New item level cap in Tazavesh makes it dead on arrival for many mains

[Accendor]

226 is much better than 210 + valor upgrades. You'd need to spend a completely absurd amount of valor to make a 210 item relevant in 9.1. M0 dungeons aren't supposed to drop relevant loot for well geared mains, they're just there for achievements/mounts. It's not really any different to Karazhan or Mechagon.

... except both examples you just gave provided relevant loot.

[Tziva]

I disagree with just about every statement there.

A zero, even a new one, should not offer better gear than the mythic raid from the immediately prior patch. I don't think that's ever happened with any mid-expac dungeon release ever where the most recent mythic raiding gear was immediately obsolete by a dungeon. At best, it's always been supplemental.

Second, I disagree that the majority of the main population is in full 226. I suspect the actual population in 226 gear in every slot is very small, although I suppose that's the kind of stats one could gather from the armory API if so inclined. I am sure lots of people are close in total ilvl (averaging out their legendary ilvl) but that still leaves multiple slots that can be upgraded at 226. I know that despite three m+ vault slots a week, I still have seven slots at 220 on my main (who is ilvl 224) that could potentially be replaced there. But even if it was true that most mains were at 226 in every slot, there is still the potential for some replacements due to better itemisation or good trinkets.

Third, people run content for reasons besides just gear. I do think the gear treadmill is important to WoW, but plenty of people will play the dungeon for things other than gear: learning it for when it becomes available in m+, achievements, cosmetic rewards and, you know, just for the experience. People will also run it on alts, and I'm not sure you can call a dungeon "dead" just because a player happens to be running it a lot on an alt instead of a main. That player is still doing the content.

226 is a good place that makes it a solid catch-up method for new alts and rerolls while still being high enough that it could potentially be appealing to mains to hunt those few pieces to supplement their existing gear.

[Temp name]

Okay...I admit I am lost here. wowhead say ilv reward is 184, a german site says it is 210 (I linked both) a poster replying here said the rewards are 226.

So what is it? I am sure 226 is not rewarded by normal raiding?
Hopefully somebody can once and for all clear this up. Until then...I agree...it would be ok if the new 5 man mega dungeon would reward gear equivalent to current normal raid difficulty.

It's 226 on the PTR, same as the 9.1 raid on normal
dungeon loot
raid loot

[ro9ue]

A zero, even a new one, should not offer better gear than the mythic raid from the immediately prior patch. I don't think that's ever happened with any mid-expac dungeon release ever where the most recent mythic raiding gear was immediately obsolete by a dungeon. At best, it's always been supplemental.

Second, I disagree that the majority of the main population is in full 226. I suspect the actual population in 226 gear in every slot is very small, although I suppose that's the kind of stats one could gather from the armory API if so inclined. I am sure lots of people are close in total ilvl (averaging out their legendary ilvl) but that still leaves multiple slots that can be upgraded at 226. I know that despite three m+ vault slots a week, I still have seven slots at 220 on my main (who is ilvl 224) that could potentially be replaced there. But even if it was true that most mains were at 226 in every slot, there is still the potential for some replacements due to better itemisation or good trinkets.

Pretty much these two things right here. If anything, 226 is too high.

[munkeyinorbit]

Every mythic Raider or at least halfway serious m+ player is at least 224 at this point. That is a large fraction of the playerbase. Is it the biggest? Most likely not, but I never claimed that

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In that case, normal Raid itemlevel is also tuned too low.

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Just to clear up song things: mega dungeons normally had a weekly loot lockout. You can hardly call playing 1 dungeon a week for 2 weeks a grind, no matter what.
I also never claimed the people who are 226 now (or pretty close to it) are the majority, but they are a large part of the playerbase.

Last but not least: is it really good design of all content except raiding is designed for alts?
IMO all content should be foremost designed for mains. Implications for alts can and should be considered of course, but not as the main focus.

You are objectively wrong. It is NOT a large part of the player base. A small part of the player base even attempts mythic plus and a small part of this small part of the player base would find no upgrades in the new mega dungeon. You are complaining for attention.

[Accendor]

I disagree with just about every statement there.

A zero, even a new one, should not offer better gear than the mythic raid from the immediately prior patch. I don't think that's ever happened with any mid-expac dungeon release ever where the most recent mythic raiding gear was immediately obsolete by a dungeon. At best, it's always been supplemental.

Second, I disagree that the majority of the main population is in full 226. I suspect the actual population in 226 gear in every slot is very small, although I suppose that's the kind of stats one could gather from the armory API if so inclined. I am sure lots of people are close in total ilvl (averaging out their legendary ilvl) but that still leaves multiple slots that can be upgraded at 226. I know that despite three m+ vault slots a week, I still have seven slots at 220 on my main (who is ilvl 224) that could potentially be replaced there. But even if it was true that most mains were at 226 in every slot, there is still the potential for some replacements due to better itemisation or good trinkets.

Third, people run content for reasons besides just gear. I do think the gear treadmill is important to WoW, but plenty of people will play the dungeon for things other than gear: learning it for when it becomes available in m+, achievements, cosmetic rewards and, you know, just for the experience. People will also run it on alts, and I'm not sure you can call a dungeon "dead" just because a player happens to be running it a lot on an alt instead of a main. That player is still doing the content.

226 is a good place that makes it a solid catch-up method for new alts and rerolls while still being high enough that it could potentially be appealing to mains to hunt those few pieces to supplement their existing gear.

Nobody said anything about a majority here.

That "run it just for fun" does not work SL has shown until now also already. Once again: New content should not be designed for alts first.

[Toybox]

I don't see what's wrong with a new dungeon giving the same rewards as M+15/Mythic raid/2100+ PvP. If everything HAD to be better than everything in a previous patch we'd be seeing stat-squishes every single expansions.

[Osmeric]

My experience with both Karazhan in Legion and Mechagon in BfA was to ignore the dungeons until they split them into ordinary 5 mans.

Of course, this new dungeon means nothing to me now as I have long since unsubbed.

[Tziva]

Nobody said anything about a majority here.

I mean, it's inferred by framing this thread as if you are concerned about people's mains, as if it applies to most people's mains. It almost certainly doesn't.

That "run it just for fun" does not work SL has shown until now also already.

This is begging the question, but I also gave plenty of other reasons besides "just for fun."

Once again: New content should not be designed for alts first.

It's not, and I just spent multiple paragraphs explaining why.

That said, I'd argue that content shouldn't be designed necessarily for mains either; it should be designed for players.

[Hellobolis]

wasn't that the case for karazhan and mechagon too? don't recall ever doing those for gear until they became M+ a patch later.

[Zyky]

I've given up trying to figure out their thought process because I'm convinced it doesn't actually exist at this point.

The thought process isn't hard to figure out. Their aim is to force you to spend as much time in game for minimal upgrade possibilities. The success metric swapped to "time spent in game" from active subs back in WoD because the sub numbers showed that they were failing at designing the game in an enjoyable way(yes this includes Legion, which did have some great features, but had way too many downsides to counter the few good features). So how do you keep investors off your back? Switch your success metric to something that sounds bigger and better than it actually is, "The average player spends 30+ hours a week in game" sounds a hell of a lot better than "we lost 700k subs this quarter".

[tomten]

So what is it? I am sure 226 is not rewarded by normal raiding?
Hopefully somebody can once and for all clear this up. Until then...I agree...it would be ok if the new 5 man mega dungeon would reward gear equivalent to current normal raid difficulty.

Normal raiding for chains of damnation, the new raid. Not CN.
Which is pretty standard? Mythic loot last tier becomes normal loot in new raid?
And the mega dungeon is just that, comparable to normal raid but easier and more accessible, so people can catch up for the new raid, on normal.

It's not meant to gear mythic raiders except the odd slot.
I only wish the loot could be upgraded to 233 (which would be on par with mythic raid loot for the last 2 bosses).
Which would make it slightly more useful for a bigger audience.

[Zyky]

wasn't that the case for karazhan and mechagon too? don't recall ever doing those for gear until they became M+ a patch later.

No, the Mechagon dungeon had the punchcards which were huge for a lot of players who used the trinket(which was BiS for some specs and BiS overall in PvP), it also had the bracers for fire mages. Karazhan had a few good pieces too that were better than/on par to raid gear too. That said we don't know how some of the trinkets will stack up, but we'll see.

[GreatNameForSmurfingExTee]

Every mythic Raider or at least halfway serious m+ player is at least 224 at this point. That is a large fraction of the playerbase. Is it the biggest? Most likely not, but I never claimed that

Source? C'mon. Should be easy to back up your claim. I also only quoted you :P

[Hellobolis]

No, the Mechagon dungeon had the punchcards which were huge for a lot of players who used the trinket(which was BiS for some specs and BiS overall in PvP), it also had the bracers for fire mages. Karazhan had a few good pieces too that were better than/on par to raid gear too. That said we don't know how some of the trinkets will stack up, but we'll see.

i don't recall mages QQing about the bracers before it was M+. and the lazer beam punchcard was just from rep, not the dungeon.

think i just did 5 mount runs in both of them when they released and then not much till it became M+.

[Accendor]

I mean, it's inferred by framing this thread as if you are concerned about people's mains, as if it applies to most people's mains. It almost certainly doesn't.

No, its really not. You are making things up here and put words in my mouth that I neither used nor meant. You are not the only one doing that in this thread, which is why I'm calling it out.

[Zyky]

i don't recall mages QQing about the bracers before it was M+. and the lazer beam punchcard was just from rep, not the dungeon.

think i just did 5 mount runs in both of them when they released and then not much till it became M+.

So this shows your, lack of, knowledge of the game. Mages wanted bracers even at base item level because even base IL bracers were worth 125 item levels worth of stats lol also the difference between M15 bracers and base bracers were pretty insignificant(1-2% at most), it was 100% all about the on use effect. Laser beam was from rep, you increased the damage based on item level of the trinket, the punchcards inside mechagon could titanforge which increased the damage significantly.

[Tyris Flare]

Can't you upgrade the loot with valor? I think that's the way it won't be irrelevant.

It will be expensive to do so, but if there's an amazing item or two it might still be worth it until they are added to the standard m+ table

[tomten]

Thanks. In which case it sounds fair enough to me.

Yeah..it "might" piss off ppl who are ilv 226 right now (like...OP?)....but hey...just skip that place if gear is all you want out of it (and not mounts, toys, transmogs, whatever) and get better stuff from the next heroic and mythic raid that also comes with the next patch.

or you can be a freak like myself and just do it because I like playing wow and its a brand new exciting dungeon with 8 bosses to give some variety from only running m+.. But I also do heroic dungeons just cuz sometimes i wanna feel OP and just pull the whole dungeon boss to boss. Each to their own i guess.

[Zyky]

Can't you upgrade the loot with valor? I think that's the way it won't be irrelevant.

It will be expensive to do so, but if there's an amazing item or two it might still be worth it until they are added to the standard m+ table

Did you even read the post? They removed the ability to upgrade the gear with valor and boosted the item level to compensate that.