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  1. #221
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Because it’s easier
    Actually it's not easier because you're going to have to continuously balance abilities that can never be removed with constantly evolving classes. So even if you decide to completely redesign the Warrior class for example, you have to retain those relics from the technology expansion that never made sense in the Warrior class in the first place.

    It's actually far easier to balance a standalone class since it's going to operate under the same general rules as the existing classes. What you're describing here is rather alien (and frankly detrimental) to the game.

    And storywise it makes more sense that everyone benefits from the technology
    Everyone benefits from magic too. That doesn't mean that every class should permanently get 3-4 Mage or Warlock abilities.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually it's not easier because you're going to have to continuously balance abilities that can never be removed with constantly evolving classes. So even if you decide to completely redesign the Warrior class for example, you have to retain those relics from the technology expansion that never made sense in the Warrior class in the first place.

    It's actually far easier to balance a standalone class since it's going to operate under the same general rules as the existing classes. What you're describing here is rather alien (and frankly detrimental) to the game.



    Everyone benefits from magic too. That doesn't mean that every class should permanently get 3-4 Mage or Warlock abilities.
    It’s easier to balance a few abilities than an entire class

    There’s also a difference between magic and tech

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I think that ultimately it's kinda hard to do a 1 to 1 comparison between WoW and FF14 classes anyway, considering how hyper specialized FF14 classes are and will only fulfill a single role.

    I think a better benchmark isn't what's in FF14 though. The games are very different. It's what works well in WoW. I actually agree that a Tinker type class would make a great addition to the game. I'd prefer it not have something like a mech mind you, but that's totally personal preference on my part.
    The way I see tinkers working is something like:
    - Tank spec: like HotS D.Va, you are in a mech/armor with abilities to tank. If you die, instead of faceplanting, you get ejected. You have no armor, so you can't keep tanking, but you still can contribute with damage. You can "mount up" again after a CD completes (the CD is reduced out of combat and doing certain amount of damage while in combat)
    - Healer spec: something like a mix of Mercy and Ana. You can damage enemies and heal allies with your abilities (a grenade that increases regeneration to allies and slows the enemies in the area, a shoot that heals allies and damages enemies in its path). You can also deploy support bots that help you heal or buff allies in some way (attack speed, increased damaged).
    - Damage spec: like HotS Gazlowe but ranged. Deploy turrets and bot factories, plant mines

  4. #224
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    It’s easier to balance a few abilities than an entire class
    There are 52 Covenant abilities in Shadowlands. You view that as a “few”? Also we’re talking about abilities that can’t be removed because they’re taking the place of the technology class, and they are abilities that have to always be considered when designing every single spec moving forward.

    Yeah, doing a class would be easier, and wouldn’t hinder the design of the entire class system.

    There’s also a difference between magic and tech
    What’s the difference? We’re talking about abilities that benefit a class. I’m sure Warriors would highly benefit from Ice Barrier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by pacotaco View Post
    The way I see tinkers working is something like:
    - Tank spec: like HotS D.Va, you are in a mech/armor with abilities to tank. If you die, instead of faceplanting, you get ejected. You have no armor, so you can't keep tanking, but you still can contribute with damage. You can "mount up" again after a CD completes (the CD is reduced out of combat and doing certain amount of damage while in combat)
    - Healer spec: something like a mix of Mercy and Ana. You can damage enemies and heal allies with your abilities (a grenade that increases regeneration to allies and slows the enemies in the area, a shoot that heals allies and damages enemies in its path). You can also deploy support bots that help you heal or buff allies in some way (attack speed, increased damaged).
    - Damage spec: like HotS Gazlowe but ranged. Deploy turrets and bot factories, plant mines

    That’s largely how I view the class as well. However, I view mechs as its cornerstone, and present in every single spec. Mech piloting is the glue that connects Goblin, Gnome, Draenei, and Nightborne tech along with the WC3 Tinker class,

    It also gives the class a unique distinction within the class lineup.

  5. #225
    I doubt we'll get TINKERS in an expansion about going to the DRAGON ISLES.

    If such an expansion happens, a Dragon Knight type class would be far more realistic.

    Wrath, centered around death and Arthas introduced Death Knights
    MoP centered around pandaren and their culture introduced what let them defeat their Mogu slavers, Monks
    Legion centered around Illidan and the Burning Legion introduced Demon Hunters

    Classes have always been tied pretty tightly to the theme of the expansion, that is to say there's no "technically fitting," you could pull a ton of justifications out of your ass if you wanted to, like "Well obviously Tinkers would make powerful combatants and we need that in the time to come" but.. Classes fit the expansion, always have with no ifs or buts.

    And you're saying that an expansion focused, presumably, around the DRAGONflights would introduce a class based on technology? I'm sorry? What's the logic there?

    Wouldn't Tinkers make more sense in an Undermine expansion?
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-06-10 at 03:54 PM.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I doubt we'll get TINKERS in an expansion about going to the DRAGON ISLES.
    I largely agree, which is why I’m pinning Tinkers on the Lightbound invasion. I don’t see a Dragon Knight class coming, I see Dragon stuff being resigned to a covenant style system.

    This is also why I don’t see Dragon isles being next, since I can’t imagine another expansion without a new class.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-06-10 at 01:01 PM.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I largely agree, which is why I’m pinning Tinkers on the Lightbound invasion. I don’t see a Dragon Knight class coming, I see Dragon stuff being resigned to a covenant style system.

    This is also why I don’t see Dragon isles being next, since I can’t imagine another expansion without a new class.
    Why Dragon Isles no but Lightbound yes?

    Just because they use warframes? That'd be just 1 tine aspect of the lightbound. Why is that any different with the OP. I mean having Undermine being the new hub and Wrathion hiring the Tinker's Union to find the dragons isles with MOTHER'S titan tech seems like a good way to bring about tinkers.

    It all depends how the story is written. Obviously some wont like it but it's not like introducing demon hunters in MoP without any story changes.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    Dragon Isles aren't lore heavy enough to be their own expansion. You're literally talking about going from the intergalactic cosmic powers of the Shadowlands, to a few islands that may have some dragons on it that are far weaker than any threat we've already dealt with.......

    As a patch like Nazjatar, sure 100%. But, stand alone expansion absolutely not.

    Additionally, the tinker class is not coming. If they were ever going to do it, it would've been with mecha-gnomes and vulpera. It's not gonna happen. Let it go. It's a mild concept at best.
    Pandaria had no lore at all and it featured as an entire continent in MoP.
    You know when it happened? right after Deathwing: the biggest, toughest dude we probably faced in game till then. And what did we get afterwards? Sha, Mogu and Orcs as the big bad villains. So, it's not true to say it can't happen.
    Tinker, as much as i dislike this guy, is going to happen somewhen. Saying it died with Mechagnomes and Vulpera is not accurate because there's still a lot of potential out there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    Dragon Isles still seems like a massive stretch to me. It was something they build upon and abandoned back in vanilla which had one off-remark in BfA with an Island Expedition quest. I don't see Dragon Isles being more than maybe a patch, maybe something comparable to Mechagon.
    Look at what they did with the Broken Isles. In warcraft 3 it was just some night elven ruins. Blizzard managed to pull and entire expansion continent out of it. So, you better believe Dragon Isles will do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    It's clear that you have a hard-on for the tinker class. But that strong connection is NOT there. If you mention DK's to an average WoW player they immediately can associate it with the Lich King, DH and Illidan, Monk and panda land. I think you are extremely in the minority for thinking of tinkers when on the topic of the lightbound. Average Player won't make that connection, and it'd be a hard sell. Many better options
    You're absolutely right.
    He's just trying to shove it to whatever is relevant to the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I thought you were dead set on gnome and goblin exclusive Tinkers. I mean good on you for finally broadening your scope, but I certainly hope this isn't just a ham-fisted attempt to connect Tinkers to a Light-based expansion...
    It is. He's just using them for his Tinker concept. He'll do it with whatever force is out there. Death? Tinkers. Fel? Tinkers. Void? Tinkers. Life? Tinkers. Arcane? Tinkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    They are fanatics of the light, hence the name lightbound.....not mechbound. They arent advanced, as our universe had their mech suits before we ever saw them in one (legion, argus). And they're not going to really appear as aliens either since we already have a presence of mag'har and draenei on our planet. You're trying to force a connection that just isn't there, or certainly not strong enough to justify adding it to the story.
    He'll tell you the Tinker doesn't fit WoD, even though the Iron Horde adopted Goblin technology. The guy would use Murlocs as a reason for playable Tinkers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinaul View Post
    So the burning Legion is also tinkerers? I mean they had fel reavers, right?
    Apparently not, according to him, because it doesn't serve his agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    I'd like to say that there is no necessity for a class to have a tie into whatever theme the next expansion has.
    Of course it does.
    Death Knight = Wrath of the Lich King
    Monk = Mists of Pandaria
    Demon Hunter = Legion

    Do you see a disconnection?

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    No point in arguing against anti tinker people. They're either on the "no more new classes" or a different class wagon. Just be ready for the i told you so dance when 10.0 is announced.
    I'm amused because of the irony here and who you're quoting

    People wouldn't be so anti-Tinker if you actually made sense and didn't shove it down everyone's throats.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    So for example, you'll forever be a Nelf, green dragonsworn, druid.
    "Nothing lasts forever, my son" - King Terenas

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Hey man, cow's have been able to embrace tech since vanilla. What's stopping a cow learning how to pilot mechs?
    Said the guy who excluded every race from the concept but small ones. Even though not all of them are tech savvy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    When will these useless tinker posts finally die down, I wonder.
    The day moderators will realize how fanatics they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    That just leaves Tinker, Bard, and Dragonsworn.
    You really have to broaden your horizon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Well, like I said in the OP. Wrathion would locate them by combining MOTHER'S titan tech, the Tinker's Union's tech, and the draconic essences gathered in BFA to locate them since they're more likely hidden via titan tech.

    Then by right of discovery, the tinker union could be pioneers in dragon isles exploration.
    There's no connection between dragons and tinkers, whatsoever. You're just really forcing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by agentsi View Post
    I wish I could slap the stupid people who do this shit.

    Not only is it dumb, but it was also done in one of the laziest ways possible. You didn't even try to do anything with this, just pulled shit out of your ass.
    Get used to it. You're going to see it a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I doubt we'll get TINKERS in an expansion about going to the DRAGON ISLES.

    If such an expansion happens, a Dragon Knight type class would be far more realistic.

    Wrath, centered about death and Arthas introduced Death Knights
    MoP centered around pandaren and their culture introduced what let them defeat their Mogu slavers, Monks
    Legion centered around Illidan and the Burning Legion introduced Demon Hunters

    Classes have always been tied pretty tightly to the theme of the expansion, that is to say there's no "technically fitting," you could pull a ton of justifications out of your ass if you wanted to, like "Well obviously Tinkers would make powerful combatants and we need that in the time to come" but.. Classes fit the expansion, always have with no ifs or buts.

    And you're saying that an expansion focused, presumably, around the DRAGONflights would introduce a class based on technology? I'm sorry? What's the logic there?

    Wouldn't Tinkers make more sense in an Undermine expansion?
    You said it, pal.
    Though, i would advise you not to try and reason with that argument. There's no logic here, whatsoever, other than to push the Tinker to the spotlight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Why Dragon Isles no but Lightbound yes?

    Just because they use warframes? That'd be just 1 tine aspect of the lightbound. Why is that any different with the OP. I mean having Undermine being the new hub and Wrathion hiring the Tinker's Union to find the dragons isles with MOTHER'S titan tech seems like a good way to bring about tinkers.

    It all depends how the story is written. Obviously some wont like it but it's not like introducing demon hunters in MoP without any story changes.
    Dude, i can't...
    It is too orchestrated.
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  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Why Dragon Isles no but Lightbound yes?

    Just because they use warframes? That'd be just 1 tine aspect of the lightbound. Why is that any different with the OP. I mean having Undermine being the new hub and Wrathion hiring the Tinker's Union to find the dragons isles with MOTHER'S titan tech seems like a good way to bring about tinkers.

    It all depends how the story is written. Obviously some wont like it but it's not like introducing demon hunters in MoP without any story changes.
    I mean, that storyline could work as well. I have seen rumors that the mechanical dragon pet is a hint that the next expansion revolves around dragons and robots, so who knows.

    I simply think an expansion revolving around an alien technological threat would be a more fitting for the introduction of a technology class. Especially given that such a class would be a likely merge of Titan and Naaru technologies.

  10. #230
    Yeah, we're going from Life & Death to Dragons & Robots. I can totally see that.
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  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Of course it does.
    Death Knight = Wrath of the Lich King
    Monk = Mists of Pandaria
    Demon Hunter = Legion

    Do you see a disconnection?
    That does not prove a necessity by any means. All it does is show a trend.

    Remember we had the runemaster concept as a runner-up for Wrath... and runemasters, as we know them, don't really match the expansion's theme.
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  12. #232
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    It is. He's just using them for his Tinker concept. He'll do it with whatever force is out there. Death? Tinkers. Fel? Tinkers. Void? Tinkers. Life? Tinkers. Arcane? Tinkers.
    I'm not the one making connections between technology, Tinkers, and the Lightbound, that would be Blizzard. It is Blizzard who purposely designed the Draenei warframes to visually and mechanically resemble the mechs piloted by Goblins and Gnomes. It is Blizzard who made LF Artificers pretty much Mekgineers who could build mechs. It is Blizzard who consistently reinforced the notion that piloting mechs are a large part of Goblin and Gnome society and directly tied that to the Tinker as well as Draenei and the Lightbound. Given the evidence, it would seem unlikely that Blizzard would simply create a Goblin/Gnome centric Tinker, and instead would combine their concepts into one design; a class design that merges Goblin/Gnome/Mechagnome/Naaru-Draenei/Nightborne (possibly)/Titan-Azerite/Dwarven/Tinker concepts together.

    With a class like that, it would make sense to introduce it in an expansion where the chief antagonists are utilizing advanced alien technology.

    Per your argument, technology IS a counter to magic. So yeah, you could theoretically insert a technology class into any thematic expansion. It would appear though that Blizzard wants their new classes to have stronger ties to an expansion beyond simply being a counterpoint.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-06-10 at 03:23 PM.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That does not prove a necessity by any means. All it does is show a trend.

    Remember we had the runemaster concept as a runner-up for Wrath... and runemasters, as we know them, don't really match the expansion's theme.
    *Sigh*

    Not again....

    Eventual additions, my friend, is what i'm talking about.


    Update:

    As to the guy above, do you remember how you've argued with me over 100 pages saying Draenei are too big to be Tinkers and use a mech suit? yea... that.
    Suddenly, when it suits you and your agenda, Draenei are absolutely fitting the Tinker concept you have, even though nothing really changed since you argued with me in terms of the race. I see it as hyprocrisy.

    I'll say it once and for all. Light has nothing to do with the Tinker technology, which is absolutely technological. Suddenly jumping on the Light bandwagon is like jumping on the Arcane or Fel technology the Burning Legion and elves use. It just seems like a failed attempt to insert the Tinker to whatever is out there.

    As i do not wish to get into a discussion with you, do not reply to this comment.
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  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post

    As to the guy above, do you remember how you've argued with me over 100 pages saying Draenei are too big to be Tinkers and use a mech suit? yea... that.
    Suddenly, when it suits you and your agenda, Draenei are absolutely fitting the Tinker concept you have, even though nothing really changed since you argued with me in terms of the race. I see it as hyprocrisy.
    You view someone changing their mind about an old argument as hypocrisy?

    And btw, I didn't say they fit the Tinker concept, I said they fit the concept of a technology-based class that uses mechs.

    I'll say it once and for all. Light has nothing to do with the Tinker technology, which is absolutely technological....


  15. #235
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    *Sigh*

    Not again....

    Eventual additions, my friend, is what i'm talking about.
    Again, that in no way, shape or form proves a "necessity". All it does is showcase a perceived pattern that, once again, in no way shape or form "proves a necessity" for future classes.
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  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That does not prove a necessity by any means. All it does is show a trend.

    Remember we had the runemaster concept as a runner-up for Wrath... and runemasters, as we know them, don't really match the expansion's theme.
    Even then the Vrykull had runemasters, so it was still a closer relation than robots and dragons lmao, least until we see what the story will be like.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  17. #237
    The only thing that is accurate about this discussion is that the next expansion is Dragon Isles. Everything else isn't happening.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by gleepot View Post
    The only thing that is accurate about this discussion is that the next expansion is Dragon Isles. Everything else isn't happening.
    Okay, so how do YOU think wrathion will locate the dragon isles if you're convinced against the OP.


    Lets take a step back from tinkers and ask, how will the dragon isles finally be discovered if the OP is soooo farfetched?

    Like's that the heart of the OP, a method of finding the dragon isles. Perhaps MOTHER alone is enough and she doesnt need the best engineers on azeroth, perhaps she isn't. But how else can the isles be found besides those two scenarios or some lame unoriginal expedition via boats.
    Last edited by Varx; 2021-06-10 at 05:02 PM.

  19. #239
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gleepot View Post
    The only thing that is accurate about this discussion is that the next expansion is Dragon Isles. Everything else isn't happening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Lets take a step back from tinkers and ask, how will the dragon isles finally be discovered if the OP is soooo farfetched?.


    I don’t see a scenario where Blizzard doesn’t announce a new class for 10.0. No new class in 8 years would be a disaster for them.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don’t see a scenario where Blizzard doesn’t announce a new class for 10.0. No new class in 8 years would be a disaster for them.
    Exactly. Also heading straight to a light/void expansion right after SL is exhausting, we need a sorbet, like MoP after cata. Dragon Isles seems liek the perfect choice.

    So class wise, the easy answer is dragonsworn for obvious reasons. But then one could assume that dragonsworns can just easily be the next covenants. Also tinkers have been in our face since vanilla, have been a unit in warcraft 3, has representation in HoTS, and island expeditions and should have higehr priority than dragonsworn.

    Throw in the fact that the dragon isles have been hidden possibly like Uldum then you get why I thought up the OP. Also Undermine has been referenced so many times in wow and still not implemented.

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