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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, I'm not full of doo doo.
    I mean store mounts in the past have pointed towards the next expansion

    Sylverian dreamer is in ardenweald
    Fey dragon was WoD
    The inscription tiger was suramar

    The only thing is there’s usually a gap
    For example the dread wake is technically true to BfA and you could argue the steam scale was as well

    I can’t remember if the gap is 1 or 2 mounts

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fear would be the only explanation why they would do what you're describing and not create a technology-based class.




    That exists for absolutely no reason, and has no precedent in the history of WoW.



    No, you have over 50 abilities that can't be removed, has to be balanced with any evolving abilities and talents within the classes, and are thematically different than the classes they're supposed to be attached to. Again, there's a reason why Blizzard has created 3 new WoW classes but have never done what you're describing here.



    But it doesn't make sense for any WoW class to use technology when the majority of them are magic-based and have nothing in common with a tech theme. Why would a Druid use technology when they could simply learn a new spell? Wouldn't a Warlock prefer a new shadow ability over the ability to pilot a mech? It simply doesn't make sense.



    Uh, who's talking about a Light expansion? I'm talking about a Lightbound expansion where we're invaded by a technologically advanced army that utilizes technology powered by the Naaru who just happen to be holy light-based entities. The commanders in said army uses those mechs in battle. Those mechs just happen to also be used by LF Draenei and operate exactly like the mechs Goblins and Gnomes use. Further, the Tinker concept revolves around piloting a mech into combat. Not to mention technology vs technology only makes sense.

    In short, the connection is rather obvious.
    If it’s so difficult why are we seeing constant tuning passes for classes and not for soulbinds

    Another reason to do this system instead of a class is giving everyone the first permanent upgrade for the last decade and make it fit what would be the technological evolution of the world

    Yeah a mage might want a better spell but unlike tech you can’t just make a new giant spell out of nowhere

    You can however make a big bomb and teleport it to your enemy

    Oh the classes are evolving and need so much tuning and adding a simple ability of “launch a rocket at your target” is super complicated to balance over a new class with multiple specs

    “Summon a robot that heals injured targets” is so tough to balance between specs and classes I mean it’s not like we see something that is exactly the same every time


    Listen dude I get that you don’t want to see tinker as anything besides a class and that is fine that is your preference. What isn’t fine is you sperging claiming it won’t happen in any way outside of a class to the point your only argument is that you think it wouldn’t work and anyone who disagrees is wrong and blizzard is just afraid of making it a class if they did it similar to soulbinds.

  2. #262
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, you believe it was merely by chance?
    Blizzard didn't orchestrate, plan and design it that way?
    It just magically happened the last three times?
    You're blind to reality and using this 'everything can happen' argument would lead us nowhere.
    I never said "I believe it was all by chance". I simply said we do not know, so asserting either way as fact is wrong. For all we know? The actual reason those classes were picked over all the others may have nothing to do with the expansion theme. Or maybe they did. The point is, like I said: we do not know.
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  3. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    No, I'm suggesting that in the face of what is essentially an alien invasion, the races of Azeroth would combine their technology. In terns of gameplay and development, this makes sense, because you definitely have to incorporate Draenei (and possibly Nightborne) technology into a technology-based class. Essentially it would be an "all hands on deck" situation.

    Interestingly, we're kind of primed for such a situation since we have the Gnomes unified with Mechagnomes and Mechagon, we have LF Draenei and their naaru technology, we have a unified Dwarven contingent, we have access to Titan information via MOTHER, we have Titan blood as a potential fuel source (Azerite), and we have Nightborne and their magic-based technology. Finally, we have Goblins with a more stable faction leader (Gazlowe) who has a direct connection to Undermine, and is willing to work with Gnomes.

    Further, the point of WoD was not to have an army invade Azeroth and the various races dealing with an invading force disrupting the existing factions. The POINT of WoD was for us to explore an alternate Draenor and for us to meet the old leaders of the Orcs. The invasion was only an excuse for us to venture into AU Draenor.

    This is a different case altogether, because there's no reason for us to explore AU Draenor anymore, so the POINT of a Lightbound expansion is in fact the invasion of Azeroth itself.



    Again, I didn't expand this concept, Blizzard did. As many on this lovely forum liked to remind me, we have multiple races who can not only pilot mechs, but build them as well. Since the general point of the Tinker concept is piloting a mech, and we have multiple races who have the ability to build and pilot mechs, it wouldn't make sense to release a Goblin/Gnome centric Tinker class. It makes far more sense to release a technology class that incorporates multiple facets of Azerothian technology. Additionally, it makes quite a bit of sense to reveal this class when we're dealing with a high technological threat.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Agreed. Additionally the Iron Reaver was piloted by an Orc.
    Now i know you're full of crap.
    What made you change your mind all of the sudden? was it the realization that it can serve your argument for playable Tinkers? because its certainly not your love for these races.

    Plus, don't you see how you combine different aspects that have nothing to do with each other to make a case for playable Tinkers? You're just scraping off whatever is around to build a case for yourself. Light? ✓ Titan?✓ Goblins and Gnomes? ✓ conclusion? Tinker. That's just bad math.

    Also, Lightbound army does not necessarily mean Tinker. That's just your own twisted idea. Basically, when one think of countering the Light it's either by the Light itself or an opposing force - the Void. No one ever thinks of technology, no matter how much it is part of their ranks. So was the Legion's army and the Iron Horde army. It did not make a convincing case for Tinkers, because we're dealing with themes. And, for the Tinker to fit, one would expect a Goblin and Gnome themed expansion with a mechanical threat like the one shown in Chromie's vision of Mechagon.

    What's this bullcrap about WoD not being about the Iron Horde but about Draenor? It's almost always the reason to visit a place. a demonic invasion? go visit Outland/Broken Isles/Argus. An undead invasion? go to Northrend/Shadowlands.
    What if we are to visit one of the Light encased (crystallized) worlds mentioned in the Audio Drama of Legion (starring Alleria and Turalyon). What would you have to say then? Who guarantees it will take place on Azeroth? and who guarantees it won't introduce a new landmass?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I never said "I believe it was all by chance". I simply said we do not know, so asserting either way as fact is wrong. For all we know? The actual reason those classes were picked over all the others may have nothing to do with the expansion theme. Or maybe they did. The point is, like I said: we do not know.
    Once again, it would lead us nowhere. I could end this entire discussion with the claim that we basically don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like. End of discussion. See how that's a shitty argument?
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  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Once again, it would lead us nowhere. I could end this entire discussion with the claim that we basically don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like. End of discussion. See how that's a shitty argument?
    Admitting that you "don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like" would be the correct answer, but it in no way ends the discussion. In fact, it frees the discussion, because assertions of "Blizzard has to do this" or "Blizzard cannot do this" only serve to stifle and hamstring the discussion of ideas.
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  5. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Admitting that you "don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like" would be the correct answer, but it in no way ends the discussion. In fact, it frees the discussion, because assertions of "Blizzard has to do this" or "Blizzard cannot do this" only serve to stifle and hamstring the discussion of ideas.
    No, it ground it in reality because we can stray too far off with our crazy ideas.
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  6. #266
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    If it’s so difficult why are we seeing constant tuning passes for classes and not for soulbinds
    Soulbinds aren't abilities.

    Another reason to do this system instead of a class is giving everyone the first permanent upgrade for the last decade and make it fit what would be the technological evolution of the world
    So again we have a permanent, lingering legacy with technology but not any other theme we've experienced in any other expansion? Also I don't think the community at large would like WoW to permanently move into a more technological point. People tend to prefer for expansion themes to go away with the expansion itself and move on to new themes. For example, people wouldn't like a permanent undead presence in every aspect of WoW, and every class having undead abilities to remind them of the Lich King expansion.

    Yeah a mage might want a better spell but unlike tech you can’t just make a new giant spell out of nowhere
    So you're saying that Mages don't learn new spells every expansion? Wouldn't a Mage prefer to learn something like Phoenix based on the old WC3 ultimate Blood Mage spell than a tech ability that doesn't fit the theme of their class at all.....

    You can however make a big bomb and teleport it to your enemy
    ....like that ability for example.

    Oh the classes are evolving and need so much tuning and adding a simple ability of “launch a rocket at your target” is super complicated to balance over a new class with multiple specs
    You said permanent Covenant abilities, which would mean multiple abilities for each class. Are you now saying that each class would get ONE tech ability for reasons?

    Also its kind of laughable that you don't think that such an ability wouldn't be complicated to balance.

    Listen dude I get that you don’t want to see tinker as anything besides a class and that is fine that is your preference. What isn’t fine is you sperging claiming it won’t happen in any way outside of a class to the point your only argument is that you think it wouldn’t work and anyone who disagrees is wrong and blizzard is just afraid of making it a class if they did it similar to soulbinds.
    Uh, I've shown you why it won't work and why it simply doesn't make sense. If you want to believe that Blizzard would create such a convoluted mess instead of simply creating a technology class, that's your business.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Now i know you're full of crap.
    What made you change your mind all of the sudden? was it the realization that it can serve your argument for playable Tinkers? because its certainly not your love for these races.
    I changed my mind because I couldn't see how you could have a technology class based only on Goblins and Gnomes and completely ignore Draenei who are also building mechs. I also couldn't see how you could make a Goblin/Gnome centric technology class applicable to Draenei or Nightborne who utilize more magi-tech style technology.

    Plus, don't you see how you combine different aspects that have nothing to do with each other to make a case for playable Tinkers? You're just scraping off whatever is around to build a case for yourself. Light? ✓ Titan?✓ Goblins and Gnomes? ✓ conclusion? Tinker. That's just bad math.
    Uh you have LF Draenei who are building mechs and have an Artificer class who builds said mechs, and is willing to teach others how to do it. =Light/Naaru
    You have established lore stating that Azerite is used to power machines, including Shredders. Azerite is Titan blood. = Titan.
    You have Goblins, Gnomes, and Mechagnomes who have stated that they are now willing to work together. =Goblins/Gnomes.

    Anything we're missing?

    Also, Lightbound army does not necessarily mean Tinker. That's just your own twisted idea. Basically, when one think of countering the Light it's either by the Light itself or an opposing force - the Void. No one ever thinks of technology, no matter how much it is part of their ranks. So was the Legion's army and the Iron Horde army. It did not make a convincing case for Tinkers, because we're dealing with themes. And, for the Tinker to fit, one would expect a Goblin and Gnome themed expansion with a mechanical threat like the one shown in Chromie's vision of Mechagon.
    No one is thinking of technology because they're not considering that the Lightbound army is a technology-based army. Also (again) no one is making a case for Tinkers, I'm making a case for a merged technology class.

    What's this bullcrap about WoD not being about the Iron Horde but about Draenor? It's almost always the reason to visit a place. a demonic invasion? go visit Outland/Broken Isles/Argus. An undead invasion? go to Northrend/Shadowlands.
    What if we are to visit one of the Light encased (crystallized) worlds mentioned in the Audio Drama of Legion (starring Alleria and Turalyon). What would you have to say then? Who guarantees it will take place on Azeroth? and who guarantees it won't introduce a new landmass?
    Again, the point of WoD was not the Iron Horde invasion, the invasion was just a means for us to go and explore AU Draenor and meet all the dead Orc leaders. Read the WoD announcement, Blizzard stated this themselves.

    We've already visited AU Draenor, so the only purpose of a Lightbound invasion is the actual invasion itself. People want a redone Azeroth, and a massive invading force is one way to do it.

  7. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Admitting that you "don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like" would be the correct answer, but it in no way ends the discussion. In fact, it frees the discussion, because assertions of "Blizzard has to do this" or "Blizzard cannot do this" only serve to stifle and hamstring the discussion of ideas.
    Preach.

    There’s so many little rules and patterns that people have divined... it’s human nature. But just because you see a face on the moon does not mean it’s a literal face carved onto it.

    These “rules” are utterly meaningless. These asinine discussions essentially ranking the likelihood of ideas is pointless.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Preach.

    There’s so many little rules and patterns that people have divined... it’s human nature. But just because you see a face on the moon does not mean it’s a literal face carved onto it.

    These “rules” are utterly meaningless. These asinine discussions essentially ranking the likelihood of ideas is pointless.
    That’s why the discussion of “this is far more likely” originally died in another thread after hundreds of pages of 3 people arguing the same stuff refusing anything else

  9. #269
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No, it ground it in reality because we can stray too far off with our crazy ideas.
    And the "reality" is: we don't know, and Blizzard can do whatever they want.
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  10. #270
    Why are they banned all of a sudden?

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by THC BANDIT View Post
    Why are they banned all of a sudden?
    because they get very heated during discussions of tinkers

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by THC BANDIT View Post
    Why are they banned all of a sudden?
    For derailing the thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As per usual, let's drop the rolling argument about whether the Tinker (or any other class) is or isn't viable in WoW as a whole, and instead discuss the concept in the milieu of a possible Dragon Isles-centered expansion or set-piece.

  13. #273
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Soulbinds aren't abilities.
    They are abilities, though, temporary as they may be. They also may not be active abilities, but they are passive abilities. For soulbinds, for example: being Kyrian and having Pelagos as your soulbind causes your Kyrian offensive ability to increase your mastery, and allows you to extend the duration of the buff by picking up orbs you spawn. Dreamweaver, of the Night Fae covenant, gives you a "cheat death" passive. There's also the conduits themselves, which are also passive abilities, too.

    "Abilities" are not just the buttons you put on your hotkey bar. They're also the passives in your spellbook.
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  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Belluar is too busy fanning over FFXIV.
    Well most WoW content creators are. Either FF14 or some other game. Basing your business and livelihood on a sinking ship is not a good idea.

  15. #275
    It's still a convoluted package altogether.

    Tinkers don't really have any roots to Dragon Isles, even in the OP's proposed way. It's as loose a connection as having all the world's Tinkers use their technology to solve the problems of _any_ expansion. And if that were true, we could have had playable Tinkers in Shadowlands for the same reasons - and we clearly don't.

    I'm of the mindset that we should have got a class this expansion, not skipped in favour of Covenants. And if such a proposal for Tinkers would fly for Dragon Isles, I see no reason why it'd be skipped for Shadowlands when it's just as applicable.

    So I conclude that the issue itself would come from lacking any substantial connection between a Tinker and the Expansion setting. Just throwing Undermine in there as a neutral hub isn't really enough IMO.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-11 at 04:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #276
    Lost me the moment you mentioned Tinkerclass, can we just let that die

  17. #277
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lahis View Post
    Well most WoW content creators are. Either FF14 or some other game. Basing your business and livelihood on a sinking ship is not a good idea.
    Well, that is too late, FF14 already sunk their ship once, had to get a new one, and they are learning how to steer it slowly.
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  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's still a convoluted package altogether.

    Tinkers don't really have any roots to Dragon Isles, even in the OP's proposed way. It's as loose a connection as having all the world's Tinkers use their technology to solve the problems of _any_ expansion. And if that were true, we could have had playable Tinkers in Shadowlands for the same reasons - and we clearly don't.

    I'm of the mindset that we should have got a class this expansion, not skipped in favour of Covenants. And if such a proposal for Tinkers would fly for Dragon Isles, I see no reason why it'd be skipped for Shadowlands when it's just as applicable.

    So I conclude that the issue itself would come from lacking any substantial connection between a Tinker and the Expansion setting. Just throwing Undermine in there as a neutral hub isn't really enough IMO.

    But it's not as simple as you describe it. The scenario goes off of the assumption that the dragon isles are hidden via titan tech, like Uldum prior to the Cataclysm.

    IF this is the case then how does Wrathion go about finding a solution. Well he has draconic essences gathered during 8.3 and he has MOTHER with him now. Perhaps MOTHER can somehow locate the Dragon Isles by using the essences on her own. But, what if she isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.

    Maybe Undermine has some sort of technology that can give MOTHER a boost in finding the isles and creating stable transport between Undermine and the isles.

    So it's not like tech can just fix any problem from any expansion. This idea only works because of Wrathion's draconic essences, MOTHER, the isles hidden via titan tech, and the chance that MOTHER needs a boost.
    Last edited by Varx; 2021-06-11 at 04:45 PM.

  19. #279
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm of the mindset that we should have got a class this expansion, not skipped in favour of Covenants.
    I'm not sure that's the reason Blizzard "skipped" on adding a new class in Shadowlands. Legion added a class and we still got twelve different Order Halls, with their own unique 2-4 artifact weapons, upgrades, troops, table missions, followers, quest lines and rewards.
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  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Varx View Post
    But it's not as simple as you describe it. The scenario goes off of the assumption that the dragon isles are hidden via titan tech, like Uldum prior to the Cataclysm.
    And Tinkers don't formally have connections to titan tech. Dragonsworns would have just as much connection to Titan tech if we're talking about some machine that has connections between the Titans empowering the original 5 Aspects. Tinkers aren't masters of Titan Technology, and we have characters like Brann and Muradin who are able to interface with Watchers and Titan tech without any expertise in tech.

    IF this is the case then how does Wrathion go about finding a solution. Well he has draconic essences gathered during 8.3 and he has MOTHER with him now. Perhaps MOTHER can somehow locate the Dragon Isles by using the essences on her own. But, what if she isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.
    Then that's a big what if that doesn't really have anything to do with Tinkers, other than to shoehorn them in.

    I could suppose the same thing about Shadowlands. We know Bolvar has a connection to the Shadowlands and may be able to open the gateway for us to enter. But what if he isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.


    It's general enough that you could apply it to any expansion, and it's the reason why I think Blizzard isn't going to take that particular route. It doesn't actually connect Tinkers to the storyline, it just connects them to the entry-point to an otherwise completely unrelated expansion.

    What happens after the Titan tech is figured out? The rest of the expansion would still be Dragon Isles related without the need of any further assistance from the Tinkers. The Tinkers don't have any roots in a Dragon Isles setting and story, you've already proposed that this would be focused on Dragonsworn Covenants.



    Think of it this way - if the fantasy is all about playing a Tinker, then as a player I meed to clearly understand my role alongside other classes. What is my motivation for fighting for the Alliance and Horde? There's plenty of ways to tell this story, to explain this purpose.

    If you boil it down to a story mechanic of 'Well you join the Alliance and Horde because they needed you to unlock Titan Tech in Dragon Isles and make teleporters to Undermine' then it's a pretty generic and bland introduction.

    If I'm literally playing a new class because I'm a 'key' that opens up the door that leads to a place that has nothing else to do with me except 'transportation maintenance' then it's very lackluster. And the more tech you'd try to toss into the Dragon Isles to substantiate a Tinker, the more muddled the concept of Dragon Isles overall; same thing if we were applying this to Shadowlands and having Tinkers be the ones responsible for the portal between realms. Shadowlands and Dragon Isles aren't ideal locations for heavy Tech themes that can carry a Tinker's purpose beyond opening the door.

    The issue isn't using tech to fix problems, the issue is Tinkers being completely disconnected from the setting of the rest of the expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm not sure that's the reason Blizzard "skipped" on adding a new class in Shadowlands. Legion added a class and we still got twelve different Order Halls, with their own unique 2-4 artifact weapons, upgrades, troops, table missions, followers, quest lines and rewards.
    I doubt we would have had both a new class and Covenants that cover the same themes of said new class.

    Plus the devs pretty much said it themselves, that they forgoed a new class for the reasons of wanting to focus on building the world of Shadowlands. To me, that implies exploring the various Covenants.

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    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-11 at 05:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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