New item level cap in Tazavesh makes it dead on arrival for many mains

[Jastall]

And those same people who deem 226 gear useless would go ballistic if a base difficulty 5 man dropped Heroic ilvl gear that would "force" them to run it for all of one week.

I'm certain that the average ilvl across level 60 characters is far closer to 205, max 210 than 226. Only a small % of people are KSM+ runners, Mythic raiders and/or 2000+ PvP players with 226 and up gear. A non-keystone dungeon dropping Normal raid gear for those people sounds just about right to me.

[Accendor]

Source? C'mon. Should be easy to back up your claim. I also only quoted you :P

Sorry, I am not exactly sure what backup do you need here, could you elaborate?
My statement was "everyone who raids mythic or plays m+ halfways seriously is either 226 or very close to it"
The rewards for M+ are literally 220 at the end of the dungeon and 226 from the weekly chest, you also have a 235 legendary to compensate multiple "bad" slots.
Mythic Raids drop 226 by default with 233 for the last 2 bosses. It is no unusual for mythic raiders to also do some m+ to fill missing slots.
Like... None of those statements should be surprising or controversial.

Or did you also misread "many players who do m+ or mythic raids" with "the majority of players, no matter what content they do"? Because once again, I never said that.

[Accendor]

I'm certain that the average ilvl across level 60 characters is far closer to 205, max 210 than 226. Only a small % of people are KSM+ runners, Mythic raiders and/or 2000+ PvP players with 226 and up gear. A non-keystone dungeon dropping Normal raid gear for those people sounds just about right to me.

Once again, the argument was never "the majority of players in general".
That being said I just did a quick check and as of right now 3789 guilds have killed at least 8/10 mythic bosses.
At the very least this are roughly 75780 players, but thats only true if each of those guilds only has EXACTLY 20 raiders and this is very unlikely.
In general there are some more factors at play here, e.g. the same player could progress or raid with multiple guilds, but even including that its more likely that a mythic raid has around 22-23 active players.
Lets assume 23 so we are talking about roughly 87200 players.

Thats only the mythic raiders, not the m+ players. Ill be honest, I don't know of a way to get the complete sum of all KSM players and mythics raiders that filters the people out who do both. I think it could be done, but it would be significant effort (much more than I am willing to invest), but I don't think its really necessary.

I am not sure how many players WoW currently still has (given the general public opinion about Shadowlands I assume not as much as everyone would like to, but in the end only Blizzard knows), but I assume that 87200, while not being the majority of course, IS a significant part of the player base and we already know the real number of affected people is most likely much higher than that.

[Tradu]

Don't talk tosh. My friend plays twice a week for 3 hours at a time. Only pugs M+ (plays the odd key on his alt with us but he wanted to keep his main pugged only) started 2 months into the xpac and even he has an almost full set of 226. Pretty sure he disappears for weeks on end too not logging in.

What I think you mean is awful players, and players who don't push themselves.

But why should one of the main pieces of content be tailored around them? You already know the content will be too hard for them anyway.

They made scaling difficulty for a reason yet they seem to disregard that in the mega dungeons.

Here's hoping hard mode has some worthwhile rewards. At least mechagon had the rings, mage bracers, HoA powers etc.

It is pretty disappointing that it takes another full patch before M+ gets released, but I assume part of that is that they're afraid of another Cathedral or Seat from Legion where the tuning was so far off that people basically refused to run those 2 dungeons for the rest of the expansion.

[Accendor]

True..you said "Why exclude a large portion of the playerbase from this content?". So we are nitpicking over words now, are we? Because WTF does "a large portion" even mean? 1000 ppl? 10 000 ppl? 100 000 ppl?

And you presume to speak for them?

I did a rough analyses for the numbers of at least the raiders right here. Its pretty unlikely that the number is lower than 100.000 people if you combine raiders and m+ players.

[Tradu]

... except both examples you just gave provided relevant loot.

No, they didn't. Unless we count the bracers for Fire, where the ilevel was completely irrelevant. Mechagon dropped 415 loot with 1 430 azerite helmet for each armor type. BoD mythic was 415 with a titanforge cap of 425, which was the tier immediately before Mechagon.

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i don't recall mages QQing about the bracers before it was M+. and the lazer beam punchcard was just from rep, not the dungeon.

think i just did 5 mount runs in both of them when they released and then not much till it became M+.

Mages ran M0 for the bracers, but that was only 1 shot per week rather than begging for Workshop keys the entire week. And in the case of the bracers the ilevel was completely irrelevant anyway. They could've been ilevel 0 from a vendor in the Barrens and they would've still been used, so not really relevant to this thread I think.

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So this shows your, lack of, knowledge of the game. Mages wanted bracers even at base item level because even base IL bracers were worth 125 item levels worth of stats lol also the difference between M15 bracers and base bracers were pretty insignificant(1-2% at most), it was 100% all about the on use effect. Laser beam was from rep, you increased the damage based on item level of the trinket, the punchcards inside mechagon could titanforge which increased the damage significantly.

No, it really wasn't very significant. The trinket was also only BiS for very few specs in PvE (WW, Disc for DPS). It was a decent starting trinket going into the tier for more specs, but that's about it.

[Jastall]

Once again, the argument was never "the majority of players in general".
That being said I just did a quick check and as of right now 3789 guilds have killed at least 8/10 mythic bosses.
At the very least this are roughly 75780 players, but thats only true if each of those guilds only has EXACTLY 20 raiders and this is very unlikely.
In general there are some more factors at play here, e.g. the same player could progress or raid with multiple guilds, but even including that its more likely that a mythic raid has around 22-23 active players.
Lets assume 23 so we are talking about roughly 87200 players.

Thats only the mythic raiders, not the m+ players. Ill be honest, I don't know of a way to get the complete sum of all KSM players and mythics raiders that filters the people out who do both. I think it could be done, but it would be significant effort (much more than I am willing to invest), but I don't think its really necessary.

I am not sure how many players WoW currently still has (given the general public opinion about Shadowlands I assume not as much as everyone would like to, but in the end only Blizzard knows), but I assume that 87200, while not being the majority of course, IS a significant part of the player base and we already know the real number of affected people is most likely much higher than that.

Even if the number is 200 000 or hell 300 000 players that need literally nothing from the place week 1 (which is a very generous estimate in your favor because I know 10/10 raiders that lack a slot or two still). Millions play this game so they're a minority anyway, and those players have alts that won't all be geared to the grills either.

This doesn't "affect" anyone. You don't need gear from the place, don't do it unless you want achieves/mogs/mounts which is already reason enough to do it a couple times anyway. For literally everyone else it's a boon, and the ilvl is low enough that nobody sane will be "forced" to do it at all. IIRC that was the model that Mechagon used and it was still ran for the trinket for some classes. I really wouldn't worry about the instance being dead on arrival for the vast majority of the playerbase, anyway it seems like it's have a hard mode mount just like Kara and Mechagon for players looking to push their skills for unique rewards.

Besides, you've no idea of the general public opinion of Shadowland's reception. Youtubers and their followers aren't the general public and neither are people on reddit and forums. We're all a vocal minority.

[Tradu]

And those same people who deem 226 gear useless would go ballistic if a base difficulty 5 man dropped Heroic ilvl gear that would "force" them to run it for all of one week.

I'm certain that the average ilvl across level 60 characters is far closer to 205, max 210 than 226. Only a small % of people are KSM+ runners, Mythic raiders and/or 2000+ PvP players with 226 and up gear. A non-keystone dungeon dropping Normal raid gear for those people sounds just about right to me.

Pretty much. M0s shouldn't be relevant content for characters who did the highest level of content in the previous patch. Maybe there's a trinket or better itemized piece here and there, but those are also the players who would replace those items in the first or second week of the patch thanks to M+.

[Magnificent Madmartegan]

Well this doesn't sound too bad for me or a big amount of players I see. I don't know where all this everybody is 226 is coming from. My highest ilvl character is 211. I have 10 lvl 60's, working on my last two classes (Demon Hunter/Monk). 3 of them are just at or barely over 200. Most of the others are in the 194-198 range. Yes you can use valor to upgrade gear, but to get any of it above 6/12 you need to have completed each dungeon at a mythic +5 or higher. I dont' even know if that allows you to level it all the way to 12/12 (I have a few pieces that are 7/12 or 9/12, and those I believe said I have to have all dungeons at a +10 or higher completed). The gear that is 6/12 is only ilvl 200, so even if you've done every dungeon at a +5, you still would need to gather enough valor to raise them to the 9/12 range, which is still below 226, so how would "most" people be at 226 if there's still plenty of them barely getting to the +5 range?

[LordVargK]

If you make the megadungeon too hard, people will complain.
If you make the megadungeon loot too good, people will complain.
If you make the megadungeon accessible and good for alts/new players, the wannabe elitists will complain.
If you make the megadungeon only really reward the mounts and be a challenge without "good epix", people will complain.

Honestly - Blizzard can't win on this one ...

I mean... They could just release it in heroic AND mythic without waiting half a year to do so... That wouls please everyone: alts catch up in heroic, and mains get (smaller) upgrades jn mythic.
M+ can be released a patch later, but why withhold heroic until noone cares anymore?

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For who? 95 percent of the player base? No it's dead for 5%. Almost everyone can get rewards from it on release.

Not to dismiss your 5% claim, but if many of my guildmates have 220+ gear by now (and we barely killed hc denathrius and struggle with a second kill) then I can only assume that actually good players have that kind of gear as well. And that's probably (hopefully) more than 5%.
That's the problem: Anyone who does m+ is already close to 226, while those that only raid will not set foot into the new dungeon anyways. Why would they start doing harder dungeon content now, when they ignored it before?

[Zyky]

No, it really wasn't very significant. The trinket was also only BiS for very few specs in PvE (WW, Disc for DPS). It was a decent starting trinket going into the tier for more specs, but that's about it.

It really was significant lol also you're quoting the middle of a conversation without reading the whole thing, I specifically mentioned it being BiS for EVERYONE in PVP. If you're going to butt into the middle of a conversation at least read the entire conversation.

[Tradu]

It really was significant lol also you're quoting the middle of a conversation without reading the whole thing, I specifically mentioned it being BiS for EVERYONE in PVP. If you're going to butt into the middle of a conversation at least read the entire conversation.

I did read it, which is why I specified PvE. PvP is no longer a consideration because of the trinket 2set.

[Shedaar]

We already are in the longest content draught for a first patch ever and it will still take a while for 9.1 to arrive. When it finally arrives, one of the big features will be completely meaningless for many main characters, because it offers no upgrades for them.
Why exclude a large portion of the playerbase from this content? It's not like the alternatives are abundant.

isn't like 8 dungeons of upgradeable's enough?
this will be great catch up for ppl i assume (alts)

[Razion]

Just to clear up song things: mega dungeons normally had a weekly loot lockout. You can hardly call playing 1 dungeon a week for 2 weeks a grind, no matter what.
I also never claimed the people who are 226 now (or pretty close to it) are the majority, but they are a large part of the playerbase.

Last but not least: is it really good design of all content except raiding is designed for alts?
IMO all content should be foremost designed for mains. Implications for alts can and should be considered of course, but not as the main focus.

Doing Torghast every week is considered a grind to some. So is continuing to grind raids beyond progression to get more loot. Any content you do beyond past an initial completion is a grind. Completing the dungeon more than once, is a grind. You grind M+, you grind Mega Dungeons of special loot quality. In context of all other grinds in the game, where you repeat a specific thing you've already done, to get a reward, that is grinding. You may not personally think it's a cumbersome grind, but that's a personal take and not everyone will agree with you.

Original post claims "many mains" will see Tazavesh dead on arrival. Only the higher geared audience. This isn't most of the playerbase, it isn't the majority, it isn't many. It's the minority, it's strictly not as many relative to the rest of the playerbase.

All content can ideally have multiple difficulty levels so it can appeal to everyone of all skill types. Casual content, lower skilled content, hits a majority of the playerbase. And generally speaking, Mythic Raiding is for people who are looking for a challenge or higher rewards because that's what makes it different from the other difficulties. The Mega-Dungeon, as catch-up, is best suited for a majority who would ideally use it as catch-up, as this is what the gear level is currently aimed at. If the gear in Tazavesh is meant to be a reward incentive for Mythic Raiders, then the item level didn't hit the mark and should have been higher to make them want to progress it -- but I don't think that's what Tazavesh is aiming for.

[Accendor]

Even if the number is 200 000 or hell 300 000 players that need literally nothing from the place week 1 (which is a very generous estimate in your favor because I know 10/10 raiders that lack a slot or two still). Millions play this game so they're a minority anyway, and those players have alts that won't all be geared to the grills either.

This doesn't "affect" anyone. You don't need gear from the place, don't do it unless you want achieves/mogs/mounts which is already reason enough to do it a couple times anyway. For literally everyone else it's a boon, and the ilvl is low enough that nobody sane will be "forced" to do it at all. IIRC that was the model that Mechagon used and it was still ran for the trinket for some classes. I really wouldn't worry about the instance being dead on arrival for the vast majority of the playerbase, anyway it seems like it's have a hard mode mount just like Kara and Mechagon for players looking to push their skills for unique rewards.

Besides, you've no idea of the general public opinion of Shadowland's reception. Youtubers and their followers aren't the general public and neither are people on reddit and forums. We're all a vocal minority.

1. "Millions play this game" - I don't know man. They usually do when a new expansion is released and for a month after a new patch comes out, but after that... I think assuming we have multiple millions of players still is a risky assumption. Again, only Blizzard knows, but lets be real here: Right now (and even with 9.1) there are playing considerably less people than when SL launched. At that point in time its fair to speak of "millions of people"

2. Look, if all forums and social media are overwhelmingly negative, its really weird to assume I would not know the public opinion. I am not saying everyone should hate Shadowlands, hell, I actually dislike it for completely different reasons than (from what I understand) most other people, but in the end this is not really the point the point here. No matter how many players you have, screwing even 100k over FOR NO REASON just doesn't make sense.
Thats the point here, I do not want to take anything away from anybody. Why would I? But simply either make the gear a higher base item level (e.g. 233) or make it possible to upgrade to 233 would hurt _nobody_. You can even increase the base item level of the new normal raid to 233 to make it even.

There is literally no reason for you to be against it or for Blizzard not to do it.

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Doing Torghast every week is considered a grind to some. So is continuing to grind raids beyond progression to get more loot. Any content you do beyond past an initial completion is a grind. Completing the dungeon more than once, is a grind. You grind M+, you grind Mega Dungeons of special loot quality. In context of all other grinds in the game, where you repeat a specific thing you've already done, to get a reward, that is grinding. You may not personally think it's a cumbersome grind, but that's a personal take and not everyone will agree with you.

Yeah but thats not really up for debate tbh. I get where you are coming from, but playing a dungeon twice can in no world be considered a grind. The word is used very inflationary either way, but whatever. Not really the point.

Original post claims "many mains" will see Tazavesh dead on arrival. Only the higher geared audience. This isn't most of the playerbase, it isn't the majority, it isn't many. It's the minority, it's strictly not as many relative to the rest of the playerbase.

As I stated before, its at least 100k people, most likely WAY more. While you may be right that this is not the majority (... which I never claimed) its still "many".
Its even "many" if you compare it to the amount of people who are CURRENTLY playing. No, I do not want to say "WoW is dying" or something like that, but I think its clear to everybody that right now (and even with 9.1) much less people are playing than with 9.0/SL launch.
In the end its just semantics, if that number is "a minority, not worth considering" then I don't know what to say. BUT, this bringt me to the next point:

All content can ideally have multiple difficulty levels so it can appeal to everyone of all skill types. Casual content, lower skilled content, hits a majority of the playerbase. And generally speaking, Mythic Raiding is for people who are looking for a challenge or higher rewards because that's what makes it different from the other difficulties. The Mega-Dungeon, as catch-up, is best suited for a majority who would ideally use it as catch-up, as this is what the gear level is currently aimed at. If the gear in Tazavesh is meant to be a reward incentive for Mythic Raiders, then the item level didn't hit the mark and should have been higher to make them want to progress it -- but I don't think that's what Tazavesh is aiming for.

While you are right with that, the question is still why it has to be that way. Right now the only thing that the change or the general reward structure does is to exclude a certain play group simply because. More "casual" players that have not that high itemlevel right now for whatever reason or alts do not have an advantage from the loot being 226 compared to e.g. 233. On the contrary, it even is a slight disadvantage for them too.

This brings me to my question to you: Why exactly are you arguing against something that in the worst case is bad for everyone (for some people more than for others) or even in the best case bad for some people but still not good for others?

[tomten]

lots of words

If you really are a raider, why do you even care about normal ilvl loot?
Or are you going back to before SL where everyone (read you) were screwed over by the "low" ilvl of m+?

You're the type of person who will complain no matter what. If they made it on par with mythic ilvl damnation you'd complain you are "forced" to farm it.
And the answer is the same as before... It has to be this way. Raise the ilvl? Screw over other, more important game modes, raise the raid ilvl to compensate just brings you back to square one.

Or would you prefer the dungeon be a mandatory pre raid gearing for damnation? No? Ok then....

And your stupid number game, yes, less people play the game then on launch, the people quitting the most are those who are done months ago lol.
So in reality, its less geared people staying around and more low geared people staying around. So your 100k number is probably closer to 25k right now. Making your argument even more flat.
Now take a look at normal and heroic raiding. They have 10 times more people? Figures.

[Alcsaar]

I doubt many would say that Shadowlands is worse than BfA but I feel like this is by far the most confusing and senselessly designed expansion yet. There's been so much potentially enjoyable content this expansion completely killed by either a lack of a reward or a really bad reward system.

I've given up trying to figure out their thought process because I'm convinced it doesn't actually exist at this point.

Been saying since beta that SL was going to be trash. Nothing makes any sense, its so fucking random, and the only thing that would have made it interesting and fresh would have been a necromancer class, which should have been released.

Def is pretty equivalent with BFA in terms of bad expacs

[thunderdragon2]

We already are in the longest content draught for a first patch ever and it will still take a while for 9.1 to arrive. When it finally arrives, one of the big features will be completely meaningless for many main characters, because it offers no upgrades for them.
Why exclude a large portion of the playerbase from this content? It's not like the alternatives are abundant.

question, what item level is available form there? as my lowest toon currently is 216 and increasing slowly

[Jastall]

There is literally no reason for you to be against it or for Blizzard not to do it.

You've been given plenty of reasons by plenty of people. You just skirted them because those reasons don't apply to you and your view of the playerbase- and that's really a you problem. For example you're failing to learn from history if you think making the gear 233, even via upgrades, won't cause lots of gnashing of teeth from people thinking they're forced to do it. Mechagon released at the exact same relative ilvl and it was totally fine. Tazavesh will release at a Normal-equivalent ilvl and it'll be totally fine.

Saving players from themselves is something Blizzard must do, and this is an example of that.

[thunderdragon2]

You've been given plenty of reasons by plenty of people. You just skirted them because those reasons don't apply to you and your view of the playerbase- and that's really a you problem. For example you're failing to learn from history if you think making the gear 233, even via upgrades, won't cause lots of gnashing of teeth from people thinking they're forced to do it. Mechagon released at the exact same relative ilvl and it was totally fine. Tazavesh will release at a Normal-equivalent ilvl and it'll be totally fine.

Saving players from themselves is something Blizzard must do, and this is an example of that.

that is true but its also true that blizz should just give up what we want some times