1. #3021
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    One more time. Get an adult to help you through this.

    Because he has the stock, he doesn't take a big paycheck. If he didn't have the stock, he'd be talking bigger paychecks. The position of CEO of Amazon would get paid more than $81k/year if it wasn't for the stocks. So instead, like all the ultra wealthy, he takes a small paycheck and takes out loans against the stock portfolio, where the interest rate is lower than the income tax had he taken the money in his paycheck. The Wall Street Journal article, you refuse to read, which again has been posted in it entirety without the paywall, explained this and flat out says they all do this to AVOID INCOME TAX. These aren't simple loans, like you or I could get, even with your awesome super duper Chipotle stock.

    There is no argument you've made up to this point, that refutes anything I just said. Not your article about what Amazon said. Not your very narrow definition of salary. Not your refrain that none of us understand the difference between wealth and income. Not your feeble attempts to paint us as just wanting his money. Not your incredibly stupid comparisons to your own entirely different financial status. So if you respond with a retort, you'll need an argument you haven't made, because again, if say any of that shit I just listed, it will show YET AGAIN, you don't know the first thing about this stuff.
    Well, glad we're finally past the nonsense of him actually being paid in stock.

    He also sells stocks, billions of dollars worth... and pays taxes on those sales. I already provided evidence of those sales.

    I read the article, it doesn't even mention Bezos. You made specific claims about a specific person. That WSJ article doesn't even talk about him. Forgive me if I'm skeptical of your claims, you don't have a great track record regarding such things.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-08-31 at 02:27 AM.

  2. #3022
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    Agree? I just said that wasn't what you were lying about earlier. Jesus fucking christ.
    Dude...he's repeating the same shit he has in several threads now. It's why I ignore him. He was never interested in convincing anyone of anything. He just wants to troll to piss others off. Neithet facts nor truth matter to him unless he can misuse them to "prove" his own version of what he wants you to believe.

    Stop trying to shine up shit.
    Or as put in other threads, stop feeding this pigeon.

  3. #3023
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Dude...he's repeating the same shit he has in several threads now. It's why I ignore him. He was never interested in convincing anyone of anything. He just wants to troll to piss others off. Neithet facts nor truth matter to him unless he can misuse them to "prove" his own version of what he wants you to believe.

    Stop trying to shine up shit.
    Or as put in other threads, stop feeding this pigeon.
    You're not wrong.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  4. #3024
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Dude...he's repeating the same shit he has in several threads now. It's why I ignore him. He was never interested in convincing anyone of anything. He just wants to troll to piss others off. Neithet facts nor truth matter to him unless he can misuse them to "prove" his own version of what he wants you to believe.

    Stop trying to shine up shit.
    Or as put in other threads, stop feeding this pigeon.
    I try to give him the benefit of the doubt because he actually does have moments where he can hold his own, then he goes into his ideological fantasies and loses it all.

    Try not to lump him in with the pigeons but it really starts feeling like that episode of Star Trek - The Next Generation where that old woman destroys the Crystalline Entity and Picard goes into his speech about how bad people will actually cloak themselves behind good actions.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  5. #3025
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I try to give him the benefit of the doubt because he actually does have moments where he can hold his own, then he goes into his ideological fantasies and loses it all.

    Try not to lump him in with the pigeons but it really starts feeling like that episode of Star Trek - The Next Generation where that old woman destroys the Crystalline Entity and Picard goes into his speech about how bad people will actually cloak themselves behind good actions.
    Or, I'm just not going to cower to the bullshit games. If posters want to sit in the peanut gallery and shit out lies, that's on them. And yes, that's exactly what he does.

    When you were respectful to me, I was respectful to you. I will treat people accordingly. If a poster wants to jump in with bullshit and lies, like the other guy did, I'll treat him with the amount of respect he deserves. In some cases, it's not much.

  6. #3026
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Or, I'm just not going to cower to the bullshit games. If posters want to sit in the peanut gallery and shit out lies, that's on them. And yes, that's exactly what he does.

    When you were respectful to me, I was respectful to you. I will treat people accordingly. If a poster wants to jump in with bullshit and lies, like the other guy did, I'll treat him with the amount of respect he deserves. In some cases, it's not much.
    No man, you acted respectful, I will give you that. But you outright ignored facts you disliked and hand waved away everything you could to cling to stuff that isn't real. I am sorry, but you are.

    Just look at our interactions, you ignored so much, gave something completely unworkable while pretending it was and your entire thought process ground to a halt after the phrase "Increased Burden" and just assumed that was a bad thing while you applied it so broadly that it was anything but in many cases.

    Sorry man, but you are just plain wrong.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  7. #3027
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    No man, you acted respectful, I will give you that. But you outright ignored facts you disliked and hand waved away everything you could to cling to stuff that isn't real. I am sorry, but you are.

    Just look at our interactions, you ignored so much, gave something completely unworkable while pretending it was and your entire thought process ground to a halt after the phrase "Increased Burden" and just assumed that was a bad thing while you applied it so broadly that it was anything but in many cases.

    Sorry man, but you are just plain wrong.
    No, I don't simply accept someone's opinion as a fact. That's the thing. When someone is literally trying to tell me what I mean when I say a word, I'm not going to take him seriously.

    I ignored the things you were saying, when you kept repeating the same thing over and over again.

    Simply stopping the increase in spending is a workable solution. It may not be a solution you like, but it can work. It may not lead to the results you want, but that doesn't mean it cannot do what I want it to do. The issue is that you and I have different goals, so what I propose isn't there to solve your goals, but to solve my goals.

    You want the government to take care of everyone. Honestly, that's fine... for you. That's just not what I want. My goals are more focused on individual liberty. So, our solutions are not going to be the same. It feels like you're trying to explain how my solution won't solve your goals, and it's not meant to solve yours.

  8. #3028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, that's you imagining it.

    This is you trying to tell me what I mean, and saying what words I'm allowed to use. Think about how absurd you are being.

    This is the topic, tax rates. People have been calling for increased tax rates... of others. I simply wanted to know what they thought about their own tax rates. They didn't seem to want to raise those. Go figure.
    I don't remember if it was in this thread, or a different one, but earlier on this exact same stance I argued that I could easily have my taxes raised no issue. I currently pay around 33% of my income in taxes, could survive with paying 40% no issue. Would have to spend less on luxuries. But I know a lot of people with my income level far less privileged who couldn't.

    I also remember that when I said that, you more or less went "GOOD! PAY MORE AND LEAVE THE RICH ALONE!"
    - Lars

  9. #3029
    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    I don't remember if it was in this thread, or a different one, but earlier on this exact same stance I argued that I could easily have my taxes raised no issue. I currently pay around 33% of my income in taxes, could survive with paying 40% no issue. Would have to spend less on luxuries. But I know a lot of people with my income level far less privileged who couldn't.

    I also remember that when I said that, you more or less went "GOOD! PAY MORE AND LEAVE THE RICH ALONE!"
    Nope, I don't remember saying that. I applaud you wanting to pay more, at least you are willing to do what the others are not.

  10. #3030
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, I don't simply accept someone's opinion as a fact. That's the thing. When someone is literally trying to tell me what I mean when I say a word, I'm not going to take him seriously.

    I ignored the things you were saying, when you kept repeating the same thing over and over again.

    Simply stopping the increase in spending is a workable solution. It may not be a solution you like, but it can work. It may not lead to the results you want, but that doesn't mean it cannot do what I want it to do. The issue is that you and I have different goals, so what I propose isn't there to solve your goals, but to solve my goals.

    You want the government to take care of everyone. Honestly, that's fine... for you. That's just not what I want. My goals are more focused on individual liberty. So, our solutions are not going to be the same. It feels like you're trying to explain how my solution won't solve your goals, and it's not meant to solve yours.
    I repeated the same things over and over again BECAUSE you were ignoring them and because they were important stuff you completely skipped over that destroyed your whole premise.

    And no, "Simply stopping the spending increase" is not a workable solution as you have been told, especially on programs that are already underfunded to the point of near collapse. And you completely ignored the fallout of your solution.

    Unless your goals is to needless cause massive suffering and violence that ends up costing lots more money to fix, your goals won't be met and will be largely counter productive because you are ignoring too many factors.

    As I have said before, your solution is about as workable as a colander soup bowl and for exactly the same reason, too many holes you ignored when you used it pretending they weren't there and ignoring the people who pointed them out to you.

    Sorry, but are wrong and your logic on this is critically flawed and would cause nothing but pain and suffering if you got to implement them.

    I am out, but you need to stop ignoring facts and dismissing them just because you dislike them. You disliking them doesn't make them wrong just like you liking them doesn't make them wrong. And I am not saying yours is wrong because I dislike them, I am saying they are wrong and won't because they are logically flawed and ignores reality and would fail because of that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, I don't remember saying that. I applaud you wanting to pay more, at least you are willing to do what the others are not.
    You have told me the exact same thing before.

    You told me to leave the rich alone in one term or another and tried calling it jealousy just like you told us just to stop shopping at places that doesn't pay their jobs living wages and don't attack the freedom of the business owners to pay unlivably low wages and other stuff. And a host of other things.

    And just like now, you ignored facts you disliked to cling to the comforting views you do like.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  11. #3031
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    I repeated the same things over and over again BECAUSE you were ignoring them and because they were important stuff you completely skipped over that destroyed your whole premise.

    And no, "Simply stopping the spending increase" is not a workable solution as you have been told, especially on programs that are already underfunded to the point of near collapse. And you completely ignored the fallout of your solution.

    Unless your goals is to needless cause massive suffering and violence that ends up costing lots more money to fix, your goals won't be met and will be largely counter productive because you are ignoring too many factors.

    As I have said before, your solution is about as workable as a colander soup bowl and for exactly the same reason, too many holes you ignored when you used it pretending they weren't there and ignoring the people who pointed them out to you.

    Sorry, but are wrong and your logic on this is critically flawed and would cause nothing but pain and suffering if you got to implement them.

    I am out, but you need to stop ignoring facts and dismissing them just because you dislike them. You disliking them doesn't make them wrong just like you liking them doesn't make them wrong. And I am not saying yours is wrong because I dislike them, I am saying they are wrong and won't because they are logically flawed and ignores reality and would fail because of that.
    Except, those things applied to what you want, not what I want. It's not workable, for what you want. I'm not trying to do what you want, this was about how I'd do what I wanted. This is the part that you still refuse to accept.

    Those programs are underfunded for what you want out of them.

    My goal is to rein in government spending, increase liberty, and push people towards more individual responsibility.

    My goal is not to take care of people more and more every single year. My goal is not to have a socialist nation. SO, stop thinking about what I'm saying in the context of what you want, because it will simply be a foreign language.

    For lack of a better analogy, we're trying to play two different sports, soccer, and football, and you keep trying to tell me why throwing the ball isn't workable. Sure, it's not going to fly in soccer, but seems to work just fine in football.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post

    - - - Updated - - -



    You have told me the exact same thing before.

    You told me to leave the rich alone in one term or another and tried calling it jealousy just like you told us just to stop shopping at places that doesn't pay their jobs living wages and don't attack the freedom of the business owners to pay unlivably low wages and other stuff. And a host of other things.

    And just like now, you ignored facts you disliked to cling to the comforting views you do like.
    Yes, stop shopping at places you don't like.

    As for the wealthy, if you are going to demand more of them, you better be willing to put forth more of yourself.

    So, I'm guessing he misconstrued what I said. Feel free to go back and look at the tape.

  12. #3032
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, those things applied to what you want, not what I want. It's not workable, for what you want. I'm not trying to do what you want, this was about how I'd do what I wanted. This is the part that you still refuse to accept.

    Those programs are underfunded for what you want out of them.

    My goal is to rein in government spending, increase liberty, and push people towards more individual responsibility.

    My goal is not to take care of people more and more every single year. My goal is not to have a socialist nation. SO, stop thinking about what I'm saying in the context of what you want, because it will simply be a foreign language.

    For lack of a better analogy, we're trying to play two different sports, soccer, and football, and you keep trying to tell me why throwing the ball isn't workable. Sure, it's not going to fly in soccer, but seems to work just fine in football.
    Again, wrong.

    It wasn't applying it to what I wanted, it was applying to what could actually WORK. Unless your version of workable is the same as Trumps where it is headed by people who believe it shouldn't even exist and be as close to closed down and disbanded as possible to the point it can't even perform its stated functions. If that is what you were going for, you would have it with your "Solution"

    It isn't underfunded for what I want out of them, they are underfunded TO PERFORM THEIR STATED GOALS.

    And again, your stated goals are completely antithetical to the methods you are implying to get them. Your policies would lead to DECREASED freedom, and increased exploitation. And the most personally responsible people you found would be the ones with the gun at your head to take care of their children and doing the dirty work so they don't have to and can still eat.

    Your goal isn't to have a functioning nation, it is to have a aristocratic dystopia because that is where your policies will lead you because again, you ignore reality when you don't like what it tells you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, stop shopping at places you don't like.

    As for the wealthy, if you are going to demand more of them, you better be willing to put forth more of yourself.

    So, I'm guessing he misconstrued what I said. Feel free to go back and look at the tape.
    And not even going by what you told him, going by what you told ME and others in the past, you also ignored reality on them over and over again to cling to your fantasies.

    And you are getting to the point you actually are starting to make Shalcker start sounding Genuine and Intelligent by comparison with how batshit you are getting to cling to this.

    I'm out, I am REALLY hoping you just come here to play devils advocate to come these insane fantasies.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  13. #3033
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Again, wrong.

    It wasn't applying it to what I wanted, it was applying to what could actually WORK. Unless your version of workable is the same as Trumps where it is headed by people who believe it shouldn't even exist and be as close to closed down and disbanded as possible to the point it can't even perform its stated functions. If that is what you were going for, you would have it with your "Solution"

    It isn't underfunded for what I want out of them, they are underfunded TO PERFORM THEIR STATED GOALS.

    And again, your stated goals are completely antithetical to the methods you are implying to get them. Your policies would lead to DECREASED freedom, and increased exploitation. And the most personally responsible people you found would be the ones with the gun at your head to take care of their children and doing the dirty work so they don't have to and can still eat.

    Your goal isn't to have a functioning nation, it is to have a aristocratic dystopia because that is where your policies will lead you because again, you ignore reality when you don't like what it tells you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    And not even going by what you told him, going by what you told ME and others in the past, you also ignored reality on them over and over again to cling to your fantasies.

    And you are getting to the point you actually are starting to make Shalcker start sounding Genuine and Intelligent by comparison with how batshit you are getting to cling to this.

    I'm out, I am REALLY hoping you just come here to play devils advocate to come these insane fantasies.
    Once again, we don't want the same thing, so it's not going to work for what you want. We don't need $700 billion a year to run the military. We can trim some employees from various agencies. The NSA doesn't need 35k employees (or however many they have). CBP doesn't need to work so damn hard to keep out illegals. ICE can just be dissolved. The FDA can shutter one of its 3 dozen buildings in the DC metro area. The DEA can stop having such a hard on for marijuana.

    We know it can be done, because many, many countries spend less than we do, per capita. Hell, many do, and still offer more than the united States government does. So, to say it's not workable, is to literally ignore all those countries.

    Cuts can be made. Spending increases can be stopped.

    You are still free to shop at a different store. Period. All it takes, is a little personal responsibility.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-08-31 at 04:34 AM.

  14. #3034
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, we don't want the same thing, so it's not going to work for what you want. We don't need $700 billion a year to run the military. We can trim some employees from various agencies. The NSA doesn't need 35k employees (or however many they have). CBP doesn't need to work so damn hard to keep out illegals. ICE can just be dissolved. The FDA can shutter one of its 3 dozen buildings in the DC metro area. The DEA can stop having such a hard on for marijuana.

    We know it can be done, because many, many countries spend less than we do, per capita. Hell, many do, and still offer more than the united States government does. So, to say it's not workable, is to literally ignore all those countries.

    Cuts can be made. Spending increases can be stopped.

    You are still free to shop at a different store. Period. All it takes, is a little personal responsibility.
    When we were discussing social security, you didn't mention crap about cutting funding across the board, you made it sound pretty clear that you were also including not increasing Social Security to cover its intended goals. You also outright fought against the rich actually being taxed to help cover it like it was originally intended to be by they started dodging it through capital gains.....

    If you want to talk about cutting the Military, great. I am paid through the VA and I will also agree to that, it didn't need the pay raise it got.

    If you want to talk about cutting Social Security, fuck no, it needs MORE funding to perform its goals and the taxes setup expressly to hand that fund need to be adjusted to meet it, the whole point of them was to keep social security out of the general budget and self sustained. This is what we were talking about the entire time. And I say this as a person who will never draw a dime from it due to the military.

    Cutting ICE, great, lets abolish it.

    But the whole "Increased burden" is a cop out from you plain and simple. Spending increases, that is a subjective topic on WHERE that spending is going and how it is got.

    And we have already gone around on your shopping different places, you got an infraction for that fucked in the head bullshit you were talking it was so, beyond the pale, insane.

    Your goals with your polices are to a nations budget and long to sustainability what Jeff Sessions wanted to be to Marijuana in the US.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Alright, I am off to bed. Good night guys and it's safe to say Machismo, you will never admit to the parts of reality you dislike if your MMO-Champion history is anything to go by.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  15. #3035
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Because, you attack the rich every chance you get.
    And I'd defend them because they're good people? You're right, I should defend them like you. "Give them more money! Subsidies are amazing. Socialism for the rich is the way to go! Taxing them is EVIL!"

    If you did nothing but attack poor people, I'd only be defending them, in your eyes.
    "If this hypothetical happened I'd be right" but remember if my hypothetical happened you'd be a centaur.

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  16. #3036
    Just ignore... I've never met anyone that takes libertarians seriously when realized what they are. The fact that there's one in congress says something about Kentucky....not that anyone gives a shit about what Rand Paul says.

  17. #3037
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    And I'd defend them because they're good people? You're right, I should defend them like you. "Give them more money! Subsidies are amazing. Socialism for the rich is the way to go! Taxing them is EVIL!"



    "If this hypothetical happened I'd be right" but remember if my hypothetical happened you'd be a centaur.
    No, I defend the rights and freedoms of people. I don't care much what their financial status is.

    The rest is simply you blatantly lying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    When we were discussing social security, you didn't mention crap about cutting funding across the board, you made it sound pretty clear that you were also including not increasing Social Security to cover its intended goals. You also outright fought against the rich actually being taxed to help cover it like it was originally intended to be by they started dodging it through capital gains.....

    If you want to talk about cutting the Military, great. I am paid through the VA and I will also agree to that, it didn't need the pay raise it got.

    If you want to talk about cutting Social Security, fuck no, it needs MORE funding to perform its goals and the taxes setup expressly to hand that fund need to be adjusted to meet it, the whole point of them was to keep social security out of the general budget and self sustained. This is what we were talking about the entire time. And I say this as a person who will never draw a dime from it due to the military.

    Cutting ICE, great, lets abolish it.

    But the whole "Increased burden" is a cop out from you plain and simple. Spending increases, that is a subjective topic on WHERE that spending is going and how it is got.

    And we have already gone around on your shopping different places, you got an infraction for that fucked in the head bullshit you were talking it was so, beyond the pale, insane.

    Your goals with your polices are to a nations budget and long to sustainability what Jeff Sessions wanted to be to Marijuana in the US.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Alright, I am off to bed. Good night guys and it's safe to say Machismo, you will never admit to the parts of reality you dislike if your MMO-Champion history is anything to go by.

    Since some of what we're discussing is pulling away from the topic at hand, I'd recommend PMs for anything that isn't related to tax rate on the wealthy. I messaged you the response, instead.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-08-31 at 10:11 AM.

  18. #3038
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, I defend the rights and freedoms of people. I don't care much what their financial status is.
    Oh, okay. Phew, that's good you don't care about their financial status, so you're okay with taxing them then?

    Dontrike/Shadow Priest/Black Cell Faction Friend Code - 5172-0967-3866

  19. #3039
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, glad you agree that this was something brought up weeks ago, and not just yesterday, like you thought.

    I understand just fine. They are trying g to equate income to wealth, and push those distorted numbers as a "true tax rate."
    lol, how is this thread still going? The main article from Propublica contradicts itself multiple times as I recall and loans aren’t income by any generally recognized definition of ‘loan’ or ‘income’. You’ve got a lot more patience than I’ve got to still be debating this. The basis of the argument is false so pretty much all the conclusions drawn are moot, not to mention the inflationary monetary policy pursued by the government creates this whole scenario in the first place. Thread done.

  20. #3040
    Quote Originally Posted by Dontrike View Post
    Oh, okay. Phew, that's good you don't care about their financial status, so you're okay with taxing them then?
    It seems like you forgot about that "caring about freedom" part of the equation.

    They are already taxed, and pay (on average) a higher rate than the average American.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by D3thray View Post
    lol, how is this thread still going? The main article from Propublica contradicts itself multiple times as I recall and loans aren’t income by any generally recognized definition of ‘loan’ or ‘income’. You’ve got a lot more patience than I’ve got to still be debating this. The basis of the argument is false so pretty much all the conclusions drawn are moot, not to mention the inflationary monetary policy pursued by the government creates this whole scenario in the first place. Thread done.
    Well, one of the guys has almost figured out the difference between salary and wealth. So, with fingers crossed, we'll get him there.

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