Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Tyrande got her massacre of Horde soldiers in the Battle For Darkshroe anyway. We got cinematics where Tyrande and Malfurion were triumphant. They pushed Nathanos out, Tyrande even tracked him down, and then she killed him and his dogs. Granted, he was aiming to go to the Shadowlands, so that part can be considered a half-loss half-victory (as now he could be killed permanently in the SL if she wanted to), but losing the Warfront couldn't have been good for the war effort of delivering more souls to Sylvanas and the Jailer.

    The community tends to turn their backs on major characters when they kill often enough, no matter how justified they are. When characters get too violent -- like Varian, or Jaina better yet -- Theramore was a terrible tragedy, and she was going to wipe out Orgrimmar for it. Despite Jaina's vengeance being as justified as Tyrande's was, it was literally the same situation present -- but Thrall had to talk Jaina down because players rebelled against the violent Jaina. If Jaina had followed through with the massacre, players would have continued to demand Jaina's head on a pike. Same situation here. Jaina was also in a situation at the time where players were lamenting the whole "My King..." thing. And in Legion, people were lamenting the "Tyrande, I need you," bit. People have more forgiveness for the Tyrande violent amazon fantasy, but understand more is at stake here than JUST the story having a satisfying ending. It's the character potentially falling into Mary Sue trappings if the power trip goes on too long. It's the Vengeance cycle going on too long and making the character unlikable. It's the kill-stealing taking all our hard work and making it worthless. It's also the potential wasting of story-arcs of characters like Sylvanas and the Jailer at the same time as all of that. It could be a much bigger mess than JUST one character - it could be multiple, and it could damage Tyrande more for longer if it had been done like that. It was the safe move, and frankly, to avoid the outrage, I think it was the best choice.
    I just will point it out again - Sylvanas was doing far more grievous shit to Alliance for ages and nobody had a problem with it in her faction and she only faces a shred of consequences now , and i STRONGLY believe she will not just die.

    So yeah, i dont see why Tyrande has to be restrained in such a manner when another character was allowed to go ape for so long. And Sylvanas never had a reason as good as Tyrande’s. at least against Alliance, not Arthas.

  2. #42
    Remember how judgmental Tyrande was toward Illidan for embracing a power to save his people?

    At least he arguably succeeded at something...

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I just will point it out again - Sylvanas was doing far more grievous shit to Alliance for ages and nobody had a problem with it in her faction and she only faces a shred of consequences now , and i STRONGLY believe she will not just die.

    So yeah, i dont see why Tyrande has to be restrained in such a manner when another character was allowed to go ape for so long. And Sylvanas never had a reason as good as Tyrande’s. at least against Alliance, not Arthas.
    Sylvanas' actions, while fine for loyalists, were reviled enough to incur a coup. This is more a playerbase issue than an in-game character issue. Theramore probably would have been fine with Jaina destroying Org. But so were the Orcs with Garrosh. And so would the Humans with Varian. And so on with Tyrande and her Night Elves. The characters are all okay with vengeance -- that's the world they're in, the cycle of hatred is real there. But for players, they're divisive. Some are okay with the slaughter, and even ask for things like "bringing the war back in Warcraft." We see these sorts of movements periodically, of the community trying to force more conflict and others sick of the HvA conflict. If Tyrande had gone on a blood craze for too long, it would've pissed one side off too far in the other direction. Too much of one thing. Like Orc oversaturation in WoD.

    This way appealed more to a neutral stance -- they got enough vengeance that was reasonable, without making too many people angry about all the blood taken on the other faction. This leaves her enough room to continue hating, and to continue killing later when the flames of war are stoked, without forcing the character to tred Mary Sue powers, or kill-stealing leaders for us, or wasting all those characters' arcs.

    The reason isn't to appeal the story. It's to appeal the players behind the story to not go after the character's throat. That's why it's necessary. To create breathing room for the character, to not oversaturate the story with too much Tyrande all at once. She can have a good moment, it can settle, people can be fine with it, and she can get another one later. It doesn't have to all be all at once. Not all major character arcs go on in one full swing that never stops. Because like in WoD, and like when Jaina went on her vengeance streak, sometimes that backfires horribly and people just don't like it. Stopping when the going is good is fair enough. It leaves people wanting more which is better than hating where they're at.

    She can still do more, more I'd argue is expected with how Elune is being framed right now with other Night Warriors in the picture, but what matters now is that players at least currently aren't asking for Tyrande's head on a pike. This is an improvement to the situation of Legion where people were hating on the character. It may not have been 100% ideal, but at least it wasn't a disaster following another disaster.
    Last edited by Razion; 2021-06-07 at 03:19 AM.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Somewhere where canon still exists
    Posts
    8,689
    Everyone loves Sylvanas

    Can't have anyone actually want to kill her because that would mean she could actually die, so lets just make Anduin feel sad for her and Tyrande suddenly just drop it like all Sylvanas did was eat the last oreo that Ty wanted from the cookie jar.

    Who cares the countless people she murdered and many of those were sent to the deepest darkest pit of hell as well...everyone loves Sylvanas!
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Tyrande got her massacre of Horde soldiers in the Battle For Darkshroe anyway. We got cinematics where Tyrande and Malfurion were triumphant. They pushed Nathanos out, Tyrande even tracked him down, and then she killed him and his dogs. Granted, he was aiming to go to the Shadowlands, so that part can be considered a half-loss half-victory (as now he could be killed permanently in the SL if she wanted to), but losing the Warfront couldn't have been good for the war effort of delivering more souls to Sylvanas and the Jailer.

    The community tends to turn their backs on major characters when they kill often enough, no matter how justified they are. When characters get too violent -- like Varian, or Jaina better yet -- Theramore was a terrible tragedy, and she was going to wipe out Orgrimmar for it. Despite Jaina's vengeance being as justified as Tyrande's was, it was literally the same situation present -- but Thrall had to talk Jaina down because players rebelled against the violent Jaina. If Jaina had followed through with the massacre, players would have continued to demand Jaina's head on a pike. Same situation here. Jaina was also in a situation at the time where players were lamenting the whole "My King..." thing. And in Legion, people were lamenting the "Tyrande, I need you," bit. People have more forgiveness for the Tyrande violent amazon fantasy, but understand more is at stake here than JUST the story having a satisfying ending. It's the character potentially falling into Mary Sue trappings if the power trip goes on too long. It's the Vengeance cycle going on too long and making the character unlikable. It's the kill-stealing taking all our hard work and making it worthless. It's also the potential wasting of story-arcs of characters like Sylvanas and the Jailer at the same time as all of that. It could be a much bigger mess than JUST one character - it could be multiple, and it could damage Tyrande more for longer if it had been done like that. It was the safe move, and frankly, to avoid the outrage, I think it was the best choice.
    In a nutshell. Tyrande never had to have been a night war because it is a Vasia plot and her only achievement is something that she could already do without problems without powers.

    Plus a more in-depth explanation why the Concept of the Night War is wrong from the base of the story.

    In conclusion the night war this does not make any sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    She can still do more, more I'd argue is expected with how Elune is being framed right now with other Night Warriors in the picture, but what matters now is that players at least currently aren't asking for Tyrande's head on a pike. This is an improvement to the situation of Legion where people were hating on the character. It may not have been 100% ideal, but at least it wasn't a disaster following another disaster.
    I don't know if I'm following the thread. But we are saying that he is a useless character who steals screen time.
    We are asking for his head on a pike and on the official forums as well. Only we are not asking so directly because it would be asking a lot to kill another Kaldorei character.

    Although of course there are Horde players who have been requesting it from BFA.


    PS: Should we take a breath from Tyrande from the breath she took at BFA?
    No Achievement is still on and we already have to take a break from it? So that in two expansions I do not achieve anything again?
    Last edited by geco; 2021-06-07 at 03:54 AM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I think you got lost in the concept of the night warrior.
    The warrior invoked in the darkest hour to be the representation of revenge.

    If in 2 expansions it becomes relevant. But he was still useless in helping the Kaldorei in their darkest hour. Then it's going to continue to be disappointing.
    It is clear that in two expansions an "even darker hour" passes.

    On the other hand the Vaykull are a race. They do not exist for a reason nor were they invoked to fulfill a function.

    About being a cosmetic story. If it's a "These eyes represent that Elune's power is trash" story.

    PS: If instead, for example, the night warrior was Maiev and his power was used to recover the Kaldorei territory or for something (Although it is not something great. But something useful) If it would be enough.
    What the power was originally sought for doesn't have to remain its only purpose, though. Did Tirion lay down Ashbringer and retire after Arthas' death?

    Also from what we've learned about the power it seems that it always destroyed its users, sometimes before it even helped them get the revenge they sought it for.

    As for the "vaykull" I don't understand anything about what it said.

    And your PS, it WAS used to reclaim night elf territory. The elves are the canonical leaders of the Darkshore battleground.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    I'm assuming you mean the art of the cinematics and maybe the zones because my god I have to ask myself if the gear design team just was completely fired during covid so they just had 1 set of gear for the whole expansion. Then again the gear in BfA also seemed very one dimensional as well, but there was slightly more variance.
    Definitely the art of the zone lol. Even the cinematics were piss poor

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Tyrande too must embrace world peace so the entire Azeroth cast can fully merge into the hivemind.

    It's part of the broader messaging of this and the previous expansion especially but arguably as far back as Wrath too. Any kind of grievance or motivation by anything except universal love for all mankind, any grudge held over harm caused to you or your group is bad and makes you just as bad as the perpetrator. It is a barking form of morality, but it's only once you internalize this that you can also make sense of other choices like how both Arthas and Sylvanas are en route to getting a get out of jail free card and it's Uther who's made to feel bad about how he didn't show compassion to Arthas after Arthas killed everyone Uther'd ever met and cared about and destroyed everything Uther tried to protect.
    Preach it.

    The lovey-dovey lately is so sickening. That's not what made previous Warcraft games good. It was the hatred, the rage, the vengeance and the wars that did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    What @Super Dickmann said, to push the writers' smug, hypocritical pseudo-morality.

    In game, to throw Alliance players a bone and let them pretend they get actual story developments. Obviously they don't, because every. single. character. that ever thinks the Horde might not be innocent choirboys is re-educated and then resets back to sitting duck for the next time someone in the Horde declares genocide for a stubbed toe.


    Pretty much that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazmalak View Post
    Vengeance, depression, sorrow, hatred, and anger are perfectly natural responses to the traumas of life and I'm kind of tired of pretending that it's not. We have plenty of other characters pushing peace as an option, we don't need it from every single character.
    Amen.

    I'm so done with this peaceful mindset.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dazmalak View Post
    I'd prefer the Horde embrace it's conquer and destroy roots to counter that rather than continually push, lose, turn "good" for a day, rinse, repeat.
    Like they were always meant to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    One of the reasons i dislike “evil” horde is because it always ends up in humiliating Alliance through and through and then facing no consequences by some shitty copout.
    I get what you mean, but do you prefer them to be a goodie-two-shoes faction? Basically, a second Alliance? Because there would be no reason for the divide, or for this game to exist at all...

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    The community tends to turn their backs on major characters when they kill often enough, no matter how justified they are. When characters get too violent -- like Varian, or Jaina better yet -- Theramore was a terrible tragedy, and she was going to wipe out Orgrimmar for it. Despite Jaina's vengeance being as justified as Tyrande's was, it was literally the same situation present -- but Thrall had to talk Jaina down because players rebelled against the violent Jaina. If Jaina had followed through with the massacre, players would have continued to demand Jaina's head on a pike. Same situation here. Jaina was also in a situation at the time where players were lamenting the whole "My King..." thing. And in Legion, people were lamenting the "Tyrande, I need you," bit. People have more forgiveness for the Tyrande violent amazon fantasy, but understand more is at stake here than JUST the story having a satisfying ending. It's the character potentially falling into Mary Sue trappings if the power trip goes on too long. It's the Vengeance cycle going on too long and making the character unlikable. It's the kill-stealing taking all our hard work and making it worthless. It's also the potential wasting of story-arcs of characters like Sylvanas and the Jailer at the same time as all of that. It could be a much bigger mess than JUST one character - it could be multiple, and it could damage Tyrande more for longer if it had been done like that. It was the safe move, and frankly, to avoid the outrage, I think it was the best choice.
    Why do characters need to be dictated by players' feelings?
    Do we not need badass villains/protagonists in a story arc?
    Garrosh and Arthas are prime examples of a well-done characterization. No need to apologize for their actions, or turn them into sorry-asses. We love to hate them and we admire them because they are so charismatic and interesting. Not because they change for the better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Sylvanas' actions, while fine for loyalists, were reviled enough to incur a coup. This is more a playerbase issue than an in-game character issue. Theramore probably would have been fine with Jaina destroying Org. But so were the Orcs with Garrosh. And so would the Humans with Varian. And so on with Tyrande and her Night Elves. The characters are all okay with vengeance -- that's the world they're in, the cycle of hatred is real there. But for players, they're divisive. Some are okay with the slaughter, and even ask for things like "bringing the war back in Warcraft." We see these sorts of movements periodically, of the community trying to force more conflict and others sick of the HvA conflict. If Tyrande had gone on a blood craze for too long, it would've pissed one side off too far in the other direction. Too much of one thing. Like Orc oversaturation in WoD.

    This way appealed more to a neutral stance -- they got enough vengeance that was reasonable, without making too many people angry about all the blood taken on the other faction. This leaves her enough room to continue hating, and to continue killing later when the flames of war are stoked, without forcing the character to tred Mary Sue powers, or kill-stealing leaders for us, or wasting all those characters' arcs.

    The reason isn't to appeal the story. It's to appeal the players behind the story to not go after the character's throat. That's why it's necessary. To create breathing room for the character, to not oversaturate the story with too much Tyrande all at once. She can have a good moment, it can settle, people can be fine with it, and she can get another one later. It doesn't have to all be all at once. Not all major character arcs go on in one full swing that never stops. Because like in WoD, and like when Jaina went on her vengeance streak, sometimes that backfires horribly and people just don't like it. Stopping when the going is good is fair enough. It leaves people wanting more which is better than hating where they're at.

    She can still do more, more I'd argue is expected with how Elune is being framed right now with other Night Warriors in the picture, but what matters now is that players at least currently aren't asking for Tyrande's head on a pike. This is an improvement to the situation of Legion where people were hating on the character. It may not have been 100% ideal, but at least it wasn't a disaster following another disaster.
    Again, why does the story have to revolve around what players like or not? Did they do this with their previous games? You think players know to distinguish between a good story or not? Have they any storytelling talents whatsoever?

    I'd rather Tyrande have something than nothing at all. Being afraid to push too far off because of players' backlash is what would destroy this game's storytelling because you're constantly afraid of losing subscribers, so everything has to fit the playerbase's mindset, even if they are 3 year olds who have no idea about good storytelling.

    Going the direction you're suggesting is the most dangerous thing about current storytelling and character development: going by the players' desires, and the overall mindset in society, instead of by professional storytellers and writers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It feels like a holdover of BfA's hamfisted message of peace at all costs
    You said it, pal.


    I'm just cringing over the dialogue and voiceover of the entire ritual:
    "Tyrande, do not lose yourself to anger!".
    "I remember this power... a double-edged sword".
    "Seldom have i seen a mortal wield such rage".
    "I don't think she's listening" "That's not Good".
    "The night Warrior's fury will annihilate us! Contain it!".
    "No! She's absorbing even more of Elune's power".
    "That is really not good"

    It feels and sounds like a toddler's TV show, where everything is exaggerated and theatrical. I just want to puke. That is not the game that i got hooked on. They're "baby-fying" it.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    So yeah, i dont see why Tyrande has to be restrained in such a manner when another character was allowed to go ape for so long. And Sylvanas never had a reason as good as Tyrande’s. at least against Alliance, not Arthas.
    Because we have to be embracing and understanding.

    "Tyrande, relinquish all hatred and anger. I beg you!" - Shandris.
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-06-07 at 10:33 AM.
    Read First! (Very Important)
    Dear Scrapbot or Moderator:
    Before you, recklessly, hand out an infraction - if i, accidently, broke the rules without being aware, i would very much appreciate a warning first, in the manner of a green text/edit or a private message.
    Thank you in advance.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    What the power was originally sought for doesn't have to remain its only purpose, though. Did Tirion lay down Ashbringer and retire after Arthas' death?

    Also from what we've learned about the power it seems that it always destroyed its users, sometimes before it even helped them get the revenge they sought it for.

    As for the "vaykull" I don't understand anything about what it said.

    And your PS, it WAS used to reclaim night elf territory. The elves are the canonical leaders of the Darkshore battleground.
    but the sword did manage to beat Arthas. not? Imagine if afterwards all the work of forging the sword did not hurt Arthas, but they hardly used it.

    as far as we know the power only killed one user. The other was murdered and apparently she lived without problems with power.

    They did not use the power to reclaim Darkshore. Tyrande leaves and it is Maiev who fights. Tyrande was MIA.
    The thing is, it is not even cannon that the Pj has black eyes. They asked in the interview the reason for the black eyes of the pjs and they said. "Make up the reason you think."

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Sylvanas' actions, while fine for loyalists, were reviled enough to incur a coup. This is more a playerbase issue than an in-game character issue. Theramore probably would have been fine with Jaina destroying Org. But so were the Orcs with Garrosh. And so would the Humans with Varian. And so on with Tyrande and her Night Elves. The characters are all okay with vengeance -- that's the world they're in, the cycle of hatred is real there. But for players, they're divisive. Some are okay with the slaughter, and even ask for things like "bringing the war back in Warcraft." We see these sorts of movements periodically, of the community trying to force more conflict and others sick of the HvA conflict. If Tyrande had gone on a blood craze for too long, it would've pissed one side off too far in the other direction. Too much of one thing. Like Orc oversaturation in WoD.

    This way appealed more to a neutral stance -- they got enough vengeance that was reasonable, without making too many people angry about all the blood taken on the other faction. This leaves her enough room to continue hating, and to continue killing later when the flames of war are stoked, without forcing the character to tred Mary Sue powers, or kill-stealing leaders for us, or wasting all those characters' arcs.

    The reason isn't to appeal the story. It's to appeal the players behind the story to not go after the character's throat. That's why it's necessary. To create breathing room for the character, to not oversaturate the story with too much Tyrande all at once. She can have a good moment, it can settle, people can be fine with it, and she can get another one later. It doesn't have to all be all at once. Not all major character arcs go on in one full swing that never stops. Because like in WoD, and like when Jaina went on her vengeance streak, sometimes that backfires horribly and people just don't like it. Stopping when the going is good is fair enough. It leaves people wanting more which is better than hating where they're at.

    She can still do more, more I'd argue is expected with how Elune is being framed right now with other Night Warriors in the picture, but what matters now is that players at least currently aren't asking for Tyrande's head on a pike. This is an improvement to the situation of Legion where people were hating on the character. It may not have been 100% ideal, but at least it wasn't a disaster following another disaster.
    And again i counter with simple fact that Sylvanas was “at it” since Cata! Its FIVE expansions already.

    If a character allowed to be an utter asshole for THAT long then Tyrande deserves no less then that. Then after the time has passed it will be fine to kill her off or allow her to leave the scene.

    Also “enough” vengeance? They have gotten NONE of the vengeance. Its not even “arguable” its factual. There was no tangible vengeance and response to horde’s rampant war crimes and genocide! No consequences aside from Warchief leaving the scene… for now. No guarantees that horde will not attack them again! No resolution to Ashenvale! We dont even know if Ashenvale is liberated of horde’s forces. Its not “vengeance” its nothing.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2021-06-07 at 12:55 PM.

  11. #51
    @VladlTutushkin

    Allow me to translate for you. "I play Horde and I've seen how the devs treat Alliance in all aspects of the game. I'm scared shitless they'll do the same to the Horde, so I don't want even story consequences that might start us down Nerf Road."
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @VladlTutushkin

    Allow me to translate for you. "I play Horde and I've seen how the devs treat Alliance in all aspects of the game. I'm scared shitless they'll do the same to the Horde, so I don't want even story consequences that might start us down Nerf Road."
    Yep. Always gives me that vibe. “Oh fuck, what if they turn tables and start writing Horde like they do Alliance? Oh no, no, no, no…” for all Horde’s “might” they are surprisingly tender and i’d say weak when it comes to facing the music and having tables turned on them.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Sylvanas' actions, while fine for loyalists, were reviled enough to incur a coup. This is more a playerbase issue than an in-game character issue.
    This bit here is a huge disconnect with a lot of players.

    Character wise the story is a total and complete mess with numerous characters breaking the blood oath because they took issue with weird stuff that made little sense for their backstory or was purely there to push drama at a moment. Baine shouldn't have been at his breaking point for some undead he'd barely known when he'd witnessed other groups massacred in the war first hand.... to include his own people.

    Saurfang shouldn't have been afforded such reverence when he was so wishy washy on conflicts HE orchestrated voluntarily for someone he'd already declared he'd kill personally if things weren't proper.

    OVerall they made the story a vehicle to railroad stuff that didn't make sense to rush yet another Horde Warchief is bad storyline and reused the SoO assets for the quest chain so we can take down the baddy while not at all questioning why we have to preemptively defend the honor of the nation we're fighting for by murdering guards and soldiers away from the field of combat in their sleeping quarters at times.


    Ugh but about Tyrande. They gave her this huge powerboost with no explained limitations and said it was very self destructive.... but you know... it never WAS self destructive at all. She just turned very goth/emo/whatever and angry at everything while threatening to do stuff and everyone trying top tiptoe around her to avoid pissing her off (which should be a typical stance against night elves anyways because Malfurion can walk up to a nation and wave his hand and decimate said nation). AND the power boost seemed unremarkable since she was barely going even against a ranger with a valkyr (totally known for their combat power right?)

    In the end Tyrande's arc only served as a method to usher in an alright cosmetic change and a botched edgy story they wanted to retire ASAP.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @VladlTutushkin

    Allow me to translate for you. "I play Horde and I've seen how the devs treat Alliance in all aspects of the game. I'm scared shitless they'll do the same to the Horde, so I don't want even story consequences that might start us down Nerf Road."
    let me speak for all faction of the wow playerbase and say:

    "don't do us like the elves please! for the love of god!"

    edit:

    we can all take a Teldrassil.. maybe... but that "hush Tyrande" and totally defanging every bit of edge to turn into hanger on yes people for another faction protagonist.... no.
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-06-07 at 04:26 PM.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    Allow me to play Devil's Advocate, if you would, because I can admittedly say that it has always been somewhat of a theme that vengeance will always result in worse harm coming to all people involved, including innocents you pass along the way, throughout all of Warcraft's story starting from Warcraft III. In Warcraft III, it was most prominent in the story of Arthas, but also highlighted in the story of Maiev - both, in going too far in the means by which they sought justice, did far more harm than good, the former to others and the latter to herself. Early in the Human campaign, Uther even points out that if Arthas were to seek out vengeance against the Orcs through too drastic means when fighting the Blackrock, he would become just as vile as them, and this sentiment echoes through the story as Arthas eventually condemns mercenaries to die, traps his men in Northrend, and eventually quite literally loses his soul to the pursuits of retribution.
    I won't spend too much time on how Tyrande's own narrative fails because I already wrote far too much on how I'd do the Night Warrior, given the same limitations. The one aspect I didn't cover as much as I could have and that you cover is that you can make a story about revenge being bad. Indeed, you can, but what sets apart the story of Arthas or Maiev from Tyrande isn't just the concept but the way it is shown to us. We're not simply told that Arthas wants to kill Mal'ganis and that's bad. The narrative depicts to us the length he's willing to go to - killing all of Stratholme, lying to his men after stranding them on purpose in defiance of his father's orders, etc. and what it does to the bonds of those with him, namely Jaina and Uther. The other thing with Arthas in particular though is that his revenge is compounded by his narcissism. The same with Maiev, we aren't just told that she's bad because she's obsessed with Illidan but see her lie to Malfurion about Tyrande to get her way and the story tells you what you can see with your own eyes - that after ten thousand years on the job and after losing everyone else she's close to going after Illidan is all that defines her in life and she's unwilling to let that slip for people she doesn't even like like Tyrande.

    Tyrande herself though is not a demonstration of this. We never once see an adverse consequence or collateral damage to the Horde - nothing distinguishes the apparently amoral way Tyrande does what she does from the moral way the Alliance strikes back at Lordaeron for example. Indeed, there's no way you can even characterize her action as meaningfully different from every character because in terms of motive she wants what everyone else does - to go after Sylvanas and in terms of actual involvement in the plot she does jack except clear a bunch of fodder Forsaken, which is nothing compared to the stuff Jaina pulls on a routine basis or even what a particular big gorilla does in Dazar'alor. Since we have no substantive motivational difference and no actions to speak of from which to come to the conclusion ourselves that the power of the Night Warrior is dangerous and that she's losing her way, we're left with interpersonal drama to cover the gaps. We're told incessantly that Tyrande is doing something wrong and her family and friends worry that she isn't fighting it. But why exactly is that? What part of Tyrande's non-platform exactly is unreasonable?

    As people from obviously different parts of the fandom like @VladlTutushkin and @Dazmalak essentially agree on, Tyrande has the most understandable and correct grievance we've had in quite some time. Being upset about the destruction of a large part of your race's civilian population and not just being upset about the leader but about the people who helped her execute it, who were in favor of every other attack on your territory that's made you weaker and weaker every go around is perfectly human and even laudable. To not do so - to take such things in stride isn't being reasonable or heroic, it's being dangerously naive. It's in fact one of the things that make the Night Warrior narrative even worse - we're told Tyrande is taking it too far but at no point does she take any action against the bugbear in the room which is the Horde at large and seems perfectly content to go after Sylvanas exclusively or hell, to let Thrall do it for her per the book. So are the other night elves. So what then is the distinction between her and everyone else? The answer there is that Tyrande alone has a personal stake in the resolution of this conflict - she isn't mad that Sylvanas is a bad lady but that Sylvanas cooked her people and city in particular. Yet, much like with Tirion being the one to deal with Arthas while the Forsaken, Blood Elves, Jaina and so forth huddle in a corner, the actual kill isn't on the person who has that grievance but on people with no tie to Sylvanas whatsoever - Thrall, Bolvar and Jaina.

    This too isn't by itself a narrative dealbreaker. While many disagree I think having Sylvanas's narrative spin out of the fact that she didn't actually get her vengeance herself and what she is to do now was a good way to salvage cutting her and the Forsaken out of Arthas to replace them with a generic paladin and the diet-Forsaken that are the Death Knights, up until BTS shat the bed on that one. But that isn't Tyrande's story - it isn't of Tyrande being slighted and not achieving her revenge, of this being one in the long list of times that the Night Elves have paid the price for their allies and what this does to their mindset and how they act from there. It's a story of Tyrande learning that none of that really mattered and that only world peace is a worthwhile goal - that the suffering of any people is interchangable with any other and that holding a person to account for the extreme harm they've done you and your people is bad.

    @mickybrighteyes

    Pick your poison. The Night Elf route is to get excessive focus as the victim of a pity party and then learn about love and peace on screen in repeated cinematics, with your cast completely intact, having lost no one of remote consequence, but pointless. The Forsaken route is to have your race retconned in a side book, lose every incidental character to a black hole and every major character on-screen and then never have your losses brought up again with your new Alliance-donated leaders taking over off-screen. The Forsaken situation is transparently worse, but also so much of an afterthought compared to books and cinematics and now a whole subzone in Shadowlands dedicate to the tree that it goes to the backseat. Though mercifully unlike saving Jaina's brother after she escaped a raid unharmed I can skip everything about bailing night elves out by just picking a different Covenant and simply reading their story on wowpedia. And by can I mean did.

    Don't even get started on the orc vs human comparison which is even more galling, especially given the ink spilled about 'orc fatigue', when the human cast is a metastasizing cancer over every storyline whereas the orcish one is down to Thrall being sad and post-humiliation Eitrigg after Saurfang had to be taught about honor by a human and then died. The orcish system of government was then disbanded as an afterthought that was apparently at the root of all evil compared to such laudable and flawless systems like absolute monarchy. But hey, at least Thrall gets to bash mobs with a crossbow in melee and get saved by Jaina.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-06-08 at 06:18 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  15. #55
    Yeah... i was quite dissapointed with everything they did with the nighelves. Lost their home. And all you see is tyranda running around while Shandris runs after her. No development for her people in any way sadly. Where are they? Do they actually have houses? Anything?
    You could have done so much with it. Tyrande taking revenge by killing every horde NPC in Ashenvale and securing it for the alliance for good. But noooo.... she runs into the maw, rescues 20 Nightelves and then looses and gets saved... much wow. Nightelves once again will be sidelined with no development anywhere.

    That is actually my biggest problem with wow. Not the story itself which is fine. The fact that development ONLY happens around the faction leaders. Everything else is in a constant stasis. The races don't change. DOn't develop in any way.

    Undead and Nightelves are just the tip. Undead get a little bit in BFA with the undead elves, lilian and calia. That is it. Nightelves might as well just be one person.

  16. #56
    There was no point to the night warrior arc. In 8.1 there was an interview where they said this about Tyrande and why she didn't have a place in the Azshara patch:

    I think she had her moment where we told some of her story and she got her revenge for the Night Elves.
    https://www.wowhead.com/news/tyrande...lizzard-291733

    Now if you think about it from the perspective of they had no other plans for Tyrande and the night elves after 8.1, the story makes a lot more sense. The night warrior was just suppose to be a cosmetic eye option for night elves to match the blood elves getting golden eyes in 8.0, since only the horde in BfA got additional cosmetics options (Golden eyes and straight backs for orcs). The entire night warrior story was just to give the night elves a mirrored option.

    Then if you continue to look at how they wrote the night warrior where she is consumed by vengeance to kill Sylvanas, why didn't she show up when the alliance and horde were doing their assault on Org? Why did she give up her only chance to fight Sylvanas? It was obvious they had no plans for the night elves or Tyrande after 8.1, that is why they were mostly written out of the story. That is why in SL Tyrande only does 2 cameos before 9.1 (before she jumps into the portal to the Maw before disappearing, and then again in one of the quests for the max level ardeanweld questing).

    We have seen no demonstrations of the night warrior power, only that it seems to be a useless power that is killing her for no reason. Then in 9.1 they take away the killing part because they realized the night warrior was entirely pointless and that we need to move on from what probably planned originally to only be a cosmetic eye option.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    There was no point to the night warrior arc. In 8.1 there was an interview where they said this about Tyrande and why she didn't have a place in the Azshara patch:
    You're assuming that 8.1 made some sense.
    When it is more than clear that the night war is rather something added at the last minute because you already know losing 15% of your profits is not exactly a good business.

    Try to think 8.1 without Tyrande and Malfurion. With Maiev and Shandris in their place. There it would make sense. It makes sense that maiev can't save Sira. More than anything because she was already tired.
    She makes sense that Sira blames Maiev for being late.

  18. #58
    the night warrior was one of the worst story arcs blizzard ever made, and that is saying a lot considering Daloser is vomiting pure garbage constantly.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    You're assuming that 8.1 made some sense.
    When it is more than clear that the night war is rather something added at the last minute because you already know losing 15% of your profits is not exactly a good business.

    Try to think 8.1 without Tyrande and Malfurion. With Maiev and Shandris in their place. There it would make sense. It makes sense that maiev can't save Sira. More than anything because she was already tired.
    She makes sense that Sira blames Maiev for being late.
    You can think about all of BfA (after the prepatch where they needed to be slaughtered for Saurfang to feel sad) and SL without any night elves and nothing really changes. They aren't important to these stories and made no impact on them. 8.1 only made sense in that the night elves should be trying to take back their land and I assume they had that planned, but in the end it didn't really impact the war or any of the lore and it was very poorly executed. There are a lot of things they could have done better in the 8.1 side quest line, but just like Tyrande killing a Valk in 8.1, it was entirely pointless.

    The story with the night warrior only makes sense when you think about them only adding it to justify a cosmetic option, sure Tyrande and her night warrior powers are not important to any story and she does nothing, but your druid can have black eyes because she did that side quest.

  20. #60
    Banned sam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    7,980
    is that new thread or continue of old thread?
    tldr: show how better superior humans are in wow, as usual, everything in wow since years exist to suck humans dicks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •