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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    So…

    You grasping for straws here, Jackstraw.
    I'm not grasping at anything, lad.

    Facts are as presented. The whiny attitude of a faction's playerbase prevents any consequence because god forbid actions had any.

    The Alliance bias is as presented: any bad is washed of any possible guilt by an abudance of retcons, and the Horde exists to push the righteous idea of a faction that has to be good, and can't do no bad.
    Said faction has the gall to complain that the Horde pushes the narrative and the Alliance can't do anything but react, ignoring the fact that catering to their need chokes any possible narrative evolution that's not retaliating to the Horde. But at this point the game is over.

    Point me to anyone who knows who escalated the conflict in Cataclysm and why.

    I might be grasping at straws, but am I debating with the stereotypical cardboard Alliance fanboy? Or with someone that can discuss the nuance and problems at hand?

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2021-06-07 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  2. #102
    Some stuff in the Alliance war campaign is shocking. I think the worst is when you get a quest to send helpless ambassadors to be tentacle raped to death by void monsters.

    When i saw that i was like wow and you call your self the good guys?

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    Some stuff in the Alliance war campaign is shocking. I think the worst is when you get a quest to send helpless ambassadors to be tentacle raped to death by void monsters.

    When i saw that i was like wow and you call your self the good guys?
    Good guys in comparison. You know “Its easy to be a saint in the company of devils.”

    And besides, compare that to something like Brennadam even or for example very old example of Horde poisoning sleeping druids in Ashenvale during Classic and it dosent look as bad as you portray.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    I'm not grasping at anything, lad.

    Facts are as presented. The whiny attitude of a faction's playerbase prevents any consequence because god forbid actions had any.

    The Alliance bias is as presented: any bad is washed of any possible guilt by an abudance of retcons, and the Horde exists to push the righteous idea of a faction that has to be good, and can't do no bad.
    Said faction has the gall to complain that the Horde pushes the narrative and the Alliance can't do anything but react, ignoring the fact that catering to their need chokes any possible narrative evolution that's not retaliating to the Horde. But at this point the game is over.

    Point me to anyone who knows who escalated the conflict in Cataclysm and why.

    I might be grasping at straws, but am I debating with the stereotypical cardboard Alliance fanboy? Or with someone that can discuss the nuance and problems at hand?
    Pear then according to you. Sylvanas attacks first Teldrazzil because somehow the Alliance Players found out that they were going to attack first in BFA and they complained so much about it that they changed the Story so that it happens?

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Good guys in comparison. You know “Its easy to be a saint in the company of devils.”
    Exactly. The problem is the difference in scale.

    The Alliance had to have destroyed Zandalari and then said "since we don't kill civilians we are superior." If you wanted to have a meaningful conflict.

    The alliance does bad things but they are minimal.

    To the point that when they wanted Anduin to say the bad things about the Alliance, Arthas had to say. Because the plot is so empty.


    PS: It's funny because Fans of the Horde complain that the Alliance doesn't do evil things to have reasons to go to war.
    And the Fans of the Alliance complain that they don't let them do bad things.

    Clearly everyone wants the Alliance to do bad things. All but the writers who seem not to want to write the history of the alliance, just Anduin's.

    Because of everything you say, only 1 thing was "retouched" which is not really Cannon. The rest is still Cannon or never was.
    And if you compare that to the Horde's treatment of "It's only Sylvanas's fault." It is the Horde that is thrown the most buckets of white paint.

    You really don't realize that this is not "Pursuing the Horde in favor of the Alliance". Rather, it is a "Harm the Horde and Alliance to sell the plot of the day."
    I mean, I emphasize that I once said that something that happened "bad for the Horde" gave "something good to the Alliance."
    Last edited by geco; 2021-06-07 at 03:12 PM.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    every war in the lore, since Warcraft 3 has been started by the Alliance. The Horde then retaliate harder.
    Wasn't it Sylvanas who started the Fourth war? As far as I can recall, we have Daelin in WC3, Varian in WotLK, and Sylvanas in BfA. I don't know any other Alliance/Horde wars outside of those three that occurred from WC3 onwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The whiny attitude of a faction's playerbase prevents any consequence because god forbid actions had any.
    By that logic, if Alliance fans want to be good guys, Horde fans want to be evil, given that their complaints got them an entire questline (although a poorly done one) to side with Sylvanas over Saurfang. Ultimately, it's up to Blizzard as to whether something fits or not. Blizzard decided the vulpera attacks were too controversial and cut them.

    And on the topic of Genn/Shaw, if you want to point to Alliance being the aggressors, I'd just use Stormheim. While I can understand Genn and Rogers' motivation, it was still a stealth attack during a critical time of the Legion's invasion (even if Sylvanas was aware an attack would be coming at some point).

    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    Some stuff in the Alliance war campaign is shocking. I think the worst is when you get a quest to send helpless ambassadors to be tentacle raped to death by void monsters.

    When i saw that i was like wow and you call your self the good guys?
    I guess punishment vs reward really depends on your view of tentacles... (Yes, this is intended as a joke; I'm not advocating for the non-consensual banishment of people into the void.)

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    I'm not grasping at anything, lad.

    Facts are as presented. The whiny attitude of a faction's playerbase prevents any consequence because god forbid actions had any.

    The Alliance bias is as presented: any bad is washed of any possible guilt by an abudance of retcons, and the Horde exists to push the righteous idea of a faction that has to be good, and can't do no bad.
    Said faction has the gall to complain that the Horde pushes the narrative and the Alliance can't do anything but react, ignoring the fact that catering to their need chokes any possible narrative evolution that's not retaliating to the Horde. But at this point the game is over.

    Point me to anyone who knows who escalated the conflict in Cataclysm and why.

    I might be grasping at straws, but am I debating with the stereotypical cardboard Alliance fanboy? Or with someone that can discuss the nuance and problems at hand?
    Your argument only makes sense if you entirely ignore that same nuance you talk so much about.

    Garrosh escalated conflict in Cataclysm. When he attacked Ashenvale and then Alliance attacked Barrens as Varian’s “big brain” plan of taking Horde’s attention from Ashenvale by striking at their vulnerable underbelly.

    Also in same Cata horde carried out slaughters of civilians in Silverwind Refuge (leaving corpses to rot where they fell on purpose, to “send the message”) , Soutshore (entirely drowned in Blight and any survivors hunted down with impunity, few escaping to Fenris Isle) and all over Ashenvale and Hillsbrad.

    Alliance dosent want to be “morally pure”, you already gave us all the rights to rip your guts off and put your corpses on display “to send a message” as you twisted fucks do.

    Alliance wants COMPETENCE. And roasting some desert rats in a hamfisted “oh that should totes balance the scales for Teldrassil” move is NOT that.

    We either need a real strike against Horde civilians on a scale horde always uses or dont try to accuse Alliance of “evil” while you put another population to a blade.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    By that logic, if Alliance fans want to be good guys, Horde fans want to be evil, given that their complaints got them an entire questline (although a poorly done one) to side with Sylvanas over Saurfang. Ultimately, it's up to Blizzard as to whether something fits or not. Blizzard decided the vulpera attacks were too controversial and cut them.
    Yeah, the story is Blizzard's and they can do whatever. Most of the users I regard the most in the lore forums I subbed to accepted the fact that some retcons are just too much to treat the story seriously anymore, and we're just in for the ride and calling bullshit when it's blatant.
    We're old men at a construction site.

    However the Horde siding with Sylvanas was because the "Sylvanas fanbase" was really attached to the character since the W3 days, and Blizzard kept pushing this theory that it wasn't all like it seemed, that Sylvanas would not be Garrosh 2.0, that her motives were nuanced. And then Teldrassil happened, the War Campaign happened, Azshara happened, Zelling happened, Orgrimmar happened, the Jailer retcon happened and here we are.

    So I wouldn't call it being evil, it's just that an extremely beloved character has been taken and used to sell the plot of the day.

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    it is a "Harm the Horde and Alliance to sell the plot of the day."
    Which by the way I completely agree on, and it's the reason why I call bullshit when I see it. There's no "nuance" in the Horde, no big plot and no plot armor. Everything has been disassembled and repurposed to further a plot that's starting to collapse because the old scaffolds have been moved and nobody ever bothered to replace them.

  8. #108
    High Overlord Shadowtwili's Avatar
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    Whoa, calm down. It's just a game, no need to talk like you're actually part of the Alliance fighting against a Horde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    I'm not grasping at anything, lad.

    Facts are as presented. The whiny attitude of a faction's playerbase prevents any consequence because god forbid actions had any.
    Sounds like the Horde fanbase anytime they have to deal with the consequences of (mostly) supporting a genocidal faction leader. Don't forget that the majority of Horde players supported the warchiefs that were into genocide, not caring that gameplay was that would either kill of the Alliance, or their own faction.

    Then they get to wash their hands off with "Garrosh/Sylvanas did it, promise".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Point me to anyone who knows who escalated the conflict in Cataclysm and why.

    I might be grasping at straws, but am I debating with the stereotypical cardboard Alliance fanboy? Or with someone that can discuss the nuance and problems at hand?
    Sure, that was Warchief Garrosh Hellscream. Yes Varian declared "war" in Wrath of the Lich King after the Wrathgate, but they held a peace summit in between and the declaration of war was basicly ignored by everyone, even Varian after he calmed down.

    "B... But muh night elves didn't wanna trade no more", that's right and it was certainly a dick move, but let's not make the Horde out to be innocent here, the Horde at that point still had 3 illegal settlements in Ashenvale that chopped down trees for lumber, they had control over Azshara (tho it was contested by the night elves).

    I'm not saying Garrosh was wrong for declaring war, mind you. Just pointing out that Garrosh escalated the conflict from Cold War to Hot War.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Good guys in comparison. You know “Its easy to be a saint in the company of devils.”

    And besides, compare that to something like Brennadam even or for example very old example of Horde poisoning sleeping druids in Ashenvale during Classic and it dosent look as bad as you portray.
    It really does look that bad or i would say worse. I remember saying at the time wow how horde of you, good job. I thought the alliance was supposed to be better then the horde.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Yeah, the story is Blizzard's and they can do whatever. Most of the users I regard the most in the lore forums I subbed to accepted the fact that some retcons are just too much to treat the story seriously anymore, and we're just in for the ride and calling bullshit when it's blatant.
    We're old men at a construction site.

    However the Horde siding with Sylvanas was because the "Sylvanas fanbase" was really attached to the character since the W3 days, and Blizzard kept pushing this theory that it wasn't all like it seemed, that Sylvanas would not be Garrosh 2.0, that her motives were nuanced. And then Teldrassil happened, the War Campaign happened, Azshara happened, Zelling happened, Orgrimmar happened, the Jailer retcon happened and here we are.

    So I wouldn't call it being evil, it's just that an extremely beloved character has been taken and used to sell the plot of the day.



    Which by the way I completely agree on, and it's the reason why I call bullshit when I see it. There's no "nuance" in the Horde, no big plot and no plot armor. Everything has been disassembled and repurposed to further a plot that's starting to collapse because the old scaffolds have been moved and nobody ever bothered to replace them.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    Whoa, calm down. It's just a game, no need to talk like you're actually part of the Alliance fighting against a Horde.

    Sounds like the Horde fanbase anytime they have to deal with the consequences of (mostly) supporting a genocidal faction leader. Don't forget that the majority of Horde players supported the warchiefs that were into genocide, not caring that gameplay was that would either kill of the Alliance, or their own faction.

    Then they get to wash their hands off with "Garrosh/Sylvanas did it, promise".
    That's a lie. The Horde's reaction to Teldrassil was so negative. That Blizzard had to rush the old warrior cinematics and I think they even rushed the pre-patch itself. Going out to say things like "the heart of the Horde still lives." and they had to download Yotuve's video.

    What if it could be that there are people who vote not to be with Varock. Not being with Genocide 2 and not having another Pandaria 2.0 plot.

    You also have to keep in mind that many Horde players left when seeing this event. So it is easy to say that of those who remained are only those who followed Sylvanas.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Alliance dosent want to be “morally pure”, you already gave us all the rights to rip your guts off and put your corpses on display “to send a message” as you twisted fucks do.
    Let's try to keep in mind that Warcraft is fiction, and nobody on this forum or elsewhere belongs to the Horde or Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowtwili View Post
    Sounds like the Horde fanbase anytime they have to deal with the consequences of (mostly) supporting a genocidal faction leader. Don't forget that the majority of Horde players supported the warchiefs that were into genocide, not caring that gameplay was that would either kill of the Alliance, or their own faction.

    Then they get to wash their hands off with "Garrosh/Sylvanas did it, promise".
    It's different players, for the most part. There has always been a portion of the Horde fanbase that preferred them as the antagonists of Warcraft 1/2 as opposed to the protagonists of Warcraft 3.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    It really does look that bad or i would say worse. I remember saying at the time wow how horde of you, good job. I thought the alliance was supposed to be better then the horde.
    They are better. The fact they do not go full “Teldrassil” on you and also constantly argue for peace and forgiveness puts them miles above you.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They are better. The fact they do not go full “Teldrassil” on you and also constantly argue for peace and forgiveness puts them miles above you.
    What ever you have to tell your self dude.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They are better. The fact they do not go full “Teldrassil” on you and also constantly argue for peace and forgiveness puts them miles above you.
    Forgiving criminals doesn't exactly put you in a morally superior position.

    In BFA-
    The alliance is in essence the judge who will live the Rapist (The Horde) to continue attacking his victim (The Kaldorei). While the parents of the victims almost always look the other way (Malfurion and Tyrande)

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    What ever you have to tell your self dude.
    Dont try that with me. You just doing the usual false equivalency when comparing two different things. Its like saying that stealing from your local shop is the same as going on a violent rampage with a shotgun.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Dont try that with me. You just doing the usual false equivalency when comparing two different things. Its like saying that stealing from your local shop is the same as going on a violent rampage with a shotgun.
    I mean sure the horde has done far worse things over the years (other then that void thing) but that doesn't mean the alliance has no skeletons in there closet.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I mean sure the horde has done far worse things over the years (other then that void thing) but that doesn't mean the alliance has no skeletons in there closet.
    The thing is, he doesn't have enough to even mention the penis.
    And this is wrong. Very bad.

    It is like "the Kaldorei began to torture the Horde soldiers" but in the plot it is so little compared to the Horde that it seems to be worthless.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    I mean sure the horde has done far worse things over the years (other then that void thing) but that doesn't mean the alliance has no skeletons in there closet.
    Horde literally went to war instigated to feed Bold Blue Man in the Maw aka the Jailer and apparently that war was enough to tip the scales far enough to launch the whole "Shdawolands kerfuffle". Not to mention all the souls of both Alliance and Horde who went to the Maw and faced either mandess from agony and slavery or outright annihilation.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Horde literally went to war instigated to feed Bold Blue Man in the Maw aka the Jailer and apparently that war was enough to tip the scales far enough to launch the whole "Shdawolands kerfuffle". Not to mention all the souls of both Alliance and Horde who went to the Maw and faced either mandess from agony and slavery or outright annihilation.
    Ok but that wasn't the horde, that was Sylvanas. We didn't know anything about the maw stuff.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Rendark View Post
    Ok but that wasn't the horde, that was Sylvanas. We didn't know anything about the maw stuff.
    The correct answer is:
    "Blizzard forced us. We wanted to reveal ourselves from the first patch with Varock and the movement without honor without shoulder pads. But they forced us to pay attention to Sylvanas because otherwise they could not continue with their fourth plot.
    So now the Nightborne are conquered not guardians and the entire Horde is sane to kill babies for this SW plot that no one seems to care. "

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