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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    And I've acknowledged that they likely had an armistice at the Broken Shore, but we do not know the scope of it. I've seen several fan claims of Genn breaking an armistice in Stormheim, but I've never seen any evidence that he broke one within the canon. I don't personally have a stake in whether he did or not; I was hoping someone would have a source that specified he did to clarify the matter unquestioningly. We know things were tense between the factions before Stormheim (hence the creation of the Order Halls before any of the leveling zone quests), and we know that Stormheim exists in a nebulous timeline with other leveling zones, including Alliance executing Forsaken prisoners in Azsuna. We know that Genn and Rogers attacked without warning. But, to my knowledge, no one within the context of the game--Anduin, Sylvanas, Genn, or otherwise--has said that their attack violated an armistice, and the fact that Anduin would give them orders to engage the Horde if they deemed it necessary suggests to me that no armistice was in play (or that Anduin was willing to violate one if he thought it was necessary, which I would personally like in his character development but have a hard time believing is the case given how he rules in BfA).
    See here is the deal: the Legion invasion is probably the highest common threat ever since Cataclysm at that point, where Deathwing actively messed with the balance of Azeroth and caused a possible end of the world to the point Aspects involved themselves directly.

    Come Legion and the homefront and the payoff is clear, it's been clear ever since. The Legion return shaped the history of Azeroth as we know it, so it stands to reason that in front of such a threat the two super powers should work together - as they do with Varian and Sylvanas in the intro cinematic.

    The armistice exists to prevent annihilation.

    Genn breaks it on his own accord, costing the Alliance a precious resource in the Broken Shore campaign (and an historic one at that given the prominence of the Skyfire), and let's not forget that at the stage the invasion is when the Stormheim bombing happens Azeroth is losing badly. Even assuming that everything happens at the same time so Genn has some foresight on Sylvanas' plans in regards of the Val'kyr, Ysera died, Azsuna became another front, Highmountain stands but is still threatened by the Hammer of Khaz'goroth and Skovald has the Halls of Valor on hold given Odyn is still prisoner.

    So it's not just a matter of breaking the armistice, it's a really stupid move overall. Genn is shooting yourself in the foot just to get some petty revenge and acting on assumptions.

    And the whole Shaw is a Dreadlord angle could have been played off better, there could be a line or an emissary acknowledging the fact, some semblance of peace being rebuilt so that the Legion can be tackled.
    But no, nothing. Just that line Anduin said about not following his orders.

    Which by the way is sillier yet: Anduin went rogue after his father died. It's only after recovering Shalamayne that he goes full Manduin (and even then...) finding purpose and resolve. So to me it just doesn't add up who gave what order exactly.

    All things considered, Sylvanas was more than right in A Good War to call out the Alliance, and the speech about calling peace when suiting Anduin too.
    A shame that the Blue Man had to take over. Or maybe it's for the best after all, that sudden of a U-Turn would have soured me to no end.
    Last edited by Jackstraw; 2021-06-10 at 06:53 AM.

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Genn is shooting yourself in the foot just to get some petty revenge and acting on assumptions.
    You heard it here folks, avenging the deaths of your son and subjects and the destruction/blighting of your homelands is just "petty revenge". Genn should just comfort his people with Anduin style platitudes, I guess.

    Was it the best time for that move? No of course not. Was it wrong? No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You heard it here folks, avenging the deaths of your son and subjects and the destruction/blighting of your homelands is just "petty revenge". Genn should just comfort his people with Anduin style platitudes, I guess.

    Was it the best time for that move? No of course not. Was it wrong? No.
    Yeah why not, let's just bomb the biggest fleet deploying on the Broken Shore with one of the strongest weapons in the arsenal of the faction I fight in because I'm acting on a whim.
    Nathanos smacktalks the decision of using a single ship. Nathanos, who is proven to be as dense as they come.

    Genn and Taylor use the Skyfire for personal reasons during an invasion that threats the world they live in, during a losing streak in pushing said invasion back, without anybody giving them any order.
    And yes, it's Shaw who was a Dreadlord and messed up communications regarding the fate of the Horde and the circumstances of their retreat. But Genn does not repent, and Anduin does not send any kind of explanation.

    Because that entire plotline is dumb.

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Yeah why not, let's just bomb the biggest fleet deploying on the Broken Shore with one of the strongest weapons in the arsenal of the faction I fight in because I'm acting on a whim.
    Nathanos smacktalks the decision of using a single ship. Nathanos, who is proven to be as dense as they come.

    Genn and Taylor use the Skyfire for personal reasons during an invasion that threats the world they live in, during a losing streak in pushing said invasion back, without anybody giving them any order.
    And yes, it's Shaw who was a Dreadlord and messed up communications regarding the fate of the Horde and the circumstances of their retreat. But Genn does not repent, and Anduin does not send any kind of explanation.

    Because that entire plotline is dumb.
    Did you somehow miss me agreeing that it was a terrible time for Genn to seek revenge?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  5. #265
    Game stops being completely Horde focused for 5 minutes, Horde kids lose their mind and cry about it.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    The Horde will rise again and purge the Alliance from the face of Azeroth.

    Infracted.
    This right here is why horde will never be allowed to win a war. When alliance win a war, they just tell the horde to not do it again, leave and basically wait for horde to do it again. If horde ever win a war, alliance would be deleted, that is always the goal. So in warcraft universe, alliance will get bitchslap around constantly but they will always somehow “win” the war. It was like this in warcraft 2, warcraft 3 and it’s like this in WoW.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You heard it here folks, avenging the deaths of your son and subjects and the destruction/blighting of your homelands is just "petty revenge". Genn should just comfort his people with Anduin style platitudes, I guess.

    Was it the best time for that move? No of course not. Was it wrong? No.
    Was the oversimplification and hyperbole really needed?

    The arrow was shot at Genn. He could have just eaten it like blizzard makes most horde leadership do. But instead, his kid didn't want him to take it like a champ. You dont avenge suicidal actions. And can we stop pretending Gilneas was occupied when it was blighted? It could do you some good to follow actual Canon rather than headcanon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    >Literally the entirety of BFA pre-8.3 was Horde storylines co-starring Alliance Reactions
    >Just Like Cata
    >And MoP

    @OP Maybe the Horde would stop losing if it quit defaulting to "wipe entire nations and species off the map and targeting population centers as a matter of course" whenever they go to war. In a franchise predicated upon the continued existence of two factions, any war built around the total extermination of one is going to fail. Instead, you and others seem to think the answer is "quadruple down on a failed philosophy, because this time if we fill our ranks with murderous sociopaths, it will absolutely 100% work," which brings to mind the adage regarding the definition of insanity and repeating the same course of action expecting different results.
    You're not wrong about the bolded part. You just chose to ignore the context. BFA was mostly about horde so blizzard could raise the alliance higher and higher on their pedestal.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by AcidicSyn View Post
    My preferred way to do this? Have alliance leaders, especially in light of recent events, finally ask "Why were we all just cool with the title of High King being a hereditary thing when literally any of us were better qualified for the job again?" and implode on itself. I'll take an entire Alliance themed expansion where the Horde is just trying to rebuild its infrastructure without blowing something up for a change while the Alliance is dealing with HEAVY internal power struggles. Horde can come in at the end to help kill whichever one gets possessed by a void lord or whatever.
    The Alliance beating the fractured Horde at the end of BFA, having Anduin do his speech at Sadfang's funeral only to go home to find a peasant revolt on his hands and Tyrande seceding while in Kul Tiras people rise up against Jaina for letting her father down and forgetting Brennadam would have been both the most logical and most dramatically interesting follow-up to what happened. We're told over and over that there's a heavy cost in blood and treasure for Anduin to sustain the war effort - a war effort who's goal he's now made explicitly clear is to 'heal' the Horde. The farmer conscripts alluded to would be none too happy to be sent off to die in places like Zandalar, seeing their friends melted by Blight, have their souls ripped out by Mag'har or crushed by a tauren totem only for the King to return happy he's made peace after extracting zero concessions except a pinky swear. They'd be even less happy when a little while later they learn that all those people who died for nothing are cooking in hell. You can have Genn be split between tutoring Anduin and not wanting more to happen, Velen having to sit out because of losses against the Legion, Turalyon being pushed into the Lothar position of Supreme Commande due to his experience. It's a gold mine for actual conflict if Blizzard could just swallow the bitter pill that is anyone in the Alliance having a meaningful disagreement with the God-King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    At this point, if it didn't mean leaving the Alliance races in a narrative jumble, I'd welcome a Horde victory if it meant we could start to eliminate the faction barrier and maybe pursue some stories that it currently prohibits. Unfortunately, I can't see any instance of a Horde victory leaving the current Alliance races playable in some sort of Horde superpower (though maybe we'll have a Mad Turalyon expansion, and Thrall can bring the light of a democratic council to the outdated monarchies of the Alliance refugees).
    Despite being pro-Horde I actually think the time to have one faction dismantle the other or put it into occupation should have been handed over to the Alliance, with the Horde reforming and breaking out a later time as the strain of sustaining both itself, an occupation and struggle with Big Bad X becomes too much to sustain. The factions can't be destroyed, but they can have their relationship change or leaders favorable to the other faction installed. What we have now in BFA is in values, purpose and even system of governance essentially an occupational government anyway and making that formal would give the Alliance fanbase the win they were after, revert the Horde to its underdog status that some people are really into and set the seeds for it to break free later, all without requiring more than a few lines and NPC guard changes.

    In turn, a Horde victory would be equally as possible - the Horde can take lands, sure, but it can't sustain the conquest afterwards and an Alliance reconquista would be both cathartic and sensible to write, even if it's just for one zone.

    Heh. That line really got me. Kudos to you!
    Couldn't help myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Well, technically it didn't happen or at least not as pronounced, since the book sets the canon, but I very much prefer Jaina to not be a saint. I simply don't feel it is right to demonize her for logical actions and that does happen a lot in this forum. For many Horde players Jaina is on a level with Sylvanas (Yes, I fulfilled your law again) through actions like the Purge and when she simply defends her allies and city and that is just not a fair comparison.
    That's the catch though, all of the events in Cataclysm still took place - there's no alternative culprit given for the attack on Camp Meme or the various attacks as the game references both them and Fort Triumph, also held by Theramore troops. It's an extremely bizarre scenario where the plot takes place in the climate created by these things but absolutely no one brings them up, positively or negatively. Every Horde character, Garrosh included, acts like moving on Theramore is some kind of radical new step after seeming peace despite all obstacles before them being the results of war in Theramore and Jaina acts as though she's alone and unwatched and agonizes over asking for help despite having the Horde be going through protected positions. It turns every participant in the plot into a schizophrenic in service of trying to guilt the reader into being sad for Jaina, diminishing both her, Garrosh and everyone else in the process.

    Invoking Sylvanas as an equivalent isn't an issue at all - they're an extremely apt comparison. Jaina is to the Horde playerbase what Sylvanas is to the Alliance - not in terms of moral equivalence obviously, but in terms of their narrative treatment. The Alliance playerbase feels that Sylvanas gets away constantly after taking wins off of them and that they can't effectively strike back at her - that their plot and characters are made to act like morons or to show her inexplicable sympathy instead of being concerned about the exhaustive list of things she's done to them. They find her power level inexplicably high to the point of not making any sense. They feel that in the few times the narrative recognizes her wrap sheet, it's done by strawmen, with no worse example than Tyrande having to feel for being angry at her after Sylvanas cooked her city's population. They feel that authorial preference ensures that she won't get any comeuppance even in things that guarantee some kind of consequences for others - being a raid boss, natch. Ultimately, that she's someone who falls upwards and who the game mandates you feel sympathy for despite you having zero reason from your perspective to do so.

    Every single thing listed is the case with Jaina and the Horde, but plus another one. Jaina has only one loss to the Horde - Theramore. Before BFA things were somewhat in check, with some standouts still being the entire middle Kalimdor battlefront in Cataclysm, being able to drown Orgrimmar at a whim and only being stopped by Thrall, to the Purge where she clowns on much older and more experienced elf mages who's main gimmick is arcane. It's in BFA that things go completely off the rails with Jaina being able to clear the Blight singlehanded and essentially beat the defenders alone, undoing the Horde war campaign in a one-off, teleporting into the Horde capital city without issue and winning the Battle for Dazar'alor without a scratch on her. At no point does anyone in the Horde bring up anything that happened in Cataclysm by Theramore troops as involving Jaina - Camp Meme is the only one that comes close to it, but Honor's Stand, the Mulgore Gates, etc. Jaina almost drowning all of Orgrimmar unless she was physically stopped by Thrall. Garrosh doesn't use her obvious militarity activity at any point as an argument despite doing so before to hype people up and having this as his motive prior. Aethas votes for Jaina to take over after said track record because of her peacefulness and the Kirin Tor and the fucking Sha'tar - who are motivated by pure goodness, don't evne know who she is and are from another fucking planet, break rank to go join up with her. Despite her being the one to purge him, Aethas is the one who is made to apologize to her and bribe the Kirin Tor with a symbol of blood elf royalty. When this next comes up, it's by a strawman who is cast as unreasonable as being opposed to Jaina in the Baine scenario.

    Where Sylvanas has a handwave for her power level and the circumstances around it are based on her no longer being an allied character and people like Thrall slink into depression and don't use their powers in the faction war, Jaina goes from being injured by a single mage or a man with a gun in one book to being able to having five of our named characters (Talanji, Nathanos, Thalyssra, Rokhan and Lassan) plus a raid boss (Zul) being too scared to fight her. She is the only raid boss in the entire game to achieve all her goals during the raid without even a scratch on her. Six months of a raid tier about Jaina kicking our asses after undoing all we do up to that point is followed by the Horde tearing itself apart over what happens to her brother so that her anointed bloodline can take over a race that she has nothing to do with and zero interaction with up to that point in the Forsaken. Even the end of the faction war isn't freedom from her being shoved down our throats - the first introduction of the eunuchs our cast is left with after BFA consists of having Baine be dropped off a cliff for being entirely useless and Thrall being broken on a rock, unable to get up, while all of them can't shut their gob about how amazing Jaina is, Darion included. She's so much of a pestilence that even her own faction isn't safe from being dicked for her benefit - Jaina's angst about Theramore and her (correct) dad gets cinematic after cinematic and promotion after promotion, she gets huge moments to show off her strength and pathos whereas the Night Elves are props for her to rub Thrall's arm and where the Night Warrior gets defused after doing nothing. Jaina is much more powerful and gets to participate in defeating Sylvanas, whom she has nothing to do with, while Tyrande cries herself to sleep on the sidelines.

    tl;dr I'll trade you Sylvanas if her and Jaina both leap down a black hole at the end of Sanctum of Domination and many Horde players would agree.

    I agree that it's stupid to retcon existing game lore. The unfortunate truth is that the Alliance had to be somewhat neutered in this story, they had to become the good guys because otherwise the Horde would have been destroyed. A "non-saint" faction would have never allowed the Horde to get back to strength after they supported Garrosh until the very end. A "normal" faction would have at the very least subjugated the Horde and an "evil" faction would have wiped them out when they were weak. But the game's reality of two-factions precluded any of this to come to pass, so the only way was for the Alliance to be super nice and forgive them for everything.

    Basically the entire problem was writting the story into this direction in the first place to please those that wish back the WC2 Horde, they should have known that it could never end in any satisfactory conclusion. The fact they did not actually learn anything from that and chose to deliberatedly do it again in BFA is unbelievable.
    I've covered some of this already up top, ditto regarding how Jaina is seen so I'll brush over that bit unless there's a part you figure wasn't covered, but this is a part where I heavily disagree. The Alliance's power superiority over the Horde is only really a relevant factor post-Mists. Before that, the factions aren't cast this way and rightly so. The only group in the Alliance to be heavily nerfed instead of buffed are the night elves who go from Empire to human hangers on, but Stormwind itself makes even the wank that involves the orcs going from a handful of ships to an advanced militarized state appear as some kind of bastion of sense. The Horde puts almost the entire population of Stormwind to the sword in the First War except for people who hid in the sewers and salts the earth, with survivors fleeing to Lordaeron which is mentioned as becoming the bastion of humanity before WC3 - a WC3 where it's entirely devastated and they have to flee back - but not in one group, one small party goes with Jaina to set up Theramore, while another one goes back to a scarcely recovering Stormwind. A Stormwind that at least in Vanilla is dysfunctional, unable to even effectively pay for its repairs and outmatched militarily by the far more active and expansionistic Ironforge. The transition from that to being able to spew out armies of tanks, clone troopers, airships etc. without any visible facilities and while apparently dealing with starvation in Westfall is the product of narrative fiat and slight of hand of an identical type to the orcish one, except without the handwave of the orcs bringing in all their disparate clans and then having a mini-industrial revolution at the cost of polluting their land.

    Alliance ranks have increased not by adding power houses, but small groups of refugees - worgen, draenei, that's made up for by absurdly overpowered hero characters like Malfurion, who's wanked as hard as he is mostly due to the Knaak books and does nothing of that calibre again anywhere since. The only race that can make a plausible case for being nerfed besides the obvious one of the night elves are the dwarves, who should be and actually were in Vanilla, the main power in industrial, numerical and military terms of the Alliance, having only grown after uniting all their clans, but are instead vassals of King Chin.

    @Feanoro @Jackstraw

    Both of you've already said most everything else on this, but re: Genn and Sylvanas, the elephant in the room and that ties into the whole thing with no one bringing up what Jaina does for all of Cataclysm, isn't whether Genn was right or wrong, well motivated or not. Personally I think what he did was dumb, but also entirely in-character and completely in line with someone who's in his eyes, lost yet another thing to Sylvanas and now sees her more powerful than ever, in position to inflict that upon others. Rather it's that Genn still used the Skyfire to first attack the Horde fleet, killing a whole bunch of troops, and then only as a prelude to an attempt to assassinate the Horde head of state. It's one of the most comically blatant acts of war against another state available, impossible to write off as a skirmish between proxy forces.

    There's a reason the story has to tie itself in knots to never bring it up and it's because if it's acknowledged, Sylvanas convincing the Horde to go to war requires no preludes to speak of as a state of war would already be preassumed. It makes the Horde population figuring they can't let the enemy get their hands on fantasy plutonium completely sensible when said enemy will simply attempt to off their leader at a whim during a war with Satan.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-11 at 06:30 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    So bring in folks who were hostile to the Horde?

    Nah, Silvermoon especially needs to stay well clear of dark and fel Horde.

    Don't want colour variations of Troll and don't want to feel like I'm always playing the villain, when I play Blood Elves and Nightborne, who have done what they could to survive under hard times.
    like dark iron dwarves? like mechagnomes? like void touched beings? yeah its simply not possible

  10. #270
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alt-ithist View Post
    This right here is why horde will never be allowed to win a war. .
    Neither the alliance will? cause this kind of trashtalk happens all the time from both parts, trying to say is just "horde players is laughable.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Was the oversimplification and hyperbole really needed?
    To point out the absurdity, yes.

    The arrow was shot at Genn. He could have just eaten it like blizzard makes most horde leadership do. But instead, his kid didn't want him to take it like a champ. You dont avenge suicidal actions. And can we stop pretending Gilneas was occupied when it was blighted? It could do you some good to follow actual Canon rather than headcanon.
    Oh hey, you're right! We definitely wouldn't punish someone who shot at you because your kid got in the way. And they burned your house down? So what, if you weren't in it at the time. Nope, no valid complaints there!

    Is this hyperbole needed? When you try to shift blame for a murder to the victim and downplay the blighting as not a big deal, yes. Frankly, I know I'm not going to convince someone who can excuse such actions, so I'm not going to make the attempt.


    @Super Dickmann
    The funny part for me is that I'm in full agreement that it was a boneheaded move due to the timing and circumstances. I'm only defending the motivation for it, yet I seem to be getting responses that (surprise surprise) try desperately to accuse me of defending the timing. I suspect it's because the posters in question know damn well the motivation is fully justified.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Assumi View Post
    Game stops being completely Horde focused for 5 minutes, Horde kids lose their mind and cry about it.
    They've been the focus since the 2.0 patch, and they're scared to death they'll start getting the treatment Blizz gives Alliance, nerf bat and all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by alt-ithist View Post
    This right here is why horde will never be allowed to win a war. When alliance win a war, they just tell the horde to not do it again, leave and basically wait for horde to do it again. If horde ever win a war, alliance would be deleted, that is always the goal. So in warcraft universe, alliance will get bitchslap around constantly but they will always somehow “win” the war. It was like this in warcraft 2, warcraft 3 and it’s like this in WoW.
    I've said many times, Horde victory means everyone NotHorde is dead. Alliance victory means the Horde stops killing them for a few weeks.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2021-06-11 at 06:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There's a reason the story has to tie itself in knots to never bring it up and it's because if it's acknowledged, Sylvanas convincing the Horde to go to war requires no preludes to speak of as a state of war would already be preassumed. It makes the Horde population figuring they can't let the enemy get their hands on fantasy plutonium completely sensible when said enemy will simply attempt to off their leader at a whim during a war with Satan.
    This is the whole point, to me. And the fact that any credibility Genn had ended with the Skyfire incident.

    Genn might be right, as @Feanoro said. But it's not just a matter of doing a whoopsie tee hee. It's the fact that during a world ending invasion one decides to go and fuck over with the planet's own chance of winning. AND this whole thing justifies A Good War, the War of Thorns, the Azerite arms race and whatever needs be done to secure it before a faction that in times of relative peace shoots for absolute, demented retaliation.

    And if we want to go down that way, fine: Genn has plot armor like all the Alliance cast, so his son, who is built stronger than Genn who in the entirety of the Worgen scenario learns literally nothing from his past mistakes, can die to allow his father for some sort of journey.
    Where he doesn't learn nothing.

    So at the end of the day the Skyfire served what purpose in that situation?
    Why is there no literal consequence pushed to Genn, no matter the motivations?
    Why is Anduin taking the blame when nobody could have given Genn any orders?
    Because it's as Dickmann said. No amount of right can even begin to justify this.

    Of course, the Blue Man happened. So right or wrong tends to fall on the ground.

  13. #273
    The whole fourth conflict was never going to be a masterpiece of writing and logic even before the start anyway, the moment Sylvanas was made Warchief it was obvious that the Garrosh scenario was repeating itself with a cruel and tyrannical warchief sure to lead the Horde through a dark path, commit unforgivable atrocities and to cause another open war with the Alliance.

    By the time that Thrall chose Garrosh to replace him, Garrosh's aggressive, stubborn and impulsive personality and his bellicosity toward the Alliance were already well-known but he had at least the virtues of being genuinely loyal to the Horde and to his people and to have a sense of honor at the time.

    By the time of Sylvanas' appointement it was already old news that she was a very nasty piece of work, and the fact that characters such as Eitrigg, Saurfang until his rebellion and Rexxar put even less resistance toward her and her actions than for Garrosh was frankly very baffling and badly written.

    And the fact that Jaina and Genn (even if he turned out to be right about Sylvanas' intentions) focused more on the Horde than on the Burning Legion was really forced, while the whole War of the Thorns was just on the same level of writing than the last seasons of GOT and Star Wars sequels.
    Last edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight; 2021-06-11 at 11:00 AM.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Neither the alliance will? cause this kind of trashtalk happens all the time from both parts, trying to say is just "horde players is laughable.
    Yeah, but Horde *NPCs* (The ones that count, players and their bluster on forums doesn't matter at all) *would* do that, while despite lots (Maybe even most) Alliance players saying "The Horde is our greatest threat, finish them off already", Alliance *NPCs* will always do the "Let's turn our backs again so they can backstab us again" thing.

    Look at BFA, would Anduin say "Kill them all, we've been stabbed in the back too often already"? No, he wouldn't (Neither would Varian have), but would Sylvanas (And before her, Garrosh) leave an opportunity to destroy the Alliance once and for all? Be honest with your answer.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    Yeah, but Horde *NPCs* (The ones that count, players and their bluster on forums doesn't matter at all) *would* do that, while despite lots (Maybe even most) Alliance players saying "The Horde is our greatest threat, finish them off already", Alliance *NPCs* will always do the "Let's turn our backs again so they can backstab us again" thing.

    Look at BFA, would Anduin say "Kill them all, we've been stabbed in the back too often already"? No, he wouldn't (Neither would Varian have), but would Sylvanas (And before her, Garrosh) leave an opportunity to destroy the Alliance once and for all? Be honest with your answer.
    Even neutral factions would be slaughtered sooner or later. Likely starting from Silver Hand and Argents and then going down to Cenarion Circle. Since in so far we have seen that ANYTHING that horde dosent directly control, entirely oppress or have under thumb considered an existential threat and causes horde sleepless nights which they resolve in mass slaughter out of misguided fear.

  16. #276
    I think it's kinda subjective point of view.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Even neutral factions would be slaughtered sooner or later. Likely starting from Silver Hand and Argents and then going down to Cenarion Circle. Since in so far we have seen that ANYTHING that horde dosent directly control, entirely oppress or have under thumb considered an existential threat and causes horde sleepless nights which they resolve in mass slaughter out of misguided fear.
    The Forsaken, seen as evil incarnate by the usual poster, had a wide degree of cooperation with the Argents and the Silver Hand since way back when they were fighting a harsh tug of war with the Scarlet Crusade for the control of Silverpine and ultimately their own survival.
    Doesn't add up to me.

  18. #278
    Pit Lord Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Even neutral factions would be slaughtered sooner or later. Likely starting from Silver Hand and Argents and then going down to Cenarion Circle. Since in so far we have seen that ANYTHING that horde dosent directly control, entirely oppress or have under thumb considered an existential threat and causes horde sleepless nights which they resolve in mass slaughter out of misguided fear.
    to be fair the Forsaken still haven't done anything to them until today; if they can do it now they would've done it before

    I wouldn't count Stefon; what happened to him is his own fault and his own volition
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  19. #279
    The Alliance should have really been shown retaking the territories invaded or attacked by the Horde in the game such as Darkshore, Arathi Highlands, Ashenvale and Gilneas, that would have been far better and more satisfying that the outcome of the war and battles just being told without the results being shown in game.

    Also the High King title has always been a mistake, the Supreme Commander of the Alliance forces should have been kept with Turalyon resuming his position due to his experience and strategy and tactical skills gained during the Second War and battles against the Burning Legion instead of just being a commander in Stromgarde, while Anduin should have been a political spearhead but certainely not the official leader of the Alliance due to his inexperience and lack of military knowledge and we should have seen discussions and talks between the Alliance leaders before deciding what kind of peace they wanted with the Horde and what guarentees and actions of good-will from the Horde they wanted to see.

  20. #280
    Auclad showing his alliance bias once more. Your petty bans won't stop me Alliance puppet.

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