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  1. #21
    Mechagnome
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    Considering we're all of 2 years out of the '2010' decade; I really don't think there was anything different about THEN vs. NOW as to why we didn't have a huge sci-fi hit. One wasn't written and supported well enough - for the myriad of reasons that exists as to 'why not?'

    But it wasn't some cultural anti-sci-fi thing. No grand societal movement for or against. You gotta have a few more years away from a decade (like another decade or two lol) for one to really start to look at big picture stuff like that. We're 2 years out from the decade - tv shows haven't changed that much, in either direction.

    Society didn't give up on science, or space 'dreams'. You just have stupid idiots as tv execs and the right scripts not getting to the right backing. That doesn't change, no matter the decade. Fantasy being popular doesn't exclude scifi from being popular, or visa versa. You can have all those tv shows you mentioned together - and none of them - and it doesn't mean anything as far as whether a 'scifi show will hit it big' (i.e. "mainstream").

    And one example of 'what could have been popular scifi' of the top of my head - Almost Human. Awesome show. Weekly SCIFI 'cop procedural'. Fox screwed the pooch again and tanked its own show. Nothing to do with curtural norms or the "rise of magic and fantasy" in tv land. Just the idiots that are tv execs.
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  2. #22
    My spidey sense is all the manga that is getting cranked out and praised like mad is going to eventually birth the next generation of sci-fi TV and films.

    I have to admit, I was a HUGE fan of American anthology comics like "Weird Tales" and "Strange Tales" growing up. My uncle had a massive collection and I just happened to stumble into them and got lost in their pages. A lot of the manga plots remind me of those books. Something like Death Note seems like an episode of the Twilight Zone turned into a series.

    Its still very fringe and feels like it could explode in the next 10 to 15 years.
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  3. #23
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    My spidey sense is all the manga that is getting cranked out and praised like mad is going to eventually birth the next generation of sci-fi TV and films.
    Strange that in 1978, Gundam exploded in Japan and became the Star Wars of Japan, popularizing the military mecha genre with tons of immitators. And yet, the West never tried to do a military mecha show of their own. In fact, I think the one and only mecha thing to come out of the West is Pacific Rim, which was super sentai/super robot genre, not military mecha like Gundam.

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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its still very fringe and feels like it could explode in the next 10 to 15 years.
    That just made me think of Fringe, I really enjoyed that show, and while not space sci fi, was a good sci fi show.

    I think Space Sci-fi has struggled because it is hard to set a foundation for the setting that people will take. Too far in the future and you have to constantly churn our new societies/technologies/struggles that while being futuristic have to be relatable.

    More modern space Sci-fi and you have to make a good selling point or you are basically pumping more funds into special effects for a show that could easily be set in the modern earth for less money. This is one of the things the expanse did well is that it created a believable setting that most people could see the future taking, that is a moon base into Mars colonization with smaller bases throughout the system to collect resources (the belt). Added together with some solid cast choices (Amos and Avasarala carry the show for me, though Miller, Ashford and Drummer are also amazing) and some solid political intrigue and the show has done well, I'd say at the cusp of mainstream.

    Star Trek had the philosophy of a civilization that had moved past the more basic impulses/needs into deeper questions, while Star Wars is basically fantasy fused with space sci-fi to create this dynamic diverse universe with swords and blasters, science and magic(force).

    At the same time while these two shows worked, many others fail to thread the line carefully and end up failing for me Altered Carbon did this. The first season had a fun story, an amazing actor, dashed with science and mystery to keep you hooked. Season two however was a miss cast (I like Mackie, but I don't think he was a good season 2 Kovac) which with a rotating "main character" has to hit the mark (like I said Kinnaman was utterly amazing for me along). With a not as intriguing story, mixed with the tacked on introduction of aliens and alien technology made me a lot less invested in it.

    I think the concepts are there for a mainstream space sci-fi and think quite a few shows have had the potential (Altered Carbon I think could have gone far) it just comes down to the right director/cast finding the right formula and being given the chance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Strange that in 1978, Gundam exploded in Japan and became the Star Wars of Japan, popularizing the military mecha genre with tons of immitators. And yet, the West never tried to do a military mecha show of their own. In fact, I think the one and only mecha thing to come out of the West is Pacific Rim, which was super sentai/super robot genre, not military mecha like Gundam.
    Funny enough this made me think of the mechwarrior/battletech books. If done right a show based on them could be sooooooo good and fun to watch, you can start it at several points though I think starting it with just before the clan invasion would be the smartest choice. There is so much potential with all the characters, you could have whole spin off series based on several of them though I think you start with Victor Steiner-Davion. The great part is you can easily have episodes without him because of the diverse casts in those books, you could have an episode about Kai Allard-Liao, Phelan Kell, Katherina, and many more.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2021-06-09 at 04:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  5. #25
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    Funny enough this made me think of the mechwarrior/battletech books.
    Man, the Battletech IP has been through the ringer. They had to dump Shoji Kawamori's amazing designs for the mechs, but back then the lore was still good. Mechs were rare and were the priceless family heirlooms of powerful feudal houses. Juxtaposition of awesome building sized mechs strolling across low tech farming worlds (pic 1, pic 2, pic 3, is not Battletech art but there is no BTech art that gets across the feel of the setting like this). The early Clan invasion arc was cool. Felt like the Gaul invasion of Rome. Civilized knights vs space vikings barbarians.

    But then the clans eventually suffered from Borg syndrome where the clans were popular, so the corporation kept milking the clans when it wasn't necessary to do so, and the clans eventually started feeling dull. It eventually got really stupid when Battletech tried to keep the clans around and make them protagonists, which was stupid because it meant that they had to try to rationalize clan society as making sense (it doesn't. They weren't supposed to be anything more than comic book villains), and it just made it even dumber. And then Dark Age happened and everything that made the setting special was removed. There wasn't really an emphasis on the fights between nobility anymore; warfare became more generic combined arms total wars between states, with mechwarriors not being glorious individualized warriors but just another cog in the statist machine. Mechs became a dime a dozen and weren't special anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    The great part is you can easily have episodes without him because of the diverse casts in those books, you could have an episode about Kai Allard-Liao, Phelan Kell, Katherina, and many more.
    Personally I think the FedSuns are overrated. SPACE TEXANS ALL THE WAY! Give me a Wolverine and I will go "YEE-HAW!"


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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Man, the Battletech IP has been through the ringer. They had to dump Shoji Kawamori's amazing designs for the mechs, but back then the lore was still good. Mechs were rare and were the priceless family heirlooms of powerful feudal houses. Juxtaposition of awesome building sized mechs strolling across low tech farming worlds (pic 1, pic 2, pic 3, is not Battletech art but there is no BTech art that gets across the feel of the setting like this). The early Clan invasion arc was cool. Felt like the Gaul invasion of Rome. Civilized knights vs space vikings barbarians.
    Man it has been like a year since I last played scythe. Like I said I think you start with the invasion of the clans because I agree it would be so much fun, chaos and action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    But then the clans eventually suffered from Borg syndrome where the clans were popular, so the corporation kept milking the clans when it wasn't necessary to do so, and the clans eventually started feeling dull. It eventually got really stupid when Battletech tried to keep the clans around and make them protagonists, which was stupid because it meant that they had to try to rationalize clan society as making sense (it doesn't. They weren't supposed to be anything more than comic book villains), and it just made it even dumber. And then Dark Age happened and everything that made the setting special was removed. There wasn't really an emphasis on the fights between nobility anymore; warfare became more generic combined arms total wars between states, with mechwarriors not being glorious individualized warriors but just another cog in the statist machine. Mechs became a dime a dozen and weren't special anymore.
    Agree, which is why I would want clan invasion time period to start. There are enough fun side stories you could make the clan invasion, the invasion to the clan homeworld and the armistice last you quite a few seasons. Mean while if it did do well, we might hopefully get more mechwarrior games, some of them were really good (I loved 4/mercenaries, also the mech commander games were fun as a kid).

    Agree that the fed suns weren't the most interesting, I always liked Phelan Kell the most, though Kai Allard-Laio was a close 2nd. Though for meches, I always hold the Dashi close to heart just because I loved to use that mech.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2021-06-09 at 04:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    That's kind of stupid thinking, considering we didn't need to believe in Magic and Dragons for GoT to be Popular.
    At some level in order for most people to be entertained by GoT and its ilk you have to be willing to suspend disbelief, at least while the show is on. With the realization that space travel is unlikely to ever happen in the foreseeable future that has become difficult in the extreme. YMMV.

  8. #28
    I think the issue with sci fi has long been that it doesn't work in the GoT style format as well as some other genres do for w/e reason because we've seen **** loads of sci fi movies over the last 20 or so years which have had varying amounts of box office success. It's just that in terms of tv shows they don't seem to work as well though I know people love the Expanse but that seems like the lone exception which while loved by some isn't hugely popular.

  9. #29
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    The problem is they're almost all the same...they're typically dark, dystopian, and are about conflict or war. I really enjoyed Defiance and Killjoys but they honestly both fit that mold.

    Star Trek used to be different but now it's just like everything else, but poorly written.

    You just don't see much if any science fiction on tv that has positive notes...probably a good reason why it doesn't take off, a lot of it feels so similar.
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  10. #30
    Mechagnome sunxsera's Avatar
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    Hmm. For TV it`s allways hard to show sci-fi or high fantasy. It`s just too hard to film / cost-extensive.
    That´s why i mostly read books. There is allways a good book / author waiting.

  11. #31
    I usually find the stakes in most good scifi shows stay grounded. You know like the ship might be destroyed but works it's way out, people get sick and they find a cure, a few people work out thier differences when mistakes happen.

    Where they often lose me is in "all of time and space ends if we don't thread the needle on the one" story lines. Not to say a couple of these don't land from time to time but all to often it's the fate of the whole galactic civilization or the universe itself is at risk if our bold gang of problem solvers don't get it done. Why? Why make the problems so big all of the time. After a couple seasons you got people that saved the whole galaxy/universe still having loyalty questioned and methods picked apart until the next universal ender comes along of course. Scifi needs to realize that it's ok to have a problem that doesn't cause the end of all things be what you need to solve constantly.

  12. #32
    I doubt it unfortunately. Sci fi is unfortunately pretty niche, just think of all the big budget sci fi movies that flopped back in the 2010s (Valerian, Mortal Engines, Jupiter Ascending, etc). For what it's worth I thought they were all entertaining and pretty well done in the end, but other people and critics found them apparently in-cohesive, trying to jam too much exposition in, etc. But they were all trying to build a platform to launch off into a series, and none of them stuck unfortunately. Unless you're Star Trek, Star Wars, or Dr. Who (which I never liked), sci fi just doesn't stick that well for most people. Perhaps the numerous bad crap they put up on the old sci-fi (or SyFi or whatever the hell they call themselves now) channel turned off people, who knows. Or that one for Fox that flopped about time travel, Terra or whatever it was called.

  13. #33
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Strange that in 1978, Gundam exploded in Japan and became the Star Wars of Japan, popularizing the military mecha genre with tons of immitators. And yet, the West never tried to do a military mecha show of their own. In fact, I think the one and only mecha thing to come out of the West is Pacific Rim, which was super sentai/super robot genre, not military mecha like Gundam.
    I think we got Power rangers and Transformers from American/Japanese collaboration. Transformers is American written, but based off Japan's Takara toy company toys. And Power rangers is adopted from Japanese "Sentai" footage, but the story/characters are quite different.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I think we got Power rangers and Transformers from American/Japanese collaboration. Transformers is American written, but based off Japan's Takara toy company toys. And Power rangers is adopted from Japanese "Sentai" footage, but the story/characters are quite different.
    It's too bad they never tried a more proper Starship Troopers theme or motiff, it basically introduced power armor to sci fi and everyone these days just probably think of the "ok" 90s film or the bad direct to video sequels.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by CmdrShep2154 View Post
    It seemed like space adventure outside of "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" had a really hard time in the 2010s. The Expanse had to fight for it's life. J Michael Straczynski was working on an adaption of Kim Stanley Robinson's "Mars Trilogy" but the studio he was working with was shuttered.

    https://twitter.com/straczynski/stat...12320427220993



    I would love to see an adaption of Iain M. Banks Culture series


    but that went belly up as well.
    https://www.tor.com/2020/08/24/amazo...omment-page-1/

    Could a space sci fi show have become mainstream in the 2010s if it was of Game of Thrones or even "The Walking Dead" quality and on a mainstream network or would superheroes, zombies, and Game of Thrones be too strong for it to become successful? Has society in the 2010s stopped dreaming of a better future? Did space lose it's sense of wonder?

    Could a space adventure be exciting without aliens and laser guns?
    Not sure if a young audience would be into regular human drama, but set in space. It would have to have some violence or sex. See shows like Bridgerton that are victorian dramas, but still popular.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    The problem is they're almost all the same...they're typically dark, dystopian, and are about conflict or war.
    Check out "Vagrant Queen". It's quite flashy with lots of colorful characters. Forced at times, low budget, canceled after one season. But I rather enjoyed it.

  17. #37
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CmdrShep2154 View Post
    Could a space adventure be exciting without aliens and laser guns?
    Of course it could. More important than the setting and tools being used is the story (thus writing and directing) and actors who take the story serious.

    The first big hit in fantasy was Lord of the Rings which worked because of the good budget, well written screen play, excellent acting, good direction and editing. There were many tries before, but they didn't do well because they were, almost always, cheesy and cheap.

    Same was true of most superhero movies until Blade and Spider-Man.

    Star Trek worked because it had compelling stories and characters. Much of the dialogue was cheesy, but the characters were relatable and interesting. Star Wars was much of the same.

    Other science fiction can work, but it takes a lot of money and talent for it to work well. Studios don't like to do new works very often because it's easier to just use the well proven Star Wars and Star Trek licenses. Star Trek Discovery is not really Star Trek, but since it leverage the Star Trek universe, it had a built in audience which made it a financial success for the studio.

    And never, never forget that the financials will *always* be the studios primary concern. Less risk of financial failure using established properties.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by xezar View Post
    It's too bad they never tried a more proper Starship Troopers theme or motiff, it basically introduced power armor to sci fi and everyone these days just probably think of the "ok" 90s film or the bad direct to video sequels.
    Well there's that Forever War movie thats been in development for a dozen years already... do want to see its implementation of power armor and relativistic travel implemented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Not sure if a young audience would be into regular human drama, but set in space. It would have to have some violence or sex. See shows like Bridgerton that are victorian dramas, but still popular.
    From what I recall of the Mars Trilogy, it wasn't that shy of violence and sex, with many love triangles and other complex geometric figures, a number resulting in tragedy and blood.

    Add-in the neo-minoan cultists reprising female minoan fashion on an everyday basis and you're set...
    Last edited by Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang; 2021-06-21 at 09:45 AM.
    "Learn to overcome the crass demands of flesh and bone, for they warp the matrix through which we perceive the world. Extend your awareness outwards, beyond the self of body, to embrace the self of group and the self of humanity. The goals of the group and the greater race are transcendent, and to embrace them is to achieve enlightenment."

    ~ Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang on Essays on Mind and Matter

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JDL49 View Post
    In the 70's and 80's because of the space race there was belief that some day we would reach space at a commercial level. As time marched on that has proven a non starter. At present it's not worth the cost and I haven't seen anything even hinting that will improve in the next century. No faith, no hope, no joy, no interest. Comic Book Movies are as close as you're going to get with a few exceptions.
    Reusable rockets would like to have a word.

    Anyway, I wonder at what point would space sci-fi that's already out start becoming silly? (spare me the edgy answer of it being already silly please)

    Like, in the far future you watch stuff like Star Trek and Star Wars, to someone growing up on another planet for example, someone who's young and doesn't really know the history of humanity comes across these movies and thinks to themselves, "damn, this is some really old technology they used for sets for these movies".

    Sci-fi movies won't even by sci-fi movies anymore.

  20. #40
    Wasn't Garibaldi's second favourite thing in the universe watching old Buck Rogers cartoons? Laughed his ass off at them.

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