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  1. #1

    Report: Tax Returns of the Top 25 Wealthiest in America

    TLDR
    *Unrealized gains are the devil.
    *Low interest loans are probably making things worse and the rich borrow a lot of money. Not all of it for useful purposes.
    *Yes, it’s worse than you think.
    *Yes, it’s really long.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/t...oid-income-tax

  2. #2
    Propublica does a really good job with visualizations, their charts and the whole section on wealth growth/taxes for Bezos vs. the normal person are great.

    Man, it's gonna be interesting to see the Propublica pieces on Buffett. For a guy who constantly talks about wanting to pay more taxes it sure seems like he abuses and exploits literally every loophole in existence to avoid paying taxes instead of just like, paying his fuckin taxes.

    I cringe that I pay more proportional taxes than all of these fucks, and that's including guestimates about my overall wealth rather than just my income. .1%? 3.2%? Fuckin joke.

  3. #3
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Man, it's gonna be interesting to see the Propublica pieces on Buffett. For a guy who constantly talks about wanting to pay more taxes it sure seems like he abuses and exploits literally every loophole in existence to avoid paying taxes instead of just like, paying his fuckin taxes.
    Seriously, Warren Buffett is not a "good guy".

    His position is a snarky "I shouldn't be able to totally ream the economy like this" while continuing to absolutely ream the economy for every penny that he can.

    It's like Thomas Jefferson writing about how awful the institution of slavery is while raping and beating his own slaves regularly and never considering ever emancipating any of them, not even his own children he fathered upon them.

    People put way too much stock in the words, and not enough consideration into their actions.


  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    TLDR
    *Unrealized gains are the devil.
    *Low interest loans are probably making things worse and the rich borrow a lot of money. Not all of it for useful purposes.
    *Yes, it’s worse than you think.
    *Yes, it’s really long.
    https://www.propublica.org/article/t...oid-income-tax
    The biggest problem with the this piece is the fact they are using increase in stock price(as most of the extremely wealthy own an extremely large amount of stock in their companies) as a data point on what they call their true tax rate. You cannot do that as that "wealth" cannot be accessed. If we based taxes on that, then those same people could use a drop in stock prices as a means to reduce tax liability, eliminate it or outright get a massive tax return.

    It is disingenuous to put that as a data point. It would be like saying "Because that person owns a car, you need to tax them higher." Should I be able to reduce my tax bill because I own a car and it depreciates each year?

    Biggest thing is they need to raise capital gains taxes and corporate taxes along with removing loopholes for both. That is how DJT got away with paying no taxes for a long time.
    Last edited by gondrin; 2021-06-08 at 05:39 PM.

  5. #5
    Elemental Lord KuerbisgeschmackShake's Avatar
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    Kinda a shame how the genre of gritty comic books missed out on how to portray billionaires as villain's.

    Do billionaire heroes avoid going after billionaires out of class solidarity? Or is it more banal reasons, like not wanting to spoil Tony Stark Jr's playdates?


    Such a missed opportunity for an EngelsCut of the Justice League.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Milchshake View Post
    Do billionaire heroes avoid going after billionaires out of class solidarity?
    Billionaires want your money. They also want the other Billionaires money.

    Tony Stark might have went after Obadiah Stane and Justin Hammer because they're "villains" but he might've just want their market share.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, Warren Buffett is not a "good guy".

    His position is a snarky "I shouldn't be able to totally ream the economy like this" while continuing to absolutely ream the economy for every penny that he can.

    It's like Thomas Jefferson writing about how awful the institution of slavery is while raping and beating his own slaves regularly and never considering ever emancipating any of them, not even his own children he fathered upon them.

    People put way too much stock in the words, and not enough consideration into their actions.
    Yeah, he plays the game of Politicians make laws and take away loopholes and I will pay taxes. Of course that will NEVER happen.
    “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States…. [It is] nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that ‘my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.’”

    -Isaac Asimov

  8. #8
    I saw this article posted on ProPublica's FB page and the comments are just....yikes. Folks in literally the poorest parts of the US championing these guys and their ability to skirt taxes while bleating the very same "They pay the most in taxes" nonsense the first paragraph of the article debunks.
    “You're not to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it or says it.”― Malcolm X

  9. #9
    I really don't care to hear about "we can't afford X,Y or Z" because… well... clearly the money and resources are there, but it's all in the hands of like 5 people.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Seriously, Warren Buffett is not a "good guy".

    His position is a snarky "I shouldn't be able to totally ream the economy like this" while continuing to absolutely ream the economy for every penny that he can.

    It's like Thomas Jefferson writing about how awful the institution of slavery is while raping and beating his own slaves regularly and never considering ever emancipating any of them, not even his own children he fathered upon them.

    People put way too much stock in the words, and not enough consideration into their actions.
    Can't say too much, myself. If I were to actually be in his situation, I would still be saying we need to pay more taxes at the top.

    But at the same time, I wouldn't pay anymore than I had to personally. And when it came down to it, I would also be very vocal about how little I pay and how I should pay more and when asked why I didn't, I would respond with "Because you don't MAKE me and just me doing it won't change anything."
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Can't say too much, myself. If I were to actually be in his situation, I would still be saying we need to pay more taxes at the top.

    But at the same time, I wouldn't pay anymore than I had to personally. And when it came down to it, I would also be very vocal about how little I pay and how I should pay more and when asked why I didn't, I would respond with "Because you don't MAKE me and just me doing it won't change anything."
    Nobody is asking him to pay more than he "has to", just not to use every loophole in existence to avoid paying the taxes he claims he wants to pay and wants to see increased.

    Like, sure I'm no Warren Buffett but I pay my fuckin taxes. I take the standard deduction (higher than anything itemized) and I don't even write off charitable donations. Why? Because to me that defeats the point of donating to charity (there shouldn't be a financial incentive for it), I don't actually mind paying a "bit" more in taxes that I reasonably owe, and I'm not in dire financial straights where I'd need to use every way to limit my tax liability.

    He's no less credible in his calls to raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy by simply paying what he owes rather than exploiting every loophole in existence.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    It is disingenuous to put that as a data point. It would be like saying "Because that person owns a car, you need to tax them higher." Should I be able to reduce my tax bill because I own a car and it depreciates each year?
    I don't know if you SHOULD be able to, but depending on the use you put the vehicle to, you absolutely can. It needs to be a business vehicle, but I'm pretty sure owning stocks is also a business related venture.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Nobody is asking him to pay more than he "has to", just not to use every loophole in existence to avoid paying the taxes he claims he wants to pay and wants to see increased.
    This sentence is a contradiction. If those loopholes are legal, he doesn't "have to" pay those taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Nobody is asking him to pay more than he "has to", just not to use every loophole in existence to avoid paying the taxes he claims he wants to pay and wants to see increased.

    Like, sure I'm no Warren Buffett but I pay my fuckin taxes. I take the standard deduction (higher than anything itemized) and I don't even write off charitable donations. Why? Because to me that defeats the point of donating to charity (there shouldn't be a financial incentive for it), I don't actually mind paying a "bit" more in taxes that I reasonably owe, and I'm not in dire financial straights where I'd need to use every way to limit my tax liability.

    He's no less credible in his calls to raise taxes on the ultra-wealthy by simply paying what he owes rather than exploiting every loophole in existence.
    Not saying he is a saint or anything but I would literally use every loophole at my disposal too while actually being vocal about those loopholes I am using and how much it personally kept me from paying taxes and giving the others an idea of just how much that needs to be closed.

    I wholeheartedly believe they should be pay more, even if I ended up there. But at the same time, it isn't THEIR job to be generous enough to do it. It is the government's job to force them to do it.

    As Franklin Roosevelt said, “You’ve convinced me. Now go out and make me do it.”

    I would use every single loophole and tax haven law I could to reduce my tax burden and it vocally and publicly letting everyone know it is there for them to either close it or watch more and more try and use it too.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    This sentence is a contradiction. If those loopholes are legal, he doesn't "have to" pay those taxes.
    It's literally not. You can be a rich guy advocating for higher tax rates for other rich folks without abusing loopholes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I would use every single loophole and tax haven law I could to reduce my tax burden and it vocally and publicly letting everyone know it is there for them to either close it or watch more and more try and use it too.
    Nothing is stopping you from paying these taxes and then pointing out, with specificity, the ways in which you could have avoided paying considerable taxes but chose not to.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's literally not. You can be a rich guy advocating for higher tax rates for other rich folks without abusing loopholes.
    .
    It literally is. You're saying you're not asking him to pay taxes he doesn't have to, while asking him to pay taxes he doesn't have to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Nothing is stopping you from paying these taxes and then pointing out, with specificity, the ways in which you could have avoided paying considerable taxes but chose not to.
    True, but me personally paying it alone while the rest don't doesn't accomplish anything and just leaves me personally taking the loss for it. And it isn't my job to pay those taxes I don't legally owe, it is their job to make me pay those taxes by saying I owe them.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    I don't know if you SHOULD be able to, but depending on the use you put the vehicle to, you absolutely can. It needs to be a business vehicle, but I'm pretty sure owning stocks is also a business related venture.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This sentence is a contradiction. If those loopholes are legal, he doesn't "have to" pay those taxes.
    Well, Trump's tax cut removed the ability to use a personal vehicle for work related uses unless you are self employed. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/heres-t...ir-tax-returns

    As I said, if they do make a "wealth tax", then when stock prices go up or down, when an automobile value goes down(which it usually does) or anything else that would constitute as wealth(remember, someone owning a house, regardless if they are looking to sell it or not, is considered wealth) goes down, that would be subject to writing off taxes or paying less in taxes then people would like. Remember, it wouldn't be on the total sum of the wealth but the gain or loss from whenever it goes up or down.

    When you add property(stock, real estate, etc.) as a means to judge wealth and base tax rates off of it, well, don't be surprised when the same people pay the same amount or less in taxes.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    Well, Trump's tax cut removed the ability to use a personal vehicle for work related uses unless you are self employed. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/heres-t...ir-tax-returns

    As I said, if they do make a "wealth tax", then when stock prices go up or down, when an automobile value goes down(which it usually does) or anything else that would constitute as wealth(remember, someone owning a house, regardless if they are looking to sell it or not, is considered wealth) goes down, that would be subject to writing off taxes or paying less in taxes then people would like. Remember, it wouldn't be on the total sum of the wealth but the gain or loss from whenever it goes up or down.

    When you add property(stock, real estate, etc.) as a means to judge wealth and base tax rates off of it, well, don't be surprised when the same people pay the same amount or less in taxes.
    Yes, that's why I said "it needs to be a business vehicle."

    If they were paying less taxes because they took a loss on wealth, that means they're not making money, but losing it. This isn't the problem. The problem you're suggesting would exist with a wealth tax already exist in our current tax regime. There are a ton of depreciation write offs with land/buildings, write offs for taking losses on stocks, as well as 1:1 write offs for abandoned properties (the list goes on). Basing an additional tax on wealth doesn't make those problems, those problems are independent of any wealth tax.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ripster42 View Post
    Yes, that's why I said "it needs to be a business vehicle."

    If they were paying less taxes because they took a loss on wealth, that means they're not making money, but losing it. This isn't the problem. The problem you're suggesting would exist with a wealth tax already exist in our current tax regime. There are a ton of depreciation write offs with land/buildings, write offs for taking losses on stocks, as well as 1:1 write offs for abandoned properties (the list goes on). Basing an additional tax on wealth doesn't make those problems, those problems are independent of any wealth tax.
    The tax they want to bring forth is taxing unrealized gains. You know, tax the value of a stock because it went up regardless if you sell it or not. Thing is, the opposite would be true too where you would be able to write off any unrealized losses along with it.

    With that, should I be able to write off my personal vehicle loss in value because it depreciated? Doesn't matter if I sell it or not as it is still considered property.
    Last edited by gondrin; 2021-06-08 at 06:31 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    The tax they want to bring forth is taxing unrealized gains. You know, tax the value of a stock because it went up regardless if you sell it or not. Thing is, the opposite would be true too where you would be able to write off any unrealized losses along with it.
    Again, there are already instances where people deduct unrealized losses in our current tax regime. Like I said, depreciation deductions aren't just for cars. We already have the problem you're saying would exist if they taxed people for unrealized gains, while at the same time, not getting revenue for unrealized gains. That's largely how these people are paying 0.1% tax rates.

    Edit: Well, not .1% tax rates, but tax rates well below what the median income earner pays.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by gondrin View Post
    With that, should I be able to write off my personal vehicle loss in value because it depreciated? Doesn't matter if I sell it or not as it is still considered property.
    Again, a lot of these 'unrealized loss deductions' are for property which often have increased in value because the depreciation percentage deductions aren't based on any real loss or gain in value but set rates of depreciation.

    Edit: and, again, we're not talking about "personal vehicles" when we're talking about centi-billionaires taking losses. There is no $1b car. We're talking about things that are being used for business/investment.
    Last edited by Ripster42; 2021-06-08 at 06:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudol Von Stroheim View Post
    I do not need to play the role of "holier than thou". I'm above that..

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