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  1. #81
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    No not really.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Tell me, when did the game have over 12 million subscribers? Was it in with the expansion that brought Mythic+ or was it Wrath?
    It was the expansion where I could buy tier pieces from a vendor with currency I got in a dungeon...
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #82
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    That's a really "bizarre" thing to want.

    I'd say they are only doing it to not lose their raid spot aka the source of gear.

    low attendance can lead to guild kick.

    Or at least that's my thought process.

    I have Cutting edge for several raids, Pre-BFA but not because i want them.. but because the raids are the source for gear and it's a hazzle to find a new guild if you refuse to do Mythic progression
    I think it was forgotten that WoW is still a video game, and in it's core you beat the game for the satisfaction of it and to put your name in High Score for bragging rights (similar to speed runners just going for better and better times in other games). Nothing really tangible. Sure, the gear is there as one of the rewards, but it's just a means to an end. What other explanation for all those players participating in CE chase, especially if it's an end boss? Nothing really bizzare about it.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  3. #83
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    It was the expansion where I could buy tier pieces from a vendor with currency I got in a dungeon...
    I do miss that..
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  4. #84
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I do miss that..
    I even forgot how itemization worked in all expansions pre-Legion. Damn I play this game for so long.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  5. #85
    i think a currency system to earn decent catchup gear is fine. it wasn't an issue in wrath (and that was when blizz started devaluing epics). otherwise, i completely agree. world quests, dailies, reps, and more. all these things have been seen as required grinds for years. wrath had the shoulder enchantments, cata had bis pre-raid gear, pandaland had a horrible time since every rep gave a good epic piece, wod was the one exception because you had to farm apexis crystals and the gear wasn't very good, legion had rep gear, and bfa had rep gear as well. every single time loot is put into a place where it isn't earned by skill, it just causes issues.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I think gear should come..

    ..40% from crafting,
    ..35% from treasures/hoards,
    ..15% from quests,
    ..10% from drops,

    you know, like in an actual RPG.

    Edit: Currencies fall somewhere between the quest/crafting part. They are generally not a bad thing, ideally you can buy things from high level artisans, maybe vendors should be it's own category in my above example, though it's essentially just NPC crafting.
    40% crafting is a bit to much,this isnt an rpg its an mmo,you would force everyone to have gear crafting professions

    what do you mean by treasures/hoards?

    I do like the idea of challenging solo quests to get good gear

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    And the flood of complaints when the gear isn't perfectly itemized to every person's spec. We had 1-2 pieces per slot from a vendor usually.
    That's where reforging comes in. It was great for RPG, when i think about it.
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  8. #88
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I even forgot how itemization worked in all expansions pre-Legion. Damn I play this game for so long.
    I don't, of course I forget where items are from at times, but I've been through the whole line and enjoyed something from every expansion. The currency system was a fair little side thing, so even if you didn't get what you needed from dungeons/raids, you could still buy something you might need from the currency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's where reforging comes in. It was great for RPG, when i think about it.
    Another thing I do miss. It was a good management tool for gear.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's where reforging comes in. It was great for RPG, when i think about it.
    You know the playerbase. Things are either perfectly optimal or they are trash. There's not even a fine line between them. Look at the people making them hate the game by mindlessly grinding Maw of Souls runs or island expeditions ad nauseum for fractions of a percent improvement, or bashing their heads changing covenants every time a tuning happens.

    As an anecdote we had a ret paladin have a practical mental breakdown when he completed his leggo ring in WoD cause it had vers, his weakest stat on it. I pulled up his toon and simmed him to check, and all four stats were within 1.3% of each other.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  10. #90
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Yes.

    Mythic keys and such should give tokens that you can gather for reputation, then you can obtain some equipment, mounts, etc.

    But the main source should be bosses.

    Also, none should get legendaries as a default, they should be an extremely rare thing.

    Epics should be rare to obtain out of fights too.


    In short, we need wow to be like it once was. Right now, there´s no point to play retail when we have the better version of wow in Classic BC... Sure it is stuff we already did, but even so it is far more engaging.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    40% crafting is a bit to much,this isnt an rpg its an mmo,you would force everyone to have gear crafting professions

    what do you mean by treasures/hoards?

    I do like the idea of challenging solo quests to get good gear
    The idea is not that everyone takes up a crafting profession, instead the ones that do should just actively supply the market with items, which is reasonable, as 1 smith certainly makes more than just 1 sword. You also have the argument backwards, especially because this is an MMO player interactions should exist, just dropping it to personal loot is the most anti-mmo thing possible*. The alternative would be the items the NPC shops offer (see my edit), which I originally forgot to factor in and would mostly come out of the 40% pool tbh. My goal is that items that drops should be special, have a story to them and fit where they drop. This is all just stuff that used to be common in the genre, before Blizzard established that it's okay to be scared of your players actually interacting and turned the loot system into diablo rng loot pinata smashing.

    As for treasures and hoards. It makes sense if you clear a dungeon and there are treasure chests at the end, it makes no sense that a boar drops silk slippers and 3 meter long pole-axes. A dragon doesn't have 4 quarterstaves, 2 books and 5 sets of full plate armor stuck up its ass either, the treasure hoard it has amassed though might have these items. Essentially I just split "from combat activities" into "directly from NPC" and "from the NPCs enviroment".

    *let me make it clear, this is an idealized world/scenario I'm talking about here, wow and it's community are fundamentally flawed, so I personally would take personal loot over having to deal with this asshat community any day. The same could be said about crafting in general, at this point in the game crafting professions might as well not exist with the exception of alchemy.
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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I think it was forgotten that WoW is still a video game, and in it's core you beat the game for the satisfaction of it and to put your name in High Score for bragging rights (similar to speed runners just going for better and better times in other games). Nothing really tangible. Sure, the gear is there as one of the rewards, but it's just a means to an end. What other explanation for all those players participating in CE chase, especially if it's an end boss? Nothing really bizzare about it.
    Very very odd "mindset" you have.

    The only word for it is "bizzare" like i said.

    There is no prestige or bragging about killing a boss in a video game.

    Also there is no "satisfaction" in beating a difficult boss, It's more of a "Can we finally stop skipping 99% of the raid now just to focus on 1 boss" feeling.

    Difficult bosses is a "Chore" the entire raid is a means to an end to get gear, it's all very pointless and meaningless.

    Imo it would be better if they made the game with less difficulty so you can go in, pew pew, get the ilvl 233 stuff.

    and then make a sepperate mode with templates (Like WoD PvP) Where you get cutting edge & Mounts if you defeat the bosses.

    I get my loot, you get your "Progression" bosses.

    Win/win for every one
    Last edited by Nalam the Venom; 2021-06-06 at 11:05 AM.

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  13. #93
    Mechagnome Lady Atia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Gearing in SL was very good, better than in a long time.

    Then they added valor which made heroic raiding useless in the grand scheme of things, and I have barely played since. Instantly made the feel of gearing up being downgraded. I don't use it personally(I am buying the vendor stuff for the valor I get lol, upgraded staff for my mage once, that's it) Shame because I loved the new way. RNG is part of the game, so I only use the gear I get from the raid, m+(non upgraded) and weekly chest, and that's how it is going to be for me.

    Funny how one thing like that can make a game lose the whole immersion of character progression even though I don't participate in it.
    So you cripple your gear just because you don't like valor upgrades "because they are out of immersion?". Oh god, I would love it to have you on my raid team ...

  14. #94
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Very very odd "mindset" you have.

    The only word for it is "bizzare" like i said.

    There is no prestige or bragging about killing a boss in a video game.

    Also there is no "satisfaction" in beating a difficult boss, It's more of a "Can we finally stop skipping 99% of the raid now just to focus on 1 boss" feeling.

    Difficult bosses is a "Chore" the entire raid is a means to an end to get gear, it's all very pointless and meaningless.

    Imo it would be better if they made the game with less difficulty so you can go in, pew pew, get the ilvl 233 stuff.

    and then make a sepperate mode with templates (Like WoD PvP) Where you get cutting edge & Mounts if you defeat the bosses.

    I get my loot, you get your "Progression" bosses.

    Win/win for every one
    No satisfaction and odd mindset? What are you talking about? Watch ANY final boss Mythic kill and witness nerdgasms after they finally manage to kill him. EVERY. SINGLE. VID. I would say your mindset is odd and in minority, like you don't really want to do it but force yourself through the raid anyway. If you call it all chore and get zero satisfaction and fun from it, then you simply lost any joy from raiding challenging content. And that's fine. But others didn't.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-06-06 at 11:23 AM.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    No satisfaction and odd mindset? What are you talking about? Watch ANY final boss Mythic kill and witness nerdgasms after they finally manage to kill him. EVERY. SINGLE. VID. I would say your mindset is odd and in minority, like you don't really want to do it but force yourself through the raid anyway. If you call it all chore and get zero satisfaction and fun from it, then you simply lost any joy from raiding challenging content. And that's fine. But others didn't.
    Maby the world first people raid with "friendly" people tho?

    "Challange" most of the time just leads to anxiety, stress and fear of getting kicked as the GL & officers are breathing down your neck.

    I don't really understand how you get any fun or satisfaction out of such an environment

    So yes.. it is a "Force yourself to do it" thing and not something that can be enjoyable.

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  16. #96
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    Maby the world first people raid with "friendly" people tho?

    "Challange" most of the time just leads to anxiety, stress and fear of getting kicked as the GL & officers are breathing down your neck.

    I don't really understand how you get any fun or satisfaction out of such an environment

    So yes.. it is a "Force yourself to do it" thing and not something that can be enjoyable.
    Because I run raids with friends, always has been. I do feel annoyance from hitting roadblocks, just like everyone else but never really felt stress or anxiety, because I know it's just a game. You don't get fun from it and so you assume others don't. Claiming pushing Mythic is not fun for player base is just plain wrong. People wouldn't do it simply for gear when experiencing constant negativity like you claimed they do, and Mythic raiding (and even Heroic) would simply be dead.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Because I run raids with friends, always has been. I do feel annoyance from hitting roadblocks, just like everyone else but never really felt stress or anxiety, because I know it's just a game. You don't get fun from it and so you assume others don't. Claiming pushing Mythic is not fun for player base is just plain wrong. People wouldn't do it simply for gear when experiencing constant negativity like you claimed they do, and Mythic raiding (and even Heroic) would simply be dead.
    You are saying that there are groups that don't rule with an iron fist, kick you for the smallest of things and actually treat their members in a civil way?

    I find that fairly hard to believe

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  18. #98
    The Lightbringer Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalam the Venom View Post
    You are saying that there are groups that don't rule with an iron fist, kick you for the smallest of things and actually treat their members in a civil way?

    I find that fairly hard to believe
    I really don't know why it is so unbelievable for you. I'm so baffled. You really expect guilds would last and succeed with this kind of tyranny?
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I really don't know why it is so unbelievable for you. I'm so baffled. You really expect guilds would last and succeed with this kind of tyranny?
    I mean, if it's either putting up with it or not doing the raid at all?

    Then it seems pretty obvious to me at least that people would just be "put up with it" in favor of the goal.

    I'm just saying that i've never been in a friendly guild or group where i did not have a fear of "Losing my spot" due to the "Whim of the Leader" in WoW or any other game.

    So it is indeed quite "odd" to me that there are groups out there.. who enjoy playing together and are not just doing it out of necessity.

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  20. #100
    regardless of the negative and positive feedback in this thread, i think most responses are missing a very large point. this game is not the same and it never will be again. especially with the current game designers in place. they know how to maximize your time online. they know how to carrot with a string every player. this game is well past the point of being made for enjoyment. the decision was made to not care about that, and specifically generate more time spent logged in. gearing up or alts etc is surely effected, but they dont care. the proof is in the result of what they make and release.

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