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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Genn launching a full assault on the Horde in attempt to kill the leader of the faction in Stormheim started the conflict... and no less during a world ending invasion. Even if Sylvanas wanted a fight with the Alliance, no one would have supported it if not for what the Alliance did.(especially since Genn and Rogers received no punishment for their actions).

    Take the Wrathgate for instance, those responsible ended up dead. Genn and Rogers not even stripped of their authority. :/
    You're talking about the alternate version of BFA. The one that is written and has some knowledge.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Genn launching a full assault on the Horde in attempt to kill the leader of the faction in Stormheim started the conflict... and no less during a world ending invasion. Even if Sylvanas wanted a fight with the Alliance, no one would have supported it if not for what the Alliance did.(especially since Genn and Rogers received no punishment for their actions).

    Take the Wrathgate for instance, those responsible ended up dead. Genn and Rogers not even stripped of their authority. :/
    Except neither Genn nor Rogers have the authority to declare war on behalf of the Alliance, nor did Anduin do it given that the reprimanded them for their actions. Regardless, we know Sylvanas did not attack Teldrassil because of Genn's assault; it is only one in a number of grievances listed to Saurfang, and the ultimate reason she gave for the attack was to protect future generations from future conflict, preempting the Alliance's next assault, not retaliating for a previous one. Her real reason, of course, was because she wanted to start a costly war to send souls to the Maw.

    I really don't see, logically, how one can liken Genn's actions to Putress, but only have one of those actions be the start of war (particularly since that war started about a year after the act was committed).

  3. #223
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    remove Anduin the sooner the better

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Genn launching a full assault on the Horde in attempt to kill the leader of the faction in Stormheim started the conflict... and no less during a world ending invasion. Even if Sylvanas wanted a fight with the Alliance, no one would have supported it if not for what the Alliance did.(especially since Genn and Rogers received no punishment for their actions).

    Take the Wrathgate for instance, those responsible ended up dead. Genn and Rogers not even stripped of their authority. :/
    I prefer to think that Varian declaring war on the Undercity is the declaration of the 4th war and it really started in Cata
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  4. #224
    World of Orccraft is ally bias? suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

  5. #225
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    Not even that, Blizzard outright admitted they prefer "writing" the "Horde" (meaning the orcs and forsaken), and for the Alliance they just default to humans because it's "easier to write".
    did u miss entire Anduin arc since MoP started?
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Genn launching a full assault on the Horde in attempt to kill the leader of the faction in Stormheim started the conflict... and no less during a world ending invasion. Even if Sylvanas wanted a fight with the Alliance, no one would have supported it if not for what the Alliance did.(especially since Genn and Rogers received no punishment for their actions).

    Take the Wrathgate for instance, those responsible ended up dead. Genn and Rogers not even stripped of their authority. :/
    Warsong kept attacking night elfs since Vanilla and i dont see Horde disbanding the Clan or putting any sanctions on them. Hell, its even revealed in lore that Thrall was thinking about going to Warsong and telling them to stop this bullshit but was too scared of the orcish backlash so he chose to do nothing as long as night elfs dont coerce Alliance into going full out war for that. Which they never did btw.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Except neither Genn nor Rogers have the authority to declare war on behalf of the Alliance, nor did Anduin do it given that the reprimanded them for their actions. Regardless, we know Sylvanas did not attack Teldrassil because of Genn's assault; it is only one in a number of grievances listed to Saurfang, and the ultimate reason she gave for the attack was to protect future generations from future conflict, preempting the Alliance's next assault, not retaliating for a previous one. Her real reason, of course, was because she wanted to start a costly war to send souls to the Maw.

    I really don't see, logically, how one can liken Genn's actions to Putress, but only have one of those actions be the start of war (particularly since that war started about a year after the act was committed).
    The factions were already in open conflict before War of Thorns. So open they needed a ceasefire even for something as benign as a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. The fact that that Blizzard avoids using the war label there and instead desperately tries to pin the entire war on Sylvanas alone is just yet another case of Blizzard wanting its cake (in this case, to pretend that Alliance is an infallible god's gift to Azeroth that can do no wrong) and eat it too (in this case, to continue wallowing in their storytelling ineptitude that causes them to write stories about Alliance's acts of aggression over and over again, even though it clashes with their goal for the faction and consequently necessitates they brush those stories under the carpet).
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The factions were already in open conflict before War of Thorns. So open they needed a ceasefire even for something as benign as a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. The fact that that Blizzard avoids using the war label there and instead desperately tries to pin the entire war on Sylvanas alone is just yet another case of Blizzard wanting its cake (in this case, to pretend that Alliance is an infallible god's gift to Azeroth that can do no wrong) and eat it too (in this case, to continue wallowing in their storytelling ineptitude that causes them to write stories about Alliance's acts of aggression over and over again, even though it clashes with their goal for the faction and consequently necessitates they brush those stories under the carpet).
    cross out Alliance and put Anduin and it's perfect.

    Edit.
    Your two main cakes.
    The cake (The Horde loses almost everyone their most beloved characters and most iconic traditions) and eat it (Anduin told them that the alliance is also bad so you have to feel good)
    The cake (Show us the shattered Alliance and a genocide of one of their races) and eat it (Anduine says that revenge is wrong and on a twitter they say they won so it has to feel good.)
    Last edited by geco; 2021-06-09 at 12:54 AM.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The factions were already in open conflict before War of Thorns. So open they needed a ceasefire even for something as benign as a peaceful meeting of civilians on neutral ground. The fact that that Blizzard avoids using the war label there and instead desperately tries to pin the entire war on Sylvanas alone is just yet another case of Blizzard wanting its cake (in this case, to pretend that Alliance is an infallible god's gift to Azeroth that can do no wrong) and eat it too (in this case, to continue wallowing in their storytelling ineptitude that causes them to write stories about Alliance's acts of aggression over and over again, even though it clashes with their goal for the faction and consequently necessitates they brush those stories under the carpet).
    That's a fair point, though the Alliance-Horde War was considered started after the Wrathgate, even though the Alliance openly attacked the Horde in Howling Fjord and Alliance soldiers were surrendering to Horde troops in Borean Tundra. After 7.1, there were no real Alliance/Horde hostilities to my recollection until 8.0 with Azerite discovered in Silithus. The cease-fire you mentioned even specified the factions were not at war at the time, and Sylvanas avoided killing the humans on the field of Arathi to avoid starting such a war. While there were definitely hostilities after the Alliance-Horde war ended, starting in Ashran the very next expansion, open war did not begin until the War of Thorns with Sylvanas' attack.

    Whether that's good storytelling or not is a different matter, but canonically, two of the last three wars were started by Alliance, and the third was started by Horde.

  10. #230
    I am Murloc! Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    That's because if the Horde wins, the Alliance is destroyed, when the Alliance wins, they go "Well, don't do it again, ok?" and let the Horde keep everything they conquered, now which of these two is better for keeping the storyline going?
    Neither if the goal is to make the other just a punching bag while the other side gets triggered for years, like seriously people even write about Theramoore as a genocide despite Golden wrote Jaina wisely evacuated the city and nobody got hurt because all goes well for her.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  11. #231
    Imagine playing World of Orccraft and coming to the conclusion it's "Alliance biased"... just imagine!

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I much prefer the horde experience to the alliance. And i think the majority of the playerbase that regularly and esriously plays this game would also agree.. If the alliance was that rosy, most people would be on it.
    cmon...we all know the reason more people play horde isnt because of the ''horde experience'',the top players whent horde because of racials and everyone followed

    wasnt aliance more popular in vanila?back when horde REALLY was way ahead of aliance with both racials and shaman?that kinda clearly proves people gravitate to aliance

    and it makes sense,humans like to play...humans,its why the most popular horde race is blood elf,its by far the most human-like race

    i even did a little experiment and asked my guildies and other friends,if all else was equal what faction would they play,around 95% said aliance

    also from a roleplay view point it would also make sense those people would prefer human

    now i personaly like the horde esthetique more but my gosh...literaly no horde race looks good in transmog,tauren is the best one but that tail ruins it,humans just look good with armor on,night elves used to also look good but the new model is pure garbage,the way it...wiggles like they are drunk,they also ruined undead males

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delano View Post
    Imagine playing World of Orccraft and coming to the conclusion it's "Alliance biased"... just imagine!
    likely a bait,considering much of what they said is just demonstrably wrong
    Last edited by deenman; 2021-06-09 at 05:28 AM.

  13. #233
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    seriously people even write about Theramoore as a genocide despite Golden wrote Jaina wisely evacuated the city and nobody got hurt because all goes well for her.
    they were captured and tortured in Orgrimmar
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

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  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    I really don't see, logically, how one can liken Genn's actions to Putress, but only have one of those actions be the start of war (particularly since that war started about a year after the act was committed).
    you do realise Varian declared war in assault of undercity bcs of what Putress did, which started the war that stretched through cataclysm and pandaria and ended with Garrosh trial?

    and without Stormheim attack Sylvanas would have realy hard time to get saurfang (and many other nameless) on board...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-06-09 at 06:25 AM.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxrokur View Post
    Neither if the goal is to make the other just a punching bag while the other side gets triggered for years, like seriously people even write about Theramoore as a genocide despite Golden wrote Jaina wisely evacuated the city and nobody got hurt because all goes well for her.
    The details about Theramore aside (I haven't read many of the books, and that's where Blizz hides the story these days), but i agree with your point, faction war storylines are bad for the game, due to both the inability to properly resolve it (There must always be a Horde and Alliance, so the Alliance can never get anything for winning, and the Horde can just never win at all), and because it's zero-sum, any gains by one side will be a loss to the other, so whatever you do, half the player base will be angry about it.

    Best to stick to "Cold war" and/or the odd skirmish here and there (To keep BGs going, if that even needs a lore explanation), and center the story around NPC baddies that we can defeat without lectures about how fighting back is totally bad and all...

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Part of the ethnic discussion I figure comes down to whether sin'dorei and quel'dorei are different ethnicities. The rest really revolves around targeting a single-ethnic group counts as targeting that ethnicity. While she targeted the Sunreavers because they were Sunreavers, are there instances of sin'dorei who remained in Dalaran (outside of the Violet Hold) after the Purge? I honestly don't know of any, and regardless of whether it was ethnically motivated, taking the actions of a few individuals and then prescribing that punishment on al others that share the same quality (in this case, Sunreaver-ness) is the same type of logic that is the same stereotyping that is used in ethnic attacks. She even murders several Sunreavers before Aethas says a single word to her on the matter. Now, I don't disagree Jaina was fully within her authority to perform these actions, but she is clearly punishing an entire group for something most of them had no involvement in.
    While this is true it misses an important detail. Jaina did not know which or how many of the Sunreavers were responsible and they weren't inclined to help. Hence she expelled all of them. Aethas witnessed the whole thing and could have told Jaina or the Council, but instead, when asked he reacted with snide indignation and lies. That was what caused the full-on purge, killing his guards was quite rash, I agree, but the situation was dire, the Divine Bell was an extremely dangerous object that should have never fallen into the hands of a madman like Garrosh.

    In the moment that Aethas decided that he'd rather keep his mouth shut then anger Garrosh he became just as responsible for the Purge as Jaina and Vereesa. He assumed he was still talking to the soft and nice Jaina Proudmoore that wanted peace, missing the changes she had gone through thanks to Garrosh, and figured her wrath would be easy to deal with. Turns out, he was wrong.

    This decision by the Sunreaver leader meant that Jaina's only recourse was to expell all Sunreavers so they could not abuse Dalaran resources to help Garrosh anymore. The fact that this whole event ended bloody was a mixture of the Silver Covenant taking the chance to dispose of personal rivals and the Sunreavers fighting back, because they didn't really understand what was going on. Jaina herself only killed Aethas guards, rashly as I admited, and those that directly attacked her.

    In the end the whole Purge was a chain of unfortunate decisions with Jaina, who had not even had time to work through the grief and trauma of her city being nuked and her friends killed, in the middle.
    Garrosh pushed her too far and the only reason why Orgrimmar is still standing was that Kalec and Thrall managed to talk her down. Pushing her again had the expected result and this time there were no friendly faces to talk her down, instead she had Vereesa who egged her on so she could have her own revenge. It all comes down to Garrosh who is the real guilty party here. Jaina is responsible and she freely admits that, but none of it all would have happened if not for Garrosh's warmongering and bloodlust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The reason this is the cause of argument is demonstrated neatly in the pivot you are doing in this very response. Your first instinct wasn't to explain why Jaina did what she did - why she had reasons to attack as she did, but to first pretend it never happened and then use post-hoc reasoning for why she did it. It's a representative of a sentiment in the Alliance playerbase that doesn't actually want to ditch the sainthood. They'll be happy when it lets them win and be the main characters in neutral expansions or 'win' the faction war when it rears its head, but will retreat from any acknowledgement when their characters actually are proactive and do things in favor of sophistry.
    Well, technically it didn't happen or at least not as pronounced, since the book sets the canon, but I very much prefer Jaina to not be a saint. I simply don't feel it is right to demonize her for logical actions and that does happen a lot in this forum. For many Horde players Jaina is on a level with Sylvanas (Yes, I fulfilled your law again) through actions like the Purge and when she simply defends her allies and city and that is just not a fair comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You've at least moved that to some kind of analysis - "yes, Jaina did do those things, but she was right to do them because of reasons X, Y and Z". That's the kind of arguments we should be having and these arguments are actually interesting because what you say is set up in the narrative and is also presented as a valid perspective. Jaina does know what kind of person Garrosh is and now that Varian has declared war and Garrosh has staked territorial claims on Kalimdor, much as she wants peace, it is sensible for her to also deploy troops to defend herself and support her allies, to not do so would be negligent. In this conflict, the characters have personal, practical motives for doing what it is they do. The reason Tides of War is as crap as it is is because it throws all of this out the info - it never acknowledges what Jaina did, yet keeps its consequences - no one in the Horde brings it up, because to do so would imply Garrosh is motivated by anything except his all puppy diet, yet at the same time, no one Alliance side brings it up, so Jaina is denied being a politician making compromises and grappling with the clash between her peaceful ideals and her care for her allies in favor of being a meek damsel waiting for the countdown to hit tragedy o' clock. Both sides lose out from the simplification of what was previously a more complex conflict.
    I agree that it's stupid to retcon existing game lore. The unfortunate truth is that the Alliance had to be somewhat neutered in this story, they had to become the good guys because otherwise the Horde would have been destroyed. A "non-saint" faction would have never allowed the Horde to get back to strength after they supported Garrosh until the very end. A "normal" faction would have at the very least subjugated the Horde and an "evil" faction would have wiped them out when they were weak. But the game's reality of two-factions precluded any of this to come to pass, so the only way was for the Alliance to be super nice and forgive them for everything.

    Basically the entire problem was writting the story into this direction in the first place to please those that wish back the WC2 Horde, they should have known that it could never end in any satisfactory conclusion. The fact they did not actually learn anything from that and chose to deliberatedly do it again in BFA is unbelievable.

    I would very much prefer a more cynical Jaina (which we got somewhat in BFA) but since Danuser had to have his 2 full-on Sylvanas expansions we are again forced to have a "saint"-Alliance, because anything but total and unreserved forgiveness would mark the end of the Horde and that just isn't going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Also, while this isn't remembered as well nowadays, I'd wholeheartedly encourage you to try and seek out talk on Jaina before Cataclysm or especially Mists of Pandaria, because you'd find the way she's treated by the Alliance to have been exactly the way the Horde fanbase now thinks of Baine or what @geco and many others Alliance-side say of Anduin and for exactly the same perfectly correct reasons - no one but the one being appeased likes an appeaser.
    I mean, they aren't wrong. Jaina was very Horde-appeasing in the past. Hell, she sacrificed her father for them. I am not surprised people felt she was betraying the Alliance or that she was at least too soft. That is what makes it so understandable that she goes completely wacked when the Horde under Garrosh destroys her city and kills her friends. She felt betrayed, felt all the sacrifices she made to keep the peace spit on and thus she snapped.
    It's this development that makes her interesting as a character and while she has gotten back some softness in BFA she is still quite ready to vaporize people that are a danger to her of her friends. That trauma of Theramore never really left her and Baine was very close to learn that the hard way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    sadly, Blizzard will go to great lengths to white wash her very soon which will start in November when her book gets released.

    no doubt Sylvanas simps will say You see!? Sylvanas was never rotten to the core!!!
    Yes... as long as Danuser is responsible for the story she will end this expansion as a hero. Several genocides, sick experiments and every other crime will be forgiven, because Anduin somewhere found the "Ranger General" in her and he will turn her back into a a good person, no matter how many Alliance characters have to be sacrificed for it.
    Maybe we will have Tyrande lay down her life for the Banshee just as a final insult to the Night Elves and Alliance.

    The thought sickens me and it's inevitable, because Danuser doesn't care for any character but Sylvanas.

  17. #237
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    until horde can raid stormwind like alliance can on weekly basis raid orgrimmar, and ur high king turned to loot piniata like our warchief became, u seriously can't claim they have horde bias, it is a bias of fucking horde
    literally the highest horde rank and the most important city exist to be fucked weekly, where can horde do that to alliance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DemonHunter18 View Post
    sadly, Blizzard will go to great lengths to white wash her very soon which will start in November when her book gets released.

    no doubt Sylvanas simps will say You see!? Sylvanas was never rotten to the core!!!
    fuck
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    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    cmon...we all know the reason more people play horde isnt because of the ''horde experience'',the top players whent horde because of racials and everyone followed

    wasnt aliance more popular in vanila?back when horde REALLY was way ahead of aliance with both racials and shaman?that kinda clearly proves people gravitate to aliance

    and it makes sense,humans like to play...humans,its why the most popular horde race is blood elf,its by far the most human-like race

    i even did a little experiment and asked my guildies and other friends,if all else was equal what faction would they play,around 95% said aliance

    also from a roleplay view point it would also make sense those people would prefer human

    now i personaly like the horde esthetique more but my gosh...literaly no horde race looks good in transmog,tauren is the best one but that tail ruins it,humans just look good with armor on,night elves used to also look good but the new model is pure garbage,the way it...wiggles like they are drunk,they also ruined undead males
    I don't follow your logic here..., all that proves is racials advantage was not the deciding factor then, even if it may be now or at least a lot more important now which I seriously doubt. In the early days, Alliance had the lore and the attention, they won the WC1-3 wars and the horde were the villains for most of the series. Monsters weren't popular back then amongst your parents/peers, so despite the advantage of racials and shaman people picked alliance.

    Those days, story and lore mattered to a lot of people, and in case you didn't realise it, wow is the very game that introduced this "don't care" attitude towards lore and story in rpg games mainly because for so popular and modern a game, it was crap with telling it's story.. I mean who reads quests in game.. games from the late 90s including WC3 were all voiced.. so you followed the story. And now they introduce this big adventure, forcing kids who hate school and books, especially males who much prefer pictures which is why they play video games, to read.. hell no, they just skipped the quests and went to the action. This was the alliance's first advantage mitigated.


    Then during wow's lifetime it was the horde that was built up - it looked better, when the Blood elves came along, they hands down looked better than the Draenei, you wanna plug that blonde bimbo, not a half animal with hooves, tales and horns, and for a medieval type fantasy, fancy greek like beautiful buildings like Silvermoon > hi-tech SC2 borrowed assets, even though the draenei were nice (I liked the draenei, but not like the blood elves.


    The Burning Crusade Original
    I played horde then, the story was more interesting for TBC concerning both the orcs and blood elves than the Draenei, Draenei were the ones slaughtered on Draenor, there was not much to look forward to learning about them and what we got didn't pique interest that much, rather Thrall returning to his original ancestors and seeing them, that was fascinating, catching up to Kael'thas and seeing if the blood elves would make a new home in Outland, that was way more interesting. if you were a WC2 fan finding out what happened to the expedition would have made you curious, but it had zero exciting developments. you saw the Wildhammer dude, and the sons of Lothar, and nothing really interesting was happening.


    When you hit Shattrath, blood elves were attacking and instead Scryes laid down their arms and asking for help/ you mean not all blood elves were following Kael'thas and wanted to make amends for spiralling away.. that was very interesting, and drew me in a lot more than than remnant draenei.. draenei were story support, it's pretty obvious. the horde's just flat out more interesting, this is why it's more popular, this is by design, not coincidence or some inherent nature, someone put work into making this the case - or did you think faeries just magicked it into happening? So why would you think the alliance was more popular back in original class inspite of racials, but the horde now popular because of racials?

    Doesn't make sense, racials and things like that are not the deciding factor. The horde races story was just more interesting than the alliance, in TBC event he draenei, the blood elf enemies get to help the blood elves, not the other way round, as we go to the Sunwell, the blood elf home, it was very horde centric to me, and I enjoyed it a lot more than the alliance story lines. Even Illidan was far more blood elf skewed, with most of the DH trainees you kill and address being blood elves, it was like the night elf ones barely existed.

    The Naaru, seemed more interested in the blood elves than the Draenei throughout that story, even though the canon opened up the Naaru and the Draenei, making the draenei more interesting, this wasn't the focus of the story, they were plot points to help the blood elves and stop the legion aligned blood elves. So little delved into or centred on the draenei and their Eredar origin - which the sotry could have showed much more of seeing the legion is the one lead by Draenei in their original Eredar name.

    If we had fought Kil'jaeden on an Argus system world or location tied to the draenei instead of the blood elves, then you could refute teh observation. Maybe it's cos I play horde, but I felt connected to all of the story of outland as a horde BElf toon or orc toon, while on the alliance, I only felt that connection some of the time, I was more involved in others' matters.

    Wrath of the Lich King
    Hit WotLK, again, somehow the orcs got a far more interesting role, it appeared to me that the attack on undercity was more to show the horde dealing with Putris than it was the alliance doing anything, as nothing results from that attack for them. Sylvanas was surprisingly not as interesting as Garrosh and Thrall, but the Sunreaver v Silver Covenant was horde centric, since high elves were part of the blood elf racial storyline, that focus was all horde race. Kirin'tor affairs were framed in their light rather than humans.

    Cataclysm
    Cataclysm, had Thrall the main hero, we find out his elevation to Aspect stand in, and how he gets to save the Dragon soul, as a horde player I identify far more with him and thus the main thrust of the story line. Vashj'ir you'd have presumed would have been night elf focused, but that race was severely minimised concerning a substantial portion of their history, and goblins, the new race, had a sub-race with more focus. Goblins introduced with Worgen had far more extensive presence, and their story was much involved. Even though the worgen start was very well done, so was the goblins, but the goblins had Azshara redone for them, they were involved in Stonetalon, Felwood, , Barrens, they had a far greater role than the alliance.

    When I went through the Kalimdor quests on both sides, I felt far more powerful and in control, the alliance felt rubbish and jokes. When I tried the alliance side of the story, the horde felt super threatening, the night elves were laughable, they seemed as scared and oppressed as the WC1 and 2 humans were, which was a little surprising, given that it was the orcs that were more in awe of them in WC3, and they were supposedly the super boost for the alliance.

    the Draenei played almost zero role in fighting a marauding orc army that were again going to visit upon their new friends and new homes the sort of warmongering that destroyed their race, yet they hardly make a show. Wester plaguelands, Hillsbrad, all of the later zone quests in EK, were far more centred on horde races. The forsaken story was the best of cataclysm original races revamped, and I enjoyed it the most, WPL was a song to the forsaken's strength and victory. Does anyone even remember the story for Dwarves and Gnomes? yeh, that's how interesting they were.

    Mists of Pandaria
    MoP was all about Garrosh, the horde going bad again, and whiles it seemed it favoured the alliance because we were the villains, actually, we were the focus of the story, there was much more involvement on how we viewed things and dealt with Garrosh, than what the alliance was doing. It was the story of us banding together and stopping our Warchief. Varian and the alliance just seemed support cast, what they did didn't really matter but they had to have some role. The Anduin storyline was a little interesting, but Pandaria felt a lot more horde than alliance..sorry, maybe its because the pandas were furry, maybe it's because of the heavy Vol'jin influence that had skewed them red, .

    Warlords Of Draenor
    Warlords of Draenor was all about the iron horde, , while the draenei did play a role, on the alliance side, and you saw their attack on them, it was all about the iron horde, although this time the blood elves come to aid the draenei, it is the Legion and iron horde that the real trouble an d it just felt more horde centred. The story of Nagrand, the feel of the Arrakkoa, the Sabaeron, it was lovely to see. Draenor was the orc homeworld, with orc lore, the Gronn, orc engineering, - it was also the source of orc fatigue and it ended the TBC - WoD a 5 expansion focus.

    I was also sick of orcs by this time.

    Legion
    Legion was the first time an alliance race was pretty much the centre and the horde a back seat, but legion felt more a thing for Legion, till this day, Suramar still feels like night elves to me, even though the nightborne joined the horde, but while I was questing, Suramar Azsuna, Val'sharah and Broken shore were 100% night elf and thus alliance based stuff. Stormheim being Vrykul felt very alliance too, even though no one on the islands were aligned to either faction. only Highmountain felt horde. I came to see the Nightborne more as Kaldorei version of what the blood elves had rather than like blood elves, it was full of night elf moon symbols, night elf statues, night elf looking NPCs, night elven arcane sabers, night elf history - the alliance won this one for the first tie in my opinion in terms of racial focus, and who was the centre of it.

    Battle For Azeroth
    In BFA, it's a mixed bag, at first the horde seemed much more grand, Zuldazar was much nicer than Kul'tiras, but Kul'tiras had more charm, i guess because of WC2/3 and Jaina's story felt more meaningful than Talanji's, although Rastakhan's death, the attack on Dazar'alor made the horde more of the focus, something unusual happened, the alliance seemed competent and actually dangerous I think for the first time in Wow.. the way they were written to out manoeuvre the horde made the Zandalari for all their history seem rather weak.. compared to the alliance anyway, despite the spectacular opening scenes we got over the alliance.

    Then there was Darkshore, and Tyrande's power up also in favour of the alliance, so to Was Naz'jatar, and Wrathion feels more alliance than horde. however, the War of thorns was totally horde centric, so maybe they were trying to make up for the horde winning both wars, the horde has never felt as powerful as it did when Sylvanas utterly disgraces and out manoeuvres the night elves, totally destroying them, and she felt the victor in Lordaeron more so than the alliance - so maybe that's why the alliance had to look good in 8.1? 8.3 felt neither horde nor alliance. but 8.2 definitely felt alliance with all the night elf lore, and the naga stuff. that stuff feels more night elven than blood elven. When we were shown the naga and Illidan in WC3 TFT, it felt like the blood elves joining up with naughty night elves rather than the other way round. when I saw Nazjatar, Lor'themar and the blood elves felt like been caught up in a night elf story, and Thalyssra the night elf representative on the horde, with Shandris the one on the alliance, it felt very alliance centric. And the story was all about the story of the Night elf former Empress turned Naga empress and night elf issues, which is why it was surprising not to see more kaldorei involvement, but then, when you get blood elves players to feel more night elven, it's probably enough. You could claim that is evidence of horde centrism, as even clear alliance race themes instead choose to focus on horde characters.. but I think that's going to far, seeing that it is Nightborne's obvious kaldorei connection and the blood elves kaldorei history that is used here, it instead paints the horde characters in terms of an alliance race, not the other way around.

    8.3 surprised me in the lack of void elf and Mag'har orc involvement, I thought they'd dominate this one, but when you think about it, the void elves' void stuff is more focused in the stars on the twisting nether side, than the old gods. The old gods is the part they successful resist in order to tap the power that is in the cosmos. At least that's how I view it, as such they won't be particularly more involved than any race. the Mag'har seemed intertwined with the dark Naaru, after Shadowmoon orcs have essentially been influenced by it for many generations. Again, not really old god related.

    What this Means
    Simple, the horde has had the better ride, but you only need look at the alliance - they look lame, their feel lame, and when you play through their storylines, it's lame. Maybe we've changed, and we now consider brutal and evil things cool rather than horrific, and as such the alliance feels boring to people like me.

    But then people like me are in the majority on this game, so the horde that services that will be more popular. Has the better assets on the horde (i.e. cooler stuff) swayed many a folk, who knows.. I don't think I'd have cared for the horde if I didn't like the blood elves so much. I finally got a race I could relate to and it was amazing, the best in the game,. Maybe it should have been alliance, but it was given tot he horde and i think the reason it looks so good is because it's on the horde.. I think they tried harder to make the blood elves attractive to make the horde attractive, and those who keep harping on about we should have had high elves instead ( I don't grudge them having high elves now), but they fail to realise the only reason blood elves are so desirable now is because they were were going to join the horde.

    They'd have looked a lot worse if they joined the alliance. You alliance high elf fanboys actually owe the horde for this. However, I think the horde focus was justified because of the state of the game in classic, so can we really call it bias?
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-06-09 at 12:52 PM.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Then perhaps the Alliance should stop attacking the Horde and giving them anything to disproportionately respond to in the first place? Food for thought.
    Or perhaps the Horde should stop trying to conquer the planet and/or wipe out all sentient life every time when nothing else is around to kill. Food for thought. Or perhaps the Horde should have been wiped out three times over by now if not for the game mechanics protecting it from the consequences of it's actions. Food for thought.
    Oh and btw. love how you excuse murdering civilians as a response to attacking military ships of a known mass murderer. Not that I expected you to have a rational opinion on any matter concerning the Horde, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    What criminals? There was only one Sunreaver agent, as per War Crimes (not that Jaina had any evidence to begin with, as all she had was a portal created by a member of the Reliquary). Meaning that she engaged in collective punishment against civilian population. To whom she ascribed guilt based on them "just happening to be" Blood Elves. To try to negate the ethnic aspect of the Purge is ludicrous. The best thing is that even if you want to go down this rabbit hole you're left with Jaina targeting them because they were Sunreavers. I.e. her performing a political cleansing instead. Which, you know, isn't any better.
    As I pointed out above. It might have been only one agent, but the decision of Aethas to lie about it meant that Jaina could only assume that all Sunreavers were part of the conspiracy and could not be trusted. If he had done his duty and made the right call to help Jaina then all of the Purge could have been avoided. But he didn't care about the people that might die if Garrosh got the bell, he only cared about himself and the Blood Elves and that ironically lead to the Purge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    While it indeed wouldn't be a war crime, it'd still fall under crimes against peace instead. You're left with a crime under international law either way. Which, again, isn't any better.
    It would be a diplomatic incident yes, but as I have pointed out several times: Sylvanas doesn't get to play that card. You don't do what she did and then cry foul when someone holds you responsible for it. That the Horde made her Warchief despite all this shows only how deeply flawed that faction is, it doesn't make anything Genn did a crime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Point out where Garrosh ever bothered to check on the issue and learned about that in the first place.
    How does that make it better? Genn at least got scolded, Sylvanas transgressions are just ignored, because we know very well how Garrosh deals with insubordination and we can't let something bad happen to our only important Horde character with sex appeal, can we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yeah, no. It's not that the Horde players are mixing up anything here, it's just yet another case of Alliance posters like you being ignorant even about Alliance lore. The High King may not be a political leader like the Warchief, but he's the supreme commander of the Alliance troops given by other Alliance leaders under his command. Which, in case of Stormheim, included Genn. By his own admission, as he openly proclaimed to be working under Alliance orders. That he then violated, as per Anduin himself.
    Yes, but that still doesn't give Anduin the authority to inflict punishment on a king from another regency. They are allies, not master and slave. Anduin gave an order that Genn interpreted liberally, Anduin can be angry about that and could remove Genn from command of troops specifically from Stormwind, but if he overplays his hand then Genn can take his gilnean forces and leave. He is only under Anduins command because he chooses to be, that is how an Alliance works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Every single source on how Dalaran's political system we have disproves the assertion that Jaina acted in her authority as leader of the Kirin Tor. Because there is no such thing to begin with. They don't even have a tie-breaking vote. They can't even leave Dalaran without informing the rest of the Council. Which, by the way, we know thanks to that time where Jaina deliberately violated that rule, showing her complete disregard for Dalaran's inner workings. The leader of the Council is nothing more than an outside representative of the city.
    Unfortunately the situation did not allow for a lengthy vote on the proceedings. The Sunreavers with Aethas have actively supported the delivery of a WMD to a known madman. They could not be allowed to use Dalaran resources anymore after that and Jaina could not know how many of them were traitors. Her call was rushed and fueled by her own loss and anger, but with the information she had and with Aethas not being cooperative she had to act and sort the politics out later.

    And it sure seems like the other Council members were fine with it, otherwise they could have taken her title with a simple vote as they did in Legion.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I don't follow your logic here..., all that proves is racials advantage was not the deciding factor then, even if it may be now or at least a lot more important now which I seriously doubt. In the early days, Alliance had the lore and the attention, they won the WC1-3 wars and the horde were the villains for most of the series. Monsters weren't popular back then amongst your parents/peers, so despite the advantage of racials and shaman people picked alliance.

    Those days, story and lore mattered to a lot of people, and in case you didn't realise it, wow is the very game that introduced this "don't care" attitude towards lore and story in rpg games mainly because for so popular and modern a game, it was crap with telling it's story.. I mean who reads quests in game.. games from the late 90s including WC3 were all voiced.. so you followed the story. And now they introduce this big adventure, forcing kids who hate school and books, especially males who much prefer pictures which is why they play video games, to read.. hell no, they just skipped the quests and went to the action. This was the alliance's first advantage mitigated.


    Then during wow's lifetime it was the horde that was built up - it looked better, when the Blood elves came along, they hands down looked better than the Draenei, you wanna plug that blonde bimbo, not a half animal with hooves, tales and horns, and for a medieval type fantasy, fancy greek like beautiful buildings like Silvermoon > hi-tech SC2 borrowed assets, even though the draenei were nice (I liked the draenei, but not like the blood elves.


    The Burning Crusade Original
    I played horde then, the story was more interesting for TBC concerning both the orcs and blood elves than the Draenei, Draenei were the ones slaughtered on Draenor, there was not much to look forward to learning about them and what we got didn't pique interest that much, rather Thrall returning to his original ancestors and seeing them, that was fascinating, catching up to Kael'thas and seeing if the blood elves would make a new home in Outland, that was way more interesting. if you were a WC2 fan finding out what happened to the expedition would have made you curious, but it had zero exciting developments. you saw the Wildhammer dude, and the sons of Lothar, and nothing really interesting was happening.


    When you hit Shattrath, blood elves were attacking and instead Scryes laid down their arms and asking for help/ you mean not all blood elves were following Kael'thas and wanted to make amends for spiralling away.. that was very interesting, and drew me in a lot more than than remnant draenei.. draenei were story support, it's pretty obvious. the horde's just flat out more interesting, this is why it's more popular. Why would the alliance be popular back then because in spite of racials, but the horde now popular because of racials?

    doesn't make sense, because racials and things like that are not the deciding factor. The horde races story was just more interesting than the alliance, in TBC event he draenei, the blood elf enemies get to help the blood elves, not the other way round, as we go to the Sunwell, the blood elf home, it was very horde centric to me, and I enjoyed it a lot more than the alliance story lines. Even Illidan was far more blood elf skewed, with most of the DH trainees you kill and address being blood elves, it was like the night elf ones barely existed.

    The Naaru, seemed more interested in the blood elves than the Draenei throughout that story, even though the canon opened up the Naaru and the Draenei, making the draenei more interesting, this wasn't the focus of the story, they were plot points to help the blood elves and stop the legion aligned blood elves. So little delved into or centred on the draenei and their Eredar origin - which the sotry could have showed much more of seeing the legion is the one lead by Draenei in their original Eredar name.

    If we had fought Kil'jaeden on an Argus system world or location tied to the draenei instead of the blood elves, then you could refute teh observation. Maybe it's cos I play horde, but I felt connected to all of the story of outland as a horde BElf toon or orc toon, while on the alliance, I only felt that connection some of the time, I was more involved in others' matters.

    Wrath of the Lich King
    Hit WotLK, again, somehow the orcs got a far more interesting role, it appeared to me that the attack on undercity was more to show the horde dealing with Putris than it was the alliance doing anything, as nothing results from that attack for them. Sylvanas was surprisingly not as interesting as Garrosh and Thrall, but the Sunreaver v Silver Covenant was horde centric, since high elves were part of the blood elf racial storyline, that focus was all horde race. Kirin'tor affairs were framed in their light rather than humans.

    Cataclysm
    Cataclysm, had Thrall the main hero, we find out his elevation to Aspect stand in, and how he gets to save the Dragon soul, as a horde player I identify far more with him and thus the main thrust of the story line. Vashj'ir you'd have presumed would have been night elf focused, but that race was severely minimised concerning a substantial portion of their history, and goblins, the new race, had a sub-race with more focus. Goblins introduced with Worgen had far more extensive presence, and their story was much involved. Even though the worgen start was very well done, so was the goblins, but the goblins had Azshara redone for them, they were involved in Stonetalon, Felwood, , Barrens, they had a far greater role than the alliance.

    When I went through the Kalimdor quests on both sides, I felt far more powerful and in control, the alliance felt rubbish and jokes. When I tried the alliance side of the story, the horde felt super threatening, the night elves were laughable, they seemed as scared and oppressed as the WC1 and 2 humans were, which was a little surprising, given that it was the orcs that were more in awe of them in WC3, and they were supposedly the super boost for the alliance.

    the Draenei played almost zero role in fighting a marauding orc army that were again going to visit upon their new friends and new homes the sort of warmongering that destroyed their race, yet they hardly make a show. Wester plaguelands, Hillsbrad, all of the later zone quests in EK, were far more centred on horde races. The forsaken story was the best of cataclysm original races revamped, and I enjoyed it the most, WPL was a song to the forsaken's strength and victory

    Mists of Pandaria
    MoP was all about Garrosh, the horde going bad again, and whiles it seemed it favoured the alliance because we were the villains, actually, we were the focus of the story, there was much more involvement on how we viewed things and dealt with Garrosh, than what the alliance was doing. It was the story of us banding together and stopping our Warchief. Varian and the alliance just seemed support cast, what they did didn't really matter but they had to have some role. The Anduin storyline was a little interesting, but Pandaria felt a lot more horde than alliance..sorry, maybe its because the pandas were furry, maybe it's because of the heavy Vol'jin influence that had skewed them red, .

    Warlords Of Draenor
    Warlords of Draenor was all about the iron horde, , while the draenei did play a role, on the alliance side, and you saw their attack on them, it was all about the iron horde, although this time the blood elves come to aid the draenei, it is the Legion and iron horde that the real trouble an d it just felt more horde centred. The story of Nagrand, the feel of the Arrakkoa, the Sabaeron, it was lovely to see. Draenor was the orc homeworld, with orc lore, the Gronn, orc engineering, - it was also the source of orc fatigue and it ended the TBC - WoD a 5 expansion focus.

    I was also sick of orcs by this time.

    Legion
    Legion was the first time an alliance race was pretty much the centre and the horde a back seat, but legion felt more a thing for Legion, till this day, Suramar still feels like night elves to me, even though the nightborne joined the horde, but while Iw as questing, Suramar Azsuna, Val'sharah and Borken shore were 100% night elf and thus alliance based stuff. Stormheim being Vrykul felt very alliance too, even though no one on the islands were aligned ot either faciotn. only highmountain felt horde. I came to see theNightborne more as Kaldorei version of what the blood elves had rather than like blood elves, itwas full of night lef moon symbols, night elf statues, night elf looking NPCs, night elven arcane sabers, night elf history - the allinace won this one for the first tie in my opinon.

    Battle For Azeroth
    In BFA, it's a mixed bag, at first the horde seemed much more grand, Zuldazar was much nicer than Kul'tiras, but Kul'tiras had more charm, i guess because of WC2/3 and Jaina's story felt more meaningful than Talanji's, although Rastakhan's death, the attack on Daza'rlaor made the horde more of the focus, something unusual happened, the alliance seemed competent and actually dangerous i think for the first time in Wow.. the way they were written to out manoeuvre the horde made the Zanadalari for all their history seem rather weak.. compared to the alliance anyway, despite the spectacular opening scenes.

    Then there was Darkshore, and Tyrande's power up also in favour of the alliance, so to Was Naz'jatar, and Wrathion feels more alliance than horde. however, the War of thorns was totally horde centric, so maybe they were trying to make up for the horde winning both wars, the horde has never felt as powerful as it did when Sylvanas utterly disgraces and out manoeuvres the night elves, totally destroying them, and she felt the victor in Lordaeron more so than the alliance - so maybe that's why the alliance had to look good in 8.1? 8.3 felt neither horde nor alliance. but 8.2 definitely felt alliance with all the night elf lore, and the naga stuff. that stuff feels more night elven than blood elven. When we were shown the naga and Illidan in WC3 TFT, it felt like the blood elves joining up with naughty night elves rather than the other way round. when I saw Nazjatar, Lor'themar and the blood elves felt like been caught up in a night elf story, and Thalyssra the night elf representative on the horde, with Shandris the one on the alliance, it felt very alliance centric. And the story was all about the story of the Night elf former Empress turned Naga empress and night elf issues, which is why it was surprising not to see more kaldorei involvement, but then, when you get blood elves players to feel more night elven, it's probably enough. You could claim that is evidence of horde centrism, as even clear alliance race themes instead choose to focus on horde characters.. but i think that's going to far, seeing that it is Nightborne's obvious kaldorei connection and the blood elves kaldorei history that is used here, it instead paints the horde characters in terms of an alliance race, not the other way around.

    8.3 surprised me in the lack of void elf and Mag'har orc involvement, i thought they'd dominate this one, but when you think about it, the void elves' void stuff is more focused in the stars and the nether, than the old gods. The old gods is the part they successful resist in order to tap the power that is in the cosmos. At least that's how I view it, as such they won't be particularly more involved than any race. the Mag'har seemed intertwined with the dark Naaru, after Shadowmoon orcs have essentially been influenced by it for many generations. Again, not really old god related.

    What this Means
    Simple, the horde has had the better ride, but you only need look at the alliance - they look lame, their feel lame, and when you play through their storylines, it's lame. Maybe we've changed, and we now consider brutal and evil things cool rather than horrific, and as such the alliance feels boring to people like me.

    But then people like me are in the majority on this game, so the horde that services that will be more popular. Has the better assets on the horde (i.e. cooler stuff) swayed many a folk, who knows.. I don't think I'd have cared for the horde if I didn't like the blood elves so much. I finally got a race I could relate to and it was amazing, the best in the game,. Maybe it should have been alliance, but it was given tot he horde and i think the reason it looks so good is because it's on the horde.. I think they tried harder to make the blood elves attractive to make the horde attractive, and those who keep harping on about we should have had high elves instead ( I don't grudge them having high elves now), but they fail to realise the only reason blood elves are so desirable now is because they were were going to join the horde.

    They'd have looked a lot worse if they joined the alliance. You alliance high elf fanboys actually owe the horde for this.
    the racials werent a factor in vanila because people didnt start vanila with min maxing from day 1,and by the time the meta was clear,it was MUCH harder to just swap factions back then,lvling early vanila was much harder than it was in later patches,no transfers etc

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