I think we are totally missing the “Anduin replaces Zovaal” plot.
And then everything in the shadowlands is fixed to what the First Ones envisioned the place to be.
I think we are totally missing the “Anduin replaces Zovaal” plot.
And then everything in the shadowlands is fixed to what the First Ones envisioned the place to be.
Is the cinematic titled “Anduin’s Goodbye” or is WoWhead just doing clickbait like they do on Twitter?
Do you think, Triffyn Wrynn is somewhere in Shadowlands but Anduin is fucked and will not find her? I mean... What?
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Short answer:
Because it would be 4 vs 1 and then they would not need the sword.
Long answer:
At that time Arthas was right and they had to do that because there they had no other solution. There was no cure for the plague and they would die from him soon. It is literally the Zombie plague.
Perhaps with more hands they could see if they were all infected.
But at other times Arthas was wrong and if advice to stop could be helpful. Returned the best example is when he goes for the sword. Do you think Arthas would kill Jaina by the sword?
Hmm an "elven being" then, my bad. If you remember the old WC2 Alleria who taste the blood of her enemy on her sword, or willing to kill and to genocide an entire race without hesitation in any way she sees fit, I would say she was a hell of a person, or wasn't she? As for her being manipulative, I believe the Void messing with her head definitely has some parts to play. Her husband is currently the Regent Lord of Stormwind, with that title no doubt he's standing in a position of power. I could see Alleria using Turalyon's position as a pawn in her scheme. Didn't she talk about about reclaiming Silvermoon for the Alliance while Turalyon also show his interest in securing other Alliance territories?
And no, I would oppose an arc where Alleria turn evil. That would be the last thing I want from this story. Which I mean, is she capable of doing some messy, questionable stuffs while her husband cannot. We already saw her torturing civilians as the first sign, and I'm curious to see more of her.
Alleria Windrunner's BIGGEST fanboy. Will defend her no matter what!
I don't think she demonstrated any kind of truly villainous behavior during the Second War. As far as we can tell, she comes off as fairly pragmatic and even ruthless, but I think having anything along the lines of "wanting to taste the blood of her enemy" was a little bit too far. I think she just strikes me as a traditional fantasy Elf on any team in a particularly mature or dark fantasy setting - pragmatic, ruthless, and just a bit of a prick. She still seemed noble at heart, and Turalyon was so enamored with her that he married her.
As for Turalyon being used as a pawn, I figure he's a little too smart for that. Keep in mind that, even if he is seemingly rather trusting, he's also still a master tactician who won the Second War on Draenor. He's definitely naïve, but he's not an idiot. I'd figure that he, especially since he's still outright infused with the Light, would be pretty paranoid about the idea of taking Alleria's advice at face value. He trusts her, but if she goes too Void-y...
I'd similarly say that Turalyon is probably just going on a warpath. Keep in mind he's a war veteran who probably still remembers Orcs as mindless, bloodthirsty beasts from another world. On Azeroth, the legacy of the Horde has changed - they've lapsed twice, sure, but they have more convolutions than a mindless, entirely militarized roving band of psychotics raiding their ways across Azeroth. So, to Turalyon, he sees a bunch of territories that used to belong to the Alliance now in the hands of the Horde. Consequently, they are being occupied by hideous monstrosities. His opinions on Undead lightened a bit after meeting undead Faol, but his opinions on other things, such as the Orcs, may remain as dim as ever - conquering the Horde is simply, in his eyes, removing squatters from what rightfully belongs to humanity.
It wasn't. The text of the game itself disagrees with you. We have a cutscene of survivors of Stratholme shortly after Arthas travels to Northrend and we know from the Benediction Quest, that there was attempts to safe the citizens of the city. Everything in the text indicates that Arthas had the choice of mitigating the damage already caused and safe as many civilians as possible. He chose against it. Because it is in his personality. The game indicates that Arthas always had a violent and vengeful streak about him, one Uther warns him about. Then we see in multiple examples in which Arthas would have the opportunity to make a moral choice him chosing the one option which sates his thirst for vengeance and violence the most. The Human Campaign of Warcraft 3 is literally all about stripping all the layers of the charismatic, well intentioned prince we met at the beginning until we saw that he is at his core a cruel and vengeful man who easily turns towards the Scourge he fought.
I really couldn't care about Wow's story right now and thats a shock seeing I defended BfA to the death of its storyline seeing as I was the only person who enjoyed BfA's story lol (except for the ending that was just dumb)
Maybe because I have been unsubbed since January but I expect the lore to at least keep me checking in
Last edited by Orby; 2021-06-12 at 03:40 PM.
You know what I think the problem with nerd spaces is? The casual misogyny and the incapability of gamers to understand subtexts and narratives. I bet you are one of those guys who complain about politics in their video games while playing Hideo Kojima Games, not understanding the joke.
Rise of the Lich King establishes that Arthas was always in control. He had his humanity still present but suppressed as you can read when you once in your lifetime pick up a book. Its very easily written. And you don't even need the book to understand that Arthas was evil long before he grabbed Frostmourne, the text is very unambigious about it.
Hell, even the Wotlk narrative plays with this theme. Much of the Leveling Experience in WC3 are Arthas attempts to recreat the steps he went through in Northrend before turning into a Death Knight, just that we end up being defiant to the evil that overcame him.
Thats one reason why most Gamers shouldn't talk about video games being Art when they can't understand the most simple subtext. Everyone who says Arthas was right is inheritly cognitively incapable of understanding subtext and an ongoing theme when it is not on their nose. The narrative in Rise of the Lichking also clearly establishes that Arthas was always in control, he always had his free will and his humanity, his conscience, was always intact and just supressed. That is the version of the Warcraft 3 events, when we gain access to Arthas internal thoughts and feelings which prove that Arthas was always still himself. And then, when he ascended to become the Lichking, he sat on the table with his human side which wanted him to repent and he stabbed it. Hell, Blizzard name Arthas as an example for an evil Paladin themselves:
Q: Can you please explain how “light” works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.
A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one’s own ability to do it. That’s why there are evil paladins for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne
So it is clear, the devs intentioned Arthas to be an evil person even before he took up Frostmourne. And the game itself depicts Arthas as somebody who if given the choice always will go for the route of evil. There is also no indication of Arthas being that manipulated. The game destroys any possibility of it. Arthas gets baited around and pushed into situation where he unleashes his evil more and more, but he is never outright manipulated. Even with Frostmourne, the narrative remains in his favor, as he gets multiple warnings that the blade is cursed even before grabbing it. He doesn't care because in the end, what he cares about are his vengeance and the power Frostmourne offers to him. The narrative itself is structured in a way that it tries to safe Arthas from himself. Medivh warns Arthas and offers him the possibility of becoming the hero of the narrative instead of Jaina, Uther warns him, his father and Uther try to safe him from his own vengeance by ordering him and his men to return, the Guardian of the Frostmourne Cave warns Arthas, Muradin warns Arthas. The narrative itself wants Arthas to escape his Destiny, so it is structured in a way that would allow him to escape his fate at any time. Rise of the Lich King further builds on it, by having Arthas face his own humanity who tries to lead him away from his path towards evil. In Wrath of the Lich King, Tirion and Jaina attempt to safe Arthas from the evil that overcame him and both, his former lover and the most noble Paladin in the setting, come to the conclusion that there is nothing to safe. Arthas turns towards pure evil despite every chance he has because its ultimately who he is.
Sylvanas on the other hand is the polar opposite. The narrative is staked against her. Like Arthas, she tries to defend her people but because Arthas is the Hero and because the narrative is in his favor, she doesn't gets the opportunities he got to escape her destiny. She doesn't even gets the choice. As we learned know through Fairy Tales and Folks, her soul was already shattered and she lost a vital part of herself which was taken in by the Jailor. She is tortured for one year by Arthas himself, forced to kill her own people, something Arthas himself did voluntarily and while being free of guilt and remorse. And after freeing herself, Sylvanas is in a constant position of being rejected and betrayed. Garithos reject her after her securing the Capital City for him, the Alliance rejects her and her Forsaken despite them dying for it, even the only allies she can secure are hostile towards her for the longest time and she gets constantly betrayed. And she ends up turning to evil, after an actual act of manipulation, by making made believed that what awaits her after everything is nothing but the same place that also awaits Arthas. The narrative pushes her towards evil, when with Arthas it tried to push him towards good.
Even as far as Shadowlands, we see Sylvanas as a character who seems to believe what she does has to serve a higher purpose, we know that she is wilfully manipulated by the Jailer who is framed like an Abuser while fighting existential pessimism. We see her having much of a conscience and humanity in tact. She obviously connects with Anduin and she struggles and seems remorseful about turning him into a puppet of the Jailer, she wanted to give him the choice. We see her often trying to reconnect with her sisters. This makes her actually fundamentally the opposite of Arthas, as a villain. Arthas was never a character we saw feeling the need to justify his actions, there was actually always an inherit glee to him acting evil and cruel. We literally only know Arthas ideology through external sources, Kel'thuzads Manifesto and Chronicles. We never see him remorseful or struggling with the things he does, in fact he seems to take joy in it. And while Sylvanas clearly puts on the mask of the Banshee Queen to hide the vulnerable and more humane aspects of her personality, there is never an indication that such aspects exists in Arthas, his act seems to be more one to add grandeur to his appereance and mock his opponents.
So yeah, Arthas is plainly in his entire personhood more of a clear cut pure villain than Sylvanas, who shows shades of grey to her personality Arthas lacked ever since taking up Frostmourne.
Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/
Nice that you ignored the big paragraph why the opinions of Arthas Redemption Gamergaters are stupid and not backed by the narrative. The fact that so many people view Arthas as some innocent manipulated victim only shows how many people are overly sympathetic towards characters who are clearly depicted as deranged, violent sociopaths.
Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/
First part...nope? why would you think that? like what part of my text went against strong women...please point that out!
Rise of the lich king...ever heard of the word retcon. Like we see now how the jailor was behind a lot of stuff. And he was always manipulated. Still bad i might add.
A lot of bla bla from you. They retcon a lot. And i never said it think this 100% happend. I said ( several times i might add) that i would not put it past blizzard to do it. Or that it turns out to be like this.
the rest is just a lot of bla bla. accusing me of bigotry. I am just looking at what happend in the games/books so far. And she is worse then the other 2. And arthas has signs that he "might" be curse/controlled beyond the normal manipulation we already saw.
And see only see's evil because everyone hates the undead...arathi higlands...families ( undead/alive) reuniting and she slaughtering all the undead ones?
She does not defend her people. She does not look for ways to let them live longer. She wants to live forever. And sends all of them to a early grave and takes away any change of a afterlive. And many more had the same fate at arthas/LK hand . Dodn't see them going full evil.
< curse blade , that talks to you. That is a mournblade made at the jailors behest?...Arthas lacked ever since taking up Frostmourne.
Because lets be real here, people find every way to condemn Sylvanas here when they are hellbend to find any redeeming quality in Arthas Menethil.
They can always redeem him and retcon the shit out of him, but the current characterization is kinda clear on Arthas. He was already evil before he grabbed Frostmourne, even Blizzard confirmed it. The Novel establishes that he always had remnants of his humanity with him and that he did everything he did with a free will. From a broader narrative standpoint, basically the entire world around Arthas tried to safe him. Everyone tried to lead him away from his descend into evil, he never listened. With Sylvanas on the other hand, her narrative is exactly the opposite of Arthas. The world seemed to have been hellbend to push her into that direction. She was already in the Jailers hands since her first death.Rise of the lich king...ever heard of the word retcon. Like we see now how the jailor was behind a lot of stuff. And he was always manipulated. Still bad i might add.
A lot of bla bla from you. They retcon a lot. And i never said it think this 100% happend. I said ( several times i might add) that i would not put it past blizzard to do it. Or that it turns out to be like this.
There was no manipulation. He was provoked. Thats like saying somebody who stabs someone else in an argument is manipulated, because he was argitated. He went through all the steps into becoming corrupted himself. And even afterwards, he didn't lost his humanity, he rejected it. Actually, he stabbed his own humanity in the form of a helpless little boy with his sword. Then there is his actions and the actions he commanded which were on a by far greater scale than Sylvanas actions. Then there is the characterizations, while we see glimpses of humanity and struggle with her actions while the Jailer is depicted clearly as a manipulative abuser. With Arthas, we saw never any hints of remorse. Hell, he kept Sylvanas blood as well as Mograines soul together with his most intimate treasures. For this guy the memory of taking Sylvanas blood and ripping apart a mans soul in front of his son is the same as the memories of his beloved ones. He backstabbed Ner'zhul at the first opportunity and we know that Arthas didn't do whatever the Jailer wanted him to do, as the veil was intact at the moment of his death and the Jailer had to go through recruiting Sylvanas so that she can just rip apart the veil.the rest is just a lot of bla bla. accusing me of bigotry. I am just looking at what happend in the games/books so far. And she is worse then the other 2. And arthas has signs that he "might" be curse/controlled beyond the normal manipulation we already saw.
Shadowlands is pretty clear that she is fighting against the machine of death as it works now and that the Jailer promised her to be the one to fix it. Not to forget that we know that he holds part of her soul now. Not saying she is not evil, her role was always to occupy this thin line between villain and anti-hero. But she is nowhere near Arthas or even Garrosh, who is so full of himself that he serves as an unlimited battery for the Maw.And see only see's evil because everyone hates the undead...arathi higlands...families ( undead/alive) reuniting and she slaughtering all the undead ones?
She does not defend her people. She does not look for ways to let them live longer. She wants to live forever. And sends all of them to a early grave and takes away any change of a afterlive. And many more had the same fate at arthas/LK hand . Dodn't see them going full evil.
And dude, how could I come to the conclusion that people who hype Arthas and want his redemption while hating on Sylvanas are bigots, its not like the gaming community is so bigoted and misogynist that there was an outrage over a woman wearing a sports bra last year.
And thats why the narrative was pretty clear on Arthas being evil even when he was a Paladin?< curse blade , that talks to you. That is a mournblade made at the jailors behest?...
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Because I have the ability to read subtext, themes and analyze characters on a very basic level while being aware of what kinds of men are common in the gaming community? Like, come on. If Arthas was a chick, much fewer people would want to see his redemption.