Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[rhorle]

You Pay for the Gold with Cash = Pay to Win. It doesn't matter what is behind that. Its a big Pay to Win Scheme. No effort required, just pay in cash and you will get your 190k.

But gold doesn't win you anything. Imagining things you can get on the AH doesn't apply here. Because you said nothing else matters but the cash transaction.

[Marakara]

You talk about mobile games, in which you pay to unlock EnergyX because it's fucking timegated, and character levels that will NEVER exceed the level allowed in-game and thus merely a way to bypass the slow grind of leveling these up yourself - and then have the gall to speak about League of Legends COSMETIC skins?

What a preposterous low effort reply.

There are plenty of mobile games that have rare events that you cannot possibly fully unlock by playing f2p that are designed to sink money into that give characters and gear that is better than the current roster.

I was pointing out that League of Legends is not a P2W game but by your definition you would call it one because you can "skip the grind for champions with $", but go off about your poor reading comprehension lmao

You already have gold, You already have your own collection...you...you. But the rest doesnt, or new players (older player with money and jobs), just pay their way into "your" level, and get everything it took you years to achieve in seconds.

Now, the definition of P2W changed, because business models changed. For Blizzard is the Token/Boost. You pay some cash and you get an unfair advantage over someone who didnt paid for it. That is the point here. That is why people doesnt get it. Its an unfair advantage.

No, they cannot get to my level, I've been playing this game for over a decade and have collections that are unobtainable no matter how much gold you have. Nor do they have the experience to play at whatever level I can play at.

So are friends/guildies giving gold to their new players that are just getting into the game giving them an unfair advantage?

[rhorle]

The Token gives you 190k for doing nothing....nothing at all. 0 Effort. 0 Time invested. And with that much gold you can pay for anything you may be looking for....from players to AH.

It doesn't matter if you invest 0 time or effort because another player was required to invest the time or effort. You can't include the power you buy from players if you are not willing to include the effort it takes to get the gold. You only want to look at one side.

[Marakara]

Can i buy all the pets i need to unlock the "Pet collection" achievement? Yes it can.
Can i buy all the mounts i need from the AH? Yes it can.
Can i buy Armor/Weapons with high item level from the AH? Yes it can.
Can i buy PvE and PvP carries from other players with gold? Yes it can.
Can i buy expensive transmog from the AH, that took other player years to get?. Yes it can.
Can i buy achievements progression from other players with gold? Yes it can.

Because you said nothing else matters but the cash transaction.. Cash + Token = 190k = all that i mention up there....

I can also be gifted any of those for 0 effort by friends who want me to play the game. Why does it matter what me and my friends do in my spare time?? Nothing on that list is something unobtainable w/o gold

[rhorle]

Because you said nothing else matters but the cash transaction.. Cash + Token = 190k = all that i mention up there....

So extra effort is only included when it makes you feel like it? Otherwise it is invalid. Weird right? Pet collection achievement is not a win. Mounts are not a win. Transmog is not a win. Achievements are not a win.

[Darkeon]

I was pointing out that League of Legends is not a P2W game but by your definition you would call it one because you can "skip the grind for champions with $", but go off about your poor reading comprehension lmao

You are the one bringing PURELY cosmetic crap, on a fucking MOBA, to a discussion about P2W. That alone discredits any opinion you might have on the subject.

[Marakara]

You are the one bringing PURELY cosmetic crap, on a fucking MOBA, to a discussion about P2W. That alone discredits any opinion you might have on the subject.

I am talking about how purely cosmetic stuff DOESN'T matter in a p2w model. Just say you can't address my points and take the L

Lucky you!. You have friends. Other people don't and pay for it. No wonder why the Token is such a success that right now its price is going up like crazy.

So are gifts an unfair advantage?? Do you see who ridiculous it is to call Tokens an unfair advantage when it's just an easily traded good?

[kaminaris]

Then WoW has been pay-to-win prior to tokens/boosts -- because RMT was always a blight. Again, your argument doesnt talk about legality or consequence -- only you pay money to get X or the pathway to X. When you try to make the definition as vague as possible, any game that has a player economy would technically be P2W because of a player-based market and its offerings.

This is why games with active player-based economies have RMT. The only way to solve that issue is to remove a player-based economy.

Pretty much this, thinking that token magically changed it is pure delusion. If you think wow is now pay to win, then it has always been p2w.

[kaminaris]

Its not a win to you. But for other people is....
Win = To what ever people consider a "progress" inside the game.

Example: Get all the Mist of Pandaria pets from the AH, without even going to the raid to farm them. Just get the token, the gold and buy all what you need. Not rocket science.

That is "your" opinion on what is a win. For someone else, is awesome having a "plate-kini". because it looks sexy on my female character, but sadly i cost tons of gold....That is were your Token pal is able to help you get it.

Or you can just skip the token and straight up buy it from 3rd party website OR legally registered companies that sells those things. Why even bother converting currency.

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You get a progress without 0 effort. Back in the old days, getting those pets, transmog, mounts, etc.....was time consuming. Now, just get the token, your 190k and buy them in the AH or from other player. WIN!.

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Define Pay to Win for you....
Note:Before the Token/Boost, there was no "real cash" for "unfair advantage" thing....or I'm missing something?

Of course there was plenty of real cash transactions, even whole accounts with unobtainable stuff were sold. Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didnt exist.

Funny thing is, RMT is still blooming, 3rd party gold is cheaper than token and plenty of people are buying it.

[Marakara]

You get a progress without 0 effort. Back in the old days, getting those pets, transmog, mounts, etc.....was time consuming. Now, just get the token, your 190k and buy them in the AH or from other player. WIN!.

Pretty convenient that your definition of WIN can encompass any area of gameplay. I don't see anyone complaining about how other players can get transmogs on the forums by buying gold tokens, and if they were I'd laugh at them for how petty they're being over cosmetic stuff. Also, that quote was directed at the other dude for failing to engage with my post over just mentioning cosmetics in another game

[kaminaris]

That is not fair for your pal Blizzard. He wants the Real Money for itself. But tell me....Why did you said "WoW has always been P2W"? Back before Token/Boosts, how it was P2W?

Who cares who sells it. Lol, you think people care? They buy boosts from whoever they want.
They pay money, they get the "advantage" (according to you).

Same shit.

[Marakara]

A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.

So transmogs are gameplay advantage? Again, you have a wild definition of "winning". Do I win Tekken 7 for preordering and getting a unique costume?

[kaminaris]

Because that is the definition of Pay To win....that is why is important who sells it.
If Blizzard sells it is Pay to Win.
If back then a shady dealer used to sell it, it was just illegal black market crap.

Pay to Win is a model that is promoted by the company that made the game....Please, read more.

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Yep, transmog, pets, mounts, collections, achievements, etc. Anything that require an effort to earn it, that requires you to play the game (like everyone else)....and by skipping that with using "Real Money" is a Pay to Win model.

Blizzard Store items that are sold by money and that is the only way to get them, are not pay to win.

No lol, who cares, I pay money i get the "advantage". Nobody gives a flying fuck who sells it.

[Marakara]

Blizzard Store items that are sold by money and that is the only way to get them, are not pay to win.

HOW ARE THE ITEMS LITERALLY ONLY OBTAINABLE WITH MONEY NOT PAY TO WIN AND EVERYTHING ELSE IS you gotta be trolling jfc

[rhorle]

That is "your" opinion on what is a win. For someone else, is awesome having a "plate-kini". because it looks sexy on my female character, but sadly i cost tons of gold....That is were your Token pal is able to help you get it.

So now the win has nothing to do with power. It is weird how the definition of what a win is changes based on the argument you are trying to make in the moment. The win as part of pay to win has never been the individuals personal beliefs. If that was the case then nothing can ever be pay to win because all it takes is one person to not see it that way for it to be impossible to be that way.

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A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.

Bolding it doesn't suddenly make your definition accurate. Mounts, transmog, and other cosmetics are not game play advantages. The advantages you've outlined that gold gives can be equaled with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through gameplay. Again the very definition you keep using doesn't apply to the arguments you keep trying to use it for.

Weird right?

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Blizzard Store items that are sold by money and that is the only way to get them, are not pay to win.

According to your definition it would be paying to win. As money=item=win. Why do you change the rules and ignore your own logic?

[kaminaris]

You pay Cash, You get Gold, You win. Simple as that. You got something with 0 effort and 0 time consumption.

You pay cash you win. Even simpler, You got something with 0 effort and EVEN LESS than zero time consumption (because if trading token takes "0 time", paying directly takes even less)

[Kraenen]

Getting through the game is "winning" to some extent (though the concept is more open).

[MrFawlty]

Boosts shouldn't be free. By selling them, they are offering you a shortcut through old content, nothing more, the price is as it is to also discourage people from purchasing it. You are buying the catch-up. You are not catching up to current content, you are just entry-level as anyone else entering the new content. It is not necessary to use. You aren't forced to use it. Nor do you gain much from using it other than what? 5-8 hours casual leveling?

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A shortcut/catch up which you are not forced to use that should be available to everyone, not just those with more money than braincells. You say that its a harmless catch up and then say people should be discouraged from using it - why is that? If you need to control it, you use a cool down - then its controlled properly rather than being limiting it to someone’s wealth/IQ. In addition by making it free you destroy 3rd party boosters, why pay for something you can get for free by waiting?

You logic is completely flawed.

[TidalConflux]

Is clear you dont understand the concept of Pay to Win.
Explain why you think WoW was P2W before Tokens/Boost....

The definition of pay to win is that you are paying money to get an advantage of others through direct exchange of power or having a pathway to said power much easier, this is the idea that I have received by the people complaining about WoW being P2W. The issue with P2W is that its own definition (because its just an internet term and not something in a dictionary) lacks the roles of legality or consequence into the argument.

This means that pay-2-win can be reflected onto RMT, the non-token kind -- the gold buyers. RMT has always existed and will exist in player-generated economies.

This in turn -- means that regardless of the token existence, WoW will always be P2W because of RMT existing as a possibility and power items/pathways (according to posters) being always available for gold. This means that WoW is inherently pay-2-win regardless.

So either:
1) WoW isnt pay-2-win because of the token but because of the existence of RMT (legal or not) -- thus WoW has always been pay-2-win

OR

2) The definition of pay-2-win doesnt fit in with player-generated economies and the term needs to more specific rather than an all-encompassing definition.

You cannot just go : "Well I didnt see it" -- when RMT clearly existed and was one of the main reasons for the token's creation is kind of a null argument and just moves to share ignorance. For instance, FF14 has a blooming issue with gil trading (RMT) and its widely known but people use that argument when specific content requires large sums of currency.

[epigramx]

Truth is somewhere in the middle. Few people know this anymore but back in the day there was a lot of fraud thriving with people selling gold for real money on shady websites (they still exist but they are not needed anymore by most people since nowadays Blizzard does it for them for most of their basic needs).
I say in the middle because yes: you can win by paying technically but: actually it's not REALLY winning if you pay because the term winning itself for a lot of us meaning winning without paying.