1. #2241
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're just repurposing things I said that you don't understand, at this point. It's the "NO U" level of debate.



    Where did I endorse Warren's plan, again?

    And you're ignoring how taxes function. Essentially no one pays straight taxes on the full gross. Neither corporate nor income taxes. You can't just skip exceptions and exclusions and all that.



    Because it was a circular, dishonest question. Asking it was an insult. It's right up there with "when did you stop beating your wife?"



    Liar. That's all this is; an empty, mean-spirited lie. You're just baiting me.



    Literally no evidence. Your math was incomplete, and your criticisms of my more complete math are insufficient, since you're ignoring the limitations I admitted we were stuck with, dealing with partial information.
    You are the one who pushed the argument to go after corporate profits to pay for it. YOUR ARGUMENT.

    We've been talking about Warren's plan. Feel free to oppose it, right now. I'll wait.

    It's not a mean-spirited lie, you wanted to go after the corporate profits, for her wealth tax. That was your fucking idea. SO, if she had shared more of her profits with her employees, she would be in a much wore position, according to your own argument. That's the most ironic part of this, the Warren plan PUNISHES those who are more honest, and more successful.

    Edit to your Edit: You are the one who chose to invoke corporate profits. Don't bitch at me, because I went after your evidence, and tore it apart.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-06-15 at 07:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  2. #2242
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You are the one who pushed the argument to go after corporate profits to pay for it. YOUR ARGUMENT.
    Literally not something I ever said. Why are you lying about super basic stuff?

    We've been talking about Warren's plan. Feel free to oppose it, right now. I'll wait.
    Why would I? You claimed I was endorsing it, which I wasn't. Entertaining it as a hypothetical is not an endorsement. There's a hell of a lot of room between "endorsement" and "opposition".

    It's not a mean-spirited lie, you wanted to go after the corporate profits, for her wealth tax. That was your fucking idea.
    Nope, that's a lie. I did not ever suggest going after corporate profits.

    I pointed out that she would have income from said profits, and that this is a revenue source she'd be using to pay her taxes. Like you do, with any income source, when you owe taxes.

    You have a real problem distinguishing between the individual and the corporation. It's weird.

    SO, if she had shared more of her profits with her employees, she would be in a much wore position, according to your own argument. That's the most ironic part of this, the Warren plan PUNISHES those who are more honest, and more successful.
    Except for the whole "wealth tax" bit. She'd have much less wealth, and thus not be facing nearly the same tax burden. Because she shared so much of that wealth with her staff.

    Literally how it works. I shouldn't have to explain it.

    Seriously, if you can't just honestly deal with a simple argument levied against you, you're just demonstrating that your position has no rational basis and nobody should consider it a reasonable option for consideration. I'm trying to help you.

  3. #2243
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Literally not something I ever said. Why are you lying about super basic stuff?



    Why would I? You claimed I was endorsing it, which I wasn't. Entertaining it as a hypothetical is not an endorsement. There's a hell of a lot of room between "endorsement" and "opposition".



    Nope, that's a lie. I did not ever suggest going after corporate profits.

    I pointed out that she would have income from said profits, and that this is a revenue source she'd be using to pay her taxes. Like you do, with any income source, when you owe taxes.

    You have a real problem distinguishing between the individual and the corporation. It's weird.


    Except for the whole "wealth tax" bit. She'd have much less wealth, and thus not be facing nearly the same tax burden. Because she shared so much of that wealth with her staff.

    Literally how it works. I shouldn't have to explain it.

    Seriously, if you can't just honestly deal with a simple argument levied against you, you're just demonstrating that your position has no rational basis and nobody should consider it a reasonable option for consideration. I'm trying to help you.
    You talked about their profits of 20% off sales of $1 billion.

    Are you having selective amnesia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I shouldn't entertain this, but I'm bored. So here we go.

    Assuming the highest implementation of Warren's wealth tax at 6%.
    Assuming the figure of $3.6 billion for Snyder's net worth is accurate.

    That would put Snyder's tax obligations at $156m at 6%, and $19m at 2%, for a total of $175m/year in wealth tax.

    In&Out's revenue in 2018 was about $1b. I'm using 2018 figures because I can't find more recent; they'd have grown since so this is underselling my point, if anything, as the valuation for net worth is current. https://www.forbes.com/sites/chloeso...h=7a6c7b54b9cd

    Their profit margins are around 20%, according to this; http://mastersinvest.com/newblog/201...n-n-out-burger

    That means of that $1b in revenue, $200m was profit.

    And . . . $200m is more than $175m. Snyder already takes in enough in profits (of which she is the sole beneficiary, as the sole owner) to pay her wealth tax, and still be taking in millions. And we haven't gotten to her salary, her capital gains, or any other revenue generation she might be making outside In&Out (all of which were already included in her net worth, so we're just not including her gains, here).

    So she's still be making millions and In&Out would still be expanding just as quickly and she'd be paying her wealth tax just fine. See what happens when you start including a more-thorough assessment of her finances, and don't neglect to include her income streams?

    Before you say it, there'd be taxes on that income, sure. But we can't pre-emptively assess what shenanigans her accountants could work out to protect it from being taxed, as we saw in the article in the OP. Regardless, it wouldn't be anywhere near what you were claiming.
    Seriously, just stop lying.

    That "much less wealth" means less company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  4. #2244
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You talked about their profits of 20% off sales of $1 billion.

    Are you having selective amnesia?
    Profits are paid out to shareholders. Those profits belong to Snyder, personally.

    So no, I'm not suffering "amnesia", I'm just capable of understanding when we're talking about Snyder, and when we're talking about In&Out, because those are two separate things without overlap.

    Seriously, just stop lying.

    That "much less wealth" means less company.
    It literally can't. How do you not understand corporate taxation?

    Corporate taxes apply to profits, not gross revenue. They cannot make a company struggle to do business or cut costs, by design.

    Lynsi Snyder is not In&Out. Why can't you tell the difference between the two? Snyder having less wealth does not mean anything regarding In&Out's business endeavours.

  5. #2245
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Profits are paid out to shareholders. Those profits belong to Snyder, personally.

    So no, I'm not suffering "amnesia", I'm just capable of understanding when we're talking about Snyder, and when we're talking about In&Out, because those are two separate things without overlap.



    It literally can't. How do you not understand corporate taxation?

    Corporate taxes apply to profits, not gross revenue. They cannot make a company struggle to do business or cut costs, by design.

    Lynsi Snyder is not In&Out. Why can't you tell the difference between the two?
    So, do you at least agree you invoked company profits.

    In&Out is entirely owned by her, and that comprises over 80% of her net worth.

    Now you get it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  6. #2246
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, do you at least agree you invoked company profits.
    This isn't a magical incantation. I referenced them in the context of where Snyder had income coming from. You're the one who then started wildly misconstruing things from there.

    In&Out is entirely owned by her, and that comprises over 80% of her net worth.

    Now you get it?
    I get that you're conflating the two, and that doing so is completely unreasonable and, if Snyder tried that on tax forms, would get her charged with tax fraud and such.

    They're separate entities. You're trying to treat them as if they're a single thing, and that's not how anything works.

    A wealth tax on Snyder does not affect In&Out in any way whatsoever.

    Snyder choosing to divest some of her ownership in the company does not mean the company's operations change in any meaningful way, nor does it even mean Snyder has less control, automatically.

    Snyder is making a lot of money, and your earlier "math" completely ignored her income entirely while fearmongering about the impact a wealth tax would have.

  7. #2247
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,866
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, do you at least agree you invoked company profits.

    In&Out is entirely owned by her, and that comprises over 80% of her net worth.

    Now you get it?
    80% of snyder is in In&Out.
    100% on In&Out are In&Out. They are not the same entity. Might have a sole owner, but I'm sure that Snyder won't be responsible for every action taken by the company she owns.
    Same as the company won't be on the hook to pay her speeding tickets in a person car.

    This is what you fail to separate in practically all of your arguments.
    - Lars

  8. #2248
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This isn't a magical incantation. I referenced them in the context of where Snyder had income coming from. You're the one who then started wildly misconstruing things from there.



    I get that you're conflating the two, and that doing so is completely unreasonable and, if Snyder tried that on tax forms, would get her charged with tax fraud and such.

    They're separate entities. You're trying to treat them as if they're a single thing, and that's not how anything works.

    A wealth tax on Snyder does not affect In&Out in any way whatsoever.

    Snyder choosing to divest some of her ownership in the company does not mean the company's operations change in any meaningful way, nor does it even mean Snyder has less control, automatically.

    Snyder is making a lot of money, and your earlier "math" completely ignored her income entirely while fearmongering about the impact a wealth tax would have.
    Once again, the math simply disagrees with you, as ALL HER OTHER ASSETS WOULD BE GONE.

    You're now caught up to 50 pages ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    80% of snyder is in In&Out.
    100% on In&Out are In&Out. They are not the same entity. Might have a sole owner, but I'm sure that Snyder won't be responsible for every action taken by the company she owns.
    Same as the company won't be on the hook to pay her speeding tickets in a person car.

    This is what you fail to separate in practically all of your arguments.
    If you tax her wealth, that includes In&Out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  9. #2249
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, do you at least agree you invoked company profits.

    In&Out is entirely owned by her, and that comprises over 80% of her net worth.

    Now you get it?
    I am far from the smartest person here and i understand what he's saying. If you think his explanation is incorrect, could you explain why you think so?



    Company nets 200 million in profits.

    This profit is paid out to owners. shareholders, investors, or whoever gets a piece of the pie.

    Snyder is the sole owner of the company.

    Snyder is paid the 200 million in profit.

    At this point that money ceases to be the companies and is now income for Snyder.

    Snyder uses some of this money to pay her Tax burden.

    At no point is the burden of paying the wealth tax placed on the company. Again please if you disagree with this assessment please explain

  10. #2250
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, the math simply disagrees with you, as ALL HER OTHER ASSETS WOULD BE GONE.

    You're now caught up to 50 pages ago.
    Instead of whining about the hypotheticals of Lynsi Snyder’s fortune why don’t you try and get the thoughts of real Billionaires who live in actual countries who currently charge real Wealth Taxes.

  11. #2251
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    I am far from the smartest person here and i understand what he's saying. If you think his explanation is incorrect, could you explain why you think so?



    Company nets 200 million in profits.

    This profit is paid out to owners. shareholders, investors, or whoever gets a piece of the pie.

    Snyder is the sole owner of the company.

    Snyder is paid the 200 million in profit.

    At this point that money ceases to be the companies and is now income for Snyder.

    Snyder uses some of this money to pay her Tax burden.

    At no point is the burden of paying the wealth tax placed on the company. Again please if you disagree with this assessment please explain
    Except... more than all that money would be taken up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Instead of whining about the hypotheticals of Lynsi Snyder’s fortune why don’t you try and get the thoughts of real Billionaires who live in actual countries who currently charge real Wealth Taxes.
    Snyder is a real billionaire, and I showed how she'd be impacted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  12. #2252
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's the point, most of them aren't sitting on mountains of money.

    Most of that money is tied up in companies.


    Warren's new plan calls for 6%, and it is annually.

    So, that would be over &10 billion... every single year.

    Taking out loans wouldn't do much, because his debt would be compounded annually.

    .

    Strange somehow MacKenzie Scott managed to find a way to get "mountains of money" to donate and not crater herself into poverty, destroy the company or destroy the stock market.

    hmmm. 2.9 billion and 4.2 billion,.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mackenz...tion-billions/


    Oh shit 6%...what will she do....

    Scott is among those billionaires whose fortunes have soared since the pandemic first crippled the U.S. in March. Her wealth is now valued at more than $60 billion, representing a boost of almost $24 billion since the start of the year, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index.

    ummm, hmmm she gained 24 billion last year so after a 6% tax she would be net positive what 20 billion or so? Hell after the tax and donations she is still 10-12 billion dollars richer.



    Even odder somehow the tax would cause huge problems to the stock, ownership, the individuals.....but yet a 53 billion dollar divorce payment did none of that. But hey a 4 billion dollar tax bill is going to destroy him!!!!
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  13. #2253
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Snyder is a real billionaire, and I showed how she'd be impacted.
    No you asspulled some numbers which don’t mean anything because she currently doesn’t pay a wealth tax.

    There are dozens of Billionaires who currently live in countries that require them to pay a wealth tax. Get their thoughts.

  14. #2254
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except... more than all that money would be taken up.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Snyder is a real billionaire, and I showed how she'd be impacted.
    Not according to Endus's math. There is still 25 million left after all tax burdens are met.

    Their profit margins are around 20%, according to this; http://mastersinvest.com/newblog/201...n-n-out-burger

    That means of that $1b in revenue, $200m was profit.

    And . . . $200m is more than $175m
    Are you saying his math is wrong? if so you could you point out how?

  15. #2255
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post



    Liquidity is a huge issue. I pointed to Lynsi Snyder, who has almost all her money tied up in a single company, that she alone owns, and her family founded over 60 years ago.

    If Warren's plan were ever to come to fruition, then she would be forced to sell her company, piece by piece... all due to that lack of liquidity.




    .
    Bull
    Fucking
    Shit.


    Liquidity is not an issue when she can borrow at a lower interest rate then the returns on the stock, interest, investment returns and business income.

    I mean this is not specific to billionaires. If you have substantial assets as collateral you can borrow money, thus have huge Liquidity possibilities and ability.

    Paying back low interest loans with excess capital, business income, interest, investment returns, etc and still ending up with a massive net positive.

    Its almost like you didn't read or comprehend the original story/investigation posted?
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  16. #2256
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Seagrove Beach, FL
    Posts
    6,538
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Bull
    Fucking
    Shit.


    Liquidity is not an issue when she can borrow at a lower interest rate then the returns on the stock, interest, investment returns and business income.

    I mean this is not specific to billionaires. If you have substantial assets as collateral you can borrow money, thus have huge Liquidity possibilities and ability.

    Paying back low interest loans with excess capital, business income, interest, investment returns, etc and still ending up with a massive net positive.

    Its almost like you didn't read or comprehend the original story/investigation posted?
    Of course not.

    Taxes bad thinks the embarrassed millionaire.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  17. #2257
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Strange somehow MacKenzie Scott managed to find a way to get "mountains of money" to donate and not crater herself into poverty, destroy the company or destroy the stock market.

    hmmm. 2.9 billion and 4.2 billion,.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/mackenz...tion-billions/


    Oh shit 6%...what will she do....

    Scott is among those billionaires whose fortunes have soared since the pandemic first crippled the U.S. in March. Her wealth is now valued at more than $60 billion, representing a boost of almost $24 billion since the start of the year, according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index.

    ummm, hmmm she gained 24 billion last year so after a 6% tax she would be net positive what 20 billion or so? Hell after the tax and donations she is still 10-12 billion dollars richer.



    Even odder somehow the tax would cause huge problems to the stock, ownership, the individuals.....but yet a 53 billion dollar divorce payment did none of that. But hey a 4 billion dollar tax bill is going to destroy him!!!!
    Good for her.

    Then again, she just got a ton of money in a divorce, and you guys want to do that to her... ever single year.

    And her ex-husband

    And all the rest.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    No you asspulled some numbers which don’t mean anything because she currently doesn’t pay a wealth tax.

    There are dozens of Billionaires who currently live in countries that require them to pay a wealth tax. Get their thoughts.
    Which is my point, the numbers are the estimated value of her company, compared to her net worth.

    That's what you people want to tax.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    Not according to Endus's math. There is still 25 million left after all tax burdens are met.



    Are you saying his math is wrong? if so you could you point out how?
    What about corporate taxes?

    You guys forgot about that, which totals 29.84% of total profits.

    He even mentioned those taxes, but didn't want to talk about them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Bull
    Fucking
    Shit.


    Liquidity is not an issue when she can borrow at a lower interest rate then the returns on the stock, interest, investment returns and business income.

    I mean this is not specific to billionaires. If you have substantial assets as collateral you can borrow money, thus have huge Liquidity possibilities and ability.

    Paying back low interest loans with excess capital, business income, interest, investment returns, etc and still ending up with a massive net positive.

    Its almost like you didn't read or comprehend the original story/investigation posted?
    And... she's have to pay it back. Year, over year, over year, over year.

    So, bull fucking shit, to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  18. #2258
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Can you refute the math?

    Even Endus ended up mired in a shit storm of taxing at 117% of a well-run company's profits.
    yah very easily since its a private company and you don't have the specific figures on her income, business payments, profits, revenue, taxes, etc etc

    You have guesstimates at best.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  19. #2259
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,077
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, the math simply disagrees with you, as ALL HER OTHER ASSETS WOULD BE GONE.

    You're now caught up to 50 pages ago.
    I have no idea where you're getting this from. Even if she were starting to divest ownership of In&Out, so what? That doesn't affect the company.

    If you tax her wealth, that includes In&Out.
    This is not true. Where the hell are you pulling this nonsense from?

    In&Out is a separate tax entity. Her ownership of the company would be taxed, not the company itself. Those are not the same things.

    If she sold In&Out tomorrow, she'd lose all ownership, but the company wouldn't be affected, it would continue under its new ownership, with all its resources and properties intact.

  20. #2260
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    yah very easily since its a private company and you don't have the specific figures on her income, business payments, profits, revenue, taxes, etc etc

    You have guesstimates at best.
    And that would mean taking literally all their profits, plus some.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •