The problem with alliance bias.

[bowlink]

It's been quite some time since WC2. I'd wager that most Horde players weren't enticed by a bunch of demonic addled murderhobos, but rather by (early) Thrall's Horde, which just sought a place in this world while fighting the ghosts of the past.

Most Horde are Alliance playing bloodelves, nightborne and the occasionally Vulpera Because as classic has shown Transitioning from Vanilla to TBC you need other players to play this game. And alliance had been Hemoraging players ever since CATA and that process has been speeding up ever since.

Horde as always been overtly in their more dark methods, just look at any quest giving by eather an Orc, Forsaken, Goblin, or the occasional belf.

Alliance is more Subvertive with their dark methods, and quests that have questional methods are eather given By rogues, warlocks, deathknights and demons hunters or are giving by a person that had been slighted by the horde personally within the last 5 minutes.

[Lolites]

Imagine thinking that Blizzard's bias is in favor of the ALLIANCE. You start wars with us like every three expansions, destroy our cities, we're NEVER allowed to inflict real consequences for that, you just overthrow your own leader, not for us, but for dicking with YOUR people, and call it good enough. And Sylvanas will probably get away with it all anyway, get a redemption arc, and we'll have to swallow being told what a great person this genocidal maniac death Nazi is.

yeah, horde should get punished like alliance does, you remember how Jaina commited ethnic purge and get told "bad Jaina" and that was it? she wasnt even removed as Garrosh/Sylvanas, she literaly get MORE POWERFUL POSITION...
or Genn attacking during armistice, who wasnt even scolded, or alliance, the "good guys" blamelessly burning people and cities, bcs that is soo much better than horde blighting them...
btw, as for the horde always starting wars, sure they started last, but the previous (hapening during cata-panda) was declared by Varian...

i agree, when horde does bad shit, the "punishment" of removing leader is laughable, but hell, its still way more harsh than on the alliance side...

[Soon-TM]

Horde as always been overtly in their more dark methods, just look at any quest giving by eather an Orc, Forsaken, Goblin, or the occasional belf.

Alliance is more Subvertive with their dark methods, and quests that have questional methods are eather given By rogues, warlocks, deathknights and demons hunters or are giving by a person that had been slighted by the horde personally within the last 5 minutes.

I don't see orc questgivers as particularly "dark", they are mostly "kill a bunch of X mobs" or "bring me the head of Y named mob", i.e. not terribly different to anything Alliance. Forsaken are (or were) certainly darker, but Goblins? They are the joke race, along with Gnomes lmao.

And it isn't the fault of Horde players if Allies can't get over their MuH H1gH ElV3z pl0x QQ, and move to Horde instead to play them. It's almost an act of poetic justice

[VladlTutushkin]

yeah, horde should get punished like alliance does, you remember how Jaina commited ethnic purge and get told "bad Jaina" and that was it? she wasnt even removed as Garrosh/Sylvanas, she literaly get MORE POWERFUL POSITION...
or Genn attacking during armistice, who wasnt even scolded, or alliance, the "good guys" blamelessly burning people and cities, bcs that is soo much better than horde blighting them...
btw, as for the horde always starting wars, sure they started last, but the previous (hapening during cata-panda) was declared by Varian...

i agree, when horde does bad shit, the "punishment" of removing leader is laughable, but hell, its still way more harsh than on the alliance side...

Lol. You can have Genn if we first genocide your nations, throw you into the dirt and humiliate you repeatedly.

Then you can MAYBE kill Genn and be satisfied with it, returning to your ashes, ruins and poisoned wastes left of your cities.

[Zig Zug]

The Horde in bfa was broken beyond repair. My takes can fix it.

That's not what fix means bud.

Also, is it not broken beyond repair if you can fix it, with your...takes, lol.

[geco]

It's been quite some time since WC2. I'd wager that most Horde players weren't enticed by a bunch of demonic addled murderhobos, but rather by (early) Thrall's Horde, which just sought a place in this world while fighting the ghosts of the past.

The good times when WoW weren't good traitors against bad cowards

yeah, horde should get punished like alliance does, you remember how Jaina commited ethnic purge and get told "bad Jaina" and that was it? she wasnt even removed as Garrosh/Sylvanas, she literaly get MORE POWERFUL POSITION...
or Genn attacking during armistice, who wasnt even scolded, or alliance, the "good guys" blamelessly burning people and cities, bcs that is soo much better than horde blighting them...
btw, as for the horde always starting wars, sure they started last, but the previous (hapening during cata-panda) was declared by Varian...

i agree, when horde does bad shit, the "punishment" of removing leader is laughable, but hell, its still way more harsh than on the alliance side...

Point 1 there is a difference between killing all Argentines living in the US and killing all Argentines living in Argentina.

Point 2. When were Garrosh or Sylvanas "punished" for doing something bad to the alliance? They were punished for doing something bad to the Horde.
All but one traitor in the Horde agreed with Teldrazzil. The Horde rebelled against Slyvanas because he decided to punish someone from the Horde. The Horde does not like to be punished.

Lol. You can have Genn if we first genocide your nations, throw you into the dirt and humiliate you repeatedly.

Then you can MAYBE kill Genn and be satisfied with it, returning to your ashes, ruins and poisoned wastes left of your cities.

Maybe they can see how the Alliance kills Genn and sends you a "thank you."

[Paperfox]

If there is a bias, then it is towards the Horde and against the Alliance - and I say this as someone who mostly plays Horde.

[Lolites]

Point 1 there is a difference between killing all Argentines living in the US and killing all Argentines living in Argentina.

yes, one is ethnic purge one is genocide, both are equal to mass murder and deserve punishment, NOT PROMOTION

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Point 2. When were Garrosh or Sylvanas "punished" for doing something bad to the alliance? They were punished for doing something bad to the Horde."

id sugest you read war crimes novel

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All but one traitor in the Horde agreed with Teldrazzil. The Horde rebelled against Slyvanas because he decided to punish someone from the Horde. The Horde does not like to be punished.

which is completely besides my point if you actualy read my comment, as i said, yes, removing leader is laughable punishment for horde, but alliance doesnt even get that...

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Lol. You can have Genn if we first genocide your nations, throw you into the dirt and humiliate you repeatedly.

Then you can MAYBE kill Genn and be satisfied with it, returning to your ashes, ruins and poisoned wastes left of your cities.

thing is you cant have it both ways, yeling how horde commits war crimes and how alliance is on moral high ground, and then when alliance leader commits war crime wave it as horde did worse... thats hypocritical as hell, and shows you dont mind mass murders/genocides/whatever, as long as its not agains alliance...

[VladlTutushkin]

yes, one is ethnic purge one is genocide, both are equal to mass murder and deserve punishment, NOT PROMOTION

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id sugest you read war crimes novel

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which is completely besides my point if you actualy read my comment, as i said, yes, removing leader is laughable punishment for horde, but alliance doesnt even get that...

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thing is you cant have it both ways, yeling how horde commits war crimes and how alliance is on moral high ground, and then when alliance leader commits war crime wave it as horde did worse... thats hypocritical as hell, and shows you dont mind mass murders/genocides/whatever, as long as its not agains alliance...

Thats where you are wrong. Dalaran was NOT a genocide. If anything it was less violent then some actual city-wide pogroms in real history that are not considered genocidal events.

Taurajo was dont hell and back and it was decided that Alliance commander Hawthorne did all he could to prevent civilian casualties, although he failed to predict Quilboars moving their tribes to attack tauren later on.

I very much mind obscene crimes, but Alliance almost never commits those. Last one we had was in Vanilla , and EVERYBODY responsible for it is dead. Even father of a dude who did that who had nothing to do with it is dead.

What i am saying is that - if you REALLY want to "measure the crimes" then be ready, be fucken prepared to receive. And you will NOT like that.

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The good times when WoW weren't good traitors against bad cowards


Point 1 there is a difference between killing all Argentines living in the US and killing all Argentines living in Argentina.

Point 2. When were Garrosh or Sylvanas "punished" for doing something bad to the alliance? They were punished for doing something bad to the Horde.
All but one traitor in the Horde agreed with Teldrazzil. The Horde rebelled against Slyvanas because he decided to punish someone from the Horde. The Horde does not like to be punished.


Maybe they can see how the Alliance kills Genn and sends you a "thank you."

They will help us beat Genn and his worgens by sending a spy-dog to his hideout while Alliance takes it by storm. Then Genn will escape and be killed by Anduin later on while Horde hides behind a rock to watch.

[MikeBogina]

Imagine thinking that Blizzard's bias is in favor of the ALLIANCE. You start wars with us

Blizzard admitted there was Alliance bias from the start and didn't address it until Cataclysm.

also "you", almost immediately you go from understanding this is a fictional universe that's in a game... to roleplaying. Do you then think blizzard are the gods, the invisible hand?

start wars with us like every three expansions

every war in the lore, since Warcraft 3 has been started by the Alliance. The Horde then retaliate harder.

we're NEVER allowed to inflict real consequences for that

And We're never allowed to enjoy better cities, characters that stick around for long, or have our characters important to main plot unless Blizzard uses us as the villains...

you just overthrow your own leader, not for us

imagine how much fun that is :|

And Sylvanas will probably get away with it all anyway, get a redemption arc, and we'll have to swallow being told what a great person this genocidal maniac death Nazi is.

I know, if only your alliance characters could be used as the villains for once, so we didn't have to lose ours :|

[Sevyvia]

The absolutely insane levels of delusion required to think that WoW has an Alliance bias. Holy shit.

[geco]

yes, one is ethnic purge one is genocide, both are equal to mass murder and deserve punishment, NOT PROMOTION

But no one trusted Sylvanas. She set a tree on fire and suddenly the whole world trusts her. It is a Promotion.

id sugest you read war crimes novel

Which part? I remember reading it from above. But almost always when the Horde complained about Garroshes because Garrosh did bad things to them or because he broke some treaty. I never saw them get mad at killing alliance civilians or something similar.

which is completely besides my point if you actualy read my comment, as i said, yes, removing leader is laughable punishment for horde, but alliance doesnt even get that...

It has to do with the subject. Because you say that Jaina must be punished for the purge. But at the same time, no one punishes Sylvanas for Teldrazzil. So answer me. When was the Horde punished for her wrongdoing against the Alliance in a major way?

Besides. Because it is the Horde that defeats the evil Warchief. Horde chiefs are not eliminated to punish the Horde. Enemy them to REWARD the Horde.

Does it seem absurd to you that the prize of the Horde is to kill Sylvanas and win pj as Calia? Well maybe with that idea you can see that the real source of the problem is not the Alliance. But what comes from above.

----edit---

Blizzard admitted there was Alliance bias from the start and didn't address it until Cataclysm.

also "you", almost immediately you go from understanding this is a fictional universe that's in a game... to roleplaying. Do you then think blizzard are the gods, the invisible hand?


every war in the lore, since Warcraft 3 has been started by the Alliance. The Horde then retaliate harder.

And We're never allowed to enjoy better cities, characters that stick around for long, or have our characters important to main plot unless Blizzard uses us as the villains...

imagine how much fun that is :|

I know, if only your alliance characters could be used as the villains for once, so we didn't have to lose ours :|

The US fights against Russia. So does the US have a Brazzil bias?

So that Blizzard treats the Horde badly does not mean that it is in favor of the alliance. It is more if you see all the stories as they tell you over and over again. The Alliance is usually never part of history.

When an Alliance PC becomes an important PC it is because they are not acting on behalf of the Alliance.
Look at Legion. You have Maiev .. he hates the Alliance. Kadgar who abandoned the Alliance, Illidian enemy of the alliance and Valen who never really did anything for the alliance and usually passes from it.

The alliance is like the other two allied nations of Minas Tirit that are not the Rohonin. They are, they won, they did not suffer casualties. But they don't do anything really important at the end of the day.

Or rather the alliance are like Aragon's friends. Only here would be the friends of Anduin and Jainas. Yes and in the end some appeared and died.


---Edit---

To give you an idea we have a short story of the romance of two leaders of the Horde.
But we don't know yet how the Kaldorei joined the alliance or why Maiev and Tyrande get along when they are in conflict since W3.

[Ardenaso]

If there is a bias, then it is towards the Horde and against the Alliance - and I say this as someone who mostly plays Horde.

it's neither Horde nor Alliance bias, it's Alliance Humans bias

[Verdugo]

The absolutely insane levels of delusion required to think that WoW has an Alliance bias. Holy shit.

Show me one Horde leader you were fighting in a raid that you were forced to help next patch.

Although I give you one thing... Its not Alliance bias, its Human bias.

[VladlTutushkin]

Show me one Horde leader you were fighting in a raid that you were forced to help next patch.

Although I give you one thing... Its not Alliance bias, its Human bias.

Show me an Alliance leader who inflicted a genocide on a Horde race, experimented on them, attacked them with extreme prejudice for years and caused more damage then Scourge and Legion first.

[Feanoro]

Show me an Alliance leader who inflicted a genocide on a Horde race, experimented on them, attacked them with extreme prejudice for years and caused more damage then Scourge and Legion first.

"Arthas!" and "muh work camps!" in 3, 2, 1...

[geco]

Show me one Horde leader you were fighting in a raid that you were forced to help next patch.

Although I give you one thing... Its not Alliance bias, its Human bias.

Varrock?
Well it was not a raid but it has the same spirit.

But since he is a friend of Anduin, he must be forgiven. Everyone follows the straight blond white man with light blue eyes that if women do not agree with him they are corrupt. He is the symbol of non-toxic masculinity.

[Jackstraw]

Show me an Alliance leader who inflicted a genocide on a Horde race, experimented on them, attacked them with extreme prejudice for years and caused more damage then Scourge and Legion first.

Genn or Shaw, both equally in charge of the Vulpera purging commando given their role on the Zuldazar war campaign.
That got retconned because the Alliance playerbase does not sit well with being even slightly aggressive, which tells loads about consequences and reactions.
The dwarves mining the everliving hell out of Tauren burial grounds and decimating entire tribes, so by proxy one of the Bronzebeards.
Yrel with the Mag'hars, forcing them to migrate from AU Draenor and join the Horde. Although technically not counting as an Alliance leader, and thus allowed to do bad things.
This does not count as years of torment, but the Humans tried to sink a ship with most of the surviving Goblins from the Kezan disaster on it, to cover for their kidnapping of Thrall, and subsequent instant deployment of a military contingent to retrieve Thrall and employ lethal force.
Let's never forget this too: during the Legion invasion, Genn led an attack on the Forsaken fleet, at the time the only sizable force deployed on the homefront. It's not a genocide, or an attack without prejudice because facts show that Genn is a dumb mutt, hardly relevant to anything but being a poorly written father figure, but it shows the reach of Alliance's self righteousness and the pretense of being always right.

[VladlTutushkin]

Genn or Shaw, both equally in charge of the Vulpera purging commando given their role on the Zuldazar war campaign.
That got retconned because the Alliance playerbase does not sit well with being even slightly aggressive, which tells loads about consequences and reactions.
The dwarves mining the everliving hell out of Tauren burial grounds and decimating entire tribes, so by proxy one of the Bronzebeards.
Yrel with the Mag'hars, forcing them to migrate from AU Draenor and join the Horde. Although technically not counting as an Alliance leader, and thus allowed to do bad things.
This does not count as years of torment, but the Humans tried to sink a ship with most of the surviving Goblins from the Kezan disaster on it, to cover for their kidnapping of Thrall, and subsequent instant deployment of a military contingent to retrieve Thrall and employ lethal force.
Let's never forget this too: during the Legion invasion, Genn led an attack on the Forsaken fleet, at the time the only sizable force deployed on the homefront. It's not a genocide, or an attack without prejudice because facts show that Genn is a dumb mutt, hardly relevant to anything but being a poorly written father figure, but it shows the reach of Alliance's self righteousness and the pretense of being always right.

So…

An event that was retconned aka never existed in official canon.

Event that happened in Vanilla and EVERYBODY (and i stress it - everybody) responsible for it are now dead.

Event committed by a non-Alliance character.

Event that always tethers on a brink of retcon since Blizz apparently dont like how goblin starting experience panned out…

And event that was retroactively justified because Sylvanas was up to no good as usual. Oh and she started the whole grudge match with Genn when she decided to end his entire people and Blight their Kingdom.

You grasping for straws here, Jackstraw.

[Jackstraw]

So…

You grasping for straws here, Jackstraw.

I'm not grasping at anything, lad.

Facts are as presented. The whiny attitude of a faction's playerbase prevents any consequence because god forbid actions had any.

The Alliance bias is as presented: any bad is washed of any possible guilt by an abudance of retcons, and the Horde exists to push the righteous idea of a faction that has to be good, and can't do no bad.
Said faction has the gall to complain that the Horde pushes the narrative and the Alliance can't do anything but react, ignoring the fact that catering to their need chokes any possible narrative evolution that's not retaliating to the Horde. But at this point the game is over.

Point me to anyone who knows who escalated the conflict in Cataclysm and why.

I might be grasping at straws, but am I debating with the stereotypical cardboard Alliance fanboy? Or with someone that can discuss the nuance and problems at hand?

Infracted.