Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Ivanstone]

The people who pay get the advantage of having pro players carry them. Sure, they don't get the "real" experience, but when was the last time you met someone who actually admitted to buying carries? The vast majority just pretend they got it all on their own and you'll never know the difference.

Basically the above argument is "Well they didn't get the experience of putting in the work themselves, so they got no advantage". They got all the same gear, achievements, etc. that you did and they can even brag they did it on their own. They got an advantage.

Just because you value the experience more doesn't mean that buying clears hasn't ruined the integrity of the game.

I bought one carry once in the game. My guild wasn’t really running anything and I didn’t want to go join a new guild. And then I broke my elbow in five places and getting AOTC became impossible. Since it was WOD I was drowning in gold from the Adventure table so I bought the AOTC for Hellfire. I don’t really value it because I didn’t earn it like all of my AOTCs. In any case I have no advantage over anyone.

Bragging about your pixels isn’t an advantage. It just means that you used your time to earn real money. Your time spent earning real money might have you got you some nice pixels but it’s not the same thing as actually doing something. I get that some people just like having stuff but the point of a game is to actually play it. I collect a lot of shit in WOW but I still enjoy running around smashing stuff with my shield the most.

Furthermore buying gold, gear and runs has been happening since Vanilla. My original Vanilla guild definitely sold MC and BWL runs and we weren’t that remarkable.

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Using money to buy gear to make your character better is pay to win.

Define “better”. I can’t actually pay for better gear currently. I can pay for pixels but I can’t meaningfully increase my gear score by paying for it and even if I could it wouldn’t turn me into a player that’s can score 2500 in PvP, clear Mythic Sylvanas or do Mythic 25’s.

[Laqweeta]

I bought one carry once in the game. My guild wasn’t really running anything and I didn’t want to go join a new guild. And then I broke my elbow in five places and getting AOTC became impossible. Since it was WOD I was drowning in gold from the Adventure table so I bought the AOTC for Hellfire. I don’t really value it because I didn’t earn it like all of my AOTCs. In any case I have no advantage over anyone.

Bragging about your pixels isn’t an advantage. It just means that you used your time to earn real money. Your time spent earning real money might have you got you some nice pixels but it’s not the same thing as actually doing something. I get that some people just like having stuff but the point of a game is to actually play it. I collect a lot of shit in WOW but I still enjoy running around smashing stuff with my shield the most.

Furthermore buying gold, gear and runs has been happening since Vanilla. My original Vanilla guild definitely sold MC and BWL runs and we weren’t that remarkable.

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Define “better”. I can’t actually pay for better gear currently. I can pay for pixels but I can’t meaningfully increase my gear score by paying for it and even if I could it wouldn’t turn me into a player that’s can score 2500 in PvP, clear Mythic Sylvanas or do Mythic 25’s.

Great! Good for you - But a level 60 player who doesn't want to put in the effort can effectively skip that and buy gear.

[Ivanstone]

Great! Good for you - But a level 60 player who doesn't want to put in the effort can effectively skip that and buy gear.

You have yet to explain how having gear is “winning”.

[Fitsu]

As always this is subjective based on your definition of "P2W".

Technically speaking to win you need to be first. So either the best arena team in the game, rank 1 M+ or world first raid clear. No matter how much money you spend you cannot get any of these things so in that sense no it's not pay to win.

You can spend money to get gold and gold can be spent to speed up your characters progression. So if you view any advantage gained from money spent as "P2W" then yes it is P2W but then where do you draw the line? Technically you have to pay for a sub, if you don't pay you can't play the game if you can't play the game you can't progress your character so by the definition the simply fact you need to spend money to gain access to the game makes it P2W.

For me personally P2W is more about game design than it is about "winning". If there are things that simply can't be obtained without spending money that is ofcourse P2W. If the content in the game is intentionally slowed down but you can pay to speed them up that's P2W. If my experience is lessened because the game is trying to convince me to spend money that is P2W. If spending money gave me a clear advantage in the competitive scene that is P2W.

As far as I'm concerned WoW doesn't do any of these things, so to me it isn't P2W.

[Daymanmb]

As always this is subjective based on your definition of "P2W".

False. It either is, or isnt.

Technically speaking to win you need to be first.

Also false. By your definition nearly nothing would be p2w.

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You have yet to explain how having gear is “winning”.

Paying for an advantage is what makes games p2w. "Win" is not literal, if it were, almost zero games would be p2w. P2w is when you can buy gameplay advantages for real money from the games maker.

Did you ignore my last post because it pretty much dismantles your argument?

[saintminya]

Basically the above argument is "Well they didn't get the experience of putting in the work themselves, so they got no advantage". They got all the same gear, achievements, etc. that you did and they can even brag they did it on their own. They got an advantage.

That's only an "advantage" if you define it as reaping the rewards of a run without playing. That ain't an advantage. It just shows that those type of people care about the prestige of having gear and achievements without having to play the game they apparently do not enjoy. They still aren't getting anything that a player who actually enjoys playing can't get. They aren't getting anything that a player who doesn't enjoy playing all that much but has enough integrity to not enlist someone to carry them has access to either.

Honestly, if you think you're getting some advantage over anyone else by having someone effectively play for you, then this clearly is not the game for you. If you happen to not have time to run some instance that you just refuse to miss a week of and thus elect to pay for a carry or whatever then cool. Everyone else in the game can do that too if they so choose, which of course invalidates the notion of there being any advantage to gain from the practice. We all still have access to the same loot table, just as we all only get that one run before lockout. Now if you were somehow able to do other content on the same character while someone else is taking the time to run them through whatever instance, then that would totally give you an advantage over other players.

[Ivanstone]

Paying for an advantage is what makes games p2w. "Win" is not literal, if it were, almost zero games would be p2w. P2w is when you can buy gameplay advantages for real money from the games maker.

Did you ignore my last post because it pretty much dismantles your argument?

There’s your mistake. “Win” is literal. You don’t always win but that’s the nature of competition. You still spent money trying.

I didn’t bother with your last post because it’s wrong and I’m also at work.

In WOW you might be able to save time with real money but it also takes time to earn real money so that’s kind of a wash. You can either spend money for a nice painting for your house or take the time and effort to paint one for yourself. Both examples are decoration and each has their own but separate merits. Spending money in WOW is just decoration. You’re not “winning” anything.

[kaminaris]

Answer this:
Can you legally spend your own real money to obtain gear, mounts, titles & achivments in wow? I dont give two tosses about "someone made that gold in the first place".

I also dont care that "everyone has always done so" cause thats not true and if it were, Blizzard should have gotten theyre asses up from the seat and actually done something about it. You know, instead of just giving 100% up and just corner the market themself.

Yes, like you always could. Either directly but against tos, still legally. Or legally and not against TOS with TCG loot.

[BattleHammer]

There’s your mistake. “Win” is literal. You don’t always win but that’s the nature of competition. You still spent money trying.

I didn’t bother with your last post because it’s wrong and I’m also at work.

In WOW you might be able to save time with real money but it also takes time to earn real money so that’s kind of a wash. You can either spend money for a nice painting for your house or take the time and effort to paint one for yourself. Both examples are decoration and each has their own but separate merits. Spending money in WOW is just decoration. You’re not “winning” anything.

P2W refers to getting advantages through money, but lets say you have to literaly "win":

-Ain't arena prizes "wins"?
-Ain't raid loots "wins" over bosses?
-Black market?

WoW is an MMO where "winning" is everywhere in many different forms that can differ from player to player, even being able to manipulate the AH prices can be considered a "win" by some players.

Finally the point is: between 2 equal players (skill, time spent playing, etc) can 1 of them get an advantage over the other via RMT endorsed by blizzard? Yes. There's your answer.

[kaminaris]

Finally the point is: between 2 equal players (skill, time spent playing, etc) can 1 of them get an advantage over the other via RMT endorsed by blizzard? Yes. There's your answer.

That is incorrect. Proper form is (assuming your success measurement):

Finally the point is: between 2 equal players (skill, time spent playing, etc) can 1 of them get an advantage over the other via RMT? Yes. There's your answer.

Whatever its endorsed or no, doesn't really matter. But even in this case TCG was a thing from almost beginning.

Also personally I do not consider arena wins nor raid loot nor black market a win.

[Ivanstone]

P2W refers to getting advantages through money, but lets say you have to literaly "win":

-Ain't arena prizes "wins"?
-Ain't raid loots "wins" over bosses?
-Black market?

P2W refers to winning. That's why its called PayToWin. Words have meaning.

Yes. Good luck paying your way to victory. It ain't happening. The amount of gear you can get is strictly finite and eventually you'll have to play well enough to earn your keep. And if you can play well enough to earn your keep you didn't need to buy anything in the first place.
No.
Decoration.

WoW is an MMO where "winning" is everywhere in many different forms that can differ from player to player, even being able to manipulate the AH prices can be considered a "win" by some players.

Finally the point is: between 2 equal players (skill, time spent playing, etc) can 1 of them get an advantage over the other via RMT endorsed by blizzard? Yes. There's your answer.

Doing anything in game that leads to your personal satisfaction is just enjoying the game. Yes, you can buy AOTC. For some merely having the achievement is sufficient. For others going through the hoops to gain the achievement with a guild or even a pug is more desirable. Both have just decorated their accounts. The former hasn't done anything that has to do with the latter. You haven't "won" anything. You just obtained something in game using what means are available to you.

I'm not a P2W player. The only thing I ever spent money on is Pets. I don't bother with buying runs and gear simply because I enjoy going through the motions of obtaining them. I can't get everything because of time and skill limitations but that's fine. Its understandable if you don't like going through the motions for some stuff but the point of playing a game is to actually play it.

[BattleHammer]

That is incorrect. Proper form is (assuming your success measurement):

Finally the point is: between 2 equal players (skill, time spent playing, etc) can 1 of them get an advantage over the other via RMT? Yes. There's your answer.

Whatever its endorsed or no, doesn't really matter. But even in this case TCG was a thing from almost beginning.

Also personally I do not consider arena wins nor raid loot nor black market a win.

The whole point of a game being/becoming P2W is getting advantages via RMT endorsed by the developer, if it's not then it's against ToS.

On your second point, like you said it's a personal view, therefore not valid as an argument.

[kaminaris]

The whole point of a game being/becoming P2W is getting advantages via RMT endorsed by the developer, if it's not then it's against ToS.

On your second point, like you said it's a personal view, therefore not valid as an argument.

You don't seem to understand the principle. According to your definition WoW was pay to win since the beginning. That is first thing because TCG existed.

Second thing, your definition does not exclude players that just RMT directly.

> between 2 equal players

Does not exclude people that simply don't care about TOS.
In other words: Your morals does not prevent them from gaining advantage over you.
Thus your definition is incorrect.

Now because there is no standard definition of P2W one can say either 2 things:
WoW was pay 2 win since TCG
or
WoW is not and never was P2W.

[BattleHammer]

P2W refers to winning. That's why its called PayToWin. Words have meaning.

Yes. Good luck paying your way to victory. It ain't happening. The amount of gear you can get is strictly finite and eventually you'll have to play well enough to earn your keep. And if you can play well enough to earn your keep you didn't need to buy anything in the first place.
No.
Decoration.



Doing anything in game that leads to your personal satisfaction is just enjoying the game. Yes, you can buy AOTC. For some merely having the achievement is sufficient. For others going through the hoops to gain the achievement with a guild or even a pug is more desirable. Both have just decorated their accounts. The former hasn't done anything that has to do with the latter. You haven't "won" anything. You just obtained something in game using what means are available to you.

I'm not a P2W player. The only thing I ever spent money on is Pets. I don't bother with buying runs and gear simply because I enjoy going through the motions of obtaining them. I can't get everything because of time and skill limitations but that's fine. Its understandable if you don't like going through the motions for some stuff but the point of playing a game is to actually play it.

So you won something but you didn't?

Once again, if you don't consider this stuff "wins" that's your personal opinion, as other player do consider them "wins".

Regarding the second highlight, you are saying that you aren't a P2W player, therefore there are P2W players?
Of course the point of a game is to play it, but the question of this thread is "Is wow P2W?". Not completely of course but has mechanics that make it so, in any P2W game you can play as a F2P player but that doesn't mean the game is no longer P2W.

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You don't seem to understand the principle. According to your definition WoW was pay to win since the beginning. That is first thing because TCG existed.

Second thing, your definition does not exclude players that just RMT directly.

> between 2 equal players

Does not exclude people that simply don't care about TOS.
In other words: Your morals does not prevent them from gaining advantage over you.
Thus your definition is incorrect.

Now because there is no standard definition of P2W one can say either 2 things:
WoW was pay 2 win since TCG
or
WoW is not and never was P2W.

This is not morals, it's ToS: you got caught, you get banned. Pretty simple.

You could say WoW was P2W since TCG (I don't know if you could get any real advantage from them), however that was "removed" and no longer an alternative. But now you have the token (paying for gold) and services such as blizzard boost (paying to skip content).

[Ivanstone]

So you won something but you didn't?

Once again, if you don't consider this stuff "wins" that's your personal opinion, as other player do consider them "wins".

Regarding the second highlight, you are saying that you aren't a P2W player, therefore there are P2W players?
Of course the point of a game is to play it, but the question of this thread is "Is wow P2W?". Not completely of course but has mechanics that make it so, in any P2W game you can play as a F2P player but that doesn't mean the game is no longer P2W.

I have never won anything playing WoW. I have merely obtained a well decorated account. If I had more money to spend I could've had more decorations or had more time for other things. I would've also had more boredom. I've been playing this game for 16.5 years and play at least 3 hours a day. Its a pretty good game.

It means other players are using the word "win" incorrectly. Yourself included.

Dear Mr Pedantic. Yes I shouldn't have said P2W. I should've said I don't pay for decorations except Pets. I have over 1400 of them. They're cool.

Yes, you can buy stuff in WoW. They're just decorations. Yes, that includes having the gold to buy dungeon/raids/pvp. Is there anything wrong with paying for decorations? I don't think so.

[kaminaris]

This is not morals, it's ToS: you got caught, you get banned. Pretty simple.

You could say WoW was P2W since TCG (I don't know if you could get any real advantage from them), however that was "removed" and no longer an alternative. But now you have the token (paying for gold) and services such as blizzard boost (paying to skip content).

Of course its morals. Plenty of people buying RMT directly. "Sellers" are at disadvantage here when it comes to ban.

TCG was and is still a way to convert real money to gold since you can just sell codes. And it still is alternative
https://www.wowtcgloot.com/reins_of_...tral_tiger.htm

You can simply buy that for dollars and sell it on AH for gold. Same way token works.

[BattleHammer]

I have never won anything playing WoW. I have merely obtained a well decorated account. If I had more money to spend I could've had more decorations or had more time for other things. I would've also had more boredom. I've been playing this game for 16.5 years and play at least 3 hours a day. Its a pretty good game.

It means other players are using the word "win" incorrectly. Yourself included.

Dear Mr Pedantic. Yes I shouldn't have said P2W. I should've said I don't pay for decorations except Pets. I have over 1400 of them. They're cool.

Yes, you can buy stuff in WoW. They're just decorations. Yes, that includes having the gold to buy dungeon/raids/pvp. Is there anything wrong with paying for decorations? I don't think so.

Back to square one, you can get advantages from buying gold/boosts, they way to a "victory" between 2 parts is through some sort of advantage, then the "win" is the end while "means" is the discussion, if you can get an advantageous "mean" through money, how is that not p2w?

BTW Keep your adjectives, there no need for them.

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Of course its morals. Plenty of people buying RMT directly. "Sellers" are at disadvantage here when it comes to ban.

TCG was and is still a way to convert real money to gold since you can just sell codes. And it still is alternative
https://www.wowtcgloot.com/reins_of_...tral_tiger.htm

You can simply buy that for dollars and sell it on AH for gold. Same way token works.

Then, yes TCG is a P2W mechanic. Out of ToS don't factor as they infringe upon ToS.

[kaminaris]

Then, yes TCG is a P2W mechanic. Out of ToS don't factor as they infringe upon ToS.

Doesn't matter, it does not prevent those people from "gaining advantage".

[BattleHammer]

Doesn't matter, it does not prevent those people from "gaining advantage".

If you follow that road then either all games are P2W or none is.

[kaminaris]

If you follow that road then either all games are P2W or none is.

No, it simply means your definition is flawed at its core.

Which is why definitions that include clause saying its otherwise unobtainable or unobtainable within reasonable amount of time are more accurate.

Like P2W mobile games that technically give you possibility to obtain everything but without paying it may take a year.
Or P2W mobile games that straight up not have the possibility to make up in any possible way except for money.