1. #3201
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, buy a home, then you control that aspect. Buy a car, you can control that, as well. Tart your own company, then you control your very paycheck.

    They are options for ALMOST everyone. Sure, it may take time, but it is something that can be achieved.

    Not only that, someone not having those things is not inherently the fault of the wealthy. It's also not mine, nor is it yours.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I literally pointed to several times where he sold billions in stock. I linked the articles. I really don't care if you like it, that's what happened.

    We know he sold stock, because he no longer owns the entire company. He ha slowly chipped away at the amount of stock he owns.

    I'm not going to forgive Bezos, because you are saying literally all the "uber wealthy." You want to jump into hypotheticals, because you realize your narrative is collapsing. Every time you try to claim something, it simply evaporates before your very eyes, and you have to move goalposts.

    Let's say instead of going after hypothetical situations to justify your narrative, you stick with reality. This is exactly why I called you on your very specific claims about specific people... because that's how misinformation is pushed.

    So, you want to forget Bezos. Sure, just as soon as you admit the shit you were saying was fucking false.

    Loans are debt... not income.
    I'm using hypotheticals to try and get through to you the issue because you literally don't understand it. You still don't. It was the last thing I could think of to try and make a dent in your ignorance. It was a hail mary.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  2. #3202
    i like how this is basically the bad climate argument.

    'well jimbo if you separate your plastic and banana peels you can save the planet*'

    *and we can ignore the structural issues and huge polluters.

    'well jimbo if you save your pennies every month you will have enough for a campervan in 60 years control your destiny*'

    *and ignore the structural issues of capitalism and the inequality.

    how fucking boring.

  3. #3203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm using hypotheticals to try and get through to you the issue because you literally don't understand it. You still don't. It was the last thing I could think of to try and make a dent in your ignorance. It was a hail mary.
    Thats the real question here because the question really becomes whether or not this is a case of arguing in bad faith
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #3204
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    That's not what he does.

    He, like all the uber wealthy, take out loans on those stocks, and get an interest rate lower than what the income tax would be. They do that instead of taking a paycheck that pays them what they're worth for the job they do.

    I have answered your stupid fucking question every other time you asked it.....this has nothing to do with you people outside the 1%. Not a single one of you can game the system of tax shelters like the uber wealthy can and to the degree they can, because you can't afford to.

    Forget Bezos.

    Lets say John Jimmy of 123 Products is the CEO. Let's say this company makes a $100 billion a year. John Jimmy, as the CEO is valuable to the company, its his leadership that has made them successful. Let's say his worth to the company is $300 million a year, as in they should pay him $300 mil/year in paychecks.

    He has 2 choices:

    A)- $300mil/yr in paychecks, and paying 25% income tax on that.

    or

    B)- $80k/yr in paychecks and paying 25% income tax on that, but has $100billion worth of 123 Product stock that he uses to take out loans against that give him way more than $300mil/yr but he has to pay way less than 25% tax on, in interest rates.

    You nor anyone else outside the 1% has options like that. This is why literally EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD has set high limits to when and how these rules should kick in. You and your 3 shares of Chipotle and a modest 401k, don't qualify, so stop asking and relating it back to shit that's not part of the scenario.

    It is wrong that they have the B option. Yes, they benefit more from government resources. So much so, there's literally no way to quantify it. But if you really need a hard number to prove that Bezos benefits more from government resources than you or I do, than you're being a bad faith shit poster. I mean those 3.5 billion products a year don't get delivered on Amazon owned roads, for example.

    So yes, we have people benefitting more from government infrastructure and using those benefits to pay less to that infrastructure. Its wrong. You can't argue that on its merits, all you can do is use narrow semantic and /or circular arguments, which is precisely what you've done.

    What is even worse is they take that 300 million in stock use it as collateral on a very low interest rate line of credit/loan and they reinvest that money in their choice of investment.

    Where as the normal 'lay' person say has 50,000 they have to first pay income tax, then employment taxes, then state taxes....before they decide what they want to invest. Oh they can do some of this investing "pre tax" but there are LIMITS and tax implications years later. Odd how there is no limits on that 300 million huh?
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  5. #3205
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    I'm using hypotheticals to try and get through to you the issue because you literally don't understand it. You still don't. It was the last thing I could think of to try and make a dent in your ignorance. It was a hail mary.
    The problem is that you are ignoring actual reality, while swearing that is exactly what happens.

    Yes, wealthy people do borrow against their stocks. That's because those stocks are assets. Normal people also borrow against their assets, they just tend to use their home equity. The premise is the same.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  6. #3206
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The problem is that you are ignoring actual reality, while swearing that is exactly what happens.

    Yes, wealthy people do borrow against their stocks. That's because those stocks are assets. Normal people also borrow against their assets, they just tend to use their home equity. The premise is the same.
    lol. Here comes the circular argument. Rinse, repeat.

    Just bad faith. Get your last word in.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  7. #3207
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, buy a home, then you control that aspect. Buy a car, you can control that, as well. Tart your own company, then you control your very paycheck.

    They are options for ALMOST everyone. Sure, it may take time, but it is something that can be achieved.

    Not only that, someone not having those things is not inherently the fault of the wealthy. It's also not mine, nor is it yours.
    Again with the “you”.

    You really don’t. Gotta love that American Car Tax. Everyone owning a small business? There used to be a lot more small businesses. I wonder what happened to them?

    But your home can get fucked just as easily by your rich assholes as anything else. The Texas power failures being a good recent example of that.
    The wealthy decided that American life should be car centered as possible. Sucks that life is governed by a constantly depreciating asset.
    Walmart, Amazon and others have been gutting small businesses for decades. I think you called it “capitalism”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Loans are debt... not income. I can literally take a loan out against my stocks right now. By my calculations, it takes about 12 clicks on my mouse.
    They’re income if your collateral will make more money than the loans interest.

  8. #3208
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    He pays for things by selling billions in stock, and he pays taxes on that stock.
    You've been shown, repeatedly, that this is NOT what's happening. They are using the stocks as assets to take out loans that they have zero intention of repaying. So they are getting income because of the stocks they own, on which they pay NO tax.

    The loans eventually get repaid as part of the estate when they die.

    This is how they are avoiding paying the tax that they should do; because the rules that they help to ensure are written this way are designed to help them to avoid tax.

    Any danger of you admitting these simple facts, or are you going to carry on repeating the same tired lies you've been spouting for pages in this thread?
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  9. #3209
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodakane View Post
    lol. Here comes the circular argument. Rinse, repeat.

    Just bad faith. Get your last word in.
    It's not bad faith, it was literally proving you wrong, based on actual news reports.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Again with the “you”.

    You really don’t. Gotta love that American Car Tax. Everyone owning a small business? There used to be a lot more small businesses. I wonder what happened to them?

    But your home can get fucked just as easily by your rich assholes as anything else. The Texas power failures being a good recent example of that.
    The wealthy decided that American life should be car centered as possible. Sucks that life is governed by a constantly depreciating asset.
    Walmart, Amazon and others have been gutting small businesses for decades. I think you called it “capitalism”.



    They’re income if your collateral will make more money than the loans interest.
    Not everyone is going to be a billionaire, or even a millionaire. But, you can work to have a better life.

    They are debt.

    The income from those assets occurs when you sell it... like Bezos has done many times.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    You've been shown, repeatedly, that this is NOT what's happening. They are using the stocks as assets to take out loans that they have zero intention of repaying. So they are getting income because of the stocks they own, on which they pay NO tax.

    The loans eventually get repaid as part of the estate when they die.

    This is how they are avoiding paying the tax that they should do; because the rules that they help to ensure are written this way are designed to help them to avoid tax.

    Any danger of you admitting these simple facts, or are you going to carry on repeating the same tired lies you've been spouting for pages in this thread?
    I've shown repeatedly that Bezos specifically has sold stock, and paid taxes on it... just like when I sell stock.

    And they can take out loans, as can I. I can donit on my stocks, home, and any other assets I may have. They simply have more of those things, so they can borrow more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  10. #3210
    You guys understand that Machismo gets everything you're saying, but that he insists he must do what he can to argue in order to "protect" what he believes are the freedoms of the obscenely rich, right?

    He doesn't care how much of a clown he appears, clearly, he is literally just arguing for the sake of arguing on their behalf and his fucked up "ideology."

    This is literally the third time, in this thread alone, that this entire song and dance has been done. That's third with a 3.

  11. #3211
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I've shown repeatedly that Bezos specifically has sold stock, and paid taxes on it... just like when I sell stock.

    And they can take out loans, as can I. I can donit on my stocks, home, and any other assets I may have. They simply have more of those things, so they can borrow more.
    So can you take out loans on your stocks and use that as a sole source of income? Can you exist purely on that stream of income, ensuring that you pay no tax? If you're an average working person, you certainly can't.

    I'd also ask where you think you can do that; where can you take out a loan against your assets that doesn't need to be repaid until you die? You think that your average bank is going to offer that to the average working person?

    Stop pretending that the avoidance methods that the super rich employ are somehow available to normal people. That's like saying they'd be able to fly because wings exist, so in theory they could have some.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.
    Quote Originally Posted by George Carlin
    Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job.

  12. #3212
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Not everyone is going to be a billionaire, or even a millionaire. But, you can work to have a better life.

    They are debt.

    The income from those assets occurs when you sell it... like Bezos has done many times.
    Again with the “you”. This isn’t about being a millionaire or billionaire. Your work is irrelevant.

    For example, you’ve admitted to having a 401k. This might work for you but it’s still a device designed to have no collective power and extract management fees from you. It’s value is subject to the whims of the wealthy regardless of how responsible you are with it.

    They’re not debt. It would be debt for most people but it’s not for them. Even if they choose to pay the money back (not a guarantee) they do it at a time when it’s convenient (ie they’ll make money). Bezos has sold stock yet he’s wealthier than ever because he has greater options than regular people.

  13. #3213
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Again, literally untrue and not remotely accurate. Poverty begets poverty, and being poor is expensive.
    Guy refuses to recognize that inflation is through the roof. You can't imagine he gives a damn about the poor after defending his sucking off the wealthy.

    You're feeding a pigeon.

  14. #3214
    Quote Originally Posted by Huehuecoyotl View Post
    So can you take out loans on your stocks and use that as a sole source of income? Can you exist purely on that stream of income, ensuring that you pay no tax? If you're an average working person, you certainly can't.

    I'd also ask where you think you can do that; where can you take out a loan against your assets that doesn't need to be repaid until you die? You think that your average bank is going to offer that to the average working person?

    Stop pretending that the avoidance methods that the super rich employ are somehow available to normal people. That's like saying they'd be able to fly because wings exist, so in theory they could have some.
    No, I can take out loans, using my stock as collateral, and pay it back over time. It's not my single source of income, because it's technically debt. On top of that, it's not their single source of income, either.

    I'm literally one (maybe two) clicks away from being able to do it right now.

    So long as my stock outpaces the interest from my loan, then I'd be able to sell that stock, and pay back the loan. I'd be taxed when I sold my stock, just like always.

    The issue isn't that it's not available. The issue is that they can simply do it way more often, with more money.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Again with the “you”. This isn’t about being a millionaire or billionaire. Your work is irrelevant.

    For example, you’ve admitted to having a 401k. This might work for you but it’s still a device designed to have no collective power and extract management fees from you. It’s value is subject to the whims of the wealthy regardless of how responsible you are with it.

    They’re not debt. It would be debt for most people but it’s not for them. Even if they choose to pay the money back (not a guarantee) they do it at a time when it’s convenient (ie they’ll make money). Bezos has sold stock yet he’s wealthier than ever because he has greater options than regular people.
    I have a 401k, because my company matches it, which is "free money." Otherwise, I also have mutual funds, because I'm not a fucking expert, and cede to the experts on how to handle some of my money. On top of that, I also choose to invest in stocks, based on things that I support, and think will be a good investment. I also have a Roth IRA, so I can have some tax-free money if I need it after I retire (taxes are taken out beforehand, not afterwards).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Guy refuses to recognize that inflation is through the roof. You can't imagine he gives a damn about the poor after defending his sucking off the wealthy.

    You're feeding a pigeon.
    Are you saying the problem with the wealthy only started when the inflation rate spiked due to the pandemic?

    https://tradingeconomics.com/united-.../inflation-cpi

    I cannot imagine you even know what the hell you're trying to argue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  15. #3215
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The issue isn't that it's not available. The issue is that they can simply do it way more often, with more money.
    Careful. You're acknowledging that having great wealth confers an advantage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I have a 401k, because my company matches it, which is "free money."
    Otherwise, I also have mutual funds, because I'm not a fucking expert, and cede to the experts on how to handle some of my money.
    On top of that, I also choose to invest in stocks, based on things that I support, and think will be a good investment.
    I also have a Roth IRA, so I can have some tax-free money if I need it after I retire (taxes are taken out beforehand, not afterwards).
    Its not "free money". Its part of your salary. Furthermore, most people don't have jobs that do that.
    Not everyone has the spare cash for mutual funds. Imagine having to pay the plumbing because your pipes burst through no fault of your own.
    See above.
    Did you fatten up your IRA with inside information?

  16. #3216
    Ok guys, how many pages have we gone with Machismo making excuses NOT to understand this basic stuff on MULTIPLE threads?
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  17. #3217
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Careful. You're acknowledging that having great wealth confers an advantage.



    Its not "free money". Its part of your salary. Furthermore, most people don't have jobs that do that.
    Not everyone has the spare cash for mutual funds. Imagine having to pay the plumbing because your pipes burst through no fault of your own.
    See above.
    Did you fatten up your IRA with inside information?
    Having wealth does have an advantage, because wealth builds upon wealth. The existence of compounding interest alone demonstrates that. They have more money, so they can save more money, and invest more money. That's why it took several years for me to save my first $100k, because it starts slowly. But, it picks up steam as you continue to put money away, and the interest builds on itself.

    60 million Americans have a 401k, and half of all Americans own stock. That's a sizeable number. And yes, any adult can buy stocks. Things like plumbing are part of the expected expenses of owning a home. It's like not preparing for your car breaking down. Those things are a statistical inevitability, so it's not a matter of if such things happen, but how long until they do happen. You highlighted (albeit unwittingly) on one of the main reasons people never really escape the paycheck-to-paycheck life... not planning for those eventualities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  18. #3218
    Limited Time to Save Social Security and Medicare

    Today, the Social Security and Medicare Trustees released their annual reports on the state of the trust funds. The Trustees find that Medicare’s Hospital Insurance trust fund will be insolvent by 2026, Social Security’s Old-Age and Survivors Insurance trust fund will run out of reserves by 2033, Social Security’s Disability Insurance trust fund will be depleted by 2057, and the theoretically combined Social Security trust funds will be insolvent by 2034. Upon insolvency, Social Security will be reduced across-the-board by 22 percent under current law.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maya MacGuineas, president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget:

    13 years – that’s how long seniors have before Social Security and Medicare run out of reserves. We can’t promise full benefits to today’s retirees, let alone our kids and grandkids.

    Not only is this year’s outlook worse than in last year’s report, but we’ve lost yet another year from inaction. As the Trustees explain, we should act sooner rather than later to restore solvency to these vital programs.

    Acting today, we could fix Social Security with a 27 percent tax increase or 21 percent benefit reduction. If we wait until 2034, those adjustments will have to be about a quarter larger. And there would be little opportunity to phase in changes or give workers the warning they deserve.

  19. #3219
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Ok guys, how many pages have we gone with Machismo making excuses NOT to understand this basic stuff on MULTIPLE threads?
    I do understand it, and I literally pointed it out in my very first quote.

    People say the "loopholes" are the problem, but others use them. If the problem is stock ownership, and they want to tax that ownership, then that directly impacts the 60 million people with a 401k, and half the country who owns stocks.

    If this is about borrowing against assets, and calling it income.... then that means even mortgages (not even just home-equity loans) would be considered income.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Limited Time to Save Social Security and Medicare

    Today, the Social Security and Medicare Trustees released their annual reports on the state of the trust funds. The Trustees find that Medicare’s Hospital Insurance trust fund will be insolvent by 2026, Social Security’s Old-Age and Survivors Insurance trust fund will run out of reserves by 2033, Social Security’s Disability Insurance trust fund will be depleted by 2057, and the theoretically combined Social Security trust funds will be insolvent by 2034. Upon insolvency, Social Security will be reduced across-the-board by 22 percent under current law.

    Yep, that's what happens when people don't plan. This has been kicked down the road for almost two full generations.

    Don't worry, they'll just shift the burden onto the national debt, and screw over future generations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  20. #3220
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I do understand it, and I literally pointed it out in my very first quote.

    People say the "loopholes" are the problem, but others use them. If the problem is stock ownership, and they want to tax that ownership, then that directly impacts the 60 million people with a 401k, and half the country who owns stocks.

    If this is about borrowing against assets, and calling it income.... then that means even mortgages (not even just home-equity loans) would be considered income.
    No, you literally don't. I went in circles around with you spelling them out and you went out of your way NOT to understand it on multiple threads and multiple topics. You will intentionally not allow yourself to understand topics if knowing them contradicts the ideology you want to adhere to.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

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