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  1. #61
    Far from it - levelling is the best part, it is the only non repetitive part of the game. They need to expand on it.

    The things that are tired are the repetitive things like raiding.

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  2. #62
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    So how do you propose power and secondary stat resets each expansion? Right now the amount of stat needed to get 1% increases per level which is how they do it. Do we all have our gear turned back into baseline greens each launch day and re-earn our way back up?
    I dunno, I like levelling. But the general thing I am seeing now is people wanna rush past the leveling phase and get to the end content. The way people level these days makes me think the structure of levelling may need to change if people are just going to use it as something to whizz past and not immerse themselves in. I don't have the solution, thats why I brought it up for discussion
    Last edited by Orby; 2021-06-07 at 08:03 AM.

  3. #63
    Immortal sam86's Avatar
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    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  4. #64
    No it's not. Most MMORPGs use a rule set from D&D, leveling is a core part of RPGs for the past 5 decades.

    Don't like leveling? Play something else... there's loads of action oriented games at your disposal that don't involve leveling.
    Last edited by Daedius; 2021-06-07 at 08:07 AM.

  5. #65
    Leveling itself? No.

    Leveling followed by a bait and switch to an entirely different game dynamic at level cap: Yes.

    WoW is probably the worst for this, since leveling serves almost no purpose at all. Power increases specific to an expansion could be simply and easily replaced by unlocking them through story progression rather than artificial level increases. The end-game power progression mechanics could then be implemented from the moment you start the expansion instead of wasting dev and player time on a pointless "leveling" experience.

    The problem is that most MMOs follow the same formula without actually thinking about WHY they're doing it. Levels themselves could serve much more of a purpose than just an artificial mark of where you're at in the story progression of zones. They could serve as lateral progression to unlock new variations on existing skills. "End game" gameplay could instead be the entirety of the game from the beginning.

    Levels should be an integral part of the end-game systems, not a barrier you have to deal with before even beginning those systems.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    People bring up the "It's an RPG" thing a lot, but grinding for levels specifically as a gating process is pretty unique to MMOs.
    and people bringing "its an RPG" thing doesnt mention gating at all (even though no, MMOs are not first or only one doing that by far), just that leveling is a part of RPGs since their begining, and that is true...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    The concept of "leveling" is not a requisite for something being an RPG.
    it kinda is, you increase your level and/or stats to be able to use better gear and fight stronger oponents, thats kinda core of RPG...

  7. #67
    Bloodsail Admiral Pakheth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    There are more people that buy the expansion pack and level up a character then get bored in endgame and stop playing than people that are all about the end game experience.

    On the other hand I understand that there are a lot of players that hate leveling and just want to go straight to end game, there are also a lot of people that don't like the idea of grouping up but they want gear progression so what do you say to them?. You say tough it out and earn the gear through the grind or leave, welcome to the trades we make in an mmo.

    As for immersion; if you want immersion, watch a movie or cinematic or play a single player game because any long grind in an mmo or killing a boss after 100 attempts or pretty much any multi player game where people can be trolls or have a unique modern personality breaks immersion.
    This. All of this.

  8. #68
    It's old and tired because WoW is old and tired what applies to WoW does not apply to the genre.

  9. #69
    I actually like leveling in WoW - as a system - and i want to see it expanded through next expansions and so on.

    Basically, you have a small common intro for learning the basics. Then all legacy content (old expansions and such) are part of a common leveling system where you can choose your adventure and they'll bring you through the middle part, where you learn your class tooltkit and doesn't take much time. Then there is current expansion - the last X levels are the mean to tell the story/make your character learn the new expansion systems and at max level endgame start. Once new expansion hits, current becomes legacy, everyone is shrunk back to level current-something and the story goes on.

    Leveling is a good method to make players go through simpler tasks that give you the overall basics of your character and base systems. The "real game" starts after leveling. I'm not a fan of infinite leveling because it devalues the whole journey and tends to become a mindless grinding that's either useless or way too important over the long run.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  10. #70
    There are people who buy the game for the leveling and story that comes with it... just as if it were a singleplayer game.

    The real problem is people who justify leveling as a "tutorial"... no tutorial is weeks long, not even hours long.

  11. #71
    MMO's established this "endgame loop" of dailies, weeklies, dungeons and raiding which starts only when you hit max level.

    Everything prior to this becomes 100% obsolete.

  12. #72
    Removing fantasy from a fantasy game? Sure, what could go wrong.

  13. #73
    I have really enjoyed the leveling experience in shadowlands. I have really enjoyed being able to choose which expansions to level in. There are some things I would add to it. I would put in a queue that allowed you to queue for every dungeon from every expansion. I would allow players to choose what expansions they want to quest in and which ones they want to dungeon in separately.

  14. #74
    I actually think leveling needs to take waaaaaay longer as it was an integral part of the genre and late game needs to be structured around things that you did in your leveling anyway but cooler.
    The only thing that needs to go from MMOs is the zoomer gogogogogogogogo attitude that is ruining this genre even if it means that the genre becomes a niche again for a smaller audience.
    Last edited by Delever; 2021-06-07 at 06:58 PM.

  15. #75
    No. Leveling is a pillar of MMORPGs.

    Retail wow sadly made into a farce. The reason people like it is because you get constantly a little bit stronger over a long period of time.

    Now you just rush through completly trivial content without ANY challenge whatsoever for even the biggest noob ever created.
    I just leveled TBC. And i leveled SL a few times.
    There are WORLDS of difference in engagement. I talk to people. There are hard walls i cannot get voer without finding others to help me. I actually have to talk to people and not just click a button to be auto invited into a group who is doing that rare/elite just leave again without ever talking or seeing the player again. I can enter everything the moment i see it. There are no keys or anything in that regard.

    TBC world with SL voiceacting and graphics would be my dream. Hell i LOVE attunments. They are so fun. There are a bunch more dungeons than than retail has. And despite them sharing assets they are way more interesting to run than any of the SL ones... partly because you know you have to run them to DEATH for the entirety of the expansion. 8 dungeons. 2 Years at least. Horrible. YOu would think with them making the dungeons last longer they would bring more... but they don't. Just one tube after another in another color scheme you mass pull through and never talk to anyone.

    There is nothing in leveling retail right now you need or get. So yeah. They could just get rid of it entirely and only make progression horizontal. Not in classic though.
    But if you get rid of it it isn't a MMORPG anymore imho. Just another loot grinder. They can add lootboxes then to for all i care.

  16. #76
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    This is clearly from the POV of someone who is experienced with MMOs. I've been getting my girlfriend into FFXIV and the leveling experience is absolutely essential for her. The slow drip feed of abilities allows her to get comfortable with an ability before she has to learn what the next one does and with leveling you usually have a steady increase in difficulty and complexity which gives her time to get acclimated without becoming overwhelmed.

    It also gives the developers confidence that their players will have at least a degree of familiarity with the game and its systems when designing encounters. Also increasing in levels gives the player feedback that they are making progress.

  17. #77
    I think levelling is fine as long as it works as a way of increasing power, and not as a way of gating types of content behind a grind.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  18. #78
    Levelling new characters is possibly the only part of mmos that needs to stay.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    I actually think leveling needs to take waaaaaay longer as it was an integram part of the genre and late game needs to be structure around things that you did in your leveling anyway but cooler.
    The only thing that needs to go from MMOs is the zoomer gogogogogogogogo attitude that is ruining this genre even if it means that the genre becomes a niche again for a smaller audience.
    Strongly agree.
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  19. #79
    I don’t mind leveling, i just hate alts, leveling is fine and enjoyable but i think a main hero with the ability to class swap easily is the future.

  20. #80
    My favourite MMO was Guild Wars and all I did all day every day for years when I started playing in Factions, was PvP on PvP-only characters, but in WoW I've levelled almost every class to max once per faction, some more than that. So for me it doesn't really matter, if levelling is good I enjoy it but if I can just make a PvP character like in Guild Wars then I don't care about levelling unless I want to do PvE, but I haven't raided since TBC.

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