Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Daymanmb]

The "paid service" is them facilitating the transaction - linking a buyer and seller.

A good real-life analogy is airbnb. They don't provide anyone with accommodation, they simply provide a platform for people seeking accommodation to find those providing accommodation, and take a cut for doing so. In the same way, the token isn't providing the gold.

If you could hop onto the Blizzard shop and literally buy gold which the game then generated for you, without the listing of the token on the AH and some other person paying gold for it on the end, then sure that would very much be pay to win.

Honestly, I don't see how you guys don't get this very basic concept. I suspect it's just plain old stubborness

Blizzard is still making money on the transaction of gold. Theyre selling the service. Theres a reason the token is more expensive than a month of game time.

[crusadernero]

That's a load of nonsense. The price of tokens is determined by supply and demand. It's the compromise between what players on the one end of the gold-making-competency spectrum see as good value to be paying for gold, and what those on the other end see as good value to be selling gold at. Ergo, for some players it is easier and cheaper to just buy it, but for most players, it's easier just to acquire it in-game.



That is conspiracy theory thinking. I would argue that the game itself is pretty agnostic towards tokens. Of course Blizzard saw an opportunity to generate cash with them, but I don't see any evidence that making money was ever their primary objective or that they try to push people to buy them, preferring instead to not tamper and just let token transactions happen naturally.



p2w sets the system up such that those who don't pay are effectively excluded from being able to "win". The token does not do that. Yes, it is option for inclusion, but it is hardly an exclusive option. Hell it's not even the preferred option, given that the vast majority of players achieving these things, especially those who do it first (ie the actual winners) do it entirely without tokens.

thus, not p2w.



Never played it, but from the description, you buy lootboxes from the game that have a direct impact on your power. That sounds very different to wow tokens. As I understand it, a gacha system in WoW would be like paying money to basically open the weekly loot vault as many times as you can afford...

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The "paid service" is them facilitating the transaction - linking a buyer and seller.

A good real-life analogy is airbnb. They don't provide anyone with accommodation, they simply provide a platform for people seeking accommodation to find those providing accommodation, and take a cut for doing so. In the same way, the token isn't providing the gold.

If you could hop onto the Blizzard shop and literally buy gold which the game then generated for you, without the listing of the token on the AH and some other person paying gold for it on the end, then sure that would very much be pay to win.

Honestly, I don't see how you guys don't get this very basic concept. I suspect it's just plain old stubborness

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I have explained it. How can you not grasp such a simple concept?



Gross exaggeration lacking in any substance.



Stop being disingenuous. It demonstrates not only the fact that your argument is shit, but it also destroys your credibility as an honest commentator.

Tokens patently do not give you "free gear/mount/achivs/titles". They gives you gold. Gold is that by no means exclusive to token buyers and is in fact pretty trivial to acquire without paying a cent.



like what exactly?



Sorry but I just don't buy into this conspiracy theory thinking.

dude, get over yourself. This is really not complicated. This is a MMORPG where the endgame is to obtain better gear, mounts, titles & achivments from tackeling challenging content with others.

The token opens up to give a big F to that. Buy token, get everything, call it a day. It doesnt matter one bit that a selected few gets money out of it.Worst example is probably gladiator title. everyone that wants it just buy tokens and get it.

In mere seconds you can get 120k gold in a few clicks. most players dont go out and grind that in short time, you know that. why even bother with it when you can buy token?

[saintminya]

I think you disagree with people that dont see thing the way you want. wow is about end game and conquering the hardest difficulty. this use to mean being with equally skilled players to do that. Winning is also about getting the gear to do great dps and do well in arena. Guess what? All this can actually be bought with cash.

You can buy boosts to skip a ton of content and the learning of your class that goes with it, sure. You can then wait for others to clear the current content and pay them gold to carry you through instances for the loot and undeserved achievements. Okay, so you've breezed through all but the final stretch of leveling and cheesed your way through acquiring some level of gear, but all at the likely cost of not getting adept at your class and role. The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not. You're also at the mercy of RNG, so your gear acquisition could take more or less time than others, whether they're also getting carried of if they're actively engaging and keeping up in the instance runs. Since you're not gaining any advantage time-wise, you may actually be doing a disservice to yourself by relying on the advanced skill of others and not honing your ability to excel in your class/role.

Looks to me like the boosts and carries are escorting you up to endgame, but not providing you with any edge over all the players with access to the exact same gear when it comes time to participate in the endgame. The player who utilised their skill to obtain the same gear as you, or even slightly worse gear, will always have the advantage simply because they elected to not take shortcuts and thus gained experience.

[Daymanmb]

You can buy boosts to skip a ton of content and the learning of your class that goes with it, sure. You can then wait for others to clear the current content and pay them gold to carry you through instances for the loot and undeserved achievements. Okay, so you've breezed through all but the final stretch of leveling and cheesed your way through acquiring some level of gear, but all at the likely cost of not getting adept at your class and role. The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not. You're also at the mercy of RNG, so your gear acquisition could take more or less time than others, whether they're also getting carried of if they're actively engaging and keeping up in the instance runs. Since you're not gaining any advantage time-wise, you may actually be doing a disservice to yourself by relying on the advanced skill of others and not honing your ability to excel in your class/role.

Looks to me like the boosts and carries are escorting you up to endgame, but not providing you with any edge over all the players with access to the exact same gear when it comes time to participate in the endgame. The player who utilised their skill to obtain the same gear as you, or even slightly worse gear, will always have the advantage simply because they elected to not take shortcuts and thus gained experience.

Carries dont save time? Lmao such nonsense

[crusadernero]

You can buy boosts to skip a ton of content and the learning of your class that goes with it, sure. You can then wait for others to clear the current content and pay them gold to carry you through instances for the loot and undeserved achievements. Okay, so you've breezed through all but the final stretch of leveling and cheesed your way through acquiring some level of gear, but all at the likely cost of not getting adept at your class and role. The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not. You're also at the mercy of RNG, so your gear acquisition could take more or less time than others, whether they're also getting carried of if they're actively engaging and keeping up in the instance runs. Since you're not gaining any advantage time-wise, you may actually be doing a disservice to yourself by relying on the advanced skill of others and not honing your ability to excel in your class/role.

Looks to me like the boosts and carries are escorting you up to endgame, but not providing you with any edge over all the players with access to the exact same gear when it comes time to participate in the endgame. The player who utilised their skill to obtain the same gear as you, or even slightly worse gear, will always have the advantage simply because they elected to not take shortcuts and thus gained experience.

Imagine a decent wow player. Someone who can carry his own weight in the game, be it pvp and/or pve. This player got shite gear. Lacks certain achivs also that is required to join groups for various content. He can either play the game and gear up & obtain relevant achivs up until he finally gets a spot to clear bosses that gives BiS/mount/titles. Lots of hours required, and some luck especially if you start out alone.

OR

he can just buy token(s) and get all of this in a couple of nights and a few weeks. Instead of doing korthia catch up gearing. instead of doing m+ after m+ with randoms were its a decent chance it all goes to hell(without your fault), join raids were you rely on 20 other people or grind BG/arena all day all night for honor & conquest.


Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?

[saintminya]

Carries dont save time? Lmao such nonsense

Exactly how is that nonsense? You can't do anything else with your character during that time, and there's no guarantee the instance will be cleared any quicker than any other group.

he can just buy token(s) and get all of this in a couple of nights and a few weeks. Instead of doing korthia catch up gearing. instead of doing m+ after m+ with randoms were its a decent chance it all goes to hell(without your fault), join raids were you rely on 20 other people or grind BG/arena all day all night for honor & conquest.

Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?

In your own scenario here it is taking weeks for both players to gear up. You're also assuming that everyone does randoms instead of having friends or a guild to run with. I'll give you that a carry should have less risk of failure than a random, but still ignoring that taking such a passive role adversely affects your ability to engage in the content at that relevant stage.

[Daymanmb]

Exactly how is that nonsense? You can't do anything else with your character during that time, and there's no guarantee the instance will be cleared any quicker than any other group.

Because carries save a toooon of time obviously lol.. what takes more time, progression, or carries?

[saintminya]

Because carries save a toooon of time obviously lol.. what takes more time, progression, or carries?

That is entirely dependent on the group, and how much of a deadweight you are in that carry.

[Daymanmb]

That is entirely dependent on the group, and how much of a deadweight you are in that carry.

You seriously think carries take more time than progression? Have you eveeer been apart of progression???? What an idiotic assertion..

[Mokrath]

It's really a big stretch to call tokens P2W and you can see that in the evolution of this thread as people start calling it indirect p2w or p2w "features" or whatever other term they come up with.
The gold comes from other players. The gear comes from other players.
The carries are performed by other players who can clear content so easily they can drag dead weight through it.
The only thing your money gets you is a token you can sell to another player.
The gold is already in the game, along with the gear and skilled players who can clear content for you.
If I didn't farm 10's of millions of gold over the years, along with others, your tokens have no value.
If raiders didn't farm BoE's to sell on the AH, your gold has no value.
If PvPers, raiders and M+ players didn't carry you through their respective content, your gold has no value.

Your cash does not create anything directly, nor does it directly make players stronger. It just lets you trade game time for gold with other players in a safe and non-ToS violation manner.

[Daymanmb]

Your cash does not create anything directly, nor does it directly make players stronger. It just lets you trade game time for gold with other players in a safe and non-ToS violation manner.

Your cash buys gold which allows you to buy power lol. All of your "ifs" are non sequiturs.

[saintminya]

You seriously think carries take more time than progression? Have you eveeer been apart of progression???? What an idiotic assertion..

I only ever run dungeons and raids with friends, so I wouldn't know how fast or slow a carry can go. It is absurd to assume that there could never be any variability in the time it takes for one group to clear whatever instance versus the other though. Are you just assuming that any group not hosting a carry must have inferior gear or unskilled players?

[Daymanmb]

I only ever run dungeons and raids with friends, so I wouldn't know how fast or slow a carry can go. It is absurd to assume that there could never be any variability in the time it takes for one group to clear whatever instance versus the otherr. Are you just assuming that any group not hosting a carry must have inferior gear or unskilled players?

Im saying your assertion that progression is quicker than carries is pretty crazy. Almost like you have no idea what youre talking about.

[saintminya]

Im saying your assertion that progression is quicker than carries is pretty crazy. Almost like you have no idea what youre talking about.

I'm not the one making such blanket statements here. In fact, I never said that any run, be it progression or a m+ for kicks, is automatically faster or slower than a run hosted by self-proclaimed carriers. For all you know, one or more of those members in that carry group could be among the guildies/homies I run with.

[Dhrizzle]

Imagine a decent wow player. Someone who can carry his own weight in the game, be it pvp and/or pve. This player got shite gear. Lacks certain achivs also that is required to join groups for various content. He can either play the game and gear up & obtain relevant achivs up until he finally gets a spot to clear bosses that gives BiS/mount/titles. Lots of hours required, and some luck especially if you start out alone.

OR

he can just buy token(s) and get all of this in a couple of nights and a few weeks. Instead of doing korthia catch up gearing. instead of doing m+ after m+ with randoms were its a decent chance it all goes to hell(without your fault), join raids were you rely on 20 other people or grind BG/arena all day all night for honor & conquest.


Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?

Isn't it going to take about the same amount of time? Paying for carries doesn't get around the time-gating of raids or limits on the vault.

[Daymanmb]

I'm not the one making such blanket statements here. In fact, I never said that any run, be it progression or a m+ for kicks, is automatically faster or slower than a run hosted by self-proclaimed carriers. For all you know, one or more of those members in that carry group could be among the guildies/homies I run with.

Stop it. Youre making yourself look foolish:

I'm not the one making such blanket statements here.

The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not.

lol

[saintminya]

Just shows a lack of comprehension on your part. Those carries are still not guaranteed to be quicker than another run, such as with that example you ignored regarding my friends that do host carries in between guild runs. A carry should not be expected to go at a snail's place, but that doesn't justify your assumption that every other run is just slow trash.

Oh right, you also ignored the context of the post you quoted. The boost saved you time by skipping content, whereas you still have to sit through the whole run which is never guaranteed to take less time than someone else's run.

[Daymanmb]

Just shows a lack of comprehension on your part. Those carries are still not guaranteed to be quicker than another run, such as with that example you ignored regarding my friends that do host carries in between guild runs. A carry should not be expected to go at a snail's place, but that doesn't justify your assumption that every other run is just slow trash.

When you said, "The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not." youre saying that progression raiding takes less of a time investment than buying carries. I cant help you if you dont see the absurdity of that blanket statement.

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Oh right, you also ignored the context of the post you quoted. The boost saved you time by skipping content, whereas you still have to sit through the whole run which is never guaranteed to take less time than someone else's run.

This doesnt help your point in any way. Buying a carry is paying to skip progression.

[rhorle]

Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?

That boost though could still take weeks. Because loot is still random. The "couple nights" of M+ and "A few weeks" of Raids is the same that can be done pugging or with a guild/friends. Your easy logic is the same end result just one costs $$ and the other costs effort.

[saintminya]

When you said, "The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not." youre saying that progression raiding takes less of a time investment than buying carries. I cant help you if you dont see the absurdity of that point.

Except that is not at all what I said. Clearly you need to stop assuming so much, like how you constantly assume that a carry is guaranteed to be fast. The carry is guaranteed to clear the instance, while the time it takes to do that is variable just like with any other run.

Buying a carry isn't simply "skipping progression," it's buying yourself a passive role in it.