Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Kralljin]

Show me. Or it's just you and a few others saying so. No advantage can be given over ANY player who chooses not to spend a dime, except convenience. Convenience isn't "winning", and is also not giving "advantage". I mean seriously.

Paying Gladiators to play with you and push your PvP Rating certainly does qualify as advantage and is pay to win.

And no philosophical musings over "what is winning" in an MMO changes that, because you literally win games against other players because you play with people that you are paying.

[Nerph-]

yes and they were all illegal hence why they weren't introduced as much as now
i know someone in classic who bought gold to get his mount, and heard of someone who bought boost for T2, but that's it, they were the exception, not the common
now it is the common to get a boost to be able to get to raiding guild, not the reverse, u are expected to get ahead of curve from week 2 at most, and have higher ilvl from raid if u want to pug from week 3, assume u can find a pug in first place (or even if u create one, find ppl who will join)
and seriously the fact that the top classic raiding guild on official server said they leaving classic because the old experience is ruined and they flat out said that now all are about buying and selling boosts and nothing else seal that deal, we talk about ppl who played classic at its release, stayed in private servers for 16 years, played on official only to find it fucked by boosts and leaving it because they are fed (and they probably will be back to private, of course they can't type that officially), what more proof u want?
Ask any old player if they found boost selling 24/7 pre-token era as much as now, i don't claim there was none, heck i admit i did one, but i strongly confirm that they were way less pre-token

That might be your take on it but I disagree. Take arena's back in 2007 for example, boosting was extremely common for gold, and you think everyone got their gold through legitimate ways? If so you're naïve.

Boosting has been rampant in WoW since forever.

[Lochton]

yes and they were all illegal hence why they weren't introduced as much as now
i know someone in classic who bought gold to get his mount, and heard of someone who bought boost for T2, but that's it, they were the exception, not the common
now it is the common to get a boost to be able to get to raiding guild, not the reverse, u are expected to get ahead of curve from week 2 at most, and have higher ilvl from raid if u want to pug from week 3, assume u can find a pug in first place (or even if u create one, find ppl who will join)
and seriously the fact that the top classic raiding guild on official server said they leaving classic because the old experience is ruined and they flat out said that now all are about buying and selling boosts and nothing else seal that deal, we talk about ppl who played classic at its release, stayed in private servers for 16 years, played on official only to find it fucked by boosts and leaving it because they are fed (and they probably will be back to private, of course they can't type that officially), what more proof u want?
Ask any old player if they found boost selling 24/7 pre-token era as much as now, i don't claim there was none, heck i admit i did one, but i strongly confirm that they were way less pre-token

Less visible before token, but there were a lot before token anyways. As an old player from day one, and a raider designated up until mid-Legion, I saw boost advertisements and groups gathering daily, even a few of my old raiders have experienced attempts of "renting" them to help with boosting for gold, or even RMT, luckily they said no. Boosting was 24.7, though, in honestly, the most boosts I saw for sale was during the night/early morning, I take it for less chance to be reported by players. reported a huge chunk myself. They were less visible, but now you have so many people making their own boosting groups that the market is flooded.

The only thing the Token did was to make it safer, easier and accepted to get boosted. The problem lies in the boosting community, who is wanting more, so they'll of course keep theirs running - and some, like Gallywix, fucks it up, but Blizzard does take action on that. We've seen many forum complaints across different forums when Gallywix was taken out, as well as when boost sellers were using a secondary account for the boosting advertisement and taking the payment - and it is a bliss to see them rage every time.

Now, we have two instances of items they could perceive as P2W, the Token and the Boost (Catch-up), which does not really turn the game P2W but they can both be seen as problematic but both are there as a lesser evil to a problem. One helps to handle the flood of RMT gold sales by making it easier and safer, and the other is there to give new players, or rugged veterans, a quicker way to get to the main content. Both offer you an advantage above a brand new player, but then, having played the game for a long time does so too, or have managed to sell on the auction before others (the big BoE sales war (Coming with new raid starts) does give you an advantage too.

But as I've said before, the Token can easily be compared with the TCG (BoE) cards, both items sold with the blessing of Blizzard, both made to be traded for gold even though purchased for real money, both offering a pile of gold in your hand, one is just a bit more safe and controlled, it is game-time for gold, both win. One can play the game, another can get what they want from other players. I can't get myself to compare gold from Token sales to that of currency bought in a store, that can only be used on services made by the company in the first place. For me, the token is minor because it still demands you to take it up with yourself what to use the gold on, and cooperate with other players to get a service (some might need the gold, or some might be from a boosting community). Unlike many obvious P2W games where you buy a buff on the store or buy a currency to buy a buff on a special store.

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That might be your take on it but I disagree. Take arena's back in 2007 for example, boosting was extremely common for gold, and you think everyone got their gold through legitimate ways? If so you're naïve.

Boosting has been rampant in WoW since forever.

Oh lord, don't remind me. Luckily, I wasn't much of an Arena person but yes, the Arena sales too, were horrible.

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You dont have them cheaper. Players do not have enough gold so boost sellers do no waste time boosting becouse time vs gold earn isnt worth the effort.

But you do have them cheaper? There is no Token interaction on Classic, so of course, gold aren't as inflated, and people just try and set a price to make customers interested in a run.

Oh and btw i just did some digging and find out that you are one of the boost sellers. So i am dont talking to you since you are biased as you have agenda when comes to boosting so your opinion on this matter is completly useless.

Excuse me? What "proof" did you find to make you believe that I am a boost seller? Do humor me? Something I've forgotten? I've admitted to offering boosts but not to take payment of the class we're talking about.

[Altariaz]

WoW is not directly p2w.
Indirectly, one can make an argument that WoW has a p2w flavor, which is partly a consequence of the token and boosting culture. There is no single variable that drives the outcomes we see.

[Lollis]

If you pay the right boosters you can be on top of the PVE and PVPers lists so in one way it is...

No. You literally cannot. Boosters get you to their level at the absolute most.

There is nothing at all in WoW that you can get by buying tokens that will put you above everyone else that doesn't. WoW is pay to catchup, at best.

Neverwinter Online: Buy stat stick and ability granting companion pets from the store that are explicitly better than anything any none paying player can farm or craft themselves in a reasonable timeframe (if an equivalent companion pet even exists.) No other players are required.

Star Trek Online: Buy ships and crew members that are explicitly better than anything any none paying player can farm themselves in a reasonable timeframe if at all. No other players are required.

They are pay to win.

[scubi666stacy]

You can get much in this game with money, but I doubt that you can get top gladiator ranks or world first mythic raid kills.
You need skill and TIME (and the possibility to allocate said time in the most convenient manner for the game, not your RL).

[Schmittay]

Paying Gladiators to play with you and push your PvP Rating certainly does qualify as advantage and is pay to win.

And no philosophical musings over "what is winning" in an MMO changes that, because you literally win games against other players because you play with people that you are paying.

Yeh um you realise someone can pay for the same service with gold not bought, right? And if they're paying with real life money, then it's against the rules, and isn't applicable. You need to come up with an example that is exclusive to using your credit card with winning / having an advantage over someone who hasn't. So far not ONE example has been given.

It seems people are confusing the METHOD of getting gold with pay2win, which is boggling my mind right now.

[Kralljin]

Yeh um you realise someone can pay for the same service with gold not bought, right?

It's not like there is a service on the Blizzard store selling you gold, which puts this on its head.

Disregarding that PvP boosts in general are a dubious concept.

which is boggling my mind right now.

The only thing that is mindboggling is how people think that the extra step due to the WoW Token is a game changer, when the input and output are the same.

[Schmittay]

As long as gold farmed can be exchanged for real money the concept is exactly the same. True for every western legal system.

This doesn't even make sense! THINK. What advantage does someone who buys gold have over someone who is gold capped through legitimate means, besides saving the time to farm said gold. I said name ONE example, and you can't! Case in point. Stop conflating two completely different points.

[Kralljin]

This doesn't even make sense! THINK. What advantage does someone who buys gold have over someone who is gold capped through legitimate means, besides saving the time to farm said gold. I said name ONE example, and you can't! Case in point. Stop conflating two completely different points.

"Name one example"
"No, not that one, that doesn't count, because i say so"

Like seriously, unless you are the kind of person that believes nothing is pay to win unless its inaccessible for nonpaying customers - which i believe is utterly hilarious - it is pay to win because a lot of people are not capable of making that much gold themselves.

That's the problem of gold and the WoW Token, buying power with gold was completely legitimate previously because there was no way to acquire to gold for real money without breaking the ToS, now with the WoW Token you can purchase power by purchasing the WoW Token.

[MoanaLisa]

The only thing that is mindboggling is how people think that the extra step due to the WoW Token is a game changer, when the input and output are the same.

Some people distinguish between direct sales of power through store items and indirect access through other systems like gems or tokens.

It's a distinction worth making as Blizzard does not do the first—they aren't selling direct power through their store—and everyone does the second whether they have a subscription system or not. If virtually all MMO's (or other forms of online games) are selling gems/tokens/whatever-you-want-to-call-it through their in-game stores the outrage about Blizzard rings pretty hollow. I just refuse to be so hypocritical to say that Blizzard is any better than anyone else although there are plenty of examples where they are certainly not the worst. This is the gaming world of the 21st century and tilting at windmills that have the word "Blizzard" over the front door is pointless. People that buy tokens don't need anyone here poking into their business.

Mostly these threads are now just proxies for "I hate Blizzard" folk and those that oppose them and as such are equally pointless. They're good for page views I guess.

[Dhrizzle]

Once-upon-a-time there was a quite a few games coming out that were legitimately pay-2-win. They offered in-game advantages that could only be bought using reals cash, two stand out examples being World of Tanks that allowed you to buy special gold ammo with armour penetration and RIFT charging cash to open up item slots for your character. This system was largely rejected by players as a whole and outside a few free-to-play examples (and a lot of mobile shovelware) most advantages you can pay for are just timesavers or for the sake of convenience. WoW is a good example of this, you can get a boost or you can get a few 100k gold but there is nothing that can't be gained through playing the game normally.

However "pay-2-win" has a strong emotional effect for some people and, like a lot of phrases on the internet, it's been diluted and used to apply to a broad range of MTX that people perceive as "bad." Streamers and YouTubers know they'll get more clicks crying about games being "pay to win" rather than "pay to get a convenience or time advantage that can be nullified by someone who can play on a better schedule" and this influences how others discuss the matter.

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Chill. You fail to comprehend the base level problem which is GOLD CAN BE EXCHANGED FOR REAL MONEY. As long as real money enters the equation, having made the money by working to exchange for gold or having farmed gold to exhange for money is SAME THING.

I work and buy gold
I play and buy money

Lets change the sentence:

I work and earn money
I play and earn gold

Now lets see the outcome:

I work and pay for boosts
I play and pay for boosts

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to contact me again, but leave your snarky attitude outside because its not appreciated or welcome.

Did you mean to prove that WoW is not pay-to-win because any advantage of paying real-cash is indistinguishable from what people can do just playing the game?

[loras]

Chill. You fail to comprehend the base level problem which is GOLD CAN BE EXCHANGED FOR REAL MONEY. As long as real money enters the equation, having made the money by working to exchange for gold or having farmed gold to exhange for money is SAME THING.

I work and buy gold
I play and buy money

Lets change the sentence:

I work and earn money
I play and earn gold

Now lets see the outcome:

I work and pay for boosts
I play and pay for boosts

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to contact me again, but leave your snarky attitude outside because its not appreciated or welcome.

This.
Also i would've used "neither" as in "it's neither appreciated nor welcome.".

[Kralljin]

Some people distinguish between direct sales of power through store items and indirect access through other systems like gems or tokens.

As said above, this doesn't change the fact the input from the player and the output remain literally the same.

If virtually all MMO's (or other forms of online games) are selling gems/tokens/whatever-you-want-to-call-it through their in-game stores the outrage about Blizzard rings pretty hollow.

Other forms of online games generally don't come with a monthly sub, either.

So yes, if they are the exception on their business model, then the "the others are doing it" argument doesn't work, as "the others" don't ask me to pay a monthly sub.

[MoanaLisa]

Other forms of online games generally don't come with a monthly sub, either.

Many in the MMO space have always had (and still have) subscription options that give you X amount of store credit every month and other advantages if you sign up for it. It's pretty standard for the major "F2P" MMO's. As you say, the input from the player and output are pretty much the same. You can farm the X or buy the X. Result is pretty much the same.

[Kralljin]

Many in the MMO space have always had (and still have) subscription options that give you X amount of store credit every month and other advantages if you sign up for it. It's pretty standard for the major "F2P" MMO's.

And i believe that on a F2P game completely different standards apply than to a game that is a combination of buy to play, requires a monthly subscription and a cash shop with cosmetics.

After all, WoW is not F2P, it's actually pretty expensive when you realize how much you're paying for it when you are continously subbed + buy every expansion at launch.

[Lochton]

Other forms of online games generally don't come with a monthly sub, either.

So yes, if they are the exception on their business model, then the "the others are doing it" argument doesn't work, as "the others" don't ask me to pay a monthly sub.

With or without subscription does not exclude them from being P2W, or having P2W features. And the option of MMOs with a subscription option, as well as P2W features, or being P2W is there

[MoanaLisa]

And i believe that on a F2P game completely different standards apply than to a game that is a combination of buy to play, requires a monthly subscription and a cash shop with cosmetics.

After all, WoW is not F2P, it's actually pretty expensive when you realize how much you're paying for it when you are continously subbed + buy every expansion at launch.

I don't know that a subscription and total cost is really all that important. Buying power, directly or indirectly, is the same. It's just more costly with subscription games. I'm not really interested in hearing some moralistic argument that it's OK for F2P games to do this and not Blizzard (or the other subscription games—you know their names—that do the same). No one has ever said that a subscription to WoW entitles you to everything in the game. It buys you access. What you do with it after you have it is your business.

On another point: For what it's worth I agree that the game is too costly any more for my definition of play value. For whatever reason the game design is uninteresting and a great example of deck chair moving from one expansion to the next. I would have never imagined the story could be worse than what it was when Afrasiabi was running it but miracles happen. The developers have painted themselves into a corner and seemingly have little interest in risk. So I'm one of those 2 or 3 months per year player now. The game isn't really worth paying-to-win which is one reason why these threads are annoying. I pay a few bucks a year to sightsee and connect with those that still drop by from time to time.

[Kralljin]

With or without subscription does not exclude them from being P2W, or having P2W features. And the option of MMOs with a subscription option, as well as P2W features, or being P2W is there

...Okay?

Where did i say those are mutually exclusive?

I said different standards apply and a subscription based MMO frankly comes off as greedy when they implement P2W features, because they are already getting money from users on a monthly basis.
A F2P MMO does not receive money from users, so they have to get it somehow, if they choose to do with by selling power or a currency that can be used to acquire power, that's not a game i'd play, but if it's F2P, they have to make a living somehow.

It's pretty simple really, when i'm paying nothing, i'm not expecting much, when i'm paying something (especially on a monthly basis), i have some expectations, one of them is that P2W will not included - because every user is already paying.

I don't know that a subscription and total cost is really all that important.

The price of a product certainly does influence my expectations of quality and in the context of this discussion, P2W features are certainly something that comes at the expense of quality.

I'm not really interested in hearing some moralistic argument that it's OK for F2P games to do this and not Blizzard (or the other subscription games—you know their names—that do the same).

As said above, the concept of "I'm not paying anything, so i expect less" / "I'm paying something, so i expect more" seems pretty natural to me and not that morally abstract.

No one has ever said that a subscription to WoW entitles you to everything in the game. It buys you access. What you do with it after you have it is your business.

...yes?

But what does this have to do with my argument?
The problem isn't access, the problem are additional monetization effort (and its consequences) found within the game that already is gated behind a paywall.

I am a strong proponent that a player isn't entitled to seeing everything within the game just by the virtue of being able to log in, how you're using that as a justification of P2W is beyond me.

Frankly, this argument comes more like something an opponent of LFR would say, rather than someone in the defense of the WoW Token.

[MrFrag]

Yes it's P2W as everything in the world. No need to argue or debate on this issue.