't agree with people who play this way" with "playing this way is cheating", and i still fail to see how your analogy works here at all.

[doodle90]

Im guessing you are trying to reply to me? You presented a definition of P2W that stated "pay to win literally means to win". This is completely false, and i presented a hypothetical scenario to you explaining very clearly why this definition is wrong. In that hypothetical scenario a player purchased everything listed, directly from Blizzard, using their credit card, to a cost of $5000. Using your definition, this does not equal pay to win. I used this example to try and explain to you in very simple terms why your definition does not work, and why no one uses that definition. You are just confused, P2W does NOT require "winning".

Go back and read it again, its very, VERY clear and simple. You are driving me up the wall here! which is strange, because you are not driving a vehicle, and there is no wall involved.............interesting, right?

You know when you shoot the moon, you dont actually fire anything at the moon?
You know many, MANY phrases have a meaning that does not perfectly align with the literal meanings of each word used to form that phrase? Its important to me that you know this.

FYI in both of your examples at the bottom, you have breached the rules of the game - account sharing, and purchasing accounts, so you will need to try again there sorry.

Your hypothetical explanation you gave was someone being able to outgear everyone early right off the bat which would be pay to win because they havent had the ability to do so. Because you could go into pvp with an ilvl of say 505 and everyone has 460 for two weeks. In the actual game this can never happen which is what I so plainly explained to you. The time it takes you to buy wins someone else could just simply win without buying therefore you have zero advantage with money. The only advantage you get is not actually playing the game you pay for. Do you not get that simple concept? Everything you pay for someone else can simply do without paying. How is this hard for you to comprehend. That is not pay to win. Pay to win is PAYING to win. Meaning PAYING for things people CANNOT GET without paying. IE ilvl 540 gear is 20 bucks on the blizzard store but mythic only drops ilvl 480, or ilvl 540 is on the blizzard store a month before it drops in mythic raiding. Not you buying 445 gear when the mythic plus u could have done also drops 445 gear. Not you paying for pvp boosts when someone else can just pvp for the same gear....or even have a friend carry them for free. In WoW using gold to buy crap does not put you AHEAD of other people. It just allows you to be equal with people. For those BoEs to be on the AH someone has to not want them. For someone to carry you they have to already be ahead of you. Do you not get that?

[arkanon]

Your hypothetical explanation you gave was someone being able to outgear everyone early right off the bat which would be pay to win because they havent had the ability to do so. Because you could go into pvp with an ilvl of say 505 and everyone has 460 for two weeks. In the actual game this can never happen which is what I so plainly explained to you. The time it takes you to buy wins someone else could just simply win without buying therefore you have zero advantage with money. The only advantage you get is not actually playing the game you pay for. Do you not get that simple concept? Everything you pay for someone else can simply do without paying. How is this hard for you to comprehend. That is not pay to win. Pay to win is PAYING to win. Meaning PAYING for things people CANNOT GET without paying. IE ilvl 540 gear is 20 bucks on the blizzard store but mythic only drops ilvl 480, or ilvl 540 is on the blizzard store a month before it drops in mythic raiding. Not you buying 445 gear when the mythic plus u could have done also drops 445 gear. Not you paying for pvp boosts when someone else can just pvp for the same gear....or even have a friend carry them for free. In WoW using gold to buy crap does not put you AHEAD of other people. It just allows you to be equal with people. For those BoEs to be on the AH someone has to not want them. For someone to carry you they have to already be ahead of you. Do you not get that?

Great story! Now how does it help a solo raider "win"?

Why has your definition changed so dramatically in 2 posts? Now, not only do you need to "win" but other players cannot have access to the same stuff in game? That wasnt part of your "this is so simple" definition.

[TidalConflux]

I still think people realistically need to decide what is the standard definition of P2W. Because a lot of the arguments I've seen would mean that WoW is P2W even if tokens were not a thing.

If thats the case -- then WoW has always been a P2W game because RMT has existed prior to the token's conception. Legality has never been part of that argument.