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  1. #121
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    It's clear that you have a hard-on for the tinker class. But that strong connection is NOT there. If you mention DK's to an average WoW player they immediately can associate it with the Lich King, DH and Illidan, Monk and panda land. I think you are extremely in the minority for thinking of tinkers when on the topic of the lightbound. Average Player won't make that connection, and it'd be a hard sell. Many better options
    I would love to meet a WoW player who would say a technology class has no connection to an expansion where the antagonists are technologically advanced aliens.

  2. #122
    I find dragon isles higly unlikely due northrend having the sanctuaries for all aspects and most of the flights have their own places around azeroth.
    WoW has hit a serious power creep problem. You are fighting a universal threath that shakes the foundations of death itself and the next thing would be back on some azerothian backwater with no other hook than "yo theres dragons there"

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I would love to meet a WoW player who would say a technology class has no connection to an expansion where the antagonists are technologically advanced aliens.
    They are fanatics of the light, hence the name lightbound.....not mechbound. They arent advanced, as our universe had their mech suits before we ever saw them in one (legion, argus). And they're not going to really appear as aliens either since we already have a presence of mag'har and draenei on our planet. You're trying to force a connection that just isn't there, or certainly not strong enough to justify adding it to the story.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I thought you were dead set on gnome and goblin exclusive Tinkers. I mean good on you for finally broadening your scope, but I certainly hope this isn't just a ham-fisted attempt to connect Tinkers to a Light-based expansion...
    Well it's a combination of things. The "Light-based expansion" revolves around a technologically advanced invading force. In addition, Blizzard has really been pushing the notion that LF Draenei utilize mechs on the same level as Gnomes and Goblins. I think looked at our first encounter with the Lightbound, and I noticed Exarch Orelis, who also piloted a mech, and used the same general mechanics as the Gnome and Goblin mech pilots. I thought that was interesting. I simply don't see how you can bring in a technology class and NOT include LF Draenei artificers into the mix, there's simply too much lore there.

    Finally I began to think of how a Tinker inclusion would actually work, and if it works along the same lines as the Monk class, Blizzard would merge internal and external concepts into the general class. One big issue I had with multiracial Tinkers was how would Blizzard make a technology assets that reflect the uniqueness of each race. I eventually came to a conclusion that that simply wouldn't do that since they have to make new technology assets for a class anyway. Also you had the magitech of the Draenei vs. the steam punk of the Goblins and a mix with Gnomes. So which makes more sense? Creating all new art assets for each "Tinker" race, or create a unified technology concept that can be used by multiple races? Clearly it makes more sense to simply unify the concept; Merge Goblin/Gnome/Draenei/Nightborne concepts into a single technology class.

    Thus, I simply can't see a Goblin/Gnome centric class, but instead a class that merges technological concepts from a variety of sources. That would in turn facilitate a class that can be of multiple races outside of Gnomes and Goblins, which handles people's personal issues with the short races.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    I find dragon isles higly unlikely due northrend having the sanctuaries for all aspects and most of the flights have their own places around azeroth.
    WoW has hit a serious power creep problem. You are fighting a universal threath that shakes the foundations of death itself and the next thing would be back on some azerothian backwater with no other hook than "yo theres dragons there"
    ^ this /10char

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    I find dragon isles higly unlikely due northrend having the sanctuaries for all aspects and most of the flights have their own places around azeroth.
    WoW has hit a serious power creep problem. You are fighting a universal threath that shakes the foundations of death itself and the next thing would be back on some azerothian backwater with no other hook than "yo theres dragons there"
    It's not just about finding Dragons there, it's about the potential of restoring the power to the Aspects and the potential of removing the sterility that prevents new Dragons (from the Aspect Dragonflights) from being created.

    The Dragons are sterile, the Aspects have lost much of their power since Cataclysm, and whatever is in Dragon Isles could be the 'solution' to the problem. Dragons are a useful ally, and allowing them to have babies again would be beneficial to protecting the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it's a combination of things. The "Light-based expansion" revolves around a technologically advanced invading force.
    Any technology sufficiently advanced can be equated to being magic. That's pretty much how Light-based tech works; Crystals and shit. It's advanced because it's semi-magical.

    I guess you're open to a semi-magical Tinker class then? Just clarifying since you used to argue against this point when I had put it on the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's not just about finding Dragons there, it's about the potential of restoring the power to the Aspects and the potential of removing the sterility that prevents new Dragons (from the Aspect Dragonflights) from being created.

    The Dragons are sterile, the Aspects have lost much of their power since Cataclysm, and whatever is in Dragon Isles could be the 'solution' to the problem. Dragons are a useful ally, and allowing them to have babies again would be beneficial to protecting the world.
    But the aspects willing gave it up for a reason...... "LOL JK" doesn't sound like the reason we'd go back

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    They are fanatics of the light, hence the name lightbound.....not mechbound. They arent advanced, as our universe had their mech suits before we ever saw them in one (legion, argus). And they're not going to really appear as aliens either since we already have a presence of mag'har and draenei on our planet. You're trying to force a connection that just isn't there, or certainly not strong enough to justify adding it to the story.
    A race that uses robots, mechs, and spaceships aren't advanced?

    A race that literally comes from another planet aren't aliens?

    The light is a source of their power and they worship it. That doesn't change the fact that they're utilizing advanced tech. Further, the people who build those machines are Artificers, and they're considered a type of engineer.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'd rather tinker stay in a deep dark hole than have a class that is only playable by the worst fucking races in game.
    You are one hell of a negative person.. using the word fuck in every post is realy childish to make your point.

    You got called out and proven wrong in multiple threads.

    You only like shadow hunters for some weird reason and dismiss everything else. No one is taking you seriously and your bias is showing.
    Please read this blizzard: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...m_source=share also what could have been possible with Nightborne--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLr5dDXn5nE

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Any technology sufficiently advanced can be equated to being magic. That's pretty much how Light-based tech works; Crystals and shit. It's advanced because it's semi-magical.

    I guess you're open to a semi-magical Tinker class then? Just clarifying since you used to argue against this point when I had put it on the table.
    Well again I don't believe any of that is relevant if the results are stuff like this;




    I think technology in any fantasy game is going to have some magical elements to it.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well it's a combination of things. The "Light-based expansion" revolves around a technologically advanced invading force. In addition, Blizzard has really been pushing the notion that LF Draenei utilize mechs on the same level as Gnomes and Goblins. I think looked at our first encounter with the Lightbound, and I noticed Exarch Orelis, who also piloted a mech, and used the same general mechanics as the Gnome and Goblin mech pilots. I thought that was interesting. I simply don't see how you can bring in a technology class and NOT include LF Draenei artificers into the mix, there's simply too much lore there.

    Finally I began to think of how a Tinker inclusion would actually work, and if it works along the same lines as the Monk class, Blizzard would merge internal and external concepts into the general class. One big issue I had with multiracial Tinkers was how would Blizzard make a technology assets that reflect the uniqueness of each race. I eventually came to a conclusion that that simply wouldn't do that since they have to make new technology assets for a class anyway. Also you had the magitech of the Draenei vs. the steam punk of the Goblins and a mix with Gnomes. So which makes more sense? Creating all new art assets for each "Tinker" race, or create a unified technology concept that can be used by multiple races? Clearly it makes more sense to simply unify the concept; Merge Goblin/Gnome/Draenei/Nightborne concepts into a single technology class.

    Thus, I simply can't see a Goblin/Gnome centric class, but instead a class that merges technological concepts from a variety of sources. That would in turn facilitate a class that can be of multiple races outside of Gnomes and Goblins, which handles people's personal issues with the short races.
    So the burning Legion is also tinkerers? I mean they had fel reavers, right?

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A race that uses robots, mechs, and spaceships aren't advanced?

    A race that literally comes from another planet aren't aliens?

    The light is a source of their power and they worship it. That doesn't change the fact that they're utilizing advanced tech. Further, the people who build those machines are Artificers, and they're considered a type of engineer.
    Advanced compared to who? Murlocs? We have all those things already, and we had all of them before we saw the lightbound.

    They wouldn't be aliens if both species are currently living on our planet.

    They are lightbound......a very small percentage of them pilot mech suits. Most of them are paladin like in nature like yrel.....a literal paladin, the face of the lightbound. Why would we ever make a class based on a faction where the leader isnt even that class? lich king-dk, illidan-dh, chen stormstout-monk.....

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinaul View Post
    So the burning Legion is also tinkerers? I mean they had fel reavers, right?
    There were Tinkerers within the Burning Legion who built mechanical devices fueled by demonic power. The difference is that there was no player race or potential class concept that was utilizing demonic powered technology. In this case we DO have two races that utilize technology fueled by Light/Naaru power, and a class concept that can utilize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    Advanced compared to who? Murlocs?
    And this right here shows that you're simply being obtuse and have no interest in an actual discussion.

    They are lightbound......a very small percentage of them pilot mech suits. Most of them are paladin like in nature like yrel.....a literal paladin, the face of the lightbound. Why would we ever make a class based on a faction where the leader isnt even that class? lich king-dk, illidan-dh, chen stormstout-monk.....
    Two things;

    1. We don't know what their forces look like when they invade Azeroth. We encountered them at a point in AU Draenor's timeline where they were wiping out the Orcs. Considering that Draenei are immortal, there's no telling how much they've built up their forces, or what they've acquired since we last encountered them.

    2. The class wouldn't be entirely based on Naaru/Lightbound tech, it would be based on technology period. Thus lore characters like Gazlowe or Mekkatorque could still be the face of the new class.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There were Tinkerers within the Burning Legion who built mechanical devices fueled by demonic power. The difference is that there was no player race or potential class concept that was utilizing demonic powered technology. In this case we DO have two races that utilize technology fueled by Light/Naaru power, and a class concept that can utilize it.

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    And this right here shows that you're simply being obtuse and have no interest in an actual discussion.



    Two things;

    1. We don't know what their forces look like when they invade Azeroth. We encountered them at a point in AU Draenor's timeline where they were wiping out the Orcs. Considering that Draenei are immortal, there's no telling how much they've built up their forces, or what they've acquired since we last encountered them.

    2. The class wouldn't be entirely based on Naaru/Lightbound tech, it would be based on technology period. Thus lore characters like Gazlowe or Mekkatorque could still be the face of the new class.
    You're missing the point. WHO is the face of tinkers? Can't be Gazlowe or Mekkatorque, can't show favoritism. Plus why would they randomly have them bring it in now? It doesn't fit the story. It has a weak foundation and everything is a stretch. This scenario can't hold a light compared to the strong stories surrounding the connections DK, DH, and Monk made. Not even close.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    You're missing the point. WHO is the face of tinkers?
    The face of the Tinkers has always been Gazlowe and Mekkatorque. That doesn't change simply because you broaden the concept.

    Can't be Gazlowe or Mekkatorque, can't show favoritism.
    How is that favoritism?

    Plus why would they randomly have them bring it in now? It doesn't fit the story.

    Again, an advanced alien race is invading Azeroth and they use (magic-powered) mech suits, robots, trans-dimensional spaceships, and other machines. How does a technology class not fit that story?

    It has a weak foundation and everything is a stretch. This scenario can't hold a light compared to the strong stories surrounding the connections DK, DH, and Monk made. Not even close.
    Uh, what strong stories and connections? What huge role did the DH players play in Legion outside of cannon fodder? WTF did Monks have to do with the storyline in MoP?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    You're missing the point. WHO is the face of tinkers? Can't be Gazlowe or Mekkatorque, can't show favoritism. Plus why would they randomly have them bring it in now? It doesn't fit the story. It has a weak foundation and everything is a stretch. This scenario can't hold a light compared to the strong stories surrounding the connections DK, DH, and Monk made. Not even close.
    I'd like to say that there is no necessity for a class to have a tie into whatever theme the next expansion has. The bigger issue is the immense overlap inbetween Hunter/Engineer and what Tinkers do. The Tinker fans like to say 'well who can drop a mech to tank/heal/whatever' as if that's a necessity to exist, but precedence of whatever existing in the game or the lore doesn't mean it will be featured as what would be a major feature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, what strong stories and connections? What huge role did the DH players play in Legion outside of cannon fodder? WTF did Monks have to do with the storyline in MoP?
    They led the Illidari after the disappearance of Illidan, who was the key character of the expansion, and the Players and the Demon Hunters struggle against the Legion was a key theme of an 'End of the Burning Legion' story. Also, it's the player character that steals the keystone that allows the travel to Argus.

    Monks were the antithesis to the Sha and their temptations, who were the main antagonist of the expansion, with their influence culminating in the corruption of Garrosh.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    I'd like to say that there is no necessity for a class to have a tie into whatever theme the next expansion has.
    Except Blizzard has said this in literally every interview ever regarding new classes.

  18. #138
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    They led the Illidari after the disappearance of Illidan, who was the key character of the expansion,
    Who leads the Illidari is irrelevant to the plot of Legion.

    and the Players and the Demon Hunters struggle against the Legion was a key theme of an 'End of the Burning Legion' story. Also, it's the player character that steals the keystone that allows the travel to Argus.
    Which doesn't require a playable Demon Hunter class. You could easily swap the Illidari for any player class to assists the Wardens in retrieving the keystone.

    Monks were the antithesis to the Sha and their temptations, who were the main antagonist of the expansion, with their influence culminating in the corruption of Garrosh.
    The Sha erupted from the Alliance and Horde conflict in Pandaria. Monks didn't do much to quell them.

    The point is this; The new class doesn't need to be intrinsically tied to the plot of the expansion, it simply needs to relate to the expansion theme. Blizzard has purposely tied mech-piloting to Draenei technology and that gives a mech-based class concept like the Tinker an opening in an expansion where that type of technology is a focal point.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-06-09 at 05:21 PM.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinfelle View Post
    But the aspects willing gave it up for a reason...... "LOL JK" doesn't sound like the reason we'd go back
    I wouldn't even say it's the Aspects who necessarily want it back, rather it's Wrathion looking for the Dragon Isles, looking for something that could help his kind. This story seed has already been planted.

    If Wrathion finds a way to re-empower the Aspects or make them fertile again, do you think the Aspects will say no? Especially if he convinces them that we are about to face of an oncoming war against the Void Lords?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well again I don't believe any of that is relevant if the results are stuff like this;

    I think technology in any fantasy game is going to have some magical elements to it.
    Then you've changed your beliefs, since I pointed out at similar concepts having existed with the Blood Elves and their Arcane Golems, and you had argued otherwise.

    As I said, I'm trying to clarify your stance since you had argued against any form of magic mixed with Technology for the Tinker previously.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-09 at 05:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #140
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you've changed your beliefs, since I pointed out at similar concepts having existed with the Blood Elves and their Arcane Golems, and you had argued otherwise.

    As I said, I'm trying to clarify your stance since you had argued against any form of magic mixed with Technology for the Tinker previously.
    There's a direct line connecting Draenei warframes to the Tinker concept. In turn there's a direct line connecting Nightborne technology to Draenei technology (the shared Artificer title and similarities in general technology). I don't see that line with Blood Elves and arcane golems. I would need to see more examples of Blood Elf-based tech.

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