Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Daymanmb]

That boost though could still take weeks. Because loot is still random. The "couple nights" of M+ and "A few weeks" of Raids is the same that can be done pugging or with a guild/friends. Your easy logic is the same end result just one costs $$ and the other costs effort.

Thats what makes it p2w lol

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like how you constantly assume that a carry is guaranteed to be fast

Quote me where I said that, Ill wait... I said carries are faster than progression raiding as a counter point to what you said:

The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not.

Because thats the alternative to someone who just bought a level boost, progression raiding/gearing. Not even mentioning that a lvl boosted player is going to have to spend A LOT of time gearing up that ilvl before anyone will even consider taking them into a pug raids/dungeons.

[crusadernero]

That boost though could still take weeks. Because loot is still random. The "couple nights" of M+ and "A few weeks" of Raids is the same that can be done pugging or with a guild/friends. Your easy logic is the same end result just one costs $$ and the other costs effort.

No, it doesnt take weeks. I can literally log in now and get AOTC & all the gear I want. All I have to do is buy token(s) and pick and choose from the plethoria of boosting services available in trade and lfg channel.

Pugging? Really? Pugging in this game is a shitshow. I'll give you that m+ is ok enough for pugs, but raids? nah, come on now.

"Your easy logic is the same end result just one costs $$ and the other costs effort." You literally said it yourself, it is p2w.

[rhorle]

Thats what makes it p2w lol

If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes. Paying money for gold and then using gold for stuff is not pay to win. What if I buy a token, spend a bunch on battle pets, then use in-game earned gold to buy a boost. Did I pay to win the gear the from the boost?

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No, it doesnt take weeks. I can literally log in now and get AOTC & all the gear I want. All I have to do is buy token(s) and pick and choose from the plethoria of boosting services available in trade and lfg channel.

You can do one raid a week regardless of how many tokens you buy. You'll be limited on loot you can get and bad luck will still mean you might not get it all. You can pay for unlimited M+ carries a week but you still might not have good luck and get the gear you need. You are limited to one Vault reward a week.

[crusadernero]

Isn't it going to take about the same amount of time? Paying for carries doesn't get around the time-gating of raids or limits on the vault.

No it doesnt. Once a raid has been fully released and the boosting guilds/Players have what they need, they start selling boosts to everyone all day everyday. Meaning, you can go in a raid with level gear and go out with almost fully epic geared. If you want, you can pay for that option too.

The more bosses you kill in vault = better gear. So, shorter time.

[Daymanmb]

If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes.

Okay, great. You admit wow is p2w for the second time. Thank you.

[crusadernero]

If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes. Paying money for gold and then using gold for stuff is not pay to win. What if I buy a token, spend a bunch on battle pets, then use in-game earned gold to buy a boost. Did I pay to win the gear the from the boost?

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You can do one raid a week regardless of how many tokens you buy. You'll be limited on loot you can get and bad luck will still mean you might not get it all. You can pay for unlimited M+ carries a week but you still might not have good luck and get the gear you need. You are limited to one Vault reward a week.

You can literally pay for getting the gear that drops. Some runs they dont even force you to pay for that either, its just extra service lol. You dont clear Sanctum without atleast a few gear pieces drops for you. If not, you atleast got very good vault gear coming your way.

And they do spend money on these runs. Blizzard just hides it behind a token. Players gotta buy that token so they can get that boost. If buying 1 bear ass from blizz store was required as a currency instead of token, people would buy that too.

Real money is used on token for gold. Said gold is used to boost & carries. Its not complicated.

[rhorle]

Okay, great. You admit wow is p2w. Thank you.

I've always said WoW is pay to win because of the level boost existing. WoW is not pay to win from tokens though as it is buying gold, a micro transaction. What you do with that gold is up to you. If Blizzard created gold for the token then it would be an entirely different situation.

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You can literally pay for getting the gear that drops. Some runs they dont even force you to pay for that either, its just extra service lol. You dont clear Sanctum without atleast a few gear pieces drops for you. If not, you atleast got very good vault gear coming your way.

It is still RNG and having gear funneled to you doesn't guarantee you get all BIS that run.

[Daymanmb]

I've always said WoW is pay to win because of the level boost existing. WoW is not pay to win from tokens though as it is buying gold, a micro transaction. What you do with that gold is up to you. If Blizzard created gold for the token then it would be an entirely different situation.

No, no no... you literally just said twice:

If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes.

Your easy logic is the same end result just one costs $$ and the other costs effort.

What an individual does with the gold makes zero difference to the fact that anyone who does buy gold through blizzard can pay for power.

What if you paid real money for an extra item slot in RIFT but never filled it? RIFT wouldnt be p2w by your logic lol.

[crusadernero]

I've always said WoW is pay to win because of the level boost existing. WoW is not pay to win from tokens though as it is buying gold, a micro transaction. What you do with that gold is up to you. If Blizzard created gold for the token then it would be an entirely different situation.

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It is still RNG and having gear funneled to you doesn't guarantee you get all BIS that run.

No, but it certainly helps being the sole person that gets to pick gear from a raid with lots of bosses. All the while doing nothing.

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I've always said WoW is pay to win because of the level boost existing. WoW is not pay to win from tokens though as it is buying gold, a micro transaction. What you do with that gold is up to you. If Blizzard created gold for the token then it would be an entirely different situation.

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I can use a level boost but its up to me what I do with it. I can boost a character and never play him again. I can boost a character and end up using him as a bank character. I can boost a character only for running low lvl raids/dungeons. See - its up to me what I do with the boosted character.

[Daymanmb]

I can use a level boost but its up to me what I do with it. I can boost a character and never play him again. I can boost a character and end up using him as a bank character. I can boost a character only for running low lvl raids/dungeons. See - its up to me what I do with the boosted character.

Youre out here killing it!

[rhorle]

No, no no... you literally just said twice:

Nothing you quoted contradicts what I said. All "legal" carries are conducted with gold, not $$. Buying gold with $$ and then using that gold for stuff doesn't make everything pay to win. If what an individual does makes zero difference then carries for gold can't be pay to win. Because the action makes no difference. You are making the argument that simply buying the gold is the part you are paying to win.

Wealth may be a epeen tool but it certainly doesn't make you win the game. If you paid money for an extra item slot it would be pay to win. It doesn't matter if you filled it because it is a direct transaction. The key difference you are overlooking for some silly reason.

[Daymanmb]

Nothing you quoted contradicts what I said. All "legal" carries are conducted with gold, not $$. Buying gold with $$ and then using that gold for stuff doesn't make everything pay to win. If what an individual does makes zero difference then carries for gold can't be pay to win. Because the action makes no difference. You are making the argument that simply buying the gold is the part you are paying to win.

Wealth may be a epeen tool but it certainly doesn't make you win the game. If you paid money for an extra item slot it would be pay to win. It doesn't matter if you filled it because it is a direct transaction. The key difference you are overlooking for some silly reason.

But buying gold with a direct transaction that can be used for power, isnt p2w lmao. Dear lord...

Im curious, what do you think "make you win the game"?

[rhorle]

No, but it certainly helps being the sole person that gets to pick gear from a raid with lots of bosses. All the while doing nothing.

And? It helps. That still doesn't mean you are able to fill all of the gear you need unless extremely lucky. The same thing can happen with a guild run when others don't need the gear.

I can use a level boost but its up to me what I do with it. I can boost a character and never play him again. I can boost a character and end up using him as a bank character. I can boost a character only for running low lvl raids/dungeons. See - its up to me what I do with the boosted character.

It doesn't matter if you used the level boost or not. You still paid for power in a direct transaction. You are honestly saying that having gold but not using it equivalent to buying gear. Why do people have to buy a raid/dungeon carry if merely owning gold provides a win? Exactly.

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But buying gold with a direct transaction that can be used for power, isnt p2w lmao. Dear lord...

Did you pay for the gear? Was the gold created by Blizzard for that money? Distinctions matter.

[Daymanmb]

Did you pay for the gear? Was the gold created by Blizzard for that money? Distinctions matter.

Of course you did. With the gold you bought from blizzard. All gold is created by blizzard lol

[Deneios]

If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes. Paying money for gold and then using gold for stuff is not pay to win. What if I buy a token, spend a bunch on battle pets, then use in-game earned gold to buy a boost. Did I pay to win the gear the from the boost?

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You can do one raid a week regardless of how many tokens you buy. You'll be limited on loot you can get and bad luck will still mean you might not get it all. You can pay for unlimited M+ carries a week but you still might not have good luck and get the gear you need. You are limited to one Vault reward a week.

You are all too focused on one instance of the definition of P2W. PW2 also includes systems that time gate players so they can sell you a skip. Like rushing a foundry in warframe or anyother F2P game. Blizz themself are not selling you a skip but they are endorsing it because it sells tokens thus they benefit from it. Blizz is playing in the both pools of P2P and F2P.

[crusadernero]

And? It helps. That still doesn't mean you are able to fill all of the gear you need unless extremely lucky. The same thing can happen with a guild run when others don't need the gear.



It doesn't matter if you used the level boost or not. You still paid for power in a direct transaction. You are honestly saying that having gold but not using it equivalent to buying gear. Why do people have to buy a raid/dungeon carry if merely owning gold provides a win? Exactly.

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Did you pay for the gear? Was the gold created by Blizzard for that money? Distinctions matter.

Whats so complicated to grasp here?

If boosting a character from 1-50 is pw2, then getting boosts/carries bought from gold(that you obtained via the token) is also p2w.

As a fresh lvl 60 you have two choices:
1. Play the game. Gear up slowly but steadily. You do m+ after m+ run, hoping you dont group with asshats and that your gear drops. You also do endless bgs & arenas cause it takes forever to get any relevant pvp gear in SL, all the while hoping you play with somewhat decent players(lol). You also farm korthia like a madman hoping to get relevant gear pieces that you can slooooowly upgrade until they are finally considered OK gear.

Once you have done all of this - you can start entering raids. You can either rely on pugs(lol) to clear the whole raid or you find a decent guild that you get along with that also has a raid schedule that fits you(sometimes easier said then done). Here you compete with 10+ people for gear and you might not clear the raid most nights.

OR

You buy Blizzard wow token that lets you buy carries directly after reaching lvl 60 with scrub leveling gear, legally sanctioned by Blizzard. They want you to do this. They want you to buy these tokens and spend the gold on boosts & carries.

As a boosted 1-50 character ingores, neglect and skip the whole leveling content(theres alot of it), a lvl 60 boosted character is the same.

The fresh level 60 now saved him weeks of legwork to even be somewhat competetive. Instead of actually playing the game and obtain these things, he just gets the boost. Cause why shouldnt he? The game dictates you should have X/Y achiv to participate. The game reward people that get these achivs(mounts/titles). The game facilitates it all with the token.

[rhorle]

Of course you did. With the gold you bought from blizzard. All gold is created by blizzard lol

If that is the argument then the game is pay to win because of the subscription. People have to earn the gold through normal in-game methods in order for others to get gold with the token. It is not created just because someone buys a token from Blizzard. Distinctions matter even if you refused to see them.

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Blizz themself are not selling you a skip but they are endorsing it because it sells tokens thus they benefit from it. Blizz is playing in the both pools of P2P and F2P.

They endorse it because it has people playing their game. Selling spots in your raid has never been an issue from Blizzard. These things happened prior to the token being introduced. Paying to win is entirely focused on the definition and how it applies to the game in question. Because not all games are equal. They game isn't even free to play, ignoring the starter account and its limitations, so they can't be in the "Free to play" pool. Lol.

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If boosting a character from 1-50 is pw2, then getting boosts/carries bought from gold(that you obtained via the token) is also p2w.

The difference is one is directly bought. The other is not. If you pay someone gold to level you 1-50 as you follow them around (or to aoe farm or dungeon run) then that isn't pay to win. It is using a in-game currency to get a boost. Paying directly for power from Blizzard (or a currency just to enable shop transactions) is Pay to Win. Since gold is the universal currency and is not created by Blizzard with tokens then it is not pay to win.

[saintminya]

Quote me where I said that, Ill wait... I said carries are faster than progression raiding as a counter point to what you said:

I simply said it didn't save you time, because unlike the boost it isn't a content skip and you wouldn't know ahead of time which potential group would clear first. The carry isn't guaranteeing that you'll get your desired gear any quicker, just as it isn't guaranteed to go faster than if you decided to run with friends or with unpaid randos. Just because you are undergeared and inexperienced after that boost doesn't mean the same can be said about who you run your dungeons or raids with.

I suppose there's no point having a discussion with someone who bases everything off their own assumptions, or makes up dialogue for other posters though.

[crusadernero]

If that is the argument then the game is pay to win because of the subscription. People have to earn the gold through normal in-game methods in order for others to get gold with the token. It is not created just because someone buys a token from Blizzard. Distinctions matter even if you refused to see them.

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They endorse it because it has people playing their game. Selling spots in your raid has never been an issue from Blizzard. These things happened prior to the token being introduced. Paying to win is entirely focused on the definition and how it applies to the game in question. Because not all games are equal. They game isn't even free to play, ignoring the starter account and its limitations, so they can't be in the "Free to play" pool. Lol.

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The difference is one is directly bought. The other is not. If you pay someone gold to level you 1-50 as you follow them around (or to aoe farm or dungeon run) then that isn't pay to win. It is using a in-game currency to get a boost. Paying directly for power from Blizzard (or a currency just to enable shop transactions) is Pay to Win. Since gold is the universal currency and is not created by Blizzard with tokens then it is not pay to win.

No, the game is not p2w because of the sub. The sub is there to generate revenue for Blizzard so they can keep on making new content. The sub also opens up for you to take part in the world they have created. Beyond that, the sub does nothing. Thats like saying paying for a game at all is p2w. I bought New World a week ago, is that p2w?

That Blizzard has box price, sub and store features is them just triple dipping.

The token is there to buy these carries & boosts. Its not a item people buy to buy flasks, enchants or other various normal stuff. Its there for boosting and a select few insane prised mounts. A "normal" player that just plays the game dont suddenly buys tokens for these things, theres no need.

You keep going on and on about Blizzard not selling boosts directly, but this token does just that. Nothing else. It serves no other purpose. It brings nothing good to the game. Its there so Blizzard can earn more from less. They didnt bother fixing the boosting, botting & gold trading of old. They just legalized it and called it the day.

It has literally no other purpose in game right now than to incentivise people to buy boosts with gold. Atleast BfA had a brontomount you could waste tokens on.

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I simply said it didn't save you time, because unlike the boost it isn't a content skip and you wouldn't know ahead of time which potential group would clear first. The carry isn't guaranteeing that you'll get your desired gear any quicker, just as it isn't guaranteed to go faster than if you decided to run with friends or with unpaid randos. Just because you are undergeared and inexperienced after that boost doesn't mean the same can be said about who you run your dungeons or raids with.

I suppose there's no point having a discussion with someone who bases everything off their own assumptions, or makes up dialogue for other posters though.

That requires said player to actually have friends/guild that are capable of clearing raids. That also can play when you can play. That also are willing to gear up and experience the content in normal fashion.

I bet alot of wow players often enough plays this game solo and heavily rely on pugs. Especially when entering higher m+ keys and doing HC(and mythic) raids. Since the cool rewards is hidden behind certain content of decent difficulty, its easier and quicker to buy boosts.

If you enter wow mid xpac its much, much easier and quicker to buy a couple of tokens and get carried every wednesday for few weeks than actually playing the game. To actual play the game, theres alot of X factors that comes into play. Boosting, theres nothing.

[rhorle]

You keep going on and on about Blizzard not selling boosts directly, but this token does just that. Nothing else. It serves no other purpose. It brings nothing good to the game. Its there so Blizzard can earn more from less. They didnt bother fixing the boosting, botting & gold trading of old. They just legalized it and called it the day.

Nothing else? So the only thing you can use gold on is a raid or dungeon carry? Why did people buy gold before carries became "mainstream"? Boosting has never been a problem so there is nothing to fix. They take action against botting and gold trading. The gold farmers used to advertise with dead bodies in cities spelling out websites. You are re-writing things or selectively remembering.