1. #861
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I do know what I'm talking about, you were discussing lobbying.

    I pointed to other lobbies that would be crushed.
    I'm sorry, that was badly quoted. I was actually responding to the points you made about Endus and how he uh, what did you say "disagrees with the premise of ownership".

    Which he wasn't. Which social market economy isn't about. That's you not understanding what Endus is representing here. It's not socialism. It's quite literally a LIBERAL-socialist market economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

    Look it up. Read it. Try to understand it. Ask questions if you don't understand something, THEN come back and tell Endus he's dismissing the idea of ownership. If you feel brave.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  2. #862
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That is literal reality, and I was saying I support that economic reality.
    This is, again, begging the question, then.

    You've yet to explain why you support that.


  3. #863
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is, again, begging the question, then.

    You've yet to explain why you support that.
    Nope, I did state it, because I support self-determination and liberty.

    That was covered, many times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  4. #864
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I'm sorry, that was badly quoted. I was actually responding to the points you made about Endus and how he uh, what did you say "disagrees with the premise of ownership".

    Which he wasn't. Which social market economy isn't about. That's you not understanding what Endus is representing here. It's not socialism. It's quite literally a LIBERAL-socialist market economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism

    Look it up. Read it. Try to understand it. Ask questions if you don't understand something, THEN come back and tell Endus he's dismissing the idea of ownership. If you feel brave.
    I lean a LITTLE more into the "maybe companies should all be worker collectives rather than privately owned" side of things, but otherwise you're pretty much there.


  5. #865
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That literally just talks about having lots of drivers...

    Are you fucking serious? Don't just google it, and expect the first thing on there to actually back the narrative.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm not taunting you, I'm calling you on your bullshit. You disagree with the premise of ownership, so you want to whine that my argument cannot apply, because you disagree with ownership.

    That's like trying to argue the election with a Trumpster who thinks he won.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Probably the same thing that would happen to BLM, gay rights, abortion rights, and many other things.

    It would be a massacre.
    It’s hard data. You honestly think his fleet of drivers drives LESS than average Joe? Seriously?

  6. #866
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    It’s hard data. You honestly think his fleet of drivers drives LESS than average Joe? Seriously?
    Once again, I stated the overall narrative is extremely difficult to quantify, which is the point.

    They may drive more than the average driver, but so does an UBER driver. The companies also pay much, much more in taxes.

    So, that leads to me saying such a narrative is extremely difficult to quantify.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  7. #867
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I lean a LITTLE more into the "maybe companies should all be worker collectives rather than privately owned" side of things, but otherwise you're pretty much there.
    Ah, really. A little more left than I assumed. Interesting. We're parting ways pretty much in the centre region then, I don't think a collective can make sound business decisions and prefer a more top down business model like we currently have. BUT, I absolutely love strengthening the worker collective to a point that the CEO can't do with them as he pleases. I am biased of course, but I think in Germany we have gotten a somewhat workable balance going. It's not pretty in that the labor council in a company has to agree to hiring and firing and that makes some things awkward for the company, but by and large it works amazingly well and keeps the workers in the loop. Especially because the worker's council has a lot of rights that can be enforced in court. Very nice. I think you might like it.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  8. #868
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    That's not quantifying it, that's giving me random numbers that are not actually based on reality.
    sorry you want a statistical analysis then go fucking online and look at the ones that give you Nickle and dime level analysis. You know the ones you've probably seen already a few dozen times reported on.

    BTW name one part that is not based on reality or has not happened specifically to amazon. i'll wait

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post


    Once again, this is your guys' narrative, so let's see some actual quantifiable evidence.

    Considering how much they pay in taxes, I look forward to you providing it.
    hahahahah.....how....much....they....pay in taxes......i mean its right in the first fucking post.


    oh god i didn't realize you were not serious about this topic and were just playing around being the ever annoying contrarian

    whelp time to bow out since you are not at all serious about this topic.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  9. #869
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Ottawa, ON
    Posts
    68,867
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Ah, really. A little more left than I assumed. Interesting. We're parting ways pretty much in the centre region then, I don't think a collective can make sound business decisions and prefer a more top down business model like we currently have. BUT, I absolutely love strengthening the worker collective to a point that the CEO can't do with them as he pleases. I am biased of course, but I think in Germany we have gotten a somewhat workable balance going. It's not pretty in that the labor council in a company has to agree to hiring and firing and that makes some things awkward for the company, but by and large it works amazingly well and keeps the workers in the loop. Especially because the worker's council has a lot of rights that can be enforced in court. Very nice. I think you might like it.
    For the sake of argument, Amazon has like 800k employees. And a worker collective wouldn't have to be equally-distributed. The basic idea is that the only way to own voting shares is to be an employee, where even the lowest employee has at least one share. Maybe that's 1-2 shares for nearly all the 800k employees. Maybe Jeff Bezos as CEO has 200,000 shares (to exaggerate beyond what's likely reasonable). He's making WAY more in dividends, and has a WAY bigger say than anyone else, but trying to implement abusive policies for staff like peeing in bottles to keep up with quotas, that stuff is gonna get outvoted (in theory) by the much larger staff component.

    More complex issues are where you'd engage in some messaging to convince your staff to vote with you, or rely on their disagreement to leave you the big swing vote anyway, but the worst abuses should (in theory) no longer be possible. If the company explodes in value, so do those employee shares; everyone gains. Not equally, but proportionally. You've still got rich CEOs, they're just maybe not as rich, and maybe the best way to wealth is empowering your workers so they push harder, and they all share in the incentive to perform because they all enjoy the benefits of increased share value.

    You'd need some elements for non-voting shares in there too, particularly for staff who retire, but those don't necessarily have to be transferrable.


  10. #870
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I don't think corporate personhood (as in them being legal entities that can sign contracts etc) is the issue. The issue is that none of what their CEOs do is considered criminal and thus they're never punished.
    Here in the US corporations hold similar rights as the individual. This means that they can create pacs, lobbying firms and money buys access to Congress. Of course an individual should also have access. But the reality has Joe Average working 9-5 and any access is limited to flunkies. It cost a congress person thousands of dollars a day to keep his/her seat. And that money isn't coming from the Joe Average person. In the 70s there were a couple hundred of lobbying organizations. There are over 10k now. Many of which are law firms that grab every former congressman since they know the ins and outs of DC and congressional committees... "Corporate personhood" was the first step in this cancerous relationship. Libertarians were always a joke, and yet somehow they now have a Senate seat.

  11. #871
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Once again, I stated the overall narrative is extremely difficult to quantify, which is the point.

    They may drive more than the average driver, but so does an UBER driver. The companies also pay much, much more in taxes.

    So, that leads to me saying such a narrative is extremely difficult to quantify.
    Amazon pays much much more in taxes? Amazon paid no federal taxes on $11.2Bn in profits… Stop lying. And it’s easy to derive that Amazon benefits more from the roads than any individual average Joe. You just choose to lie because it doesn’t fit your corporatist narrative.

  12. #872
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    For the sake of argument, Amazon has like 800k employees. And a worker collective wouldn't have to be equally-distributed. The basic idea is that the only way to own voting shares is to be an employee, where even the lowest employee has at least one share. Maybe that's 1-2 shares for nearly all the 800k employees. Maybe Jeff Bezos as CEO has 200,000 shares (to exaggerate beyond what's likely reasonable). He's making WAY more in dividends, and has a WAY bigger say than anyone else, but trying to implement abusive policies for staff like peeing in bottles to keep up with quotas, that stuff is gonna get outvoted (in theory) by the much larger staff component.

    More complex issues are where you'd engage in some messaging to convince your staff to vote with you, or rely on their disagreement to leave you the big swing vote anyway, but the worst abuses should (in theory) no longer be possible. If the company explodes in value, so do those employee shares; everyone gains. Not equally, but proportionally. You've still got rich CEOs, they're just maybe not as rich, and maybe the best way to wealth is empowering your workers so they push harder, and they all share in the incentive to perform because they all enjoy the benefits of increased share value.

    You'd need some elements for non-voting shares in there too, particularly for staff who retire, but those don't necessarily have to be transferrable.
    Hmm, it's an interesting concept. Not sure I agree with all of it, but it's one way to prevent the abuse (hopefully). Personally that (hopefully) is not strong enough for me and I'd rather have a robust labor protection system in place that can be enforced by courts. I wonder, who's more leftist now, you or me... haha.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  13. #873
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Amazon pays much much more in taxes? Amazon paid no federal taxes on $11.2Bn in profits… Stop lying. And it’s easy to derive that Amazon benefits more from the roads than any individual average Joe. You just choose to lie because it doesn’t fit your corporatist narrative.
    even the gas tax they paid was easily countered by the 52-59 cents a mile write off and depreciation/et all write downs.
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  14. #874
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Amazon pays much much more in taxes? Amazon paid no federal taxes on $11.2Bn in profits… Stop lying. And it’s easy to derive that Amazon benefits more from the roads than any individual average Joe. You just choose to lie because it doesn’t fit your corporatist narrative.
    That's funny, cos Amazon basically pays no tax in the EU, either... https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...0m-eu-tax-bill

    Where do they pay their taxes!?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Here in the US corporations hold similar rights as the individual. This means that they can create pacs, lobbying firms and money buys access to Congress. Of course an individual should also have access. But the reality has Joe Average working 9-5 and any access is limited to flunkies. It cost a congress person thousands of dollars a day to keep his/her seat. And that money isn't coming from the Joe Average person. In the 70s there were a couple hundred of lobbying organizations. There are over 10k now. Many of which are law firms that grab every former congressman since they know the ins and outs of DC and congressional committees... "Corporate personhood" was the first step in this cancerous relationship. Libertarians were always a joke, and yet somehow they now have a Senate seat.
    Hmm, I'm still trying to gauge what you're explaining with the German concepts I'm familiar with. In Germany companies can sign contracts (ie. the CEO signs, but he's not entering obligations himself, it's the company that's entering obligations) and conduct business as a legal entity. But they get no voting rights and other things that you would attribute to natural persons (ie. people).

    We do have lobbying, but for some reason it's not nearly as perverted as it is in the US. We have what we call "industrial representatives". A typical example would be the "pharma representation" representing all our global players in big pharma, then the same for our automakers and so on. And they do get "private" 1:1 time with the chancellor. But it's not like they get to dictate anything to her, they can ask and half the time she's lecturing them on how they fucked up the economy. I wonder why the US system seems so prone to lobbyism.
    Users with <20 posts and ignored shitposters are automatically invisible. Find out how to do that here and help clean up MMO-OT!
    PSA: Being a volunteer is no excuse to make a shite job of it.

  15. #875
    The Unstoppable Force PACOX's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    ██████
    Posts
    23,453
    The dominant groups within either party aren't actually upset up income disparities. That the wealth accumulated by the top 0.5% could vastly improve the lives of the bottom. They only care that they feel like the rich are leaving them in behind in their disposed millionaire fantasy. I don't care who is on that list or whst they make. I only care about the policies and culture that enable them. Good for them but how is everyone else doing?

    Resident Cosplay Progressive

  16. #876
    Capitalism is like so bad you guys. Let's talk about how bad it is on Twitter.

    *Sips starbucks while browsing junk on Amazon on an Iphone*

  17. #877
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    Capitalism is like so bad you guys. Let's talk about how bad it is on Twitter.

    *Sips starbucks while browsing junk on Amazon on an Iphone*
    Man, it's depressing how many Mr. Gotcha's actually exist in reality and not just in a webcomic.

  18. #878
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Seagrove Beach, FL
    Posts
    6,710
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    Capitalism is like so bad you guys. Let's talk about how bad it is on Twitter.

    *Sips starbucks while browsing junk on Amazon on an Iphone*
    Imagine being a cartoon.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
    What of the pious, the pure of heart, the peaceful, the meek, the mourning, and the merciful? All doomed, all doomed

  19. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    Capitalism is like so bad you guys. Let's talk about how bad it is on Twitter.

    *Sips starbucks while browsing junk on Amazon on an Iphone*
    You realize you have become a meme?



    Can you you try and be a bit more original? Have your ever tried to have a thought of your own, instead of endlessly regurgitating some dumbass meme worthy talking points?

  20. #880
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Anyone can easily quantify that when they remember public education is a thing.

    Bezos derives significant benefit from our tax dollars ensuring his employees aren't illiterate.
    Wait, are you saying Jeff Bezos should be paying for the public education his employees received before being hired by Amazon?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •