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  1. #21
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    People have been getting immersed in stories by... gasp... reading for nearly six thousand years. Sounds like a you problem.
    There's a large difference between sitting down with a book to read, and sitting down at your computer to play video games, only to then have to read

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    huh?thats how the quests are delivered for most of players lvling experince,yeah in sl its better because you can chose the expansion to play,but until now for over a decade every new player had to slog threw all those text quests until atleast mop and wod where they finnaly started adding more voice overs
    They aren't discussing the text box itself but the Johnny Awesome character and his silly dialogue.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    There's a large difference between sitting down with a book to read, and sitting down at your computer to play video games, only to then have to read
    Yeah, definitely a "you" problem. I'm going to assume you're not part of the playerbase crying about them removing RPG elements and lore from the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    They aren't discussing the text box itself but the Johnny Awesome character and his silly dialogue.
    You mean the playful poking fun by Blizzard at their own playerbase? Blizzard has never taken the game very seriously. Even goddamned Naxxramas had Mr. Bigglesworth.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  4. #24
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Yeah, definitely a "you" problem. I'm going to assume you're not part of the playerbase crying about them removing RPG elements and lore from the game.
    I'm not, because I don't care about it. If I wanted to read, I'd sit down with a book, I play games to play games, not read. If the game wants me to care about the story, find a way to do it without interrupting gameplay. You know, like voice acting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrif View Post
    They aren't discussing the text box itself but the Johnny Awesome character and his silly dialogue.
    Definitely what this guy is talking about, yep:
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    For as long as story driven content is a window of text like this:



    I will never get immersed in the story of wow.

  5. #25
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Not every single patch needs a raid, not every single raid needs to be 14 bosses long.
    It does if you're Ian Hazzikostas and believe that dungeons/raids are the 'important' PVE content.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by VinceVega View Post
    if raids in wow would be not needed and shorter i would quit immediatly.

    If i would want what you say i go and play FF14... not wow
    Not what they are talking about. Our normal cycle is what a patch every 4-6 months? Basically what they are saying is adding a smaller patch in between adding world content. Currently our smaller patches are just bug fixes and rebalances.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrollHunter3000 View Post
    How the fuck is this trolling?

    Discussing moderation is against the rules. Infracted.

  7. #27
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    For as long as story driven content is a window of text like this:

    I will never get immersed in the story of wow.
    Oh come on ...that was actually fun. Total pisstake. You get to be a questgiver. IF THAT one example why you never got immersed in the story of WoW....especially since that one example of a quest is only there since Cata or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    There's a large difference between sitting down with a book to read, and sitting down at your computer to play video games, only to then have to read
    ...and people also tell me how much they enjoy the speeches that NPCs in other games give...until they play it a second time. And find out they can't skip it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post

    Theres a reason that a game like FFXIV keeps most of its players, and WoW doesnt, and its content cycle.
    As usual I would love to see the data or youtube video or article supporting this.

    On the other hand, the differences in the games may be because they were made to attract different kinds of players. Which if fine.

    That said...I would have no problem with small patches that don't have a raid.

    What I can guarantee you is the bitchfest that this forum will become. We already currently have massive threads where people demand gear to only drop from bosses.

  8. #28
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Given the WoW dev team's track record over the past 8 years (especially the abysmal last 3), I am forced to conclude that the WoW team would be incapable of replicating the FFXIV team's development cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It does if you're Ian Hazzikostas and believe that dungeons/raids are the 'important' PVE content.
    That is one of the reasons I was pushed away from WoW. It stopped being a game designed towards its customers and instead designed for a clique of hardcore raiders.

    . - - - - - Come play MMO-C mafia with us! / Steam / MyAnimeList - - - - -

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It does if you're Ian Hazzikostas and believe that dungeons/raids are the 'important' PVE content.
    Wasn't he the one who put forth the entire 6-month patch schedule initially anyway? That seems entirely contrary to that. I think at least goal-wise he would be aiming for the shorter raids, if anything. They see fall-off in dead time between patches, so having more frequent patches seems like a no-brainer on their end for why they would initially go for it -- but apparently it was harder to maintain, otherwise they would still be doing it.

    I don't think either that it necessarily always follows that shorter content is always of higher quality, either. Sure in Wrath there were a lot of hits with shorter raids, but there was also Ruby Sanctum which bombed absolutely terribly and even put a stigma on extra smaller content patches at the end of expansions. Asking purely for less content to be done more frequently seems like a doomed request because of how it turned out last time - not only at the end of Wrath, but also when they returned to that and tried to make it more consistent with the 6-month tier release schedule not working out. I don't see any reason to believe them if they said they would try to do this again.

    To put another point out, different players prefer different PvE content sizes. People even now ask for large dungeons like BRD - but not everyone has time for that. We have conflicting dungeon sizes in terms of normal dungeon sizes and longer ones that are cut up into chunks like Mechagon or Karazhan. On some level it seems easier for them to make larger content, because of how much they push Mega-Dungeons or larger raids like Ulduar or Throne of Thunder, for example. I think on some level it's to justify those larger projects (well, if I'm being cynical).

    If there were no raid size variety, it might get samey. Some variety is good. But if there's too much large-scale PvE for too long, it's too far in the other direction for too long. But, if smaller raids become the norm for too long, it may be seen as lazy, and also the expectation of how large patches are... I think that also gets in the way of things. Like, if players quickly consume a patch that is small, and they say patches arrive sooner -- like, even if they do, people might be disappointed unless the small patches go on long enough to change people's perception about how large patches are supposed to be. But people have been playing with larger patches for a long time - so it might take a long time to undo that kind of expectation. People may riot before general consensus of smaller patches shifts. And even on the onset of smaller patches, even the premise of it may make people feel like they're getting less out of their sub moment to moment, so it might spark outrage that way too.

  10. #30
    Small patches have always been shit. No more 2 boss raids kthxbye.

  11. #31
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I think at least goal-wise he would be aiming for the shorter raids, if anything.
    There are two top-level defining ideas about how WoW's developers think about and promote their game design. They're very simple.

    • Bigger/More = Better.
    • Bigger/More = Epic.

    When you hear any Blizz developer use the word 'epic'—and they use it all the time when they're promoting something—that's generally what they mean. It's big. It's loud. "Deathwing is epic" (no matter how dumb and out of scale the final DW fight was in Cataclysm).

    Note that they want to define what you think of as epic. It's too simplistic but I don't believe there's anyone at Irvine HQ that truly understands how less can sometimes be more.

    That translates to patches. They really believe in the idea of few but big patches. Big patches are more epic, you see.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2021-06-06 at 10:53 AM.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post

    I'm sure FFXIV has its struggles too, despite the rose-shimmer spread by some, but if you want FFXIV, go play FFXIV.

    If WoW was to improve, I'd want them to do so by taking lessons from the history of WoW, not the fantasies of fans of a wholly different title.
    Don't want to be a dick but that is exactly the attitude that turned the original FFXIV release into a disaster. They knew how to make an MMO, they did XI. So they didn't look at other games in the genre people were playing. The result nearly bankrupt the company.

    Literally one of the first things Yoshida asked the dev team to do was to play WoW. If you try to develop your game in a vacuum it will be a catastrophe.

    This is no longer like the early years of WoW when they could pretty much just develop the game by slapping their dicks on the keyboard cause they had no competition. They have now. And the competition has stuff that WoW doesn't.

    You know all the Necromancer fans here? They can go and play Necro in ESO and GW2. Want a Tinker? GW2 engineer and FFXIV Machinist has you covered.

    Guess what? Both Bellular and Taliesin both play Bard in FFXIV because that is a class fantasy WoW lacks.

    Maybe they don't leave completely but people totally go to other games to get stuff that WoW doesn't provide. You can say that this is just a healthy competitive MMO scene and I would agree, but saying that WoW needs to only loook inwards to improve is wrong.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    There are two top-level defining ideas about how WoW's developers think about and promote their game design. They're very simple.

    • Bigger/More = Better.
    • Bigger/More = Epic.

    When you hear any Blizz developer use the word 'epic'—and they use it all the time when they're promoting something—that's generally what they mean. It's big. It's loud. "Deathwing is epic" (no matter how dumb and out of scale the final DW fight was in Cataclysm).

    Note that they want to define what you think of as epic. It's too simplistic but I don't believe there's anyone at Irvine HQ that truly understands how less can sometimes be more.

    That translates to patches. They really believe in the idea of few but big patches. Big patches are more epic, you see.
    Epic is a buzz-word for sure.

    But I think we can draw a comparison to features they've made in the interest of engagement, of metrics, of retention.
    There's a pattern here in wanting to disregard the feel of it, the play of it, lately, to satisfy the investors, the shareholders.

    We've had the concept in the community for a long time, that there is push-back between these ideologies.
    When it comes to shorter raids, again, there's a reason they aren't doing it currently:
    They tried it before. They couldn't keep it up. There was pushback from old examples that were, frankly, hated, like Ruby Sanctum.
    When people get less content, they're slow to adjust. So when it was tried, people rebelled. They felt like they got less.

    Frankly, it may be less expensive for them to make smaller raids as I'm sure the prospect is juicy, to shift out more and to retain more users between months as well. Less total cost per patch. Patches go out more frequently, keep players more invested. It's an appealing concept.

    Again, they tried it before. Kind of back-fired. They say "epic," but they've tried to reduce the epic before. On a schedule. That they laid out for us. In a nice, predictable, 6-month period delivery, that could be regular, consistent, shorter, and sweeter. It didn't work out because the community didn't accept it. Would the community rebel again? That's what I'm arguing. That the path to adjusting the community would take too long. That they'd decry less content, short patch, not enough, all that and more before the change in the community perception of shorter patches came around to it actually being okay. Part of the consequence of having a critical community. The community is like this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    There's also patch fatigue to worry about. Even all the new players SL is allegedly bringing in can get burned out by being overstimulated with too frequent releases. Patches would have to be spaced out reasonably. But, again, this was tried before.

  14. #34
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    but saying that WoW needs to only loook inwards to improve is wrong.
    Says you.

    That's all they'd need to do for me to be able to enjoy THIS game again. Having them look at games I have zero interest in is irrelevant to me.

    Hence how I described it in SUBJECTIVE terms. So no, it's not wrong. Your opinion is a different one, probably based on enjoying other MMORPGs. Mine is that for this game to become good again, they need only return to philosophies and content/class designs of expansions past.

    Nothing more to it than that.
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainV View Post
    Theres a reason that a game like FFXIV keeps most of its players, and WoW doesnt, and its content cycle.
    Even if this was true (Im calling this point suspicious because we have no real way to prove it without real time analytics), the community in FF14 outside of Japan is way more casual and less upper-content driven than others. The game's director also has had open policy where he will say for people to take breaks if they do not find the current content fun. This ideal goes into the game design as well (Post-MSQ being short, lower amount of dungeon releases post launch, etc.) though house owners are BTFO'd and have to log in to retain their land.

    There is a cycle in XIV that launches just enough content a patch to keep people doing it without it being gated by the conventions of a weekly time gate grind.
    What is tomestone gear, Alex?

    Instead, that kinda content, like beast tribes is entirley listed as optional, filler to pass the time to keep you entertained but never to demand your time.
    Yea -- its not like the ShB Allied Beast tribes got cancelled and limited the optional content....oh wait.

    No main content has ever been mandatory in XIV, no raids have ever been heavily tedious.
    Yep --- dungeons and trials are completely optional. You never have to do any of these things for MSQ requirements. Ever. At all.

    World content is hit and miss,
    Mostly because FATE farming sucks, Levequests are useless now, and anything remotely worthwhile to the game is put into instanced content. I dont know why people hype up the open world in FF14 so much when most of the people I ever see in the game just hang out in the main city hubs and the open worlds are barren.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Oh come on ...that was actually fun. Total pisstake. You get to be a questgiver. IF THAT one example why you never got immersed in the story of WoW....especially since that one example of a quest is only there since Cata or so.
    Why the hell EVERYONE is pissing on me for picking that quest?

    That quest is incredibly funny and is why i picked the image...
    It has nothing to do with what i said...

    I just said...i cant get immersed in story when MAJOR plot points are in those "WINDOWS OF TEXT"

  17. #37
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Why the hell EVERYONE is pissing on me for picking that quest?
    Probably because you used it to illustrate something that has nothing to do with your point? Also..yeah..it is awesome.

    Or as you said "That quest is incredibly funny and is why i picked the image...
    It has nothing to do with what i said..."

    No wonder "everyone" is pissing on you for that

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Probably because you used it to illustrate something that has nothing to do with your point? Also..yeah..it is awesome.

    Or as you said "That quest is incredibly funny and is why i picked the image...
    It has nothing to do with what i said..."

    No wonder "everyone" is pissing on you for that
    For example in BFA im pretty sure A LOT of major plot points where in those quest windows...and i was completely lost all expansion.
    In Shadowlands is way better, and majority of major plot points are voice acted and i know a lot more (not completely lost like in BfA)

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    It does if you're Ian Hazzikostas and believe that dungeons/raids are the 'important' PVE content.
    The idea that this is somehow new blows my mind. The game is the same it as it has always been for at least a decade now. Everything of relevance is in instanced content.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    Definitely what this guy is talking about, yep:
    Roandas post is a big ambiguous in whether he meant the window of text itself or the silly character. If he really only meant the window of text then using Johnny Awesome as an example, while talking about not being immersed in the story, is practically the worst example possible, as literally any inane dialogue window would've put his point across way better.

    The guy responding to Roanda however, was 100% talking about Johnny and not the text box, which confused the person responding to him, and that's what I cleared up with my response.

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