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  1. #1541
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    I replied to you roughly half a dozen times about this claim.

    One more time.

    The fundamental problem is that an economic system was created, intentionally, where they are never actually required to sell a single one of their stocks, but they still have access to as much liquidity as they want via zero interest borrowing. Furthermore through various other loopholes they can still write off even the little taxable liquidity they do access.

    Also, I've seen you pulling up the 401k comparison again after dropping it before.

    One more time, for that too.

    A stock portfolio and your 401k package are in no way comparable. How much untaxable income you can stash into your 401k is already limited by the government. There's a literal annual cap.
    You can take a loan against your stocks, your home, and your assets... just like them. Imagine buying a car, financing it, and having to pay the value of that loan as an income...

    Should you be required to sell your house in order to get a loan?

    Fuck no.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    You have no point. You are literally just responding to people with nonsense oneliners, making up shit as you go along. You're a joke man. :P
    I'm not the guy who didn't even know what income, salaries, and capital gains are.

    I'm not the one who advocated for communism, nationalism, and thebstate takeover of all companies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  2. #1542
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The fact that he thinks he’s “owning” people is pretty sad. Not unexpected from a libertarian though.
    I wouldn't use the label libertarian too much, it seems to ambigious, all kinds of sides claim it and all kinds of sides use it just to insult the other side... it's a meaningless word as far as US politics go, IMO.
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  3. #1543
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Machismo crazy logic: "Hey, so people need water to survive!" Machismo proceeds to drown people "But you said they need water to survive!"
    You've long ago left any civil discourse on the matter. Don't you think it's time to bugger off and... I don't know, talk to your dog or something?
    Yeah...he always does that. He'll take your statement either add hyperbole, alter it, even change it, then he'll go back to to your original statement and claim; "See, you did say that.." It is among the most dishonest pieces of shit he and his sort do.

  4. #1544
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Yeah...he always does that. He'll take your statement either add hyperbole, alter it, even change it, then he'll go back to to your original statement and claim; "See, you did say that.." It is among the most dishonest pieces of shit he and his sort do.
    You mean like all your baseless claims against me?

    Man, the irony is getting a bit too thick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  5. #1545
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm not the guy who didn't even know what income, salaries, and capital gains are.

    I'm not the one who advocated for communism, nationalism, and thebstate takeover of all companies.
    For someone who gets hung up on semantics like you, it's incredible how loose you are with your perception of what was said.
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  6. #1546
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You can take a loan against your stocks, your home, and your assets... just like them.
    And I have to pay an annual tax on most of those non liquid assets.

    And if I can't do so, I have to liquidate some assets to pay those taxes.

    Why the fuck are stocks intrinsically exceptional? What makes them such special fucking snowflakes?


    Should you be required to sell your house in order to get a loan?
    I never said they'd need to sell their stocks to get a loan.

    Im just saying stocks shouldn't be an untaxable asset if you can effectively treat it as a liquid asset.

  7. #1547
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    Why the fuck are stocks intrinsically exceptional? What makes them such special fucking snowflakes?
    This is the core point he's trying to avoid for 50 pages or so now. Not very skillfully, I might add.
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  8. #1548
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    For someone who gets hung up on semantics like you, it's incredible how loose you are with your perception of what was said.
    Their entire argument ts are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economic principles.

    That's like someone who doesn't know what an outnor an inning is... trying to mock people for not knowing about baseball.

    Its not semantics, it's ignorance.

    When they were corrected, they persisted with that false information.

    That made them lies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  9. #1549
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    He’ll advocate for untested vaccines and treatments that cost whatever makes the most profits for the pharmaceutical companies. Because that’s what he wants out of life. Only the rich get access to basic healthcare services and the poor can get fucked as they live in a dorm next to the company store because they can’t afford the tolls required to live off site.
    Not just the next pandemic. I'm looking at the mega drought that's hitting areas hard. (It's supposed to get worse) Conversely the weather in the south that is slated to be more extreme. The jet stream that kept the cooler northern air in the upper half of the US has weakened and tirnado alley is likely to be less an alley, and more a highway.. Another recession that will punch in predicted 4yrs from now.

  10. #1550
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Not just the next pandemic. I'm looking at the mega drought that's hitting areas hard. (It's supposed to get worse) Conversely the weather in the south that is slated to be more extreme. The jet stream that kept the cooler northern air in the upper half of the US has weakened and tirnado alley is likely to be less an alley, and more a highway.. Another recession that will punch in predicted 4yrs from now.
    “Why don’t they just buy water from the great lakes?”

  11. #1551
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Their entire argument ts are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of basic economic principles.

    That's like someone who doesn't know what an outnor an inning is... trying to mock people for not knowing about baseball.

    Its not semantics, it's ignorance.

    When they were corrected, they persisted with that false information.

    That made them lies.
    Their argument is not actually hanging on those basic economic principles. They are not misunderstanding anything. They are QUESTIONING those basic principles themselves and maybe if they warrant a change to those principles. See, you haven't even started the discussion ON THEIR TERMS, yet. You're still at the stage where they talk to you and you don't even grasp the full weight of what it is they're saying. They've been very patient so far, despite you slinging mud in all directions for two days now... I think it's time you actually acknowledge what they are saying, or look like a fool... your choice.
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  12. #1552
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihalik View Post
    And I have to pay an annual tax on most of those non liquid assets.

    And if I can't do so, I have to liquidate some assets to pay those taxes.

    Why the fuck are stocks intrinsically exceptional? What makes them such special fucking snowflakes?




    I never said they'd need to sell their stocks to get a loan.

    Im just saying stocks shouldn't be an untaxable asset if you can effectively treat it as a liquid asset.
    You pay an annual tax on your stocks? Nope, they are handled via capital gains, when sold.

    So, are you saying you want your stocks taxed, both for holding them, and when selling them?

    And yes, that would also apply to your 401k.

    The federal government does not tax your assets, like your home, or your car. That's what the states and localities do. And yes, the next argument is going to be that the states and localities should tax stock assets. When that happens, all those wealthy people will simply say those are elsewhere (and you cannot argue they are not), and the only people on the hook, will be the people who don't have the knowledge to simply base their portfolios out of Texas.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Their argument is not actually hanging on those basic economic principles. They are not misunderstanding anything. They are QUESTIONING those basic principles themselves and maybe if they warrant a change to those principles. See, you haven't even started the discussion ON THEIR TERMS, yet. You're still at the stage where they talk to you and you don't even grasp the full weight of what it is they're saying. They've been very patient so far, despite you slinging mud in all directions for two days now... I think it's time you actually acknowledge what they are saying, or look like a fool... your choice.
    Yes, they swear it's income, it is not.

    They swore that Bezos was getting stocks as part of his salary. He was not.

    They swore that capital gains meant how much value your stock has. It does not.

    They tried to justify their actions based on those falsehoods.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-06-11 at 04:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  13. #1553
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, they swear it's income, it is not.

    They swore that Bezos was getting stocks as part of his salary. He was not.

    They swore that capital gains meant how much value your stock has.

    They tried to justify their actions based on those falsehoods.
    Eeeep, wrong. Try again.

    See, I told you you haven't even begun the actual discussion, yet. You're so blissfully unaware of what they are actually saying that all you have is semantics. I bet it must be confusing for you. "Why are they talking back to me? This doesn't make any sense, even a three year old understands these concepts!" and yet, here we are... you still not getting it, and most of us puzzled as to what the fuck you're on about.

    Doesn't stop you from making big claims about what other people are saying, though. I literally spelled it out for you in my last post, and yet you still don't get it. It's actually pretty amusing.
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  14. #1554
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Eeeep, wrong. Try again.

    See, I told you you haven't even begun the actual discussion, yet. You're so blissfully unaware of what they are actually saying that all you have is semantics. I bet it must be confusing for you. "Why are they talking back to me? This doesn't make any sense, even a three year old understands these concepts!" and yet, here we are... you still not getting it, and most of us puzzled as to what the fuck you're on about.

    Doesn't stop you from making big claims about what other people are saying, though. I literally spelled it out for you in my last post, and yet you still don't get it. It's actually pretty amusing.
    Yes, it is literally based on those falsehoods, I have provided the quotes numerous times.

    Is this the part where you beg me to look at the spirit of what they say, and not what they are actually saying? You get pissed when I take them literally, and you get pissed when I take them generally. Make up your fucking mind.

    Very well, the spirit is that they hate the wealthy, and they want to punish them, because they are selfish authoritarians.

    Why are they trying to argue economics, when they don't understand those simple concepts? It's not my fault they are ignorant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  15. #1555
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You pay an annual tax on your stocks? Nope, they are handled via capital gains, when sold.

    So, are you saying you want your stocks taxed, both for holding them, and when selling them?

    And yes, that would also apply to your 401k.
    if you have over 50 million. What part of this arent you getting. Do you have 50million in a 401k? holy fuck.

  16. #1556
    Quote Originally Posted by jonnysensible View Post
    if you have over 50 million. What part of this arent you getting. Do you have 50million in a 401k? holy fuck.
    So, all the complaints about not wanting loopholes, double standards, and tax dodges is clearly disingenuous.

    For reference, I assume you are specifically talking about Warren:

    https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/ultra-millionaire-tax

    So, take Bezos.

    He's worth 190-ish billion.

    $180 billion is tied up in stock. That's right over 5%. That means he would literally have to sell every non-stock asset, just to pay for those taxes, for just one year. What happens the next year? The next?

    The math is simple, he has no other option, other than to sell stock in his own company, the one he founded. It's quite literally forcing people out of their own companies.
    Last edited by Machismo; 2021-06-11 at 04:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  17. #1557
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    You can take a loan against your stocks, your home, and your assets... just like them. Imagine buying a car, financing it, and having to pay the value of that loan as an income...

    Should you be required to sell your house in order to get a loan?

    Fuck no.
    most people really can't take a loan against their stocks becasue most people don't have enough invested to be able to do so. Just a quick google can tell you most firms allow only up to half of the value of your stocks can be taken on as a loan. Many firms require a minimum of 100k in collateral to even qualify. If you look up the average amount a person has invested in non retirement accounts, most won't meet that requirement until their 50s and that is only among those that HAVE investment accounts.

    So its not really accurate to say that your average US citizen has access to those types of loans, especially ones with very little or no interest. Plus this discussion is limited in scope to only loans that are made to circumvent paying capital gains on unrealized gains. That is a rich persons game. Its not something your average person has the ability to do. its a loophole the super rich have available to avoid paying taxes on income becasue it doesn't technically count as income.

    Its why someone like Bezos can claim a child tax credit while his personal wealth grows by billions every year.

    I don't blame people like Bezos for taking advantage of these options. I would assume most of us would do the same if we were in that situation, but it does point to a serious problem with wealth inequality and, at least in my opinion is a large reason why that disparity continues to grow. So actions should be taken to reign it in.

    I don't think anyone has stated a loan should count as income, just the unrealized gains on stocks should maybe should count as income once it meets a certain level. I'm sure someone much smarter than me could come up with an equitable system for doing so.

  18. #1558
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I literally denied it. Here, I'm denying it again.

    Well, since you bet, you lose that bet. Now, you can pay me.

    So, why did you lie so many times in this thread? Any failure to answer that question will be taken as an admission you simply don't know what oyu're talking about, so you decided to lie your way through it.
    We're going to need evidence. Until we get that, no one believes you.
    "When Facism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross." - Unknown

  19. #1559
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, it is literally based on those falsehoods, I have provided the quotes numerous times.

    Is this the part where you beg me to look at the spirit of what they say, and not what they are actually saying? You get pissed when I take them literally, and you get pissed when I take them generally. Make up your fucking mind.

    Very well, the spirit is that they hate the wealthy, and they want to punish them, because they are selfish authoritarians.

    Why are they trying to argue economics, when they don't understand those simple concepts? It's not my fault they are ignorant.
    Meep. Wrong again. I don't care what you do. But all your different tactics, you still fail to grasp what it is they're telling you. All those shots in the dark and you ain't got a score yet.
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  20. #1560
    Quote Originally Posted by Hadriker View Post
    most people really can't take a loan against their stocks becasue most people don't have enough invested to be able to do so. Just a quick google can tell you most firms allow only up to half of the value of your stocks can be taken on as a loan. Many firms require a minimum of 100k in collateral to even qualify. If you look up the average amount a person has invested in non retirement accounts, most won't meet that requirement until their 50s and that is only among those that HAVE investment accounts.

    So its not really accurate to say that your average US citizen has access to those types of loans, especially ones with very little or no interest. Plus this discussion is limited in scope to only loans that are made to circumvent paying capital gains on unrealized gains. That is a rich persons game. Its not something your average person has the ability to do. its a loophole the super rich have available to avoid paying taxes on income becasue it doesn't technically count as income.

    Its why someone like Bezos can claim a child tax credit while his personal wealth grows by billions every year.

    I don't blame people like Bezos for taking advantage of these options. I would assume most of us would do the same if we were in that situation, but it does point to a serious problem with wealth inequality and, at least in my opinion is a large reason why that disparity continues to grow. So actions should be taken to reign it in.

    I don't think anyone has stated a loan should count as income, just the unrealized gains on stocks should maybe should count as income once it meets a certain level. I'm sure someone much smarter than me could come up with an equitable system for doing so.
    Normal people borrow against their homes all the time.
    In the end, the stocks are just collateral.

    All those loans mentioned are tax-free.

    If you're going to make all those unrealized gains count as income, make it apply to everyone. Make it apply to a 401k. Otherwise, it's still pushing the bullshit double standards that people are supposedly concerned about. And there's the kicker, does that also mean that the capital gains taxes go away, since those gains were already taxed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

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