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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    I mean, to some degree Arthas was at least in part a victim of the circumstances he found himself in. The grievances that motivated him have to be relatable otherwise he wouldn't really work as a character who we can on some level identify with. But that doesn't really take away from the moral dimension of his choices. He's not a puppet after all.
    I think he is a great villain protagonist. And I think he works so well because Warcraft 3 did a lot of subverting expectations and play with known fantasy tropes in a unique way. Arthas was what would be expected to be the typical fantasy protagonist, a blonde pretty boy holy knight/prince who has some flaws but is ultimately set up to his personal heroes journey, defending his kingdom from a threat bigger than Orcs. In most fantasy storys, hell even in A Song of Fire, Arthas would grow as a person while fighting the Scourge that threatens his homeland, he would overcome the flaws which are hinted at at the beginning. WC3 does the exact opposite, the whole scenario is set up as a test of Arthas character and instead of growing to the challenge, like a typical hero would, he fails at every occation and becomes actually a worse person with every step, until he himself becomes the Champion of the Scourge. And afterwards, be actually play as him in the role and our missions are to actually destroy Lordaeron, slaughter Uther and destroy the rest of the Alliance to summon a Demon Lord. Thats unique and it was especially unique back when the game released. Think about it, its 2002. Its the hight of the Lord of the Rings hype, the genre conventions are still mostly unchallenged, Warcraft 2 still played by the books by having the elves, humans and dwarves be the good guys and the Orcs and trolls be the bad guys. And then Warcraft 3 came around and the pretty boy human prince on the cover turns out to be actually the villain. And the orcish Chieftain was actually a hero, who tried to redeem his people and who ended up fighting for Azeroth. Hell, even the way the game ends, with humans, orcs and elves uniting to protect the world was pretty unique. And then TFT comes around and Arthas story is actually a full on villains journey. He starts as a noble and shining Paladin and Prince and in the end he himself becomes the Lich King.

    Thats what makes hin character iconic and interesting, his story is unique, especially for the time it was released in. The same year Aragon finally became King and lead the armies of middle earth against the evil orcish forces against Sauron, in Warcraft 3 Orcs were heroes and Arthas became the evil Lord of the Scourge himself. And just talking about it I feel shows how much Blizzard since then forgot what made Warcraft such an interesting genre. It was the total Anti-Lord of the Rings setting. Orcs were noble shamanistic warriors trying to redeem themselves from their pasts while the humans fell to evil or were actually antagonistic racists, which the good human character trying to make peace with the Orcs. The glorious human kingdom Lordaeron fell and became home to the Forsaken, freed Undead who tried to carve a place for themselves in the world. The classical tolkien-eque high elves renamed themselves Blood Elves and started to walk under a much darker path, forced into it by their human allies.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    There has been a lot of speculation about Anduin being Arthas and Jaina's child using actual lore from various books and games. Including timelines of Anduin's birth/pregnancy coexisting with trips from Arthas to Stormwind.
    Or that’s not the point at all and Anduin’s written as the King Arthas was SUPPOSED to be?

    His father is Varian. Stop. Everything he has is from his mother and father. His looks is of Varian’s, his hair is of Tiffins, and his personality is a mix of Tiffin’s naive yet passive nature, and his dads stern yet aggressive nature.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    You guys do realize Anduin’s situation isn’t like Arthas’, yeah? Anduin is getting mind controlled. His “good side” is within that mind control. That’s it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I’d agree, except...

    TURALYON IS A FUCKIN ZEALOT WITH A DREADLORD RIGHT BY HIM!!!
    Turalyon is evil, we'll realize that eventually, so is Alleria, they both will bring the void lords.
    I have been waiting TBC longer than I imagined

  4. #144
    The debate as to whenever Arthas was a better person than Sylvanas or not seems impossible to actually tackle to me given that one character was (by Blizzard standards anyway) consistent while another wasn't at all. Arthas's downfall was clearly a result of both his own moral failings and the manipulations of powerful interested parties and a supernatural curse- but his moral failing is part of it. Arthas isn't Arthas if he doesn't start taking the most expedient solution available to him from Stratholme onwards without ever considering alternatives or trying to explain himself to people that want to help him. Then the magical whatsisits like Frostmourne and the Helm get truly involved and things go downhill even faster. It's a clear, fairly concise and understandable narrative, and a straightforward but effective piece of character growth.

    Sylvanas? Please. She yoyos between cackling maniac and muh misunderstood every other scene she's in (apart from BfA where she's locked in maniac mode and SL where she's in muh misunderstood mode), passing by Blizzard trying to make her a ruthless pragmatist that nonetheless hatches terrible plan after terrible plan and gets emotional every time something hits close to home. Nothing about the character makes sense and has a clear line that allows the player to appreciate how her character changes, why and at what point. They just turn on whatever aspect of her fragmented personality suits whatever they want to tell in whatever scene she appears. Arthas was a character, albeit he did get flanderized come Wrath. Sylvanas was, and still is, a plot device. They'll flip her morality on a dime if they want to, so any debate about it is rather pointless if you ask me.

    Mind you, Arthas could still get the didndunuffin "he was manipulated lol" treatment because Heaven forbid that anyone but the Jailer himself ever does anything bad in Shadowlands. But we're talking about the characters so far.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hekazi View Post
    Turalyon is evil, we'll realize that eventually, so is Alleria, they both will bring the void lords.
    the crown of light will bring only darkness?

    the Light has struck a bargain with the enemy of all?
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Or that’s not the point at all and Anduin’s written as the King Arthas was SUPPOSED to be?
    You literally have no proof of this, no more than anyone saying that Arthas is the father. There's plenty of information for both arguments hence that neither is more true than the other. So stop trying to pretend to be superior with your opinion lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  7. #147
    This is just Blizzard's way of conveying story.
    It will be Anduin giving away a secret or 2, which eventually leads us to the raid.
    The "goodbye" within the file name is most likely a red herring. ...Or named from Anduin's perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tartys View Post
    We save him.


    What brother me.. probably one of the most iconic Blizzard chacarter will die here... I am talking about Sylvanas.

    it should be a moving, touching and even glorious moment... instead this leak shifts the focus to Anduin, when we know we save him (and the Arthas soul as well putting his soul in the right place) using the hint into the Compass. And the Compass will be the true hero of this expansion.
    Well that's an opnion at best.
    I agree Sylvanas's death should be memorable... but i'm thinking more along the lines of Hector (Trojan war).
    Last edited by Zmagoslav; 2021-06-14 at 05:17 AM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    Citation needed. The only confirmation we have is the people he struck with the weapon were fragmented to my knowledge.
    Muradin read the inscription on the dais: "Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit." - "The Scourge of Lordaeron: Frostmourne (Warcraft III)", Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos. Blizzard Entertainment

    Remember Matthias Lehner in WotLK?

    "Not much is known about Matthias. It is speculated by some that he is the embodiment of the last piece of Arthas' humanity, which was banished when the Prince took to the Frozen Throne and became the Lich King, the name "Matthias Lehner" being an anagram for "Arthas Menethil." This theory gains support in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King where an unnamed blond-haired boy exists in Arthas' mind, urging him to reject Ner'zhul's influence. This theory is further acknowledged in Edge of Night, when Sylvanas sees Arthas as a little blond boy forever tormented in the afterlife of shadows."

    Do you recall how we fought him and Nerz'hul when we claimed the shards of Frostmourne?

    "The Blades of the Fallen Prince subzone is a spiritual realm inside the Blades of the Fallen Prince where a player is transferred into to cleanse the artifact weapon formed from the shards of Frostmourne from powerful spirits Echo of Arthas Menethil and Echo of Ner'zhul that remain within the blades.

    It is identical to the spiritual realm inside of Frostmourne."

    All things pretty much point to that. That mournblades tear the soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    2. Anduin dies, but after he dies and after the raid, Players pick up his Compass which still resides in his pocket. We place it at his burial site in Korthia, which results in this cinematic playing, especially of Zovaal and his future plans.
    Anyone else is getting Horcrux vibes from that?

    I mean, he could have placed part of his soul in the compass before he dies/or before being transformed.

    That's why, if i remember correctly, Jaina says in the cinematic "oh Anduin, you clever boy" or something like that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    He grabbed it after multiple warnings that the sword is evil, still possessed his own free will and his humanity as we learn in Rise of the Lichking and then he attempted to stab his good side to death because it was nagging him to not be a narcissistic sociopath.
    Yes, and....?

    Sylvanas was not in control? Uther?
    They are implied to have their souls ripped apart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    There has been a lot of speculation about Anduin being Arthas and Jaina's child using actual lore from various books and games. Including timelines of Anduin's birth/pregnancy coexisting with trips from Arthas to Stormwind.
    I was one of that speculators, but apparently Anduin was already born by the time Arthas and Jaina were reunited in stormwind for some first time love-dovey action.
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  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Never even thought of that.. I secretly hope Blizzard still follows Velen's vision on that one..
    Blizzard are weird, they yo yo too much, they probably throwing Anduin under the bus because of the hate towards him, but forgot they did Velen's vision.

    Med'an is a prime example how they simply erase characters if the community don't take to them.

  10. #150
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Blizzard are weird, they yo yo too much, they probably throwing Anduin under the bus because of the hate towards him, but forgot they did Velen's vision.

    Med'an is a prime example how they simply erase characters if the community don't take to them.
    Well, the thing is, Anduin, unlike Med'an, is already a more public visual creation, won't be as easy. Then again, Anduin's storyline is mostly surrounded by light and unity, so if he dies and brought back like Calia, a new chapter for the Forsaken could be, and could also explain why Calia, the Captain, and Voss all are not taking leadership roles but guidance roles.
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I was one of that speculators, but apparently Anduin was already born by the time Arthas and Jaina were reunited in stormwind for some first time love-dovey action.
    I'm just not going to take one way or the other on the matter until it's official either way, especially with how Blizzard has been retconning left and right. There have been way too many hints towards the Anduin and Arthas connection with in game cutscenes since last expansion for me to feel comfortable saying "yes" or "no".
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    I'm just not going to take one way or the other on the matter until it's official either way, especially with how Blizzard has been retconning left and right. There have been way too many hints towards the Anduin and Arthas connection with in game cutscenes since last expansion for me to feel comfortable saying "yes" or "no".
    Maybe his mum banged Arthas in an extra marital triste

  13. #153
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    I'm just not going to take one way or the other on the matter until it's official either way, especially with how Blizzard has been retconning left and right. There have been way too many hints towards the Anduin and Arthas connection with in game cutscenes since last expansion for me to feel comfortable saying "yes" or "no".
    I think more the hints in the cutscenes are more due to the connection of their path.

    Both were believed to become prominent members of the light, both were expected perfection, both have lead an assault on Lordaeron, both have been in contact with domination magic, both have been turned, and both have been granted the hilt of a Mournblade.

    The only difference is, one had more choice than the other.

    As for their parentage. Anduin Llane Wrynn, we know by all the written lore in-game and out of the game, is the son of Varian Wrynn and Tiffin Ellerian Wrynn. There is no proof, no lore, nothing backing up another parentage than what we know.

    And I doubt it will be good publicity to claim that Tiffin was not that noble or loyal as she's been described for so long.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-14 at 08:40 AM.
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  14. #154
    This comes after Sanctum of Domination, and the compass is the last thing left of Anduin

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    I'm just not going to take one way or the other on the matter until it's official either way, especially with how Blizzard has been retconning left and right. There have been way too many hints towards the Anduin and Arthas connection with in game cutscenes since last expansion for me to feel comfortable saying "yes" or "no".
    I know, right?

    I, literally, made a thread about it:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-Anduin-s-Lies

    He, literally, pauses when he says "My Father" in the Legion Alliance epilogue, before completing the sentence "King Varian Wrynn"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    And I doubt it will be good publicity to claim that Tiffin was not that noble or loyal as she's been described for so long.
    I don't believe people say it was tiffin, but Jaina.
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  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Diaphin View Post
    And just talking about it I feel shows how much Blizzard since then forgot what made Warcraft such an interesting genre. It was the total Anti-Lord of the Rings setting. Orcs were noble shamanistic warriors trying to redeem themselves from their pasts while the humans fell to evil or were actually antagonistic racists, which the good human character trying to make peace with the Orcs.
    I don't think Blizzard forgot about it. I think the opposite is the case. Blizzard was so successful with their evolution of the Warcraft setting from WC1 and WC2 where Orcs are unambiguous bad guys and humans are the good guys to the setting you described, that they tried to retread the same steps over and over again (minus the racism). We've had two expansions now (3 if you count warlords) focusing on the horde dealing with an identity crisis caused by some atrocity they've committed. Whenever we're not preoccupied with stopping the devil (Sargeras) or the devil 2.0 (the Jailer) everything reverts back the origin story of the modern Warcraft setting. These tropes have become utterly stale and Blizzard is unable to move past them.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #157
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I don't believe people say it was tiffin, but Jaina.
    Except, Varian has not shown any sign of interest in Jaina, at all. Arthas, Kael'thas, and Kalec have.

    As well, still nothing supporting anything else than the mother being Tiffin.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Except, Varian has not shown any sign of interest in Jaina, at all. Arthas, Kael'thas, and Kalec have.

    As well, still nothing supporting anything else than the mother being Tiffin.
    Didn't mean Varian, either, but Arthas.

    Particularly, this picture:


    I don't know if they have birth control in this universe, but they definitely shagged.
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  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Didn't mean Varian, either, but Arthas.

    Particularly, this picture:


    I don't know if they have birth control in this universe, but they definitely shagged.
    Maybe but if anything, we've not seen anything developed from it.
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  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I don't know if they have birth control in this universe, but they definitely shagged.
    The Kirin Tor probably have an understanding with a discrete alchemist to take care of such things.

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