[Speculation] Tinker Class for 10.0 Dragon Isles

[Ielenia]

Once again, it would lead us nowhere. I could end this entire discussion with the claim that we basically don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like. End of discussion. See how that's a shitty argument?

Admitting that you "don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like" would be the correct answer, but it in no way ends the discussion. In fact, it frees the discussion, because assertions of "Blizzard has to do this" or "Blizzard cannot do this" only serve to stifle and hamstring the discussion of ideas.

[username993720]

Admitting that you "don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like" would be the correct answer, but it in no way ends the discussion. In fact, it frees the discussion, because assertions of "Blizzard has to do this" or "Blizzard cannot do this" only serve to stifle and hamstring the discussion of ideas.

No, it ground it in reality because we can stray too far off with our crazy ideas.

[Teriz]

If it’s so difficult why are we seeing constant tuning passes for classes and not for soulbinds

Soulbinds aren't abilities.

Another reason to do this system instead of a class is giving everyone the first permanent upgrade for the last decade and make it fit what would be the technological evolution of the world

So again we have a permanent, lingering legacy with technology but not any other theme we've experienced in any other expansion? Also I don't think the community at large would like WoW to permanently move into a more technological point. People tend to prefer for expansion themes to go away with the expansion itself and move on to new themes. For example, people wouldn't like a permanent undead presence in every aspect of WoW, and every class having undead abilities to remind them of the Lich King expansion.

Yeah a mage might want a better spell but unlike tech you can’t just make a new giant spell out of nowhere

So you're saying that Mages don't learn new spells every expansion? Wouldn't a Mage prefer to learn something like Phoenix based on the old WC3 ultimate Blood Mage spell than a tech ability that doesn't fit the theme of their class at all.....

You can however make a big bomb and teleport it to your enemy

....like that ability for example.

Oh the classes are evolving and need so much tuning and adding a simple ability of “launch a rocket at your target” is super complicated to balance over a new class with multiple specs

You said permanent Covenant abilities, which would mean multiple abilities for each class. Are you now saying that each class would get ONE tech ability for reasons?

Also its kind of laughable that you don't think that such an ability wouldn't be complicated to balance.

Listen dude I get that you don’t want to see tinker as anything besides a class and that is fine that is your preference. What isn’t fine is you sperging claiming it won’t happen in any way outside of a class to the point your only argument is that you think it wouldn’t work and anyone who disagrees is wrong and blizzard is just afraid of making it a class if they did it similar to soulbinds.

Uh, I've shown you why it won't work and why it simply doesn't make sense. If you want to believe that Blizzard would create such a convoluted mess instead of simply creating a technology class, that's your business.

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Now i know you're full of crap.
What made you change your mind all of the sudden? was it the realization that it can serve your argument for playable Tinkers? because its certainly not your love for these races.

I changed my mind because I couldn't see how you could have a technology class based only on Goblins and Gnomes and completely ignore Draenei who are also building mechs. I also couldn't see how you could make a Goblin/Gnome centric technology class applicable to Draenei or Nightborne who utilize more magi-tech style technology.

Plus, don't you see how you combine different aspects that have nothing to do with each other to make a case for playable Tinkers? You're just scraping off whatever is around to build a case for yourself. Light? ✓ Titan?✓ Goblins and Gnomes? ✓ conclusion? Tinker. That's just bad math.

Uh you have LF Draenei who are building mechs and have an Artificer class who builds said mechs, and is willing to teach others how to do it. =Light/Naaru
You have established lore stating that Azerite is used to power machines, including Shredders. Azerite is Titan blood. = Titan.
You have Goblins, Gnomes, and Mechagnomes who have stated that they are now willing to work together. =Goblins/Gnomes.

Anything we're missing?

Also, Lightbound army does not necessarily mean Tinker. That's just your own twisted idea. Basically, when one think of countering the Light it's either by the Light itself or an opposing force - the Void. No one ever thinks of technology, no matter how much it is part of their ranks. So was the Legion's army and the Iron Horde army. It did not make a convincing case for Tinkers, because we're dealing with themes. And, for the Tinker to fit, one would expect a Goblin and Gnome themed expansion with a mechanical threat like the one shown in Chromie's vision of Mechagon.

No one is thinking of technology because they're not considering that the Lightbound army is a technology-based army. Also (again) no one is making a case for Tinkers, I'm making a case for a merged technology class.

What's this bullcrap about WoD not being about the Iron Horde but about Draenor? It's almost always the reason to visit a place. a demonic invasion? go visit Outland/Broken Isles/Argus. An undead invasion? go to Northrend/Shadowlands.
What if we are to visit one of the Light encased (crystallized) worlds mentioned in the Audio Drama of Legion (starring Alleria and Turalyon). What would you have to say then? Who guarantees it will take place on Azeroth? and who guarantees it won't introduce a new landmass?

Again, the point of WoD was not the Iron Horde invasion, the invasion was just a means for us to go and explore AU Draenor and meet all the dead Orc leaders. Read the WoD announcement, Blizzard stated this themselves.

We've already visited AU Draenor, so the only purpose of a Lightbound invasion is the actual invasion itself. People want a redone Azeroth, and a massive invading force is one way to do it.

[draugril]

Admitting that you "don't know anything and Blizzard can do whatever they like" would be the correct answer, but it in no way ends the discussion. In fact, it frees the discussion, because assertions of "Blizzard has to do this" or "Blizzard cannot do this" only serve to stifle and hamstring the discussion of ideas.

Preach.

There’s so many little rules and patterns that people have divined... it’s human nature. But just because you see a face on the moon does not mean it’s a literal face carved onto it.

These “rules” are utterly meaningless. These asinine discussions essentially ranking the likelihood of ideas is pointless.

[Revamp Man]

Preach.

There’s so many little rules and patterns that people have divined... it’s human nature. But just because you see a face on the moon does not mean it’s a literal face carved onto it.

These “rules” are utterly meaningless. These asinine discussions essentially ranking the likelihood of ideas is pointless.

That’s why the discussion of “this is far more likely” originally died in another thread after hundreds of pages of 3 people arguing the same stuff refusing anything else

[Ielenia]

No, it ground it in reality because we can stray too far off with our crazy ideas.

And the "reality" is: we don't know, and Blizzard can do whatever they want.

[THC BANDIT]

Why are they banned all of a sudden?

[razorpax]

Why are they banned all of a sudden?

because they get very heated during discussions of tinkers

[datguy81]

Why are they banned all of a sudden?

For derailing the thread

As per usual, let's drop the rolling argument about whether the Tinker (or any other class) is or isn't viable in WoW as a whole, and instead discuss the concept in the milieu of a possible Dragon Isles-centered expansion or set-piece.

[Ielenia]

Soulbinds aren't abilities.

They are abilities, though, temporary as they may be. They also may not be active abilities, but they are passive abilities. For soulbinds, for example: being Kyrian and having Pelagos as your soulbind causes your Kyrian offensive ability to increase your mastery, and allows you to extend the duration of the buff by picking up orbs you spawn. Dreamweaver, of the Night Fae covenant, gives you a "cheat death" passive. There's also the conduits themselves, which are also passive abilities, too.

"Abilities" are not just the buttons you put on your hotkey bar. They're also the passives in your spellbook.

[Lahis]

Belluar is too busy fanning over FFXIV.

Well most WoW content creators are. Either FF14 or some other game. Basing your business and livelihood on a sinking ship is not a good idea.

[Triceron]

It's still a convoluted package altogether.

Tinkers don't really have any roots to Dragon Isles, even in the OP's proposed way. It's as loose a connection as having all the world's Tinkers use their technology to solve the problems of _any_ expansion. And if that were true, we could have had playable Tinkers in Shadowlands for the same reasons - and we clearly don't.

I'm of the mindset that we should have got a class this expansion, not skipped in favour of Covenants. And if such a proposal for Tinkers would fly for Dragon Isles, I see no reason why it'd be skipped for Shadowlands when it's just as applicable.

So I conclude that the issue itself would come from lacking any substantial connection between a Tinker and the Expansion setting. Just throwing Undermine in there as a neutral hub isn't really enough IMO.

[Romanthony]

Lost me the moment you mentioned Tinkerclass, can we just let that die

[Lochton]

Well most WoW content creators are. Either FF14 or some other game. Basing your business and livelihood on a sinking ship is not a good idea.

Well, that is too late, FF14 already sunk their ship once, had to get a new one, and they are learning how to steer it slowly.

[Varx]

It's still a convoluted package altogether.

Tinkers don't really have any roots to Dragon Isles, even in the OP's proposed way. It's as loose a connection as having all the world's Tinkers use their technology to solve the problems of _any_ expansion. And if that were true, we could have had playable Tinkers in Shadowlands for the same reasons - and we clearly don't.

I'm of the mindset that we should have got a class this expansion, not skipped in favour of Covenants. And if such a proposal for Tinkers would fly for Dragon Isles, I see no reason why it'd be skipped for Shadowlands when it's just as applicable.

So I conclude that the issue itself would come from lacking any substantial connection between a Tinker and the Expansion setting. Just throwing Undermine in there as a neutral hub isn't really enough IMO.

But it's not as simple as you describe it. The scenario goes off of the assumption that the dragon isles are hidden via titan tech, like Uldum prior to the Cataclysm.

IF this is the case then how does Wrathion go about finding a solution. Well he has draconic essences gathered during 8.3 and he has MOTHER with him now. Perhaps MOTHER can somehow locate the Dragon Isles by using the essences on her own. But, what if she isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.

Maybe Undermine has some sort of technology that can give MOTHER a boost in finding the isles and creating stable transport between Undermine and the isles.

So it's not like tech can just fix any problem from any expansion. This idea only works because of Wrathion's draconic essences, MOTHER, the isles hidden via titan tech, and the chance that MOTHER needs a boost.

[Ielenia]

I'm of the mindset that we should have got a class this expansion, not skipped in favour of Covenants.

I'm not sure that's the reason Blizzard "skipped" on adding a new class in Shadowlands. Legion added a class and we still got twelve different Order Halls, with their own unique 2-4 artifact weapons, upgrades, troops, table missions, followers, quest lines and rewards.

[Triceron]

But it's not as simple as you describe it. The scenario goes off of the assumption that the dragon isles are hidden via titan tech, like Uldum prior to the Cataclysm.

And Tinkers don't formally have connections to titan tech. Dragonsworns would have just as much connection to Titan tech if we're talking about some machine that has connections between the Titans empowering the original 5 Aspects. Tinkers aren't masters of Titan Technology, and we have characters like Brann and Muradin who are able to interface with Watchers and Titan tech without any expertise in tech.

IF this is the case then how does Wrathion go about finding a solution. Well he has draconic essences gathered during 8.3 and he has MOTHER with him now. Perhaps MOTHER can somehow locate the Dragon Isles by using the essences on her own. But, what if she isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.

Then that's a big what if that doesn't really have anything to do with Tinkers, other than to shoehorn them in.

I could suppose the same thing about Shadowlands. We know Bolvar has a connection to the Shadowlands and may be able to open the gateway for us to enter. But what if he isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.


It's general enough that you could apply it to any expansion, and it's the reason why I think Blizzard isn't going to take that particular route. It doesn't actually connect Tinkers to the storyline, it just connects them to the entry-point to an otherwise completely unrelated expansion.

What happens after the Titan tech is figured out? The rest of the expansion would still be Dragon Isles related without the need of any further assistance from the Tinkers. The Tinkers don't have any roots in a Dragon Isles setting and story, you've already proposed that this would be focused on Dragonsworn Covenants.



Think of it this way - if the fantasy is all about playing a Tinker, then as a player I meed to clearly understand my role alongside other classes. What is my motivation for fighting for the Alliance and Horde? There's plenty of ways to tell this story, to explain this purpose.

If you boil it down to a story mechanic of 'Well you join the Alliance and Horde because they needed you to unlock Titan Tech in Dragon Isles and make teleporters to Undermine' then it's a pretty generic and bland introduction.

If I'm literally playing a new class because I'm a 'key' that opens up the door that leads to a place that has nothing else to do with me except 'transportation maintenance' then it's very lackluster. And the more tech you'd try to toss into the Dragon Isles to substantiate a Tinker, the more muddled the concept of Dragon Isles overall; same thing if we were applying this to Shadowlands and having Tinkers be the ones responsible for the portal between realms. Shadowlands and Dragon Isles aren't ideal locations for heavy Tech themes that can carry a Tinker's purpose beyond opening the door.

The issue isn't using tech to fix problems, the issue is Tinkers being completely disconnected from the setting of the rest of the expansion.

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I'm not sure that's the reason Blizzard "skipped" on adding a new class in Shadowlands. Legion added a class and we still got twelve different Order Halls, with their own unique 2-4 artifact weapons, upgrades, troops, table missions, followers, quest lines and rewards.

I doubt we would have had both a new class and Covenants that cover the same themes of said new class.

Plus the devs pretty much said it themselves, that they forgoed a new class for the reasons of wanting to focus on building the world of Shadowlands. To me, that implies exploring the various Covenants.

https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2...ll-human-dwarf

[Varx]

And Tinkers don't formally have connections to titan tech. Dragonsworns would have just as much connection to Titan tech if we're talking about some machine that has connections between the Titans empowering the original 5 Aspects. Tinkers aren't masters of Titan Technology, and we have characters like Brann and Muradin who are able to interface with Watchers and Titan tech without any expertise in tech.



Then that's a big what if that doesn't really have anything to do with Tinkers, other than to shoehorn them in.

I could suppose the same thing about Shadowlands. We know Bolvar has a connection to the Shadowlands and may be able to open the gateway for us to enter. But what if he isn't enough? That's where Undermine and the Tinker's Union could come in.


It's general enough that you could apply it to any expansion, and it's the reason why I think Blizzard isn't going to take that particular route. It doesn't actually connect Tinkers to the storyline, it just connects them to the entry-point to an otherwise completely unrelated expansion.

What happens after the Titan tech is figured out? The rest of the expansion would still be Dragon Isles related without the need of any further assistance from the Tinkers. The Tinkers don't have any roots in a Dragon Isles setting and story, you've already proposed that this would be focused on Dragonsworn Covenants.



Think of it this way - if the fantasy is all about playing a Tinker, then as a player I meed to clearly understand my role alongside other classes. What is my motivation for fighting for the Alliance and Horde? There's plenty of ways to tell this story, to explain this purpose.

If you boil it down to a story mechanic of 'Well you join the Alliance and Horde because they needed you to unlock Titan Tech in Dragon Isles and make teleporters to Undermine' then it's a pretty generic and bland introduction.

If I'm literally playing a new class because I'm a 'key' that opens up the door that leads to a place that has nothing else to do with me except 'transportation maintenance' then it's very lackluster. And the more tech you'd try to toss into the Dragon Isles to substantiate a Tinker, the more muddled the concept of Dragon Isles overall; same thing if we were applying this to Shadowlands and having Tinkers be the ones responsible for the portal between realms. Shadowlands and Dragon Isles aren't ideal locations for heavy Tech themes that can carry a Tinker's purpose beyond opening the door.

The issue isn't using tech to fix problems, the issue is Tinkers being completely disconnected from the setting of the rest of the expansion.

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I doubt we would have had both a new class and Covenants that cover the same themes of said new class.

Plus the devs pretty much said it themselves, that they forgo a new class for the reasons of wanting to focus on building the world of Shadowlands. To me, that implies exploring the various Covenants.

https://www.polygon.com/interviews/2...ll-human-dwarf

But this is Blizzard we're talking about. They're constantly shoehorning or pulling lore out of their brown box. Look at Legion, the final invasion was caused by a time traveling Gul'dan instead of the Legion just coming themselves. Hell I say Mieve releasing the DH's at the start of legion was a shoehorn against her own nature and beliefs just to intro a new class since we've done just fine against the Legion without them.

[Triceron]

But this is Blizzard we're talking about. They're constantly shoehorning or pulling lore out of their brown box. Look at Legion, the final invasion was caused by a time traveling Gul'dan instead of the Legion just coming themselves. Hell I say Mieve releasing the DH's at the start of legion was a shoehorn against her own nature and beliefs just to intro a new class since we've done just fine against the Legion without them.

So why not Tinkers in Shadowlands?

I mean, the class was totally in the cards to follow up after BFA. We had Mother, we had Mechagon and Mechagnomes, we had Gazlowe even present at Icecrown.

All they had to do was write in Bolvar lacking power to open the portal to Shadowlands, and shoehorning Tinkers in to fill that gap. God knows Teriz has been making the argument that Tinkers fit any expansion for ages, so if we're talking about shoehorning then is there any reason Blizzard couldn't have done it?

And their answer to us was that they implied that they want a new class to fit an expansion's setting and story as well as Demon Hunters did for Legion. And I think Tinkers don't fit either Shadowlands or Dragon Isles when we consider what the root setting and story of these locations would actually be about.

Of course I'm not discounting the possibility of Blizzard actually doing it, I'm just making a point that so far this suggestion doesn't convince me as someone who wants to play as Tinker that I'd have much worth or purpose in a place called the Dragon Isles.

I'd much rather have Tinkers be introduced in a setting that makes sense for them. I'd much rather have Dragon Isles simply focus on the much-needed Dragon Lore that's been missing since Cataclysm. While I don't think either are mutually exclusive, I don't consider Tinkers to be very beneficial in Dragon Isles any more than they would be beneficial for Shadowlands.

[Fantazma]

Imagine a xpac where I'll have to listen to the voice of the M.O.T.H.E.R. the same amount of times I had to listen to Bwonsamdi on BFA.
God, save me from this.
If the next xpac is anything remotely linked to mechagon, gnonos, goblins, ... (and possibly with xmogs full of lamps and screws) it will be the first time in 15 years that I've unsub.