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  1. #81
    Dreadlord aarro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    Do you love seeing arbitrary numbers going up, or do you like questing content? Because I love (good) questing content and do it without any motivation to see numbers go up, but I hate levelling.
    I love everything about levelling for the first time in new zones. Exploring the cool things in the new zones, seeing numbers getting better, getting new gear upgrades and some quests can be really fun too but to do it over and over on different alts loses all that very fast.
    An Karanir Thanagor

  2. #82
    the whole leveling thing seems a bit off.
    i mean you got the exploration,character growth and all that stuff tied to it but nowadays the focus is on what comes after that.
    and imo they shouldn't be separated.

    let players fight other players the second they set foot in this new environment if they want. same thing with pve stuff.
    or you know let them enjoy this new world and all it has to offer without the pressure of endgame hanging over them.
    I had fun once, it was terrible.

  3. #83
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Are any of those RPGs? Cause I know the "WoW isn't even an RPG anymore cause they've removed so many RPG features!" Sounds to me like you're describing MOBAs and other arena type games.
    ESO and both GW games come to mind.

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  4. #84
    I think there's still a space for leveling in MMO's.

    On a purely mechanical level, it functions as a class tutorial by slowly introducing gameplay elements and systems in a way where new players aren't going to be frontloaded with information and can slowly familiarise themselves with the game and the systems at a managable pace. Done well, you can introduce mechanics and abilities and have the leveling experience give players the chance to get comfortable with the ideas before asking them to incorporate new ones.

    The end product should be max level players who are comfortable and competant at playing their chosen class.

    Consider the fighting game genre as an example of the opposite end of the spectrum. There, you're given all the tools right from the off and it can often be overwhelming for new players to get into as a result. Its why defaulting to button bashing and hoping for the best is the go-to stratergy for new players to the genre. If they'd take a leaf out of the MMO book, they could start off the player with basic punches and kicks, move on to special moves, combos etc and slowly graduate them all the way to competant players.

    The concept is completely fine, but it's got to be delivered with purpose and intentionality. Just tacking on a leveling system to give players a treadmil to run is a serious under-use of what could otherwise be a great way to teach complex game mechanics at a pace comfortable to the players.

  5. #85
    i like leveling but I don't see an alternative to it. a character's level reflects their experience with the game's systems, immersion in the game's lore, and familiarity with class mechanics. the idea is that by the time a player hits a max level, they have learned about all these things sufficiently to do more advanced content.

  6. #86
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    I now hate it, done it too often now. I tried to do a classic server and was out of that after an hour of plodding.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    All Correct. Besides imo MMO games should focus on player interactivity in its core, instead first thing hearing "MMO" that comes to my mind when i hear it is "massive boring grindfest till the endgame, straight up unfair pvp battles and repetitive content".
    Thats funny because when i hear "MMO" (and especially WoW) i think "massive boring repetetive grindfest in the endgame". Yay lets do the same dungeon twice every week for a year straight. So much fun, so much variety.
    WoW is fun until you reach the endgame, then it becomes a lazy, boring grindfest.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Thats funny because when i hear "MMO" (and especially WoW) i think "massive boring repetetive grindfest in the endgame". Yay lets do the same dungeon twice every week for a year straight. So much fun, so much variety.
    WoW is fun until you reach the endgame, then it becomes a lazy, boring grindfest.
    lvl 1-10 is the worst phase in any mmo. No buttons to press just delete braincells repeating killing boars and other dumb targets who cant fight back with 3 buttons.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    lvl 1-10 is the worst phase in any mmo. No buttons to press just delete braincells repeating killing boars and other dumb targets who cant fight back with 3 buttons.
    Yeah but you get new abilities constantly, i think thats much fun, thats the most impactful progress you make in the whole game.

  10. #90
    Leveling's fine and needs to be left alone. Both as a process that makes sense for newer players to get used to the world and game systems, as well as a gate for veteran players to bring more capped toons to the endgame.
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  11. #91
    Honestly i miss the MMO scene like UO, sure its old as dirt now, but it was fun back in the day. No levels, No Dailys, (Ok i think the professions eventually got some things you could do daily to get better chances at special hammers and such) You just went out picked what you wanted your character to be and did it. You want to be a battle mage? Sure thing! You want to be a Mule, all you bud, you wanted to be a tamer? Can i buy a dragon off you? You wanted to be a brigand and kill anyone that wasnt red? You evil bastard but i like your style
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  12. #92
    Stood in the Fire n7stormreaver's Avatar
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    Destiny has no character leveling, but in-season leveling that you do with every patch and it's doing just fine.
    Space magic.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    The old moral was, the real journey in an MMO was the levelling experience the journey to get there. Now days its all about getting there as fast as possible no one wants to level, its 'gotta get there, gotta get the gear, gotta go fast, gotta see that max level stuff'.

    You feel levelling just needs to go or be replaced with something else? You feel like the gaming sphere has just moved on?
    I don't really understand your reasoning. It'd make more sense to ask "should leveling be put again back in the center", wouldn't it ?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I don't really understand your reasoning. It'd make more sense to ask "should leveling be put again back in the center", wouldn't it ?
    What is more realistic: The game (or the whole industry) making a 180 and suddenly turning back to the days of yesteryear and changing everything or them just killing of the last vestiges of the old RPG paradigm that just doesn't fit with the rest anymore?
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

    koko := coocoo

  15. #95
    Leveling still has it's place. RPGs have pretty much always been about your character leveling up and getting stronger. However, the days of expecting players to put in 100+ hours before they get to engage in the true meat of your game is long gone.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    What is more realistic: The game (or the whole industry) making a 180 and suddenly turning back to the days of yesteryear and changing everything or them just killing of the last vestiges of the old RPG paradigm that just doesn't fit with the rest anymore?
    Are you asking what should be done or what is "realistic" (knowing that "realistic" means here just the lazy way, that isn't necessarily the one that would actually even be profitable) ? Because your title implies a question about value and interest rather than corporate profits, and as said even corporate profits can be surprising.

    Industry tends to be dumb sheeps who follow the leader. If a talented dev teams makes a successful MMO that puts leveling at the center of the experience, then the industry will do countless clones of that. For now they just copy WoW because it's been the leader the last 15 years, but it's become pretty stale and it can changes.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Are you asking what should be done or what is "realistic" (knowing that "realistic" means here just the lazy way, that isn't necessarily the one that would actually even be profitable) ? Because your title implies a question about value and interest rather than corporate profits, and as said even corporate profits can be surprising.
    I have literally no idea what you are talking about. My title? I'm not the OP.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

    koko := coocoo

  18. #98
    No, leveling is an essential part of any RPG.

    Whether it's an MMORPG, table top AD&D, MUDs, or single player RPG's... if you remove the levels, improvements, etc... is it really an rpg?

    MMORPG problem is they treat lvling like an afterthought and not the main event to some extent. SWTOR 1-50 did the best lvling i've ever seen in an MMORPG, but most of the time, levels are a mean to end which is why they feel so unrewarding.

    On the flip side, to make them rewarding, they'd have to take longer to level up and it would slow the experience down for the average player who would be turned off by a slow, methodical leveling experience.

    The ebst way to do it would be something like elder scroll single player games... with different skills that you work the skills themselves up, with no cap ever and harder and harder to level so that the very idea of reaching max rank in, say, 'targeted magic attacks" is simply an impossibility. Let people into raids from day 1 and lvl 1, but make it skill based so even if you are lvl 1, you could still have 100/500 ranks in 2 handed axe for example.

    make the journey the adventure once more

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Whether it's an MMORPG, table top AD&D, MUDs, or single player RPG's... if you remove the levels, improvements, etc... is it really an rpg?
    The problem with MMORPGs is that they are not designed to end, so something finite like a leveling system doesn't make sense in the long run. I doubt there are many live D&D campaigns out there that are still stuck at level 20 and have been going for 15+ years. This is also the reason why we had various squishes so far, because the underlying structure of RPGs is fundamentally not suitable for ultra long running games that operate beyond their intended range. While you can argue that the content pacing should be different and more involved with leveling (practically what the secondary leveling mechanisms of Legion and BfA tried to achieve), at the end of the day it's still clashing with other design goals of leveling, like teaching you character, which is just no longer neccessary after having played 15 years.
    /tar Tinker-zealot /point /lol
    WoW:Shadowlands - Danuser's Divina Commedia?

    koko := coocoo

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The problem with MMORPGs is that they are not designed to end, so something finite like a leveling system doesn't make sense in the long run. I doubt there are many live D&D campaigns out there that are still stuck at level 20 and have been going for 15+ years. This is also the reason why we had various squishes so far, because the underlying structure of RPGs is fundamentally not suitable for ultra long running games that operate beyond their intended range. While you can argue that the content pacing should be different and more involved with leveling (practically what the secondary leveling mechanisms of Legion and BfA tried to achieve), at the end of the day it's still clashing with other design goals of leveling, like teaching you character, which is just no longer neccessary after having played 15 years.
    some MUDs use skills similar to Elder Scrolls games, and they have been going 30+ years without anyone hitting "cap" and people still play and level up fine.

    Leveling isn't the problem, it's the execution that nothing else but max gameplay matters in MMORPG's, that is the root of the problem.

    Imagine if it was all skilled based, rather than level, and instead of ilvl and max lvl it'd be like "LF DPS for gruuls, at least 200 ranks in primary magic and 100 in targeting magic". etc

    they could keep it going for an eternity without removing the progression experience leveling provides, letting ANYONE in at any level if they met the requirements, and would never have to squish anything down.

    Leveling isn't the problem, it's the soulless way all mmorpg's copy/paste wow's soulless leveling experience.

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