[SPOILERS] Anduin's....

[Anathaema]

I think we are totally missing the “Anduin replaces Zovaal” plot.
And then everything in the shadowlands is fixed to what the First Ones envisioned the place to be.

[Revamp Man]

Is the cinematic titled “Anduin’s Goodbye” or is WoWhead just doing clickbait like they do on Twitter?

[DesoPL]

Do you think, Triffyn Wrynn is somewhere in Shadowlands but Anduin is fucked and will not find her? I mean... What?

[geco]

Why do people keep saying this? If anything, if they helped Uther and Jaina would also be members of the Scourge. They will have proven once and for all they would follow Arthas to the ends of the earth and maybe they could even bring Muradin with them.

Falric and Marwyn wouldn't even be a thing because they wouldn't need to exist.

Short answer:
Because it would be 4 vs 1 and then they would not need the sword.

Long answer:
At that time Arthas was right and they had to do that because there they had no other solution. There was no cure for the plague and they would die from him soon. It is literally the Zombie plague.
Perhaps with more hands they could see if they were all infected.

But at other times Arthas was wrong and if advice to stop could be helpful. Returned the best example is when he goes for the sword. Do you think Arthas would kill Jaina by the sword?

[baskev]

You have to understand. The system is wrong. There is not enough suffering.
Imagine how many undead Waifu we would have if we do a genocide every 2 years.

lol and becoming fuel for a evil jailor is much better then going a afterlive that is suited for you. Or even been reborn like in ardenweild?

And everyone living forever...look up marvels cancerverse for a answer to that.

[dfsdfvh]

Well, one, Alleria's not human, but secondly - she's not "cruel" or "manipulative". She's always been very pragmatic and ruthless, yes, but I don't' think she's ever been evil at all.

Hmm an "elven being" then, my bad. If you remember the old WC2 Alleria who taste the blood of her enemy on her sword, or willing to kill and to genocide an entire race without hesitation in any way she sees fit, I would say she was a hell of a person, or wasn't she? As for her being manipulative, I believe the Void messing with her head definitely has some parts to play. Her husband is currently the Regent Lord of Stormwind, with that title no doubt he's standing in a position of power. I could see Alleria using Turalyon's position as a pawn in her scheme. Didn't she talk about about reclaiming Silvermoon for the Alliance while Turalyon also show his interest in securing other Alliance territories?
And no, I would oppose an arc where Alleria turn evil. That would be the last thing I want from this story. Which I mean, is she capable of doing some messy, questionable stuffs while her husband cannot. We already saw her torturing civilians as the first sign, and I'm curious to see more of her.

[Raetary]

Do you think, Triffyn Wrynn is somewhere in Shadowlands but Anduin is fucked and will not find her? I mean... What?

What does Tiffin have to do with anything?

[Le Conceptuel]

Hmm an "elven being" then, my bad. If you remember the old WC2 Alleria who taste the blood of her enemy on her sword, or willing to kill and to genocide an entire race without hesitation in any way she sees fit, I would say she was a hell of a person, or wasn't she? As for her being manipulative, I believe the Void messing with her head definitely has some parts to play. Her husband is currently the Regent Lord of Stormwind, with that title no doubt he's standing in a position of power. I could see Alleria using Turalyon's position as a pawn in her scheme. Didn't she talk about about reclaiming Silvermoon for the Alliance while Turalyon also show his interest in securing other Alliance territories?
And no, I would oppose an arc where Alleria turn evil. That would be the last thing I want from this story. Which I mean, is she capable of doing some messy, questionable stuffs while her husband cannot. We already saw her torturing civilians as the first sign, and I'm curious to see more of her.

I don't think she demonstrated any kind of truly villainous behavior during the Second War. As far as we can tell, she comes off as fairly pragmatic and even ruthless, but I think having anything along the lines of "wanting to taste the blood of her enemy" was a little bit too far. I think she just strikes me as a traditional fantasy Elf on any team in a particularly mature or dark fantasy setting - pragmatic, ruthless, and just a bit of a prick. She still seemed noble at heart, and Turalyon was so enamored with her that he married her.

As for Turalyon being used as a pawn, I figure he's a little too smart for that. Keep in mind that, even if he is seemingly rather trusting, he's also still a master tactician who won the Second War on Draenor. He's definitely naïve, but he's not an idiot. I'd figure that he, especially since he's still outright infused with the Light, would be pretty paranoid about the idea of taking Alleria's advice at face value. He trusts her, but if she goes too Void-y...

I'd similarly say that Turalyon is probably just going on a warpath. Keep in mind he's a war veteran who probably still remembers Orcs as mindless, bloodthirsty beasts from another world. On Azeroth, the legacy of the Horde has changed - they've lapsed twice, sure, but they have more convolutions than a mindless, entirely militarized roving band of psychotics raiding their ways across Azeroth. So, to Turalyon, he sees a bunch of territories that used to belong to the Alliance now in the hands of the Horde. Consequently, they are being occupied by hideous monstrosities. His opinions on Undead lightened a bit after meeting undead Faol, but his opinions on other things, such as the Orcs, may remain as dim as ever - conquering the Horde is simply, in his eyes, removing squatters from what rightfully belongs to humanity.

[geco]

lol and becoming fuel for a evil jailor is much better then going a afterlive that is suited for you. Or even been reborn like in ardenweild?

And everyone living forever...look up marvels cancerverse for a answer to that.

Apparently for blizzard the answer is YES.

[baskev]

Apparently for blizzard the answer is YES.

euuhhh are you playing shadowlands? we fight the evil guy who is using souls for feul. So we can save the souls?

[Soon-TM]

Which I mean, is she capable of doing some messy, questionable stuffs while her husband cannot. We already saw her torturing civilians as the first sign, and I'm curious to see more of her.

Yes, she's more than capable of doing funky things, and probably she will - but she will 100% be able to get away with murder. Whatever shady (hue hue) stuff she may do will be swept under the rug and never ever mentioned again. She's Alliance, after all.

[Diaphin]

I agree Arthas is evil, but Stratholme was fully justified. Had Uther had his way, all that would have happened is people get ripped apart by undead and become undead themselves, rather than killed before they could turn. His passive do nothing would have been more cruel.

It wasn't. The text of the game itself disagrees with you. We have a cutscene of survivors of Stratholme shortly after Arthas travels to Northrend and we know from the Benediction Quest, that there was attempts to safe the citizens of the city. Everything in the text indicates that Arthas had the choice of mitigating the damage already caused and safe as many civilians as possible. He chose against it. Because it is in his personality. The game indicates that Arthas always had a violent and vengeful streak about him, one Uther warns him about. Then we see in multiple examples in which Arthas would have the opportunity to make a moral choice him chosing the one option which sates his thirst for vengeance and violence the most. The Human Campaign of Warcraft 3 is literally all about stripping all the layers of the charismatic, well intentioned prince we met at the beginning until we saw that he is at his core a cruel and vengeful man who easily turns towards the Scourge he fought.

[Orby]

I really couldn't care about Wow's story right now and thats a shock seeing I defended BfA to the death of its storyline seeing as I was the only person who enjoyed BfA's story lol (except for the ending that was just dumb)

Maybe because I have been unsubbed since January but I expect the lore to at least keep me checking in

[Diaphin]

how/why?

his first one was to stop a zombie plague. We have seen enough movies and in lore seen enough what happens if you do not deal with the scourge.
And you did not read my second part or played W3. or WoW for that matter. its strongly suggested that dreadlords and frostmourne corrupted him. And even said ingame. So for how much was arthas at the wheel?
But lets say he was ( he was not in my eyes): He did lordearon and silvermoon a work over.

Sylvanas has been in control the whole time. Hell even garrosh was not happy with her. She did teldrassil, darkshore and ashenvale bad. She caused many deaths. AND she caused all the souls of the death to become fuel for the jailor instead of being send to the correct afterlive.

And that justify's all her bad actions because she does not agree with the system? to kill and take away many people's (after)lives? lol

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Dude if you read the quests and played w3 . its told that the sword had a curse. If you played the game you would see that the dreadlords/liches pulled his strings. planned all of it.
Not saying he is a good guy, he made bad choices.
But for instance. Stratholm could have been a nightmare and a run amuck scourge invansion if he did not stop it. In the dungeon its show that they started to turn while he was killing them.

So yes he is bad. But all i am saying is that the curse blade and armour that has been shown in shadowlands can be used to control anduin have the same excat effect on both of them. Think anduin fighting it more shows anduin is a better person then Arthas.


Secondly. I am not saying arthas or garrosh are good. I am saying in comparison to sylvanas they are choir boys. She willfully joined with the jailor. She caused several conflicts and deaths of major lore characthers. She started wars, burned zones to a crisp. Started camps of death. Killed her own people because some wanted to join the alliance/their familys even the ones that where not trying to join the alliance. She took away the afterlive of many of them.

So if you ask me from bad to less bad it goes: Sylvanas > arthas > garrosh.

You know what I think the problem with nerd spaces is? The casual misogyny and the incapability of gamers to understand subtexts and narratives. I bet you are one of those guys who complain about politics in their video games while playing Hideo Kojima Games, not understanding the joke.

Rise of the Lich King establishes that Arthas was always in control. He had his humanity still present but suppressed as you can read when you once in your lifetime pick up a book. Its very easily written. And you don't even need the book to understand that Arthas was evil long before he grabbed Frostmourne, the text is very unambigious about it.

Hell, even the Wotlk narrative plays with this theme. Much of the Leveling Experience in WC3 are Arthas attempts to recreat the steps he went through in Northrend before turning into a Death Knight, just that we end up being defiant to the evil that overcame him.

Thats one reason why most Gamers shouldn't talk about video games being Art when they can't understand the most simple subtext. Everyone who says Arthas was right is inheritly cognitively incapable of understanding subtext and an ongoing theme when it is not on their nose. The narrative in Rise of the Lichking also clearly establishes that Arthas was always in control, he always had his free will and his humanity, his conscience, was always intact and just supressed. That is the version of the Warcraft 3 events, when we gain access to Arthas internal thoughts and feelings which prove that Arthas was always still himself. And then, when he ascended to become the Lichking, he sat on the table with his human side which wanted him to repent and he stabbed it. Hell, Blizzard name Arthas as an example for an evil Paladin themselves:

Q: Can you please explain how “light” works? The lore states that undead are physically incapable of using the light, much like the Broken, but then we have Forsaken players casting healing spells, and Sir Zeliek in Naxxramas using pseudo-paladin abilities.

A: Without spoiling too much, we can tell you that wielding the Light is a matter of having willpower or faith in one’s own ability to do it. That’s why there are evil paladins for example, the Scarlet Crusade and Arthas before he took up Frostmourne

So it is clear, the devs intentioned Arthas to be an evil person even before he took up Frostmourne. And the game itself depicts Arthas as somebody who if given the choice always will go for the route of evil. There is also no indication of Arthas being that manipulated. The game destroys any possibility of it. Arthas gets baited around and pushed into situation where he unleashes his evil more and more, but he is never outright manipulated. Even with Frostmourne, the narrative remains in his favor, as he gets multiple warnings that the blade is cursed even before grabbing it. He doesn't care because in the end, what he cares about are his vengeance and the power Frostmourne offers to him. The narrative itself is structured in a way that it tries to safe Arthas from himself. Medivh warns Arthas and offers him the possibility of becoming the hero of the narrative instead of Jaina, Uther warns him, his father and Uther try to safe him from his own vengeance by ordering him and his men to return, the Guardian of the Frostmourne Cave warns Arthas, Muradin warns Arthas. The narrative itself wants Arthas to escape his Destiny, so it is structured in a way that would allow him to escape his fate at any time. Rise of the Lich King further builds on it, by having Arthas face his own humanity who tries to lead him away from his path towards evil. In Wrath of the Lich King, Tirion and Jaina attempt to safe Arthas from the evil that overcame him and both, his former lover and the most noble Paladin in the setting, come to the conclusion that there is nothing to safe. Arthas turns towards pure evil despite every chance he has because its ultimately who he is.

Sylvanas on the other hand is the polar opposite. The narrative is staked against her. Like Arthas, she tries to defend her people but because Arthas is the Hero and because the narrative is in his favor, she doesn't gets the opportunities he got to escape her destiny. She doesn't even gets the choice. As we learned know through Fairy Tales and Folks, her soul was already shattered and she lost a vital part of herself which was taken in by the Jailor. She is tortured for one year by Arthas himself, forced to kill her own people, something Arthas himself did voluntarily and while being free of guilt and remorse. And after freeing herself, Sylvanas is in a constant position of being rejected and betrayed. Garithos reject her after her securing the Capital City for him, the Alliance rejects her and her Forsaken despite them dying for it, even the only allies she can secure are hostile towards her for the longest time and she gets constantly betrayed. And she ends up turning to evil, after an actual act of manipulation, by making made believed that what awaits her after everything is nothing but the same place that also awaits Arthas. The narrative pushes her towards evil, when with Arthas it tried to push him towards good.

Even as far as Shadowlands, we see Sylvanas as a character who seems to believe what she does has to serve a higher purpose, we know that she is wilfully manipulated by the Jailer who is framed like an Abuser while fighting existential pessimism. We see her having much of a conscience and humanity in tact. She obviously connects with Anduin and she struggles and seems remorseful about turning him into a puppet of the Jailer, she wanted to give him the choice. We see her often trying to reconnect with her sisters. This makes her actually fundamentally the opposite of Arthas, as a villain. Arthas was never a character we saw feeling the need to justify his actions, there was actually always an inherit glee to him acting evil and cruel. We literally only know Arthas ideology through external sources, Kel'thuzads Manifesto and Chronicles. We never see him remorseful or struggling with the things he does, in fact he seems to take joy in it. And while Sylvanas clearly puts on the mask of the Banshee Queen to hide the vulnerable and more humane aspects of her personality, there is never an indication that such aspects exists in Arthas, his act seems to be more one to add grandeur to his appereance and mock his opponents.

So yeah, Arthas is plainly in his entire personhood more of a clear cut pure villain than Sylvanas, who shows shades of grey to her personality Arthas lacked ever since taking up Frostmourne.

[Feanoro]

You know what I think the problem with nerd spaces is? The casual misogyny and the incapability of gamers to understand subtexts and narratives.

"If you don't like Sylvanas, you're a misogynist!" Man, what a new and compelling argument.

[Diaphin]

"If you don't like Sylvanas, you're a misogynist!" Man, what a new and compelling argument.

Nice that you ignored the big paragraph why the opinions of Arthas Redemption Gamergaters are stupid and not backed by the narrative. The fact that so many people view Arthas as some innocent manipulated victim only shows how many people are overly sympathetic towards characters who are clearly depicted as deranged, violent sociopaths.

[Feanoro]

Nice that you ignored the big paragraph why the opinions of Arthas Redemption Gamergaters are stupid and not backed by the narrative. The fact that so many people view Arthas as some innocent manipulated victim only shows how many people are overly sympathetic towards characters who are clearly depicted as deranged, violent sociopaths.

Or I chose not to comment on it. Seeing how you're slinging "misogyny!" "Gamergaters!", and pseudo-psychiatry, doesn't look like you'd want a conversation anyway.

[Stardrift]

Nice that you ignored the big paragraph why the opinions of Arthas Redemption Gamergaters are stupid and not backed by the narrative. The fact that so many people view Arthas as some innocent manipulated victim only shows how many people are overly sympathetic towards characters who are clearly depicted as deranged, violent sociopaths.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

Dear god. If you're looking for making shitty takes, Twitter.com is this way.

[baskev]

snip

First part...nope? why would you think that? like what part of my text went against strong women...please point that out!

Rise of the lich king...ever heard of the word retcon. Like we see now how the jailor was behind a lot of stuff. And he was always manipulated. Still bad i might add.
A lot of bla bla from you. They retcon a lot. And i never said it think this 100% happend. I said ( several times i might add) that i would not put it past blizzard to do it. Or that it turns out to be like this.

the rest is just a lot of bla bla. accusing me of bigotry. I am just looking at what happend in the games/books so far. And she is worse then the other 2. And arthas has signs that he "might" be curse/controlled beyond the normal manipulation we already saw.

And see only see's evil because everyone hates the undead...arathi higlands...families ( undead/alive) reuniting and she slaughtering all the undead ones?
She does not defend her people. She does not look for ways to let them live longer. She wants to live forever. And sends all of them to a early grave and takes away any change of a afterlive. And many more had the same fate at arthas/LK hand . Dodn't see them going full evil.

Arthas lacked ever since taking up Frostmourne.

< curse blade , that talks to you. That is a mournblade made at the jailors behest?...

[Diaphin]

First part...nope? why would you think that? like what part of my text went against strong women...please point that out!

Because lets be real here, people find every way to condemn Sylvanas here when they are hellbend to find any redeeming quality in Arthas Menethil.

Rise of the lich king...ever heard of the word retcon. Like we see now how the jailor was behind a lot of stuff. And he was always manipulated. Still bad i might add.
A lot of bla bla from you. They retcon a lot. And i never said it think this 100% happend. I said ( several times i might add) that i would not put it past blizzard to do it. Or that it turns out to be like this.

They can always redeem him and retcon the shit out of him, but the current characterization is kinda clear on Arthas. He was already evil before he grabbed Frostmourne, even Blizzard confirmed it. The Novel establishes that he always had remnants of his humanity with him and that he did everything he did with a free will. From a broader narrative standpoint, basically the entire world around Arthas tried to safe him. Everyone tried to lead him away from his descend into evil, he never listened. With Sylvanas on the other hand, her narrative is exactly the opposite of Arthas. The world seemed to have been hellbend to push her into that direction. She was already in the Jailers hands since her first death.

the rest is just a lot of bla bla. accusing me of bigotry. I am just looking at what happend in the games/books so far. And she is worse then the other 2. And arthas has signs that he "might" be curse/controlled beyond the normal manipulation we already saw.

There was no manipulation. He was provoked. Thats like saying somebody who stabs someone else in an argument is manipulated, because he was argitated. He went through all the steps into becoming corrupted himself. And even afterwards, he didn't lost his humanity, he rejected it. Actually, he stabbed his own humanity in the form of a helpless little boy with his sword. Then there is his actions and the actions he commanded which were on a by far greater scale than Sylvanas actions. Then there is the characterizations, while we see glimpses of humanity and struggle with her actions while the Jailer is depicted clearly as a manipulative abuser. With Arthas, we saw never any hints of remorse. Hell, he kept Sylvanas blood as well as Mograines soul together with his most intimate treasures. For this guy the memory of taking Sylvanas blood and ripping apart a mans soul in front of his son is the same as the memories of his beloved ones. He backstabbed Ner'zhul at the first opportunity and we know that Arthas didn't do whatever the Jailer wanted him to do, as the veil was intact at the moment of his death and the Jailer had to go through recruiting Sylvanas so that she can just rip apart the veil.

And see only see's evil because everyone hates the undead...arathi higlands...families ( undead/alive) reuniting and she slaughtering all the undead ones?
She does not defend her people. She does not look for ways to let them live longer. She wants to live forever. And sends all of them to a early grave and takes away any change of a afterlive. And many more had the same fate at arthas/LK hand . Dodn't see them going full evil.

Shadowlands is pretty clear that she is fighting against the machine of death as it works now and that the Jailer promised her to be the one to fix it. Not to forget that we know that he holds part of her soul now. Not saying she is not evil, her role was always to occupy this thin line between villain and anti-hero. But she is nowhere near Arthas or even Garrosh, who is so full of himself that he serves as an unlimited battery for the Maw.

And dude, how could I come to the conclusion that people who hype Arthas and want his redemption while hating on Sylvanas are bigots, its not like the gaming community is so bigoted and misogynist that there was an outrage over a woman wearing a sports bra last year.

< curse blade , that talks to you. That is a mournblade made at the jailors behest?...

And thats why the narrative was pretty clear on Arthas being evil even when he was a Paladin?

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Or I chose not to comment on it. Seeing how you're slinging "misogyny!" "Gamergaters!", and pseudo-psychiatry, doesn't look like you'd want a conversation anyway.

Because I have the ability to read subtext, themes and analyze characters on a very basic level while being aware of what kinds of men are common in the gaming community? Like, come on. If Arthas was a chick, much fewer people would want to see his redemption.