1. #2601
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    #2 gains an advantage over 1, 3, or 4 by the very nature of the options you gave.

    A person having to settle for less - obvious disadvantage to someone who pays for it. Someone wanting to clear content on a Mythic level or obtain Mythic level gear can't.

    Earning it as intended - the person who pays for it "earned it" and didn't have to put in the same time or effort doing so. Advantage.

    Pay for it with gold - The average WoW player does not earn the amount of gold necessary to facilitate the purchase, and if the average person did the prices would either increase by the nature of supply and demand. Someone who bought gold with money didn't have to spend hours upon hours farming it, just a few seconds of entering in credit card information. Saved time = advantage.
    Settling for less happens even in a strict non-P2W game. The option was included for completeness. They are at a disadvantage to everyone.

    Option #1 is the fun option. Your definition is subjective. I counter that its a disadvantage because it doesn't provide the same game experience. Some are content with just the rewards, some are would like the real game experience but are settling for less.

    Option #2 and #3 are effectively the same. Some find its easier to earn real life money, some find its easier to earn gold in game. Spending time in game earning gold is not any different than spending time gaining money in real life. You're also wrong about how people earn gold in game. Some people are fantastically wealthy in game without ever spending a penny in real life. Personally its easier for me to earn gold in game than real life money.

    In any event, if you can obtain the exact same rewards through multiple means while having no power advantage the game isn't P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    So the argument has basically come down to... "Sure, they can buy the same achievements, gear, titles, mounts, etc. but they didn't get the TRUE experience so there is no pay to win."
    That's certainly part of it. The real argument does paying money give you an actual statistical advantage? The answer is no. It doesn't even give you much of lead in decorations. Gear is still gated and somewhat random to obtain.

    Anything obtainable in game is also obtainable by other means.

  2. #2602
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Settling for less happens even in a strict non-P2W game. The option was included for completeness. They are at a disadvantage to everyone.

    Option #1 is the fun option. Your definition is subjective. I counter that its a disadvantage because it doesn't provide the same game experience. Some are content with just the rewards, some are would like the real game experience but are settling for less.

    Option #2 and #3 are effectively the same. Some find its easier to earn real life money, some find its easier to earn gold in game. Spending time in game earning gold is not any different than spending time gaining money in real life. You're also wrong about how people earn gold in game. Some people are fantastically wealthy in game without ever spending a penny in real life. Personally its easier for me to earn gold in game than real life money.

    In any event, if you can obtain the exact same rewards through multiple means while having no power advantage the game isn't P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's certainly part of it. The real argument does paying money give you an actual statistical advantage? The answer is no. It doesn't even give you much of lead in decorations. Gear is still gated and somewhat random to obtain.

    Anything obtainable in game is also obtainable by other means.
    "Fun" is subjective. How are you calling out something as subjective when using a subjective opinion in the same sentence? What you find "fun" is not the same thing as what someone else considers to be "fun". We're not talking about "experience", what's "fun", or any of that. We're talking about the nature of paying to obtain an advantage. Why are we even going back to this?

    Also I didn't say nobody could farm gold or be wealthy. Someone who spends a significant amount of time going full goblin on the AH is not the average player. Neither is the player that does nothing but farm gold all day. These aren't your typical WoW players. Still, the point remains, to get that gold you either invest time by gaming the AH or going hardcore on gold farming to the point of almost doing that solely. I don't know how much gold boosts cost in SL (haven't played) but I'm sure nobody is farming upwards of the equivalent to $1-3k in gold for Mythic raid boosts. Heck I'd almost think that even full heroic runs are expensive. Someone who did that definitely isn't an "average" wow player by far.

    I'm being completely objective considering my bias of actually selling boosts.
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-07 at 12:58 AM.

  3. #2603
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    "Fun" is subjective. How are you calling out something as subjective when using a subjective opinion in the same sentence? What you find "fun" is not the same thing as what someone else considers to be "fun". We're not talking about "experience", what's "fun", or any of that. We're talking about the nature of paying to obtain an advantage. Why are we even going back to this?
    Because its still a game. I've layed out some options how people can obtain a reward but the experience of obtaining that reward will vary depending on which option you choose. Your satisfaction with each option will also be different than other players doing the same. Some people are just choosing the best option but wish they could use a different option. For example, a person may have a miserable but well-paying job but would rather just fuck around and play lots of WoW. This persons best option is to spend money in game and get a bit of loot. I don't have any problem with this and this type of player has existed since Vanilla. One thing this player can't do is gain a statistical game play advantage over other players. There are other games where this is possible but it isn't possible in WoW.

  4. #2604
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Yes; It's still Pay-2-Win since the last time we discussed it.
    If its "still" pay-2-win since the last time *you* decided it was pay-2-win, then it has ALWAYS been pay-2-win.

  5. #2605
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Because its still a game. I've layed out some options how people can obtain a reward but the experience of obtaining that reward will vary depending on which option you choose. Your satisfaction with each option will also be different than other players doing the same. Some people are just choosing the best option but wish they could use a different option. For example, a person may have a miserable but well-paying job but would rather just fuck around and play lots of WoW. This persons best option is to spend money in game and get a bit of loot. I don't have any problem with this and this type of player has existed since Vanilla. One thing this player can't do is gain a statistical game play advantage over other players. There are other games where this is possible but it isn't possible in WoW.
    Again, we aren't talking about subjective things as "satisfaction". And I think you're applying pay to win to only one instance and ignoring other instances where P2W elements are actually there. I think Cthulu's example of gacha games immediately counters this; if it was all about "experience", gacha games aren't P2W since players that don't spend any kind of money have the same "experience" as whales.

    If it was only about experience, people wouldn't have complained back when LFR was implemented that it didn't drop loot. They got the experience, right?
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-07 at 01:47 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #2606
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, we aren't talking about subjective things as "satisfaction". And I think you're applying pay to win to only one instance and ignoring other instances where P2W elements are actually there. I think Cthulu's example of gacha games immediately counters this; if it was all about "experience", gacha games aren't P2W since players that don't spend any kind of money have the same "experience" as whales.

    If it was only about experience, people wouldn't have complained back when LFR was implemented that it didn't drop loot. They got the experience, right?
    P2W is only about statistical advantage. I haven’t played Genshin. Some brief reading about the game shows that there are complaints about it being P2W but others have stated that’s well over blown. You’ll have to examine each game separately to see what advantages spending confers. If time spent is the only difference in game play from spending money, how much time do you need to catch up satisfactorily? If that time starts to resemble infinity then the game is probably P2W.

    LFR is a very different raiding experience than Normal, Heroic and Mythic. The loots not even the same. The only similarities between the four modes is the graphics and sound. Blizzard showing off their art is probably the chief reason LFR exists.

  7. #2607
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, we aren't talking about subjective things as "satisfaction". And I think you're applying pay to win to only one instance and ignoring other instances where P2W elements are actually there. I think Cthulu's example of gacha games immediately counters this; if it was all about "experience", gacha games aren't P2W since players that don't spend any kind of money have the same "experience" as whales.

    If it was only about experience, people wouldn't have complained back when LFR was implemented that it didn't drop loot. They got the experience, right?
    Yo, theres no point. Ivanstone is either a troll, or white knighting for a company, because reasons. He has a list of talking points that he cycles between.

  8. #2608
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    P2W is only about statistical advantage. I haven’t played Genshin. Some brief reading about the game shows that there are complaints about it being P2W but others have stated that’s well over blown. You’ll have to examine each game separately to see what advantages spending confers. If time spent is the only difference in game play from spending money, how much time do you need to catch up satisfactorily? If that time starts to resemble infinity then the game is probably P2W.
    P2W is not only about statistical advantage. Literally every definition of pay-to-win on every page states that it only means to gain ANY advantage over non-paying peers.

    I think this page defines it best: https://alternateimage.net/gaming/20...d-of-warcraft/

    The same points above means that it is incredibly easy, if not a bit costly, to pay for significant advantage in WoW. A PVP player can buy carries to a relatively high rating. A PVE player can buy carries to all relevant PVE achievements for each tier of content, giving both a gear advantage and the ability to link the achievements to make group invites more readily available. The only caveat here is that some of the carries can take some time until they are available (aka the carry groups have enough gear/practice), but often a lesser scope of the carry is available almost as soon as the content is out. The ability to use cash, through tokens/gold, to buy carries is a massive advantage that cannot be ignored.
    Therefore, if your hung up on the idea of "win", change it to "advantage". And if you say you cannot pay for advantages then I'd have to really consider if we're discussing this in good faith.

    LFR is a very different raiding experience than Normal, Heroic and Mythic. The loots not even the same. The only similarities between the four modes is the graphics and sound. Blizzard showing off their art is probably the chief reason LFR exists.
    Again, we're not talking about experience, we're talking about end goals. If someone's goal was to simply "experience" Blizzard's "art" then LFR would be all they need, regardless of the drops (if any did). Or heck, a YouTube video of someone's full run or a Twitch stream would suffice.

    Things such as experience, skill, or satisfaction is irrelevant to the discussion. People's goals vary, so mentioning "satisfaction" and "experience" means nothing here if there's even one person who does not agree with what you find satisfying.

    The only questions needing to be answered is (1) Can I use real money to skip content, be it directly from Blizzard or indirectly? and (2) Are there any advantages, direct or indirect that can be gained by using real money?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Yo, theres no point. Ivanstone is either a troll, or white knighting for a company, because reasons. He has a list of talking points that he cycles between.
    I know, but the idiot in me is still giving him the benefit of the doubt here. Like I know he's literally beating around the bush, but there's this stupid part of me that thinks "maybe he really doesn't know" lol
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-07 at 04:27 AM.

  9. #2609
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    I know, but the idiot in me is still giving him the benefit of the doubt here. Like I know he's literally beating around the bush, but there's this stupid part of me that thinks "maybe he really doesn't know" lol
    He knows. He changes his point every time his previous one becomes effectively countered. Thats not by mistake.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Therefore, if your hung up on the idea of "win", change it to "advantage". And if you say you cannot pay for advantages then I'd have to really consider if we're discussing this in good faith.
    Hes already made this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    P2W implies winning. Lots of games are P2W. Maybe you should play some of them. I currently play Lords Mobile, Star Trek Timelines and Marvel Puzzle Quest. All 3 of which are games where you can pay real money to gain a decisive game play advantage over other players.

  10. #2610
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    He knows. He changes his point every time his previous one becomes effectively countered. Thats not by mistake.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Hes already made this point:
    Oh. Well then. Guess that answered the idiot in me lol

  11. #2611
    Soo I've just did highest DPS on a key (Overall) with 231 ilv, while the other 2 had 242/245, you can buy all gear, doesn't matter if you're bad

  12. #2612
    I'm gonna make a quick attempt to summarize some of the arguments on the non P2W side.

    1. "In order for a game to be considered P2W, you have to gain real player power."

    As I stated earlier with my example of the buff you can buy which increase your HP and damage by 200 %, what does the buff ultimately lead to? What is the end game with that buff? The only two things, in WoW, I can think of is top brackets in PvP and clearing current mythic content. If I wished to, I could open a new account today, buy a level boost, buy a ridiculous amount of tokens, sell those and have so much gold I could buy carries for both PvE and PvP, leading to the same result as if I would buy a 200 % buff, but with even less effort. I could just stand in the graveyard or type /follow in the raid, and would get all the items, trophies, achievements, pets, toys, mounts, everything. I could even pay another player to play the game for me, just giving me the rewards.

    2. "You're only buying decorations, that's not winning."

    Isn't that what all games do offer tho, when you leave fun, experience and enjoyment out of the equation? Decorations? If you play a game where you can buy yourself to the top, what does that give you? A banner? Title? A spot on a leaderboard? As I stated with my point regarding player power, the end game is the same, right? Beating other players?

    3. "It's not P2W if you can do the exact same thing for free."

    Then by this logic there are no P2W-games out there, which I know of, where you can not do the exact same if you just invest a lot more time, training and learning. The fun part is that this does not hold true for WoW. Yes, if you play enough, have enough friends that can boost you, help you, etc. you might clear that mythic raid without the skills and time investement. But those are big ifs, and are irrelevant for the discussion. We're talking about what constitutes P2W, what is winning in WoW, and does WoW offer a P2W option.

    My answer to this question is yes, WoW is pay to win. It is not done directly by buying a buff or item that makes you overpowered, but it is by purchasing in game gold, which facilitates the rest.

    A step-by-step way to win in WoW.
    1. Open fresh account
    2. Buy level boost
    3. Buy tokens
    4. Sell tokens
    5. /2 LF leveling boost, 100k gold per level
    6. /2 LF Current Mythic Content clear, all achievements and items are reserved, 500k gold per player
    7. /2 LF PvP boosting (top bracket), 50k gold per game per player
    8. ???
    9. Congratulations, you have won in WoW.

    Edit: typo

  13. #2613
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's not how p2w works at all. If I spend $60, I am getting a headstart over someone else not spending that money and starting at level 1.
    What the hell are you even talking about? Getting a "boost" to push a character to the level where the average player was a year ago is not a "headstart". It's a catchup.

    p2w works by giving people who pay an advantage over those players who aren't paying which they cannot hope to overcome without either paying themselves or putting in an extraordinary amount of effort.

    If they started selling a L70 character boost at the start of their next expansion, which allowed players paying for this boost to hit level cap before those trying to level up the normal way, then that would be p2w.

    Please don't tell me that this concept is hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Just because you want to try and redefine what the word "advantage" means doesn't make you correct.
    On the contrary, it is you who seems to be trying to redefine things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    a catch-up mechanism can be a pay to win feature if it takes long time to catch up
    You've got it the wrong way around. A pay to win feature can be used to achieve the same outcome as a catch up mechanism, but that does not make a catch up mechanism a pay to win feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    imagine average mobile game with time locks on building shit - without paying extra you're severely gimped compared to players who did pay, and you have to compete with them
    Yes, these are p2w games. And the notion of trying to compare WoW to such a game is ridiculous.

  14. #2614
    Bloodsail Admiral Femininity's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Woman in a Man's World
    Posts
    1,013
    *Laughs in purchased purples*
    Remember: Words are not violence.
    Make your own groups!!!

  15. #2615
    Elemental Lord
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,389
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    If someone sucks at making gold in MMOs and ends up lagging behind then we call it divine providence as that how it should be. You suck at game, you lose or have worse time then someone who pwns in it. Swiping credit card to circumvent it violates the natural order and game progress isn't measured in how a player is good at the game but how much money they can throw at it.
    Progress in WoW has never been measured by how much money you can throw it. It's about how much and time and effort you throw at it. If you believe that the people who are at the top of this "natural order" are there because they spent money buying WoW tokens, you're delusional. If anything, the type of player who spends money on tokens sits near the bottom of the "natural order" while those at the top of "natural order" are the ones supplying the gold for the token market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Yes they do. You pay extra money, you get extra gold, you spend extra gold for items and boosts non-paying players cannot get for free.
    That is an outright lie. You do not have to pay money to obtain the gold needed to buy any of this stuff. The fact that the gold bought by those who do pay comes from players who don't pay proves this. This would, of course, be very different if Blizzard sold gold directly to players without the other end of the transaction and the player paying gold for their tokens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Someone going to long way of grinding gold or manually getting the good enough group is not doing it at the same efficiency as someone who swiped his credit card. That advantage cannot be replicated in same time/effort efficient fashion if you start from scratch.
    The manner in which tokens work proves you wrong. If the gold that you can buy with tokens was as difficult to make in game as you indicate, then no one would be using their gold to buy tokens. The supply demand mechanism guarantees that the amount of gold you will get when you buy a token is trivial to make in game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Except there are second class citizens in the game.
    Not on the basis of who buys tokens/spends money. Which is what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    A booster swipes his card and gets guaranteed 10/10hc clears and soon 10/10 mythic clears once they become available.
    Everyone else has to go do it the hard way, perhaps fail as he wastes time on wipes and even if succeds he ends up spending more time doing it legit then he would if he went doing some overtime at work in order to swipe his debit card.
    You're making a "theoretical" claim based on a (massively flawed) set of assumptions that suits your argument, but has zero grounding in what actually happens in game.

    Firstly, boosting is not exclusively available to, nor exclusively used by players who buy gold with tokens. In fact I would argue that far more boostees do so using gold obtained in-game than through tokens.

    Secondly, by definition, if you're getting boosted, you are already not in the top echelon of players, because those in the top echelon are those providing the boost. So again, your argument fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Also you are gullible if you think all WoW token purchases are authentic.
    We're talking about a company that screwed over its female employees and lied to their investors that everything is fine.
    Yet you would lead yourself to believe that they would not screw around with WoW token behind the scenes?
    That is conspiracy theory talk. But hardly surprising that you would resort to this type of bottom-of-the-barrel style of argumentation.

    And before you try to strawman me, no, I don't approve of Blizzard's crimes against their female staff, or many other egregious things they have done/continue to do. But that is patently not evidence that they are messing with token supply and demand. And if you actually have a clue and look at how the token price fluctuates, this gives us every reason to believe that tokens are traded as advertised.

  16. #2616
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post


    Firstly, boosting is not exclusively available to, nor exclusively used by players who buy gold with tokens. In fact I would argue that far more boostees do so using gold obtained in-game than through tokens.

    Secondly, by definition, if you're getting boosted, you are already not in the top echelon of players, because those in the top echelon are those providing the boost. So again, your argument fails.
    You really think the average player farms enough gold to get boosted on the regular? The average player farm so much gold himself and because of that boosting has exploded in tradechat and in LFG channel? Yeah right. Most people dont spend all day farming gold. They have the gold that covers the basis costs of proff stuff and such, but the average player dont run around farming 200k+ gold. Just as most people dont push mythic raiding.

    The bronto mount in BfA would never have costed 5 millions if the token wasnt in the game. Same goes with various other mounts. Prices for various proffesion materials(like legendary crafting materials in SL) would never have the pricetag it does if token wasnt part of the game.

    You can keep on twisting and turning on this, but the token is nothing else but a cheap p2w feature added by Blizzard. Reason? they cant be bothered to fix the blatant botting+RMT/gold trading for boosts happening in theyre own game, so they just made a legal approach. All the while still not giving a shit about botting, RMT and such.

    It also doesnt matter that the tokens that are sold are gold from other players, it affect the game badly no matter.

    The fact that MMORPG players actually defend this practice is telling of how far off the genre has become from what it was. Its sad.

  17. #2617
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What the hell are you even talking about? Getting a "boost" to push a character to the level where the average player was a year ago is not a "headstart". It's a catchup.

    p2w works by giving people who pay an advantage over those players who aren't paying which they cannot hope to overcome without either paying themselves or putting in an extraordinary amount of effort.

    If they started selling a L70 character boost at the start of their next expansion, which allowed players paying for this boost to hit level cap before those trying to level up the normal way, then that would be p2w.

    Please don't tell me that this concept is hard to understand.



    On the contrary, it is you who seems to be trying to redefine things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You've got it the wrong way around. A pay to win feature can be used to achieve the same outcome as a catch up mechanism, but that does not make a catch up mechanism a pay to win feature.



    Yes, these are p2w games. And the notion of trying to compare WoW to such a game is ridiculous.
    You are literally trying to redefine what p2w means instead of just admitting WoW is p2w. Your description of "how p2w works" isn't remotely accurate. Paying $60 for a massive level boost is purchasing player power and is therefore p2w. Just because you refuse to say anything negative about WoW doesn't mean the game isn't p2w.

  18. #2618
    Quote Originally Posted by Hangedman View Post
    Soo I've just did highest DPS on a key (Overall) with 231 ilv, while the other 2 had 242/245, you can buy all gear, doesn't matter if you're bad
    Overall dps doesn't mean shit.

  19. #2619
    If you can buy gear for real-life money then it's pay to win. In a game where gear matters as much as it does - you can pay for anything in WoW. Also Glad - KSM - Mythic Raider. Just accept it.

    If you define win by skills - then no - but people measure dicks in glads/ilv around here.

  20. #2620
    Depends how you define winning. Could you buy a boost to a certain pvp ranking and then spend months getting gear for that pvp raiting by doing bgs and other shit? Sure. But that is not winning since gear means nothing and you are not good enough to play your character at that rating. Same goes for mythic raid boosting. Could you buy a boost to get mythic gear that means nothing? Sure. However you are not in a guild with a decent ranking nor will you have logs showing what you did during these raids making it all useless. So no, wow is not pay2win.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •