1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, I'm focusing on the right part, your desire to take away wealth, because you hate rich people.
    I hate Wall St. rich people and monopolists... although, hate is perhaps too strong an emotion. I'm actually quite indifferent about it, for the most part. I get emotional here and there, but then calm down rather quickly.

    Don't, ever, presume I will defend any "right to be rich", however. And I will never cease to point out that rich people have a lot easier time staying rich than poor people stopping to be poor. Tax dodging and loopholes are a thing.

    Once in a bluemoon someone comes up with a crazy idea of just deleting all tax laws and replacing them with "30% tax on everyone and everything".

    How'd you feel about that? Remember, property tax is already a thing, so I don't see a problem with a "stock tax".
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  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Or I can see your false dilemma, and will now point out that tax brackets exist and we're talking about a wealth tax, not an ownership tax.

    Lying about what's being discussed isn't an argument. It's deliberate bad faith.
    Like I said, it's always easier to make someone else pay that "some."

    Bezos' wealth is almost all tied to his ownership. That's the fucking point. By attacking his wealth, you are going after his ownership.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Man, while I agree with you on the issue of taxing increased stock prices, just because they disagree with you doesn't mean they hate rich people.
    Except, they are demonstrating that constantly.

    I mean... perfect timing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I hate Wall St. rich people and monopolists... although, hate is perhaps too strong an emotion. I'm actually quite indifferent about it, for the most part. I get emotional here and there, but then calm down rather quickly.

    Don't, ever, presume I will defend any "right to be rich", however. And I will never cease to point out that rich people have a lot easier time staying rich than poor people stopping to be poor. Tax dodging and loopholes are a thing.

    Once in a bluemoon someone comes up with a crazy idea of just deleting all tax laws and replacing them with "30% tax on everyone and everything".

    How'd you feel about that? Remember, property tax is already a thing, so I don't see a problem with a "stock tax".
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I hate Wall St. rich people and monopolists... although, hate is perhaps too strong an emotion. I'm actually quite indifferent about it, for the most part. I get emotional here and there, but then calm down rather quickly.

    Don't, ever, presume I will defend any "right to be rich", however. And I will never cease to point out that rich people have a lot easier time staying rich than poor people stopping to be poor. Tax dodging and loopholes are a thing.

    Once in a bluemoon someone comes up with a crazy idea of just deleting all tax laws and replacing them with "30% tax on everyone and everything".

    How'd you feel about that? Remember, property tax is already a thing, so I don't see a problem with a "stock tax".
    My issue is that this is all to push for more and more government, which is my major problem, The attack on individual liberty is also the issue.

    Those radical ideas still push those same problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  3. #543
    Except, they are demonstrating that constantly.
    that's the dementia talking.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by uuuhname View Post
    that's the dementia talking.
    You find that evidence, yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I hate Wall St. rich people and monopolists... although, hate is perhaps too strong an emotion. I'm actually quite indifferent about it, for the most part. I get emotional here and there, but then calm down rather quickly.

    Don't, ever, presume I will defend any "right to be rich", however. And I will never cease to point out that rich people have a lot easier time staying rich than poor people stopping to be poor. Tax dodging and loopholes are a thing.

    Once in a bluemoon someone comes up with a crazy idea of just deleting all tax laws and replacing them with "30% tax on everyone and everything".

    How'd you feel about that? Remember, property tax is already a thing, so I don't see a problem with a "stock tax".
    God damn, if only you had read the next comment...
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Like I said, it's always easier to make someone else pay that "some."

    Bezos' wealth is almost all tied to his ownership. That's the fucking point. By attacking his wealth, you are going after his ownership.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Except, they are demonstrating that constantly.

    I mean... perfect timing:
    Ok, so here's the thing... maybe it's a cultural difference.

    In Germany we have a saying "Ownership obligates."

    That's essentially the reason why land property is being taxed. The idea is that you may own the land, but your land is protected by the national military, police, fire department, road access etc. All kinds of public services that you don't pay directly (at least not here). But simply by owning them, you enter an obligation to pay for society to take care of these things (and... you know, extend these things to your land as well). But it even goes further than that, your ownership obligates you to use it for the betterment of society. Or that's the idea at least. It's not just a quid pro quo, although that is a big chunk of it, it's also making you responsible to use your ownership to improve society. Paying taxes is one way to do that.

    Now, the argument can (and should!) be made that the same is true for stocks. Your ownership requires institutions like an FCC to exist, banks that you work with need to be bailed out, you are conducting your business on the economy that is protected and controlled by a national Government. I dare say "Ownership obligates." applies to stock as well. And therefore, I can totally see stock taxing being a thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    God damn, if only you had read the next comment...
    I have read it. A) I'm not shy of disagreeing with a poster, so why would I start now? B) I have modified the projection you put on me quite drastically from hate to indifferent. You chose to ignore that at your own peril. And now you've made a fool of yourself.
    Last edited by Slant; 2021-06-09 at 04:26 PM.
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  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You find that evidence, yet?
    how's that job at Little saint James'? the wifi good?

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ok, so here's the thing... maybe it's a cultural difference.

    In Germany we have a saying "Ownership obligates."

    That's essentially the reason why land property is being taxed. The idea is that you may own the land, but your land is protected by the national military, police, fire department, road access etc. All kinds of public services that you don't pay directly (at least not here).

    Now, the argument can (and should!) be made that the same is true for stocks. Your ownership requires institutions like an FCC to exist, banks that you work with need to be bailed out, you are conducting your business on the economy that is protected and controlled by a national Government. I dare say "Ownership obligates." applies to stock as well. And therefore, I can totally see stock taxing being a thing.
    It is a cultural thing, because land is still taxed here, this is a wealth tax.

    Stocks are taxed. When they are sold. It's already a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It is a cultural thing, because land is still taxed here, this is a wealth tax.

    Stocks are taxed. When they are sold. It's already a thing.
    Sales tax is not what I was talking about. I was talking about ownership tax.
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  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Except, they are demonstrating that constantly.

    I mean... perfect timing:
    Well, I don't hate rich people and even I can see the benefit of a Wealth tax, I mainly don't agree with it because of situations where you are stripping away what they earned and I believe that the wealth issue can be much better handled through inheritance taxes when they pass it on. I see the direct wealth taxes as largely just too ham fisted of an approach to handle the issue.

    Just tax it when they sell it or give it away, tax it when it pays dividends, make it where their is no statute of limitations for tax fraud and make them pay it back even if it is decades after their death (with interest), and make it where any publicly traded company must have labor make up at least 40% of the board so they have a say at the table.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
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    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  10. #550
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Like I said, it's always easier to make someone else pay that "some."
    It isn't about deflecting obligation. If I were making that much, I'd owe more back, too. If you want to make sure I'm making that kind of income, we can discuss whether my attitude changes; that would make me a hypocrite, if it did.

    Bezos' wealth is almost all tied to his ownership. That's the fucking point. By attacking his wealth, you are going after his ownership.
    You haven't explained why that's a problem.


  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    My issue is that this is all to push for more and more government, which is my major problem, The attack on individual liberty is also the issue.

    Those radical ideas still push those same problems.
    And because I almost missed this... You want to protect individual liberty of rich people at the cost of poor people's liberties. Those delivery drivers pissing in bottles? They have their liberties infringed upon BIG TIME. But that's ok, cos they're poor people. You don't care about them. But you're sitting here defending Bezos against me saying a wealth cap of 1 billion dollars would be an interesting idea to explore based on... what? Is he going to starve on a billion dollars? Doubt.

    Edit: Also, re-read the post about "Ownership obligates." I added some more context. Not that it would change your point of view, but I did my part.
    Last edited by Slant; 2021-06-09 at 04:31 PM.
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  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And because I almost missed this... You want to protect individual liberty of rich people at the cost of poor people's liberties. Those delivery drivers pissing in bottles? They have their liberties infringed upon BIG TIME. But that's ok, cos they're poor people. You don't care about them. But you're sitting here defending Bezos against me saying a wealth cap of 1 billion dollars would be an interesting idea to explore based on... what? Is he going to starve on a billion dollars? Doubt.
    It's worse than that. His ridiculous ideas of cutting spending in social security, and Medicare/Medicaid, all confirm his hatred of poor, elderly, and the disabled... Of course perhaps he just wants to punish them fir being what they are.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    My god this thread moves fast, every time I come back it is 2 to 3 pages longer.

    Sorry, but if a companies value goes up by a billion dollars, that doesn't mean the owner of the company made a billion dollars, it means that IF HE SOLD IT, he could sell it for a billion dollars more than he could previously.

    The increase in a companies value should not mean an increase in income tax nor should it going down give them a tax break. They have just as much stock as they did before as a percentage of ownership in the company.

    The money on it should be taxed when it is sold as income (Minus what they paid to purchase it to begin with) and the dividends off it should be taxed as income. The only time it should be treated as actual income for tax purposes is when it actually changes hands whether through them selling it or another inheriting it or anything along those lines. But it shouldn't be taxed directly until it changes hands.

    We aren't talking about an income tax at that point, we are talking about a wealth tax. And those are best handled through estate taxes when they pass away to prevent dynasties or at least slow them down (Unless we discover ways to make people live for centuries). Also, make it where their is no statue of limitations for offenses that attempt to hide the transfers so, if they do like Trumps dad did and funnel to them, even decades after their death, the money would still be owed in taxes (Plus interest) from the family that knowingly went along with it.
    Here's a supplementary article:
    https://www.propublica.org/article/y...-a-billionaire

    This one focuses primarily on income and payroll taxes and how they can be avoided:
    "Large charitable donations reduce taxable income. Other tax-saving approaches are more arcane: everything from taking deductions for things like interest payments to various credits for business owners."
    "Using their vast holdings of stock, they can make large charitable grants. This achieves the twin feat of avoiding any tax on the stock’s growth while getting tax deductions for the full value."
    "The richest also can choose when to take income, matching up their deductions to reduce their bills."
    This last point is particularly telling. Can you choose when to take income? Very few people can with any regularity and you won't be getting multi-billion dollar lines of credit with your burgeoning stock value used as collateral.
    A lot of deductions don't exist because they're "fair". They exist because the wealthy are more able to change the tax codes to their liking.

    Finally, this thread really isn't about a wealth tax. Its a suggested remedy. It seems to work for Switzerland which has double the per capita billionaires the US has.

    If a wealth tax were to exist it would likely be similar to what the self-employed do during income tax time. The self-employed are expected to save up money because they normally don't pay out regular tax deductions. When income tax comes they use their savings to pay their taxes. Similarly the wealthy would be expected to save up for wealth tax time. This is commonly referred to as responsibility.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Here's a supplementary article:
    https://www.propublica.org/article/y...-a-billionaire

    This one focuses primarily on income and payroll taxes and how they can be avoided:
    "Large charitable donations reduce taxable income. Other tax-saving approaches are more arcane: everything from taking deductions for things like interest payments to various credits for business owners."
    "Using their vast holdings of stock, they can make large charitable grants. This achieves the twin feat of avoiding any tax on the stock’s growth while getting tax deductions for the full value."
    "The richest also can choose when to take income, matching up their deductions to reduce their bills."
    This last point is particularly telling. Can you choose when to take income? Very few people can with any regularity and you won't be getting multi-billion dollar lines of credit with your burgeoning stock value used as collateral.
    A lot of deductions don't exist because they're "fair". They exist because the wealthy are more able to change the tax codes to their liking.

    Finally, this thread really isn't about a wealth tax. Its a suggested remedy. It seems to work for Switzerland which has double the per capita billionaires the US has.

    If a wealth tax were to exist it would likely be similar to what the self-employed do during income tax time. The self-employed are expected to save up money because they normally don't pay out regular tax deductions. When income tax comes they use their savings to pay their taxes. Similarly the wealthy would be expected to save up for wealth tax time. This is commonly referred to as responsibility.
    I agree that the loopholes need to be addressed and they shouldn't be allowed to avoid them. I honestly am a fan of Sanders plan to tax all income as income regardless of source after $250,000 a year which would help lots of that. I was speaking just in the fashion of directly taxing people for the value of their stocks going up.

    The issue with the direct wealth tax, if they had one, it would HAVE to only be like 1-2% tops with a large deductible, as what they are worth isn't the same as their cash on hand. And all other taxes owed would have to be deductible toward this.

    And even at 1% (Without the deductible), for someone worth 1 billion dollars, that is still 10 million a year in tax.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Sales tax is not what I was talking about. I was talking about ownership tax.
    And that's the problem, it would be double taxation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  16. #556
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And that's the problem, it would be double taxation.
    "Double taxation" is taxing the same transaction twice.

    Capital gains and income taxes are not double taxation.


  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Well, I don't hate rich people and even I can see the benefit of a Wealth tax, I mainly don't agree with it because of situations where you are stripping away what they earned and I believe that the wealth issue can be much better handled through inheritance taxes when they pass it on. I see the direct wealth taxes as largely just too ham fisted of an approach to handle the issue.

    Just tax it when they sell it or give it away, tax it when it pays dividends, make it where their is no statute of limitations for tax fraud and make them pay it back even if it is decades after their death (with interest), and make it where any publicly traded company must have labor make up at least 40% of the board so they have a say at the table.
    The benefits are that people would have more of other people's money to pay for the shit they want.

    The downside is that whole liberty thing.

    I think the current system of taxation upon sales and dividends is far superior.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It isn't about deflecting obligation. If I were making that much, I'd owe more back, too. If you want to make sure I'm making that kind of income, we can discuss whether my attitude changes; that would make me a hypocrite, if it did.



    You haven't explained why that's a problem.
    But, you know yo9u'll never make that much, so you are staking a claim with no risk involved.

    That's like me saying if I were an Olympic swimmer, I should be taxed into oblivion.

    The problem is with liberty, and your attack on it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And because I almost missed this... You want to protect individual liberty of rich people at the cost of poor people's liberties. Those delivery drivers pissing in bottles? They have their liberties infringed upon BIG TIME. But that's ok, cos they're poor people. You don't care about them. But you're sitting here defending Bezos against me saying a wealth cap of 1 billion dollars would be an interesting idea to explore based on... what? Is he going to starve on a billion dollars? Doubt.

    Edit: Also, re-read the post about "Ownership obligates." I added some more context. Not that it would change your point of view, but I did my part.
    Nope, that's just you lying. I'm trying to protect everyone's liberty, not just my own.

    So, ban pissing in bottles. Push a law for that, instead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's worse than that. His ridiculous ideas of cutting spending in social security, and Medicare/Medicaid, all confirm his hatred of poor, elderly, and the disabled... Of course perhaps he just wants to punish them fir being what they are.
    You mean where I called for stopping increasing spending for 5 years?

    Yeah, you were outraged at such ideas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Here's a supplementary article:
    https://www.propublica.org/article/y...-a-billionaire

    This one focuses primarily on income and payroll taxes and how they can be avoided:
    "Large charitable donations reduce taxable income. Other tax-saving approaches are more arcane: everything from taking deductions for things like interest payments to various credits for business owners."
    "Using their vast holdings of stock, they can make large charitable grants. This achieves the twin feat of avoiding any tax on the stock’s growth while getting tax deductions for the full value."
    "The richest also can choose when to take income, matching up their deductions to reduce their bills."
    This last point is particularly telling. Can you choose when to take income? Very few people can with any regularity and you won't be getting multi-billion dollar lines of credit with your burgeoning stock value used as collateral.
    A lot of deductions don't exist because they're "fair". They exist because the wealthy are more able to change the tax codes to their liking.

    Finally, this thread really isn't about a wealth tax. Its a suggested remedy. It seems to work for Switzerland which has double the per capita billionaires the US has.

    If a wealth tax were to exist it would likely be similar to what the self-employed do during income tax time. The self-employed are expected to save up money because they normally don't pay out regular tax deductions. When income tax comes they use their savings to pay their taxes. Similarly the wealthy would be expected to save up for wealth tax time. This is commonly referred to as responsibility.
    So, make it so charitable donations are not tax deductible. Hell, get rid of all deductions and credits. Make it truly even. No more mortgage income deductions, no more Child tax credits.

    Or, do you like those loopholes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The benefits are that people would have more of other people's money to pay for the shit they want.

    The downside is that whole liberty thing.

    I think the current system of taxation upon sales and dividends is far superior.

    - - - Updated - - -



    But, you know yo9u'll never make that much, so you are staking a claim with no risk involved.

    That's like me saying if I were an Olympic swimmer, I should be taxed into oblivion.

    The problem is with liberty, and your attack on it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nope, that's just you lying. I'm trying to protect everyone's liberty, not just my own.

    So, ban pissing in bottles. Push a law for that, instead.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You mean where I called for stopping increasing spending for 5 years?

    Yeah, you were outraged at such ideas.
    Curious how you are usually anti fascist while now defending a system that breeds inequality thus pushing more and more people to the extreme of the political spectrum.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Double taxation" is taxing the same transaction twice.

    Capital gains and income taxes are not double taxation.
    It's taxing it twice on the same product, once while owning it, and once while selling it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Curious how you are usually anti fascist while now defending a system that breeds inequality thus pushing more and more people to the extreme of the political spectrum.
    That's because you're not paying attention.

    I'm against fascists, and supporting liberty and capitalism. Everything else is on you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  20. #560
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It's taxing it twice on the same product, once while owning it, and once while selling it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    That's because you're not paying attention.

    I'm against fascists, and supporting liberty and capitalism. Everything else is on you.
    Though capitalism as it is breeds inequality. I am being practical while you are being an ideologist.

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