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  1. #1

    Question: Did the Shen'dralar take back Dire Maul West wing?

    I know we (horde) kicked them out in classic - which leads them eventually to the alliance. In hte mean time the central part is mostly used for slavers and illegal arena fights/brawls (Logosh storyline)
    But, in cata, we go back in there for them. (Estulan doesn't care who you are aligned to) and this implies it is adventurers not the factions that answer the call [freelance? Merc - basically we are not doing it on behalf of the horde). We do the quests for him.
    In Legion, we (DKs) have to go to Dire Maul Shen'dralar to get info
    In BFA, Wrathion goes to them in Eldre'thalas for info on the void because they were very familiar.


    Which also makes me wonder, is Blizzard setting up the alliance as the void experts? So far we have the void elves and the Shen'dralar being very knowledgeable about it, the Black Moon order of the Elune Priesthood, the Night warrior shows the night elves know the void counterpart to the light well enough - the encounter in the Tomb of Sargeras (Cathedral of Eternal Night) at the Font of Elune where we had the bright side of the moon (arcane) and the dark side of the moon (void) also backs this up. and the alliance also has the more powerful priest orders - in the draenei, humans and night elven priest orders.

    the horde has forsaken who use shadow, the Mag'har are the void enthusiasts, the Zandalari priests seem far more keyed into the unique powers of their loa than any light/void - but they do have those who wield that.
    Last edited by Beloren; 2021-06-03 at 10:55 PM.

  2. #2
    They're considered Alliance, therefore no, they didn't regain anything. If they do, it will be a grudging couple of sentences in a shitty novel, never to be reflected in game.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    They're considered Alliance, therefore no, they didn't regain anything. If they do, it will be a grudging couple of sentences in a shitty novel, never to be reflected in game.
    So you feel blizzard don't really care about the alliance, but if they did, they'd have taken these elements a lot more seriously?

    I don't think that's true, because you get a lot of human stuff ... I mean Anduin, Jaina, Turalyon etc..

  4. #4
    The corrupt leadership was basically assassinated in Vanilla, ending the corrupt practices, and allowing (or forcing) the Highborne to ween themselves off corrupt magics. Daros and Mordent led efforts in Dalaran and Darnassus to reconnect the Highborne with the Night Elves proper in Wrath. Night Elves were still suspicious of the Highborne generally during the Cataclysm, but because of the level of threat at the time they allowed Night Elf mages to reintegrate and to be trained. Mordent survived an assassination attempt, and since then the remnants of the Shen'dralar Highborne have continued to fight as Kaldorei up through and including the events of Darkshore.

    The Shen'dralar used to be keepers of all kinds of secrets. There was one point where they knew the location of the Ashbringer, before it reappeared in Vanilla Naxx. But, since they were weened off their magic in their isolation, it seems their heads are now clear and with peace the forerunning ambition of characters like Mordent particularly, it seems the Highborne have thus far finally reacclimated to Night Elf society and don't seem to harbor any of the corruption they used to. Mordent continues to be a shining example of the good the Night Elves can continue to do with magic, if properly held in check. The libraries that Wrathion looked through were notably abandoned and not at all held together, frankly in disrepair -- so while the Shen'dralar Highborne at one point may have turned to corrupt secrets and knowledge (I mean honestly they were probably forced to collect that information from the now deceased corrupt leadership) now with the leadership of Mordent things finally seem to be on the up and up for the Shen'dralar and it would appear that their dark history is behind them. The Void Elves are more the Void specialists, now. Only the remnants of corrupt knowledge were useful to Wrathion. If the Shen'dralar were corrupt now -- with his agents everywhere, the Black Prince would have known about it and would have probably revealed the corruption within the Night Elves if it were there. I'd like to think people like Mordent and maybe Maiev keep an eye on things, but more importantly their weening and isolation before reintegrating into Night Elf society has apparently done wonders from Wrath through BFA. If the Shen'dralar Highborne were going to be corrupt, it'd probably be under the thumb of some corrupt Highborne leader -- and at the very least, Mordent wouldn't be that person.

    As far as setting up the Alliance to be void experts, I'd argue it's both a Light and a Void specialty (I mean, it was pretty obvious with the introduction of Void Elves AND Lightforged Draenei). The Horde has a focus on primal powers traditionally - elements, loa, things like that. It would probably follow with this theming, for example, that we would sooner see developments like Forsaken and Blood Elf Shaman and Druids to kind of combat the rise of Light and Void forces within the Alliance - but that'd just be my personal speculation.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Which also makes me wonder, is Blizzard setting up the alliance as the void experts?
    The Alliance has been set up as an expert for almost all of the big cosmic forces. The Lightforged represent the light and the Velves represent it's opposing force in the void, the Nelves are the quintessential life race, Dalaran is heavily Alliance leaning when push comes to shove, so we could sort of consider arcane pretty heavily covered. I'm not really considering the elements as they're sort of small fish, but even then they seem to have a more plentiful supply of capable shaman since Thrall (who was pretty shit shaman, honestly) lost his mojo.

    The only thing the Horde seems to have a better grasp on is death, represented by the Forsaken. They've kind of taken a shit kicking with losing ~~their whole identity~~ Sylvanas but I'd still consider them a bit more well versed in death than any race on the Alliance.

    Chaos is a toss up. Depends on how you consider Illidan, I suppose, or whether or not he's even relevant now, otherwise the warlocky stuff is pretty evening mixed and the demon hunter stuff is too.

    I had been hoping they'd load the Alliance and Horde with opposing forces so the faction conflict would actually be have something to it other than "lmao random acts of genocide for no reason until later when we finally think of a reason and write it in."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    So you feel blizzard don't really care about the alliance, but if they did, they'd have taken these elements a lot more seriously?

    I don't think that's true, because you get a lot of human stuff ... I mean Anduin, Jaina, Turalyon etc..
    Yeah, because Alliance sure wants to be Humans and Slightly Different Humans.

    They have openly said 1) they prefer to write Horde, and 2) when they do write Alliance, they write humans because it's easier that way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    I had been hoping they'd load the Alliance and Horde with opposing forces so the faction conflict would actually be have something to it
    That'd certainly be more interesting than what we get.

    "lmao random acts of genocide because Horde fans demand it (and can't understand why the business model won't permit wiping out the Alliance) until later when we finally think of a reason and write it in."
    Fixed that for you.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    The Alliance has been set up as an expert for almost all of the big cosmic forces. The Lightforged represent the light and the Velves represent it's opposing force in the void, the Nelves are the quintessential life race, Dalaran is heavily Alliance leaning when push comes to shove, so we could sort of consider arcane pretty heavily covered. I'm not really considering the elements as they're sort of small fish, but even then they seem to have a more plentiful supply of capable shaman since Thrall (who was pretty shit shaman, honestly) lost his mojo.

    The only thing the Horde seems to have a better grasp on is death, represented by the Forsaken. They've kind of taken a shit kicking with losing ~~their whole identity~~ Sylvanas but I'd still consider them a bit more well versed in death than any race on the Alliance.

    Chaos is a toss up. Depends on how you consider Illidan, I suppose, or whether or not he's even relevant now, otherwise the warlocky stuff is pretty evening mixed and the demon hunter stuff is too.

    I had been hoping they'd load the Alliance and Horde with opposing forces so the faction conflict would actually be have something to it other than "lmao random acts of genocide for no reason until later when we finally think of a reason and write it in."
    I'd give void and light to the Alliance easily, between the ren'dorei and the lightforged/draenei. Life probably goes to the kal'dorei, though given the prominent Horde druid races, I think it's less strong than the first two. Between orcs and sin'dorei, I think Horde has the monopoly on fel, and I'd give arcane to the shal'dorei. Death is the realm of the forsaken and otherwise evenly dispersed for DKs, so I'd give that one to the Horde as well.

  8. #8
    No, the opposite - they've canonically abandoned Dire Maul:

    As I suspected, little of what the Shen'dralar collected in their archives survived their flight from Eldre'thalas. Still, there was some knowledge to be gleaned from the tomes they were forced to leave behind as they escaped the Horde's aggression.
    From Wrathion's Journal, which takes place during Legion at earliest and BFA more likely.

    The Shen'dralar in general are a bottomless pit of illogic, but at least when it comes to the feats that a minority of a minority were capable of Blizzard didn't have these clowns reclaim an entire city off-screen and thankfully their dipping into the Void is relegated solely to a throw-away line in that book. Even then, what it likely is is a throw-back to the fact that the demon that they were sucking on for several thousand years was a void hound back when there was no distinction between demons and void in Vanilla.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-04 at 08:23 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    I'd give void and light to the Alliance easily, between the ren'dorei and the lightforged/draenei. Life probably goes to the kal'dorei, though given the prominent Horde druid races, I think it's less strong than the first two. Between orcs and sin'dorei, I think Horde has the monopoly on fel, and I'd give arcane to the shal'dorei. Death is the realm of the forsaken and otherwise evenly dispersed for DKs, so I'd give that one to the Horde as well.
    Blizz have made it clear that they don't divide factions according to opposites. if they did, the blood elves would never have left the alliance. And warlocks won't be available on the alliance, same with druids, on horde, paladin on horde or shaman on alliance


    Up to Wc3, nature, arcane was an alliance thing, void and fel a horde thing. Well, in wow they fleshed out the elements going to shaman from druids - druids could still do elemental stuff, but it was not their focus at least in-game. They also started with shadow and death, then void came in, and fora while they were an extension of the other, then different. Fel we got a lot more insight into.

    but all it shows is they won't divide them like that. Yes it would have made sense if light was on the alliance and void on the horde.. but no matter how you want to cut it, you can't separate any of the magical forces cleanly bet2een the factions.

    Night elf fans are very vocal about their race's arcane heritage they think we are trying to steal, basically the matters of magic come down ot each race, and races have 1 to several types they are strong in. Evles are a bit more detailed on themagic side than other races, but no race has "one" thing in warcraft.

    I think in DnD and other fantasies, this is most often the case, so it's easy to port that into wow, but you soon find out that it doesn't hold steam.

    if they had left it with the lore they worked in wC3.

    Horde would pretty much have only the elements and fel for magic - but the horde is stronger in physical classes, maybe blood magic and poison can be added
    Alliance would have light and arcane, alliance is more magical thanks to high elves and humans
    Night elves would have the arcane and nature: at first, when they were introduced, they were intensely magical focused, but then in their original introduction, they were also the oldest race
    Undead would have death and shadow (then later void if that developed), this is where all the necromantic arts, the death stuff would all creep in.

    Night elves would be like an alliance counterpart, like a different faction of good guys a purer set of good guys to the more nuanced alliance. Whereas the forsaken would have been a darker more sinister evil to the now more nuanced Thrall led horde.

    But then in this picture, the alliance would still have high elves, dwarves and humans. night elves would an entire faction that would gain strength combining their pre-sundering and long vigil expertise. The undead would be a faction that likely the forsaken would be DK like leaders amongst them.

    The Illidari may have brought something new, probably a faction with Fel and void magical focus.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    No, the opposite - they've canonically abandoned Dire Maul:


    From Wrathion's Journal, which takes place during Legion at earliest and BFA more likely.

    The Shen'dralar in general are a bottomless pit of illogic, but at least when it comes to the feats that a minority of a minority were capable of Blizzard didn't have these clowns reclaim an entire city off-screen and thankfully their dipping into the Void is relegated solely to a throw-away line in that book. Even then, what it likely is is a throw-back to the fact that the demon that they were sucking on for several thousand years was a void hound back when there was no distinction between demons and void in Vanilla.
    But the journal only refers to the flight from Dire Maul. There isn't much of the archives left in Dire Maul, at least not out in the open, because much of it was destroyed likely in our fight against them in Dire Maul west. That doesn't mean they aren't back there.

    if hey aren't, how do you explain the DK quest in legion that takes you back there? How do you explain our successful completion of Estulan's quest in cataclysm ? It is also telling we haven't seen Estulan and a large portion of the Shen'dralar since, could it be they've been working there all along?

    And illogic? The Shen'dralar are a tool. They were the means to give the night elves playable mages, and return the arcane wielding side of their past to their current destiny. With the nightborne away from the kaldorei, they are are the means to continue the night elves' development of their arcane legacy and likely unite their societies' various walks of life to recover from the blow of the war of thorns.

    if the devs mean to improve the Night elves, you can be sure the Shen'dralar would play a role. Unless they do the unthinkable and involve the nightborne. Since the Nightbonre have gone horde, that leaves the Shen'dralar again.

    i think there willbe more from them.

    Remember, the high elves also seemed an illogic bottom less pit, but they kept t hem around, they knew they would have a purpose for them later.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The corrupt leadership was basically assassinated in Vanilla, ending the corrupt practices, and allowing (or forcing) the Highborne to ween themselves off corrupt magics. Daros and Mordent led efforts in Dalaran and Darnassus to reconnect the Highborne with the Night Elves proper in Wrath. Night Elves were still suspicious of the Highborne generally during the Cataclysm, but because of the level of threat at the time they allowed Night Elf mages to reintegrate and to be trained. Mordent survived an assassination attempt, and since then the remnants of the Shen'dralar Highborne have continued to fight as Kaldorei up through and including the events of Darkshore.

    The Shen'dralar used to be keepers of all kinds of secrets. There was one point where they knew the location of the Ashbringer, before it reappeared in Vanilla Naxx. But, since they were weened off their magic in their isolation, it seems their heads are now clear and with peace the forerunning ambition of characters like Mordent particularly, it seems the Highborne have thus far finally reacclimated to Night Elf society and don't seem to harbor any of the corruption they used to. Mordent continues to be a shining example of the good the Night Elves can continue to do with magic, if properly held in check. The libraries that Wrathion looked through were notably abandoned and not at all held together, frankly in disrepair -- so while the Shen'dralar Highborne at one point may have turned to corrupt secrets and knowledge (I mean honestly they were probably forced to collect that information from the now deceased corrupt leadership) now with the leadership of Mordent things finally seem to be on the up and up for the Shen'dralar and it would appear that their dark history is behind them. The Void Elves are more the Void specialists, now. Only the remnants of corrupt knowledge were useful to Wrathion. If the Shen'dralar were corrupt now -- with his agents everywhere, the Black Prince would have known about it and would have probably revealed the corruption within the Night Elves if it were there. I'd like to think people like Mordent and maybe Maiev keep an eye on things, but more importantly their weening and isolation before reintegrating into Night Elf society has apparently done wonders from Wrath through BFA. If the Shen'dralar Highborne were going to be corrupt, it'd probably be under the thumb of some corrupt Highborne leader -- and at the very least, Mordent wouldn't be that person.

    As far as setting up the Alliance to be void experts, I'd argue it's both a Light and a Void specialty (I mean, it was pretty obvious with the introduction of Void Elves AND Lightforged Draenei). The Horde has a focus on primal powers traditionally - elements, loa, things like that. It would probably follow with this theming, for example, that we would sooner see developments like Forsaken and Blood Elf Shaman and Druids to kind of combat the rise of Light and Void forces within the Alliance - but that'd just be my personal speculation.
    A Highborne warden alignment to police magic would be an interesting development. There is a logic to it given how they've changed, and the experience of the kaldorei.

    But then they don't seem great enough to be policers of magic. The blue dragonflight did - but what do the shen'drlaar do? They just have a line about past accomplishments that like most things night elf, seem to speak to always read much bigger on paper than when they're shown in game.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post

    A Highborne warden alignment to police magic would be an interesting development. There is a logic to it given how they've changed, and the experience of the kaldorei.

    But then they don't seem great enough to be policers of magic. The blue dragonflight did - but what do the shen'drlaar do? They just have a line about past accomplishments that like most things night elf, seem to speak to always read much bigger on paper than when they're shown in game.
    you mean like they kaldorei empire/civilization they finally showed in it's pristine condition, that amazed everybody.. mark my words, when they show the Shen'dralar off seriously, they'll be very very impressive.

    Unless you retcon the lore, it is already stated, these guys were the empires most revered arcanists, and they processed the Queen's highest /top/best projects, often in secret - likely so she would claim the credit. they were the wonder engineers of all the "amazing" things the night elven civilization had, and the wonders.

    Blizzard wrote this..this is why Mordent Evenshade has a line that says "the magic of this age, pales in comparison to the wonders of before". The lore supports this and is very clear that the kaldorei empire was Azeroths golden age and highest age of arcane magic, that no other civilization has reached.

    FYI, the Nightborne in Suramar is not another civilization, it is the same civilization. People think the Shen'dralar are rubbish because Dire Maul is in ruins and they see Suramar all pristine, so look down on them, - it's because these people don't consider the lore and don't really care about night elves.

    you also see the Nightborne in action a lot, being part of the focus of an entire expansion, whereas the Shen'dralar weren't used. when they appeared, you don't even fight them in Dire Maul, nor do you fight them or see them in action in Cataclysm. it's their new recruits and returned Highborne they are rebuilding that you see in Azshara zone, in stonetalon they just send you on quests.

    In the WoT, it was felt they had a much more urgent use in making portals and only Mordant shows up briefly for the Darkshore Warfront, which he wins btw, because canonically, it's the night elves that win that warfront.

    Nightborne vs Shen'dralar:

    Magical knowledge and skill/expertise:
    Shen'dralar win here: They've been furiously and feverishly studying the arcane for 10,000 years, even in their corrupted state, this was forte
    They loved and eschewed knowledge, as is clearly evident by the quests involving them, including Shen'dralar reputation. The Nightborne on the other hand had fully functioning city so knowledge and mastery of the arcane wasn't their sole focus

    2. The Nightborne had chronomancy magic to focus on too, and delved into nature magic too. whereas the Shen'dralar was solely arcane magic

    We have not seen what Eldre'thalas was in it's glory before it fell to ruins, if they were to redo it again, it would look much better. Not Suramar level, but likely close, and it would be full of extraordinary wonders

    Ahead of the curve:
    shen'dralar would have been ahead of the curve. Ever watched the TV series called Eureka? they'd be a bit like that but for magic, and a city instead of a town. They'd have had frontier stuff not even ready to be released let alone the existing wonders lost to the sundering would all be in the heads of these people.

    3. Nightborne stagnated a lot
    while they did advance in magic, it was slow, and sluggish, things took ages to update, the counter is that the Shen'dralar would not have been able to churn out the same level of things they could with the well of eternity, but their arcane theory and knowledge would have drastically improved.


    Magical Combat:
    Here the Nightborne win. The Duskguard are Moon Guard that stayed to protect the city, the Moonguard stronghold night elves pretty much confirm this, one of the quests sends you into Suramar to retrieve an item of power one of the Moonguard masters had loaned to his student who had stayed in the city. We collect this item in the Court of Stars instance.

    We know the Moonguard are the best magical combatants known to the races, both in legend and blizzard shows this, they are able to take massive chunks out of a much larger invading Nightborne force from the city that is Nightwell empowered too, this is their level of skill. IT stands to reason that the Duskguard are very similarly inclined. The differences is the current Moonguard would be far more combat ready and better suited to fighting having had to live out of a bubble in a wild country and dangerous world for 10.000 years, and deal with the aftermath of the 3rd war too.. remember the naga and demons fought when the Cathedral of Eternal night, aka as the Tomb of Sargeras to humans, was raised up, and Maiev's wardens headed there to capture them.

    Still the Duskguard would be formidable magical combatants.

    The Shen'dralar, not so much, it is likely they also developed powerful arcane weapons for the Queen and techniques, but it is unlikely they'd have used them much. They did have to fight in the war of the ancients, so they're not pushovers, but they're not Nightborne or Moonguard level when it comes to combat.

    it is worth noticing that the player Nightborne would have very few of the Duskguard remaining as nearly all of them were Elisande loyalists whom we kill.

    Magical Power:
    Again the Nightborne win here, at least up till the end of Legion. The Nightwell hands down beat the energy from Immol'thar, The Nightborne had limitless power, but limited space, and most of their power was used to sustain themselves - they weren't building new things in that limited space, and we know it's the same city from 10k years ago, , but they got drunk of it's power, used it to make their clothes, weapons, and even feed themselves, they also had limitless power to do experiments and research, the Shen'dralar had all the power they needed, the lore tells us, and Totheldrinn ensured this remained by killing off most of the city to keep the net flow positive from the demon.

    My point is that though the Nightborne had more power, it doesn't mean much. They were more powerful up to when the Nightwell goes. Now they'd be considerably weaker.

    Should the Shen'dralar gain access to a powerful source of magic, they'd be formidable, as they'd have the great arcane expertise and knowledge. Leaders before the sundering in magical knowledge and having continuously studied and researched in the 10,000 years since.. this is heavy.


    Conclusion
    If they follow their own lore, without a doubt the fore most experts in magical knowledge and study would be in the night elf corner through:
    1. Shen'dralar - have all the ancient knowledge lost, have had 10k years of further study and research, were the great wonder workers and spied on everyone else's progress collecting knowledge.. the few limited pieces of magic that the high elves reclaimed and then taught the humans, and all their new advancements (yes, they would have new advancements in a few areas that surpass the night elf empire - remember it is the high elves that spread magical knowledge, and they were great at some things, like portals etc - so while they lost a huge amount, they'd have retained some and advanced on those, also we know Dalaran and Karazhan gathered a lot of the lost elven knowledge, and this is the premium platinum gold for mages, they hunt for this lost knowledge and the Shen'dralar already have it

    2. The Farondis Highborne have the Nar'thalas scholars, the greatest academics of the era, with the greatest magical academy where even dragons and elves worked together, before Azshara's arrogance and pride destroyed it. the people are still there, should blizzard ever choose to let the live on, they'd be an awesome boost to that front too.

    3. The Moonguard. While neutral now, and very few, the thing is, it is their greatest masters, and leaders, the most skilled that survived. (same with the kaldorei in the WoT), this means they can train a whole new generation of the best magical combatants.


    These 3 groups together working with the wardens, would be powerful , knowledgeable and skilled enough to actually police the magic wielded by Dalaran and Silvermoon. Suramar is the only one that is near their level. however if it becomes a neutral organisation led by them mostly, with void elves, Nightborne and even some blue dragons, like the ones in Azsuna, then hands down they'll do the job.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    you mean like they kaldorei empire/civilization they finally showed in it's pristine condition, that amazed everybody.. mark my words, when they show the Shen'dralar off seriously, they'll be very very impressive.

    Unless you retcon the lore, it is already stated, these guys were the empires most revered arcanists, and they processed the Queen's highest /top/best projects, often in secret - likely so she would claim the credit. they were the wonder engineers of all the "amazing" things the night elven civilization had, and the wonders.

    Blizzard wrote this..this is why Mordent Evenshade has a line that says "the magic of this age, pales in comparison to the wonders of before". The lore supports this and is very clear that the kaldorei empire was Azeroths golden age and highest age of arcane magic, that no other civilization has reached.

    FYI, the Nightborne in Suramar is not another civilization, it is the same civilization. People think the Shen'dralar are rubbish because Dire Maul is in ruins and they see Suramar all pristine, so look down on them, - it's because these people don't consider the lore and don't really care about night elves.

    you also see the Nightborne in action a lot, being part of the focus of an entire expansion, whereas the Shen'dralar weren't used. when they appeared, you don't even fight them in Dire Maul, nor do you fight them or see them in action in Cataclysm. it's their new recruits and returned Highborne they are rebuilding that you see in Azshara zone, in stonetalon they just send you on quests.

    In the WoT, it was felt they had a much more urgent use in making portals and only Mordant shows up briefly for the Darkshore Warfront, which he wins btw, because canonically, it's the night elves that win that warfront.

    Nightborne vs Shen'dralar:

    Magical knowledge and skill/expertise:
    Shen'dralar win here: They've been furiously and feverishly studying the arcane for 10,000 years, even in their corrupted state, this was forte
    They loved and eschewed knowledge, as is clearly evident by the quests involving them, including Shen'dralar reputation. The Nightborne on the other hand had fully functioning city so knowledge and mastery of the arcane wasn't their sole focus

    2. The Nightborne had chronomancy magic to focus on too, and delved into nature magic too. whereas the Shen'dralar was solely arcane magic

    We have not seen what Eldre'thalas was in it's glory before it fell to ruins, if they were to redo it again, it would look much better. Not Suramar level, but likely close, and it would be full of extraordinary wonders

    Ahead of the curve:
    shen'dralar would have been ahead of the curve. Ever watched the TV series called Eureka? they'd be a bit like that but for magic, and a city instead of a town. They'd have had frontier stuff not even ready to be released let alone the existing wonders lost to the sundering would all be in the heads of these people.

    3. Nightborne stagnated a lot
    while they did advance in magic, it was slow, and sluggish, things took ages to update, the counter is that the Shen'dralar would not have been able to churn out the same level of things they could with the well of eternity, but their arcane theory and knowledge would have drastically improved.


    Magical Combat:
    Here the Nightborne win. The Duskguard are Moon Guard that stayed to protect the city, the Moonguard stronghold night elves pretty much confirm this, one of the quests sends you into Suramar to retrieve an item of power one of the Moonguard masters had loaned to his student who had stayed in the city. We collect this item in the Court of Stars instance.

    We know the Moonguard are the best magical combatants known to the races, both in legend and blizzard shows this, they are able to take massive chunks out of a much larger invading Nightborne force from the city that is Nightwell empowered too, this is their level of skill. IT stands to reason that the Duskguard are very similarly inclined. The differences is the current Moonguard would be far more combat ready and better suited to fighting having had to live out of a bubble in a wild country and dangerous world for 10.000 years, and deal with the aftermath of the 3rd war too.. remember the naga and demons fought when the Cathedral of Eternal night, aka as the Tomb of Sargeras to humans, was raised up, and Maiev's wardens headed there to capture them.

    Still the Duskguard would be formidable magical combatants.

    The Shen'dralar, not so much, it is likely they also developed powerful arcane weapons for the Queen and techniques, but it is unlikely they'd have used them much. They did have to fight in the war of the ancients, so they're not pushovers, but they're not Nightborne or Moonguard level when it comes to combat.

    it is worth noticing that the player Nightborne would have very few of the Duskguard remaining as nearly all of them were Elisande loyalists whom we kill.

    Magical Power:
    Again the Nightborne win here, at least up till the end of Legion. The Nightwell hands down beat the energy from Immol'thar, The Nightborne had limitless power, but limited space, and most of their power was used to sustain themselves - they weren't building new things in that limited space, and we know it's the same city from 10k years ago, , but they got drunk of it's power, used it to make their clothes, weapons, and even feed themselves, they also had limitless power to do experiments and research, the Shen'dralar had all the power they needed, the lore tells us, and Totheldrinn ensured this remained by killing off most of the city to keep the net flow positive from the demon.

    My point is that though the Nightborne had more power, it doesn't mean much. They were more powerful up to when the Nightwell goes. Now they'd be considerably weaker.

    Should the Shen'dralar gain access to a powerful source of magic, they'd be formidable, as they'd have the great arcane expertise and knowledge. Leaders before the sundering in magical knowledge and having continuously studied and researched in the 10,000 years since.. this is heavy.


    Conclusion
    If they follow their own lore, without a doubt the fore most experts in magical knowledge and study would be in the night elf corner through:
    1. Shen'dralar - have all the ancient knowledge lost, have had 10k years of further study and research, were the great wonder workers and spied on everyone else's progress collecting knowledge.. the few limited pieces of magic that the high elves reclaimed and then taught the humans, and all their new advancements (yes, they would have new advancements in a few areas that surpass the night elf empire - remember it is the high elves that spread magical knowledge, and they were great at some things, like portals etc - so while they lost a huge amount, they'd have retained some and advanced on those, also we know Dalaran and Karazhan gathered a lot of the lost elven knowledge, and this is the premium platinum gold for mages, they hunt for this lost knowledge and the Shen'dralar already have it

    2. The Farondis Highborne have the Nar'thalas scholars, the greatest academics of the era, with the greatest magical academy where even dragons and elves worked together, before Azshara's arrogance and pride destroyed it. the people are still there, should blizzard ever choose to let the live on, they'd be an awesome boost to that front too.

    3. The Moonguard. While neutral now, and very few, the thing is, it is their greatest masters, and leaders, the most skilled that survived. (same with the kaldorei in the WoT), this means they can train a whole new generation of the best magical combatants.


    These 3 groups together working with the wardens, would be powerful , knowledgeable and skilled enough to actually police the magic wielded by Dalaran and Silvermoon. Suramar is the only one that is near their level. however if it becomes a neutral organisation led by them mostly, with void elves, Nightborne and even some blue dragons, like the ones in Azsuna, then hands down they'll do the job.
    Oh Ravenmoon, you've just given an essay on why blizzard should give this to the horde. Like the Nightborne went horde, so to will this.

    You still don't get it, blizzard want to remove the arcane half of the night elves and give it to the horde. Once Nightborne went horde that was the only inevitable conclusion. What is more likely to happen is Shen'dralar mass defection to the horde, Moonguard already allied to the nightborne continue under the horde - and will just be night elven horde that are unplayable, just like high elves were.

    The night elf mages remaining would be the new Darnassian stock, that were been taught by the Shen'dralar but who are too deeply tied to the night elves. So you continue to have mages.

    you have just provided blizzard excellent reason to act and correct an oversight on their part.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Oh Ravenmoon, you've just given an essay on why blizzard should give this to the horde. Like the Nightborne went horde, so to will this.

    You still don't get it, blizzard want to remove the arcane half of the night elves and give it to the horde. Once Nightborne went horde that was the only inevitable conclusion. What is more likely to happen is Shen'dralar mass defection to the horde, Moonguard already allied to the nightborne continue under the horde - and will just be night elven horde that are unplayable, just like high elves were.

    The night elf mages remaining would be the new Darnassian stock, that were been taught by the Shen'dralar but who are too deeply tied to the night elves. So you continue to have mages.

    you have just provided blizzard excellent reason to act and correct an oversight on their part.
    Wha..? Where do you get this nonsense from? You and Tanaria can sometimes behave so smug - you seem convinced you know exactly how blizzard will behave in all things especially when it comes to keeping the things you like on the horde.

    Ever occurred to you that blizzard might not feel the same way? That they had plans for the night elves to actually properly improve and be the dual arcane and nature elven group they were originally laid out? What makes you think blizzard would give up on their most unique and wonder filled elven group to only shoe on them into your typical forest elf - you guys and Rhlor just love the night elves to be exclusively nature and primitive, and are all too happy to have their arcane side when it is packaged in a fancy city with powerful casters. So you can feel good about yourself and that you chose the best side and your position isn't threatened.

    The problem is all the things you are trying so hard to keep way from the alliance, so desperate for the alliance not to have (judging by the posts from some of you) were already there in the first place. The Nightborne come from the night elven civilization who are still there on the alliance - The night elves still have Highborne and they still have the most skilled wonder workers of the empire (Shen'dralar) greatest academics and arcane theorists amongst the humanoid races (Nar'thalas Farondis Highborne) and the most skilled magical combatants (Moonguard) - you think just because they've shown the horde some of these things it somehow means the alliance will never get it? Why would you think that? The blood elves, all come from the High elves, not only are high elves still on the alliance, but void elves, great magical scholars have left the blood elves to advance their magic as void elves and are with the alliance considerably bolstering the Thalassian presence.. do you think that somehow this magic that is actually a part of these alliance races and these civilizations will somehow be horde exclusive? They never were, and they still aren't. Why would they now go that way?

    you are trying to force a state that doesn't exist. it sounds true, but it isn't true, and you hope that by saying it, everyone would accept it as logical and agree. leaving no one to argue against your "horde should have all the magic " agenda.

    Look I didn't write the lore this way, blizzard did. Blizzard wrote Night elves, made them this elven origin race, made them arcane based, tied hand in hand with nature, they made high elves too on the alliance, and gave them that lore, Did you see them get rid of the high elves when the blood elves came? Did you see them remove the Highborne when the Nightborne came or when they went horde? No, think.. why? Because those things are part of the alliance kit and set up, they come from there, a part of it is borrowed to the horde, and that doesn't somehow automatically mean the alliance versions won't get development. That is just wishful thinking.

    Just because you see the assets in game on your side, doesn't mean the alliance won't get its development. All it means is that you can enjoy a version of these things on the horde (so you won't feel compelled to roll alliance to experience them even if the alliance gets better versions). The true identity and the value of the horde is not in the blood elves nor the Nightborne, these are all borrowed from the alliance who has the original versions of these races and full access to all their accomplishments, it is more likely horde development direction would shift in greater measure to the orcs, goblins, Trolls in particular, and new races that don't borrow from the alliance. Look at how successful both the Zandalari and Vulpera are, the horde no longer really needs the blood elves to sustain them by being the only visible version of high elven society, and they certainly don't need the kaldorei civilization too. they got a magnificent troll one, and Silvermoon too, most likely Suramar. So while they may have these, there is no reason for the alliance elves not to get theirs done properly as these elven things are primarily alliance anyway.

    It's very off putting. What if blizzard has more for the alliance, and for the night elves? Everyone knows they are one of the most wasted races in the game, hugely ignored despite all that early groundwork.. 3 books on the war of the ancients, and all the fancy arcane stuff you love in the Nightborne and Zin'Azshari is their stuff, then there is all the facets of Wc3, when night elves were dangerous and unpredictable and had power. Now they are nearly extinct, what if blizzard decides they'll build these guys up to be quite the formidable ones the fans loved. The alliance certainly needs bright stars in its belt to draw people back to it. Of all their races, the one with the most unused potential sitting in already established lore, are the night elves. The alliance simply needs to be popular again, and it has assets created from a long time ago that can and should be used. They only need look at these forums and see the demand for night elf development (both arcane and Wc3 nature), void elf development and high elf development - do you know how powerful and useful that is in attracting more people and making the alliance more appealing? Despite my objections they don't need to take anything from the horde, they just need to build the alliance elves up to the best they their lore envisions and take them further, and make the other alliance races also attractive. And they'll get there so fast.

    What if the night warrior is just the start? There is o much about Elune their star and moon arcane connection that is still a mystery to be revealed. yes and that whole arcane side is still a mystery to most, because the Nightborne went horde, so many players still don't quite connect high magic with the night elves. There is still that to show.

    There is also the power of the emerald dream that Malfurion discovers to harness in the novel Stormrage. And the font of Elune, if they could come up with the Night warrior, you can bet there are a few things they can come up with.

    And there is the demon hunters, ever since they started developing them again in 7.0 they have a much stronger night elven feel to them. Whiles w know the DKs feel leans more horde because of the Forsaken, the demon hunters lean more alliance because of the night elves, and we haven't seen them put into play regarding the night elves at least.

    Don't be cocky. you don 't know everything, and you can be certain blizzard knows teh alliance needs building up. especially none humans.. whose the most desired and longed after for improvement race that isn't human? Night elves.
    Last edited by ravenmoon; 2021-06-04 at 06:17 PM.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    They're considered Alliance, therefore no, they didn't regain anything. If they do, it will be a grudging couple of sentences in a shitty novel, never to be reflected in game.
    This.

    Ih and perhaps some bland uninteresting yet nonetheless chatty characters... or cinematics.

    Nothing you can really experience in the game though.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Wha..? Where do you get this nonsense from? You and Tanaria can sometimes behave so smug - you seem convinced you know exactly how blizzard will behave in all things especially when it comes to keeping the things you like on the horde.

    Ever occurred to you that blizzard might not feel the same way? That they had plans for the night elves to actually properly improve and be the dual arcane and nature elven group they were originally laid out? What makes you think blizzard would give up on their most unique and wonder filled elven group to only shoe on them into your typical forest elf - you guys and Rhlor just love the night elves to be exclusively nature and primitive, and are all too happy to have their arcane side when it is packaged in a fancy city with powerful casters. So you can feel good about yourself and that you chose the best side and your position isn't threatened.

    The problem is all the things you are trying so hard to keep way from the alliance, so desperate for the alliance not to have (judging by the posts from some of you) were already there in the first place. The Nightborne come from the night elven civilization who are still there on the alliance - The night elves still have Highborne and they still have the most skilled wonder workers of the empire (Shen'dralar) greatest academics and arcane theorists amongst the humanoid races (Nar'thalas Farondis Highborne) and the most skilled magical combatants (Moonguard) - you think just because they've shown the horde some of these things it somehow means the alliance will never get it? Why would you think that? The blood elves, all come from the High elves, not only are high elves still on the alliance, but void elves, great magical scholars have left the blood elves to advance their magic as void elves and are with the alliance considerably bolstering the Thalassian presence.. do you think that somehow this magic that is actually a part of these alliance races and these civilizations will somehow be horde exclusive? They never were, and they still aren't. Why would they now go that way?

    you are trying to force a state that doesn't exist. it sounds true, but it isn't true, and you hope that by saying it, everyone would accept it as logical and agree. leaving no one to argue against your "horde should have all the magic " agenda.

    Look I didn't write the lore this way, blizzard did. Blizzard wrote Night elves, made them this elven origin race, made them arcane based, tied hand in hand with nature, they made high elves too on the alliance, and gave them that lore, Did you see them get rid of the high elves when the blood elves came? Did you see them remove the Highborne when the Nightborne came or when they went horde? No, think.. why? Because those things are part of the alliance kit and set up, they come from there, a part of it is borrowed to the horde, and that doesn't somehow automatically mean the alliance versions won't get development. That is just wishful thinking.

    Just because you see the assets in game on your side, doesn't mean the alliance won't get its development. All it means is that you can enjoy a version of these things on the horde (so you won't feel compelled to roll alliance to experience them even if the alliance gets better versions). The true identity and the value of the horde is not in the blood elves nor the Nightborne, these are all borrowed from the alliance who has the original versions of these races and full access to all their accomplishments, it is more likely horde development direction would shift in greater measure to the orcs, goblins, Trolls in particular, and new races that don't borrow from the alliance. Look at how successful both the Zandalari and Vulpera are, the horde no longer really needs the blood elves to sustain them by being the only visible version of high elven society, and they certainly don't need the kaldorei civilization too. they got a magnificent troll one, and Silvermoon too, most likely Suramar. So while they may have these, there is no reason for the alliance elves not to get theirs done properly as these elven things are primarily alliance anyway.

    It's very off putting. What if blizzard has more for the alliance, and for the night elves? Everyone knows they are one of the most wasted races in the game, hugely ignored despite all that early groundwork.. 3 books on the war of the ancients, and all the fancy arcane stuff you love in the Nightborne and Zin'Azshari is their stuff, then there is all the facets of Wc3, when night elves were dangerous and unpredictable and had power. Now they are nearly extinct, what if blizzard decides they'll build these guys up to be quite the formidable ones the fans loved. The alliance certainly needs bright stars in its belt to draw people back to it. Of all their races, the one with the most unused potential sitting in already established lore, are the night elves. The alliance simply needs to be popular again, and it has assets created from a long time ago that can and should be used. They only need look at these forums and see the demand for night elf development (both arcane and Wc3 nature), void elf development and high elf development - do you know how powerful and useful that is in attracting more people and making the alliance more appealing? Despite my objections they don't need to take anything from the horde, they just need to build the alliance elves up to the best they their lore envisions and take them further, and make the other alliance races also attractive. And they'll get there so fast.

    What if the night warrior is just the start? There is o much about Elune their star and moon arcane connection that is still a mystery to be revealed. yes and that whole arcane side is still a mystery to most, because the Nightborne went horde, so many players still don't quite connect high magic with the night elves. There is still that to show.

    There is also the power of the emerald dream that Malfurion discovers to harness in the novel Stormrage. And the font of Elune, if they could come up with the Night warrior, you can bet there are a few things they can come up with.

    And there is the demon hunters, ever since they started developing them again in 7.0 they have a much stronger night elven feel to them. Whiles w know the DKs feel leans more horde because of the Forsaken, the demon hunters lean more alliance because of the night elves, and we haven't seen them put into play regarding the night elves at least.

    Don't be cocky. you don 't know everything, and you can be certain blizzard knows teh alliance needs building up. especially none humans.. whose the most desired and longed after for improvement race that isn't human? Night elves.
    The cringe fan love just ko'd me.

    Get real dude, they are far more likely to consign this to one line sentences never to see the light of day.

    What if the Night warrior is the end?

    Your optimism is at 9,000 -srsly! Have you not been following Warcraft lately? races are just tools to further story development of a handful of famous characters, and you're the adventurer that gets involved in these cosmic affairs to stop them. You don't need your race for that, and your class only exists for gameplay, it's hardly ever relevant in the lore these days.

    Why go back to crummy night elves, when you are spinning out highfaluting shpeel like first ones and eternals and the powers of creation It's much easier to tell as tory of individuals than a race... and THEY DON'T CARE.

    They even admitted they don't know if anything can be done about alliance population issues, and are just not motivated enough to give you the day dream rise of the night elves and alliance you wish. it's a near 20 year old game, not 2, it's packing up time and time to milk the current playerbase for all they have while putting in minimal effort, sloppy work and just a few enough shinnies for them to keep coming back.

    They've been in a pseudo maintenance mode and will soon shift to full maintenance... Blizzard are not writing a grand vision for a virtual world that would transition to VR and beyond and spawn a global franchise across several entertainment media. it's not their ambition. They look at profit margin, and only care if it's enough, they're not thinking about doing "great" things, the great thing for them is more $$$ ... and you are just pawns to entice you out of your money.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    The cringe fan love just ko'd me.

    Get real dude, they are far more likely to consign this to one line sentences never to see the light of day.

    What if the Night warrior is the end?

    Your optimism is at 9,000 -srsly! Have you not been following Warcraft lately? races are just tools to further story development of a handful of famous characters, and you're the adventurer that gets involved in these cosmic affairs to stop them. You don't need your race for that, and your class only exists for gameplay, it's hardly ever relevant in the lore these days.

    Why go back to crummy night elves, when you are spinning out highfaluting shpeel like first ones and eternals and the powers of creation It's much easier to tell as tory of individuals than a race... and THEY DON'T CARE.

    They even admitted they don't know if anything can be done about alliance population issues, and are just not motivated enough to give you the day dream rise of the night elves and alliance you wish. it's a near 20 year old game, not 2, it's packing up time and time to milk the current playerbase for all they have while putting in minimal effort, sloppy work and just a few enough shinnies for them to keep coming back.

    They've been in a pseudo maintenance mode and will soon shift to full maintenance... Blizzard are not writing a grand vision for a virtual world that would transition to VR and beyond and spawn a global franchise across several entertainment media. it's not their ambition. They look at profit margin, and only care if it's enough, they're not thinking about doing "great" things, the great thing for them is more $$$ ... and you are just pawns to entice you out of your money.
    I think I'll bet on blizzard fully supporting their biggest cashcow as long as it keeps making money.

    I'll bet on them doing better and bigger things to attract fans old and new to the game.

    And interest in races and their development is one of hte biggest things for fans. And of those races, interest in the night elves is prob number 1 atm, givenn how badly they've been treated and how many people are remembering when they felt awesome.

    Blizzard has all the material in the night elf lore for them to be awesome, that's what people want again.

    and i don't think they have given up on the alliance, alliance characters and toons from 8.1 onwards have no longer felt like second fiddle to the horde's tune. Even though BFA was horde centric, the alliance was shown very well in 8.1 Darkshore and Battle for Xazar'alor, not to mention Legion was 100% alliance focused save for Highmountain. Yes Nightborne were part of the night elf (also alliance bracket) until they were given to the horde, so most of legion they were alliance centric. The version of Nightborne currently playable are a very alliance centric race on the horde.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    Just because you see the assets in game on your side, doesn't mean the alliance won't get its development. All it means is that you can enjoy a version of these things on the horde (so you won't feel compelled to roll alliance to experience them even if the alliance gets better versions). The true identity and the value of the horde is not in the blood elves nor the Nightborne, these are all borrowed from the alliance who has the original versions of these races and full access to all their accomplishments, it is more likely horde development direction would shift in greater measure to the orcs, goblins, Trolls in particular, and new races that don't borrow from the alliance. Look at how successful both the Zandalari and Vulpera are, the horde no longer really needs the blood elves to sustain them by being the only visible version of high elven society, and they certainly don't need the kaldorei civilization too. they got a magnificent troll one, and Silvermoon too, most likely Suramar. So while they may have these, there is no reason for the alliance elves not to get theirs done properly as these elven things are primarily alliance anyway.

    It's very off putting. What if blizzard has more for the alliance, and for the night elves? Everyone knows they are one of the most wasted races in the game, hugely ignored despite all that early groundwork.. 3 books on the war of the ancients, and all the fancy arcane stuff you love in the Nightborne and Zin'Azshari is their stuff, then there is all the facets of Wc3, when night elves were dangerous and unpredictable and had power. Now they are nearly extinct, what if blizzard decides they'll build these guys up to be quite the formidable ones the fans loved. The alliance certainly needs bright stars in its belt to draw people back to it. Of all their races, the one with the most unused potential sitting in already established lore, are the night elves. The alliance simply needs to be popular again, and it has assets created from a long time ago that can and should be used. They only need look at these forums and see the demand for night elf development (both arcane and Wc3 nature), void elf development and high elf development - do you know how powerful and useful that is in attracting more people and making the alliance more appealing? Despite my objections they don't need to take anything from the horde, they just need to build the alliance elves up to the best they their lore envisions and take them further, and make the other alliance races also attractive. And they'll get there so fast.
    Night Elves and Void Elves have their arcs which are different from the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei.
    From BFA, we see Night Elves and Void Elves working together and they work together through totally different ways and means from their Horde counterparts.

    Blood Elves and Nightborne work on the Horde, because they are so alike. They are also deep-rooted Arcane-focused Elves. This is a clear distinction between the Horde and alliance Elves. Silvermoon, especially, doesn't work for the Alliance Elves because it's theme, vibe and core doesn't match them. It's a city full of Arcane and Holy Light users, which are two core themes of standard Blood Elf society, through their Magisters and Blood Knights. (High Elves aren't playable and will likely never be playable. Additional High Elf features for Void Elves are the best you can hope for.) You can try and say "oh nightborne live in a night based society." That doesn't make a different when the reality is that both their society and Silvermoon's are heavily steeped into Arcane knowledge, in many forms. Telemancy in Suramar, Blood and Fire Magical practices in Silvermoon is just one example.

    Night Elves and Void Elves have different priorities and different values, but it's those differences that can also pull them together. They have the potential to do some great things. Rebuild Eldre'Thalas, having it shared between Highborne and Ren'dorei. Highborne teach the Ren'dorei more about scrying magic and the Ren'dorei teach the Highborne more about the Void. Continue the cooperation between the two, like we saw in BFA between the Night Elf Sentinels and Void Elf Void-users.

    And attention won't shift, because the Horde Elves are not core races to the Horde lore anyway. Blizzard put them in where it makes sense (Zin-Azshari, Suramar, Northrend (Quel'Delar).) You'll notice throughout the whole thing of BFA and the internal conflict within the Horde, the Blood Elves and Nightborne only make their statements known - when it's close to Sylvanas leaving the Horde and in the one patch, where we see them in decent form, post-7.1. Aside from that, the BFA narrative on the Horde was a Troll, Orc and Undead focus. So stop with those lies with, "Oh the blood elves and nightborne are not the true identity of the Horde." That's rubbish and it's clear you know nothing of the Horde. Those who write the Horde storylines have a better understanding of when to use certain races. That's why using Blood Elves and Nightborne in 8.2 was the right call. Alliance writers only know what they're doing when it comes to Human storylines.

    Horde storylines for the Elves shouldn't suffer to buff the other side up. For one, Blood Elf fans are still waiting for an updated Quel'Thalas and rebuilt Silvermoon. This needs to happen regardless of what the other Elves have or don't have and it needs to be for the Horde. Also, two different teams write for both factions and the Horde writers won't get told, "look, in order for a few night elf fans to feel better, we need to make both blood elves and nightborne look really stupid, weak and after that...pretend they don't exist." Let's be serious for a moment. One doesn't need to be lesser than the other, for the one suffering to be good. Night Elves and Void Elves can be extremely good, especially when they work together, because them working together with all their differences are exactly the sorts of reasons they should be working together, in contrast to the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei, who work together because they are very alike in outlooks.
    So, lets stop getting excited about prospects of Blood Elves and Nightborne being pushed away and being made to pretend they don't exist. It won't happen. Blizzard loves the Blood Elves, especially them being on the Horde - they won't be forgotten...especially when it comes to the demand for updating Quel'Thalas and Silvermoon, for Horde players only.
    Last edited by Tanaria; 2021-06-04 at 09:36 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    A Highborne warden alignment to police magic would be an interesting development. There is a logic to it given how they've changed, and the experience of the kaldorei.

    But then they don't seem great enough to be policers of magic. The blue dragonflight did - but what do the shen'drlaar do? They just have a line about past accomplishments that like most things night elf, seem to speak to always read much bigger on paper than when they're shown in game.
    If the Highborne were to reintroduce a magic police into Night Elf society, the best example of this is the Moon Guard. The Moon Guard have been isolated entirely near Suramar, and mostly wiped out since Legion. The Moon Guard could teach others, like the Shen'dralar Highborne, as they've been trustworthy so far. The Moon Guard in the novels were a bit like police (my memory says they used handcuffs which were arcane, implied as either mage or priesthood magic). In WoW the Moon Guard doesn't seem to have any kind of tie to Elune, or any kind of Warden magic, but it's not like Maiev is going to trust Mordent and Co. enough to train them. If Wardens were going to be a group in the Night Elves, it would be just normal Wardens trained by Maiev and her Sisters of people she trusts. Maybe in a dire enough situation, Maiev could be persuaded by Jarod to extend or allow teaching to go out to more people (and other races, as would be like Jarod, likely to save Azeroth, as he does). But on her own, I don't think Maiev teaches the Shen'dralar Highborne. I think it's a bit more likely the Moon Guard would extend teachings to the Shen'dralar.
    Last edited by Razion; 2021-06-04 at 10:05 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    If the Highborne were to reintroduce a magic police into Night Elf society, the best example of this is the Moon Guard. The Moon Guard have been isolated entirely near Suramar, and mostly wiped out since Legion. The Moon Guard could teach others, like the Shen'dralar Highborne, as they've been trustworthy so far. The Moon Guard in the novels were a bit like police (my memory says they used handcuffs which were arcane, implied as either mage or priesthood magic). In WoW the Moon Guard doesn't seem to have any kind of tie to Elune, or any kind of Warden magic, but it's not like Maiev is going to trust Mordent and Co. enough to train them. If Wardens were going to be a group in the Night Elves, it would be just normal Wardens trained by Maiev and her Sisters of people she trusts. Maybe in a dire enough situation, Maiev could be persuaded by Jarod to extend or allow teaching to go out to more people. But on her own, I don't think Maiev teaches the Shen'dralar Highborne. I think it's a bit more likely the Moon Guard would extend teachings to the Shen'dralar.
    As much as the Moon Guard might be respected, I can't see the general populace on Kalimdor, accepting them as an " Arcane Magic Police Force." They've been absent from the main Night Elf society for over 10,000 years.
    We also are not clear on the standard view of arcane magic in the Darnassian society.

    Looking at it, broadly...I'd suspect that the general acceptance for any sort of force would likely be through the use of the Druids, when it comes to the Magi magical practices around Northern Kalimdor. If Eldre'Thalas was to be rebuilt as a large city for the Alliance Elves, then perhaps it's here where Highborne and Ren'dorei could expand their magical knowledge, learning from each other and tapping into the powers of the Arcane, Void or both.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    As much as the Moon Guard might be respected, I can't see the general populace on Kalimdor, accepting them as an " Arcane Magic Police Force." They've been absent from the main Night Elf society for over 10,000 years.
    We also are not clear on the standard view of arcane magic in the Darnassian society.

    Looking at it, broadly...I'd suspect that the general acceptance for any sort of force would likely be through the use of the Druids, when it comes to the Magi magical practices around Northern Kalimdor. If Eldre'Thalas was to be rebuilt as a large city for the Alliance Elves, then perhaps it's here where Highborne and Ren'dorei could expand their magical knowledge, learning from each other and tapping into the powers of the Arcane, Void or both.
    Night Elves were at one point the safeguards of nature and the natural order of Azeroth - having a duty on par with the dragons of old. The Dragons themselves admitted that the age of dragons was over, and that it is up to mortals once again to safeguard Azeroth. With Azerite now everywhere, magic needs to be kept in check to prevent disasters like what happened to Teldrassil. The Night Elves may believe they have the most to say on the subject being that their tree was the one that was destroyed. It'd be a little hard to argue against initially... but in practice it might result in some oppression - like preventing Orcs or Trolls from watering crops with conjured water. This could lead to conflict, pushing some hostilities around. It's worth keeping in mind though that Mordent's Shen'dralar have been pretty good since Cataclysm. Them suddenly turning evil would stink of corruption, perhaps influence or infiltration (like from a Dreadlord, which currently are kind of relevant - this also ties into Wardens and wanting to hunt down threats, and also ties into Demon Hunters and needing to give them something to do).

    The pushback I think would be inevitable eventually. But that's part of the point. If the point of introducing a magic police wasn't to beat it down eventually as a minor bad guy or corrupt force, I'm not sure what the point is otherwise. Like, what's the goal of a magic police besides using it for plot as potential antagonists? Would they just be police and doing CSI quest skits in random zones, dealing with Mana Wyrms eating on leylines? Showing up in little police outfits, saying, "Stop, in the name of Elune!" and then tackling a Treant into submission on a false report? I mean, it's charming as heck, but last time skits like that were done people kind of rebelled against the 'fun' -- Westfall, Uldum, etc. Nowadays we only see fun takes like this in Hearthstone.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    But the journal only refers to the flight from Dire Maul. There isn't much of the archives left in Dire Maul, at least not out in the open, because much of it was destroyed likely in our fight against them in Dire Maul west. That doesn't mean they aren't back there.

    if hey aren't, how do you explain the DK quest in legion that takes you back there? How do you explain our successful completion of Estulan's quest in cataclysm ? It is also telling we haven't seen Estulan and a large portion of the Shen'dralar since, could it be they've been working there all along?

    And illogic? The Shen'dralar are a tool. They were the means to give the night elves playable mages, and return the arcane wielding side of their past to their current destiny. With the nightborne away from the kaldorei, they are are the means to continue the night elves' development of their arcane legacy and likely unite their societies' various walks of life to recover from the blow of the war of thorns.

    if the devs mean to improve the Night elves, you can be sure the Shen'dralar would play a role. Unless they do the unthinkable and involve the nightborne. Since the Nightbonre have gone horde, that leaves the Shen'dralar again.

    i think there willbe more from them.

    Remember, the high elves also seemed an illogic bottom less pit, but they kept t hem around, they knew they would have a purpose for them later.
    The journal cannot cover a time period older than Legion because at the time Wrathion was either not born yet or working on his Alliance v. Horde/Iron Horde plan. He refers to the Shen'dralar departing in the past tense and as there being very little left after they'd left, presumably with the other books. As it's the most recent source of lore it's also the most canon one. Estulan's quests are both faction-agnostic and don't involve reclamation, as well as being dubiously canon considering that they involve killing NPCs that are already canonically dead at this point, given that the whole reason the Shen'dralar can join the Night Elves in the first place is down to what happens in Dire Maul in Vanilla, and here he is telling you to do these events in Cataclysm. The very notion of 'a large portion of the Shen'dralar' is misleading because the Shen'dralar in Dire Maul were already a small group by virtue of their Prince culling most of them, to the point where he was unable to hold all but one part of one wing of the city, and the Shen'dralar are themselves a small sect of the survivors of that culling.

    The reason the Shen'dralar are a pit of illogic is a multitude. Notwithstanding that the addition of mages to the Night Elves is itself a mistake that waters down their identity and by proxy the identity of all other elves who're defined by its absence, the way it is done is the problem. The problem is two-fold:

    1. The Shen'dralar as they are should not exist under the lore of fel corruption applied to every other race in the setting. Every other elven group, even ones who do have a bit of the Well of the Eternity with them like the high elves and later Nightborne are extremely easily affected by fel corruption, even in small doses. The ambience of just indirectly using fel to rebuild Silvermoon changed the blood elves' eye green and lastingly so. Not even fel blood was needed to turn Nightborne into Felborne. Other, less magically susceptible races like the orcs have had their entire habitat made fallow by fel use in a few years. The Shen'dralar sustain their entire city for thousands of years off of the back of draining a demon and yet none of them change in any way or are affected. This one demon is enough to sustain a magical addiction that all other elven subgroups needed bits of the Well of Eternity to keep going and only fails due to overuse, whereupon they kill the population that was happily doing this for said thousands of years so a small minority could survive, which leads into point 2.

    2. The Shen'dralar being accepted by the Night Elves makes no sense premised upon the Cataclysm being a big deal that would lead to a major change because the Legion invasion and even the fucking satyr wars and war of the Shifting Sands were much bigger deals that didn't lead to such sweeping changes. But that aside, it also makes no sense because of the aforementioned point - the Dire Maul Highborne spent thousands of years draining on a demon, an explicitly destructive force to sustain a decadent society. Their solution to this problem that they were at least passive participants in was to cull their population - the only reason they even flee Dire Maul is because the Horde raids their shit. They are a walking example of exactly the thing that the arcane ban was meant to avoid. Out of all groups to forgive, they rate well below the high elves and should if anything be an abject lesson of why the abstaining from arcane was a right call - the claim is that it leads to demon worship and decadence by those who'd do anything to sustain it and lo and behold, that was exactly the result.

    Not only should the Shen'dralar thus not exist as non-fel corrupted in their majority, given snacking on corruptive magic for thousands of years be it under Vanilla-era or current lore but even if we set their lorelol status aside, their track record makes them case positive for exactly what the night elves tried to avoid. Their acceptance is nonsense and the only thing that tortured series of events lead to is a watering down of the playable night elves to add an alien theme at the expense of an exclusionary nature that was part of their characterization and the undermining of other races who's schism with the night elves is chiefly on the point of the arcane, be it high elves or blood elves. Their sole character, Mordent, is a vacant cipher with no personality and paladins as a representation for melee priestesses of the moon would have been a more logical choice in Cataclysm. It is much too late now of course which is why the current route taken - i.e ignoring them as much as possible and ignoring aspects of lore where other, more worthwhile characters like Maiev were sacrificed on their altar, is the least damaging approach.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-04 at 11:54 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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