Thread: Elden Ring

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  1. #1901
    I am now using Moonveil Katana maxed out, and thanks to the person who recommended Ranni's Dark Moon. The R2 + R1 and the R2+R2 on the Katana are both the most powerful moves I have right now, and that includes the whole Azur's Comet setup from earlier. I never realized the whole time my mage was being built around a sword, lol. The Moonveil Katana melee makes most of the game a joke, especially phantoms. I'm not sure if it is like this for other weapons, but the weapon art on Moonveil is incredibly overpowered compared to normal swings. Like beyond incredible. Get the "none" power for your carion shield and you can cast both weapon arts without having to 2-hand it, and it just destroys everything compared to any power I've had the entire rest of the game. It's faster, more deadly, and better than any spell I got. Lemme tell you one more thing, Radagon's Soreseal with this weapon on a mage is so synergistic. It scales with int, dex, and str, of course I have relatively low dex/str but 60 int, so Radagon's bumps that str/dex level enough to be considerable while I'm effectively soft capped maxed on my int, at +10(I couldn't get to +10 until after the giant since the stones were out of reach, but I didn't look too closely, +9 was plenty) the fast draw technique using L2+R2 is so, so fast, head seeking, ultra damaging, and just unfair.

    I beat the fire giant right after clearing the capital(he's basically very resistant to magic, so I just spammed L2+R2 into his injured foot and on in to phase 2), and I'm at what Melania considers(in her warning text at the campfire) the point of no return. I collected both pieces for the 2nd great lift and took the secret area to grab the 2x Somber Dragon Smithing Stones from the pickup/quests there.

    I had no idea there was a sewer area below the capital, I mostly just ran the roofs to the final boss and 1 shot him with Azurs(works great on him) but that freakin fire giant is almost immune to sorceries, I had to full-on melee that guy, and it was real, real close but I got him after about 10 attempts. He gave me 3 levels. I think I'm 90 hours in, maybe level 110 or so. I'm getting near the pinnacle of my power now. I can feel it. I also beat another guy who was pretty hard for me until I got +10 weapons, the evergoal that houses Black Knife Tiche at the end of Ranni's questline. So, so tough for me, but turned into cheese once I got that +10 Moonveil!

    Anyway, 999999999999999999999999999/10

    For anyone still using the glintstone style spells, imho, the best one is Glintstone Icecrag. In general I run:

    Glintstone Icecrag
    Carian Slicer
    Loretta's Greatbow
    Azur's Comet
    Terra Magica

    This covers ranged, the 1 shot trick, long distance shots, workhorse spell, and melee is for the Moonveil. The true purpose of Carian Slicer isn't melee, but rather an efficient if high risk way to turn mana into damage at a great exchange rate. It also serves as a great tool for confined melee since it cannot trike walls and I guess ignores enemy poise(or at least, isn't affected by practical enemy defenses, though I'm sure is reduced by their resistances).

    One more thing, just in case anyone else missed it, when you go to Caelid via the exit of the cave with the stars underground, you will have to run down a long outdoor valley with giants shooing arrows at you. Once you get to the end, there is a HUGE pot, a building, and probably some blood stains. You can talk to the pot! You just have to be standing at the right spot. If you talk to the pot, he will show you 3 summon signs. If you beat all 3 without dying or using the campfire, you get a great talisman for your trouble that is very universal.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2022-03-28 at 09:37 PM.

  2. #1902
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They aren't in cramped spaces per se, but one of them is surrounded by a ton of mobs including four or five ballistae shooters and two knights. You can flank them and *cough* cheese most of them with Night Maiden's Mist *cough* but it's still a highly annoying area. Though personally I found the Caelid one to be the easiest. Just kited him around the tree and smacked him with pebble (it's actually the first Avatar I fought and it was very early, hence me still using pebble).

    As for reusing bosses as normal mobs (or reusing bosses in general) I'm not generally against it, but it depends on how it's executed and I think Elden Ring is lacking in this department. In a way it makes the world more believable when there is not just one Deathbird in the entire game world. But there should be greater variety among them. God of War Valkyries are a reused boss done right. Each of them have their own theme and a few unique abilities (and then some additional ones that are shared only by some of them and not all).

    And when it comes to reusing bosses as normal mobs in particular the benefit of doing it is that it can also can serve as a mark of your progress if they stop being used as bosses in later areas. That applies to Leonine Misbegotten but on the other hand there are still endgame Erdtree Avatar bosses. And there should be even more differentiation between them and the boss varieties. Take Crucible Knights for example. I'm fine with them being one-off minibosses that don't get a health bar but also don't respawn, but the boss ones should be differentiated. Ordovis could have worked like that since he had special armor. But instead he has the same moveset and instead the gimmick of his fight is that it's a gank fight with another Crucible Knight.
    The Scarlet Rot annoyed me so much on the Caelid one that it was one of the reasons I respecced into Dex/Int to deal with enemies leaving toxic fart clouds around. I still melee 90% of the time with a magic claymore or Moonveil but a credible ranged option makes things loads easier at times. Bows are sadly just as much of a joke as they are in Dark Souls. And yes, the Valkyries are an example done right. If they then became normal enemies that would make them less special. In fact that very game does this with the Dark Elf Lords which I wasn't a big fan of. It's weird because GoW has a lot less enemy variety than Elden Ring (how many areas have you fight Draugrs and how many Troll bosses are there again?) but it still feels better used. Maybe because you fight at least variations of them in different areas and your own toolkit expands massively over the course of the game so it feels like a different experience.

    I'm at Altus Plateau now and I found a dungeon that was almost 100% copy-pasted. It had a lift at the beginning, those annoying gargoyle enemies, floor traps + descending blades, a sewer area with zombies and hidden giant crabs, knights, and the boss was a cat statue. Literally all of this was something I've seen before and even the layout was very similar to previous catacombs, down to a secret area accessible by triggering the rising floor and dropping down. They could have cut this from the game entirely and nothing of value would have been lost.

    I know other open worlds do this, and are often worse about it. But when a lot of the game doesn't reuse assets this blatantly, it sticks out like a sore thumb when it does. I'll say it again, making the game smaller but having locations and enemies repeat less would 100% have made it better in my eyes. Especially when the scaling can make things wonky and you wonder why Vulgar Militia and simple bats in northern Calied have ten times more health than those found one zone away. I know the actual reason is gameplay but it still screws with the sense of progression a bit. And thanks for the warning about a Crucible Knight gank fight which I feel was inevitable anyway. From Soft's way to increase the difficulty of enemies that are fun to duel always seems to be "but what if there were two of them and you spend 5 minutes running away waiting for your one small window of opportunity before you get to enjoy yourself??".

    As an aside, did I screw up Beast Cleric Durranq or something? He's hostile to me now and the last thing I remember doing around giving him a bunch of Deathroot, and he seems scaled for endgame so I got my ass kicked a couple hours earlier. I did try and attack the gargoyle guarding him and getting oneshot, but that didn't make him aggressive so I dunno.
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  3. #1903
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    As an aside, did I screw up Beast Cleric Durranq or something? He's hostile to me now and the last thing I remember doing around giving him a bunch of Deathroot, and he seems scaled for endgame so I got my ass kicked a couple hours earlier. I did try and attack the gargoyle guarding him and getting oneshot, but that didn't make him aggressive so I dunno.
    I believe he goes aggressive after you give him the 6th and you need to lay a smack down on him to get him to calm down.

  4. #1904
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The Scarlet Rot annoyed me so much on the Caelid one that it was one of the reasons I respecced into Dex/Int to deal with enemies leaving toxic fart clouds around. I still melee 90% of the time with a magic claymore or Moonveil but a credible ranged option makes things loads easier at times. Bows are sadly just as much of a joke as they are in Dark Souls. And yes, the Valkyries are an example done right. If they then became normal enemies that would make them less special. In fact that very game does this with the Dark Elf Lords which I wasn't a big fan of. It's weird because GoW has a lot less enemy variety than Elden Ring (how many areas have you fight Draugrs and how many Troll bosses are there again?) but it still feels better used. Maybe because you fight at least variations of them in different areas and your own toolkit expands massively over the course of the game so it feels like a different experience.
    Yeah, Valkyries would be diminished if they were also normal enemies. In part it has to do with the lore of the world since they are supposed to be special agents of gods. But also it depends on how often a boss is reused as a boos. If a boss is reused as many time as Valkyries, having them reused as a normal enemy on top of that would be a bit grating. So there's also a balance of reusing bosses as bosses to reusing bosses as normal enemies to consider as well. If it's a boss once or twice (maybe a bit more if the game is really big) then as long as the other things I talked about still apply normal mob versions would be fine. More than that and keep it boss only (the previous points on that also still apply).

    As for the Dark Elves, I don't really remember the normal mob variety other than having some dim recollection of there being Dark Elves you finished in a similar manner to the boss, but here in general I'm OK. There was only one Dark Elf boss from what I recall, so it's fine on the ratio thing. And in terms of lore here we have an entire race so it'd be weird if there was only one Dark Elf of a particular muscle mass or overall build. So also fine on that front for me. So all that's left for it not to feel wrong is to give the boss some unique weapon and/or other tools that expand on its moveset and overall feel and it's fine. Again, I can't really recall the normal mobs so I'm not sure whether it applied here or not, so I'm talking in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I'm at Altus Plateau now and I found a dungeon that was almost 100% copy-pasted. It had a lift at the beginning, those annoying gargoyle enemies, floor traps + descending blades, a sewer area with zombies and hidden giant crabs, knights, and the boss was a cat statue. Literally all of this was something I've seen before and even the layout was very similar to previous catacombs, down to a secret area accessible by triggering the rising floor and dropping down. They could have cut this from the game entirely and nothing of value would have been lost.
    Yeah, the dungeons with crabs in them felt particularly same-y for some reason. And even though they were differentiated by some gimmicks from what I recall those gimmicks were also shared with other gimmick-based dungeons (though without crabs), like the looping layout.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    As an aside, did I screw up Beast Cleric Durranq or something? He's hostile to me now and the last thing I remember doing around giving him a bunch of Deathroot, and he seems scaled for endgame so I got my ass kicked a couple hours earlier. I did try and attack the gargoyle guarding him and getting oneshot, but that didn't make him aggressive so I dunno.
    No, you just need to smack like 10% of his HP. Technically you can even aggro the Black Blade Kindred outside and if you get lucky it will destroy his ass with one hit.
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  5. #1905
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yeah, Valkyries would be diminished if they were also normal enemies. In part it has to do with the lore of the world since they are supposed to be special agents of gods. But also it depends on how often a boss is reused as a boos. If a boss is reused as many time as Valkyries, having them reused as a normal enemy on top of that would be a bit grating. So there's also a balance of reusing bosses as bosses to reusing bosses as normal enemies to consider as well. If it's a boss once or twice (maybe a bit more if the game is really big) then as long as the other things I talked about still apply normal mob versions would be fine. More than that and keep it boss only (the previous points on that also still apply).

    As for the Dark Elves, I don't really remember the normal mob variety other than having some dim recollection of there being Dark Elves you finished in a similar manner to the boss, but here in general I'm OK. There was only one Dark Elf boss from what I recall, so it's fine on the ratio thing. And in terms of lore here we have an entire race so it'd be weird if there was only one Dark Elf of a particular muscle mass or overall build. So also fine on that front for me. So all that's left for it not to feel wrong is to give the boss some unique weapon and/or other tools that expand on its moveset and overall feel and it's fine. Again, I can't really recall the normal mobs so I'm not sure whether it applied here or not, so I'm talking in general.




    Yeah, the dungeons with crabs in them felt particularly same-y for some reason. And even though they were differentiated by some gimmicks from what I recall those gimmicks were also shared with other gimmick-based dungeons (though without crabs), like the looping layout.




    No, you just need to smack like 10% of his HP. Technically you can even aggro the Black Blade Kindred outside and if you get lucky it will destroy his ass with one hit.
    The crabs are just so predictable. Oh, here's a swampy/sewery area with items just out in the open. I really wonder what's going to pop from under it when I walk to pick them up, hmmm. It's like From hired a guy and his entire thing was placing items this way and putting 1 to 3 giant crabs under them. And when they found out who had a hidden crab fetish it was too late. Again, sticks out in a game that is usually quite good at surprising the player. In general Altus Plateau features a lot of stuff I've seen before, from the scenery to the enemies and dungeons. Feels like Limgrave 2.0 where Liurnia and Calied were quite a bit different.

    The Dark Elf commanders showed up 5-6 times that I recall. I vividly remember them thanks to their annoying ass blinding attacks which were especially grating in Muspelheim. They're not the most egregious example, just one that came off the top of my head.

    And cheers to you and @Very Tired for Beast Cleric. I'll go beat him up until he goes back to being good then. Feels like WoW all over again, hehe.
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  6. #1906
    On Beast Cleric, I teleported to him and he started owning me, so I reset and killed him. The only thing I did around him that could have caused it was to kill that dragon guarding the bridge outside, it did feel like he was randomly attacking. Did I miss anything by killing him?

    I have skipped many of the side dungeons. That is because many of the rewards for completing them are not for my spec. I have been trying to tell what is in the tomb by the name of the tomb, so if it sounds like a church thing, it is probably faith, mage rewards sound like mage places, str rewards in tombs, ect, and I found it did hold true pretty well. Of course, I just looked up some of the meta stuff. I doubt From wanted everyone to go through every tomb, and even if they did, I doubt anyone not a hardcore gamer is going to notice, much less mind a similar dungeon. Just saying.

    To me, the re-use of assets in the game allowed a new dimension to their traditional games to be added. Look at how many enemy models are in the game, there must be hundreds, so many more than even SotN, much less most AAA games that have like very few enemies the entire game, like botw. Just, to me, the re-use of assets exist, yes, clearly but I also feel like this is the best asset re-use that I've seen in a game. So much re-use yet the areas and the game in general feels so bespoke. I just dont' agree about asset re-use, I think it is one of the most clever things they did in the game, if they took it out, it probably would have been the lesser for it, not greater. Just imho.
    Last edited by Zenfoldor; 2022-03-28 at 09:58 PM.

  7. #1907
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    I am now using Moonveil Katana maxed out, and thanks to the person who recommended Ranni's Dark Moon. The R2 + R1 and the R2+R2 on the Katana are both the most powerful moves I have right now, and that includes the whole Azur's Comet setup from earlier. I never realized the whole time my mage was being built around a sword, lol. The Moonveil Katana melee makes most of the game a joke, especially phantoms.
    I don't usually talk about the play experience of others- because that is your business really. However, I am playing two characters concurrently; a full-strength "barbarian" and a "mage" archetype. On the latter, I am using the Moonveil main hand and Lusat's Staff offhand.

    The absurd level of ease of the "mage" type is like night/day compared to a typical melee-type character. For every reason you mention. The weapon arts are fast, powerful, and break enemy stances easily from relative safety. Even the light attacks, can stack up QUICK.

    Whatever survives my fully buffed Comet Azur and Night Comet (best damage to FP ratio in the game) volley is sure to die in a few Moonveil weapon arts.

    I killed that badass lighting dragon in Fia's dream on my lunch break so quickly and on the first damn try using my mage, he didn't even rear up and throw the lighting bolts. It was less than 20 seconds to kill him. Hell. Maybe less than 15.

    That fight was ridiculously hard on my more traditional melee-type character.

    Magic and the Moonveil pumping Int, Mind, and Vit trivializes almost every encounter in the game in my own play experience. I am going faster and at a lower level than my level 133 melee character.

    The magic/melee imbalance is ludicrous!

    Edit: Also Ironjar Aromatic and darts are the only things you really need to craft. Just stand there and unload a full laser in the face of a Glintstone Dragon or Draconic Tree Sentinel no problem.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2022-03-28 at 10:04 PM.

  8. #1908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    For anyone still using the glintstone style spells, imho, the best one is Glintstone Icecrag.
    If you offhand the staff of loss from selia city night comet has the highest damage to FP usage ratio.

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  9. #1909
    Quote Originally Posted by Zenfoldor View Post
    On Beast Cleric, I teleported to him and he started owning me, so I reset and killed him. The only thing I did around him that could have caused it was to kill that dragon guarding the bridge outside, it did feel like he was randomly attacking. Did I miss anything by killing him?

    I have skipped many of the side dungeons. That is because many of the rewards for completing them are not for my spec. I have been trying to tell what is in the tomb by the name of the tomb, so if it sounds like a church thing, it is probably faith, mage rewards sound like mage places, str rewards in tombs, ect, and I found it did hold true pretty well. Of course, I just looked up some of the meta stuff. I doubt From wanted everyone to go through every tomb, and even if they did, I doubt anyone not a hardcore gamer is going to notice, much less mind a similar dungeon. Just saying.

    To me, the re-use of assets in the game allowed a new dimension to their traditional games to be added. Look at how many enemy models are in the game, there must be hundreds, so many more than even SotN, much less most AAA games that have like very few enemies the entire game, like botw. Just, to me, the re-use of assets exist, yes, clearly but I also feel like this is the best asset re-use that I've seen in a game. So much re-use yet the areas and the game in general feels so bespoke. I just dont' agree about asset re-use, I think it is one of the most clever things they did in the game, if they took it out, it probably would have been the lesser for it, not greater. Just imho.
    I don't see how repeating them made them able to add more to the game. Having those stone imps in 2-3 bespoke locations instead of 10+ dungeons with very similar layouts and aesthetics wouldn't have made the time and effort invested in them any lesser but would have made their appearance more notable, rather than "oh, those guys in this place again". For example I ran into a forest full of big, worm-faced humanoid thingies who made very distinctive sounds. To me that place is the Forest of Worm-Faced Thingies. If I then find out there's four or five other Forests of Worm-Faced Tingies and that there's one or two dungeon boss recycling the boss-level one at the Erdtree I'll be disappointed as it would make the originals less unique, less part of the world-building and more part of the world-filling, if that makes any sense. Same with those bull-headed ghostly dudes down in Selia River, who obviously worshipped the nearby boss and guarded the fires summoning it. They're intrinsically tied to the location and it makes them more memorable.

    For some enemies such as soldiers or dogs, I get the repetition. A guy's a guy and a dog's a dog. But the more a clever, out-there or otherwise noteworthy design is reused, the less noteworthy it is to me. Hell I found an Evergaol and the boss was literally Godrick the Grafted, except with a slightly different name, beefed up stats and no Ph2. That just made me raise my eyebrows. He's a mainline story boss for pete's sake, not some no-name cat statue. Having him come back for a rematch would be fine or even cool if the story warrants it, but don't throw the Wal-Mart version at me for the sake of a throwaway world boss, you know.

    Fallout New Vegas did this right. There's two places in the world where Deathclaws congregate. There's three places with Super Mutants. These places and enemies became noteworthy by this fact alone. Same with Cazadores in the hills west of Vegas, or the Fiends in the ruins. These enemies are there because of reasons and you know you'll find them only there. It grounds them in the world and this particular location, there's a story to it. If you pull a Bethesda and then decide that, lol who cares, there's 10 Cazador caves, 12 Deathclaw lairs and 40 Super Mutant camps because the player's gotta have something to shoot, it all blurs together and it feels less like those enemies and places have a history within the world and more that some dev placed (insert enemy X) there because why not and called it a day without thinking about it.

    Not to say From did as bad as Bethesda, far from it, Elden Ring is leagues ahead anything they made in terms of open world. But the repetition is one of the things preventing me from boarding the hype train.
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  10. #1910
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I don't see how repeating them made them able to add more to the game. Having those stone imps in 2-3 bespoke locations instead of 10+ dungeons with very similar layouts and aesthetics wouldn't have made the time and effort invested in them any lesser but would have made their appearance more notable, rather than "oh, those guys in this place again".
    Some of this comes down to how they use the enemies. Which are mechanical representations. The Imps represent a set of mechanical processes, the dogs, soldiers, etc.

    This is useful as a design tool in two ways; education and mastery.

    For example, you face those spear and shield soldiers very early on in ER. Like right near the first campsite basically. By the time you are 40-50 hours into the game, I would say most players have a thorough knowledge of their attacks and abilities. Such that when From layer these encounters there is a passive education in the design and mechanics of these elements.

    "That's the pressure guy, that other guy is going to pull out a crossbow if I am out of his range, that spear guy rushes twice while the sword guy flanks..."

    The player can understand and reconcile these encounters by the composition of enemy types. Which gives From the freedom to play with the expectation but also test the knowledge and mastery of the player as such.

    I talked earlier about the landing at the bottom of the Divine Tower of Radahn. That is a perfect example of From showing off their design acumen. You see and recognize a familiar enemy. Alone, you would understand he is not a big threat. The encounter space plays on the expectation the player may have in thinking "Oh this guy? Without backup, in this space? Pfft. EZ-PZ."

    But walking into the space fully will reveal the particular design of the stairs, a dead drop, crossing enemy, and false expectations of exploration leading to your goal; escape.

    If two uniquely occurring enemies were in the same section, or the layout changed- the entire encounter is a different effect than From Software is trying to achieve at that moment.

    There are many instances of this with those gargoyles and familiar tombs in particular. Some of the most mind-blowing "secrets" or interactions I have had in the game come from the mundane tombs when I thought, "Oh this type of place again. Well, I just need to run here, flip the switch... and OMG there is a hidden floor?" "Well, it's just two Imps. No biggie, I will just... Oh, a second balcony & illusory floor the imp revealed because I didn't engage and ran by...."

    They can't build that reactivity and mastery without giving the player a steady diet of expectation. And they don't care if you ever encounter it that way either. There is a lot of daring in the design as so.

  11. #1911
    There are two things that I deem need nerfs or outright removal in this game. Chariots and illusionary walls that take multiple smacks to destroy.

  12. #1912
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    There are two things that I deem need nerfs or outright removal in this game. Chariots and illusionary walls that take multiple smacks to destroy.
    Whhhaa?

    Two of my favorite parts!

  13. #1913
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Some of this comes down to how they use the enemies. Which are mechanical representations. The Imps represent a set of mechanical processes, the dogs, soldiers, etc.

    This is useful as a design tool in two ways; education and mastery.

    For example, you face those spear and shield soldiers very early on in ER. Like right near the first campsite basically. By the time you are 40-50 hours into the game, I would say most players have a thorough knowledge of their attacks and abilities. Such that when From layer these encounters there is a passive education in the design and mechanics of these elements.

    "That's the pressure guy, that other guy is going to pull out a crossbow if I am out of his range, that spear guy rushes twice while the sword guy flanks..."

    The player can understand and reconcile these encounters by the composition of enemy types. Which gives From the freedom to play with the expectation but also test the knowledge and mastery of the player as such.

    I talked earlier about the landing at the bottom of the Divine Tower of Radahn. That is a perfect example of From showing off their design acumen. You see and recognize a familiar enemy. Alone, you would understand he is not a big threat. The encounter space plays on the expectation the player may have in thinking "Oh this guy? Without backup, in this space? Pfft. EZ-PZ."

    But walking into the space fully will reveal the particular design of the stairs, a dead drop, crossing enemy, and false expectations of exploration leading to your goal; escape.

    If two uniquely occurring enemies were in the same section, or the layout changed- the entire encounter is a different effect than From Software is trying to achieve at that moment.

    There are many instances of this with those gargoyles and familiar tombs in particular. Some of the most mind-blowing "secrets" or interactions I have had in the game come from the mundane tombs when I thought, "Oh this type of place again. Well, I just need to run here, flip the switch... and OMG there is a hidden floor?" "Well, it's just two Imps. No biggie, I will just... Oh, a second balcony & illusory floor the imp revealed because I didn't engage and ran by...."

    They can't build that reactivity and mastery without giving the player a steady diet of expectation. And they don't care if you ever encounter it that way either. There is a lot of daring in the design as so.
    Sure, but I don't see how that requires a bunch of other Catacomb-style dungeons... not having these things. If every dungeon had an interesting hidden secret or something other that makes it stand out, that would make up for the repetition but it's not the case. Which goes back to what I said; the game would be better if it axed the most egregious examples of copy-pasting and sticks to the more interesting encounters. Knowing how spear guy and crossbow guy works doesn't require you to kill dozens of them beforehand. I don't need to run 4 straightforward dungeons to appreciate the one then throwing a curveball.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  14. #1914
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Whhhaa?

    Two of my favorite parts!
    I just found out chariots are killable. How did I not know that?

  15. #1915
    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    I just found out chariots are killable. How did I not know that?
    I did the one under Fringefolk Grave without killing it. Moved on. A few days later my husband told me he discovered more to it. I went back and did the drop down under the bridge.

    By accident, I discovered the pots as I was looking for an escape.

    Later when they take the pots away, in the other Hero Graves, the way you break the chariots is another example of supreme game design. The dead drops, pillars, traps, multiple tracks, etc.

    Genius. Pure game design.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Sure, but I don't see how that requires a bunch of other Catacomb-style dungeons... not having these things.
    I am not sure I understand what you mean here or that you understood my post reply earlier. Frankly.

    If every dungeon had an interesting hidden secret or something other that makes it stand out,
    That makes none of it matter. There has to be some mundanity to make secrets stand out. If everything is special, nothing is special. That any can be special is a different vibe entirely.

    Which goes back to what I said; the game would be better if it axed the most egregious examples of copy-pasting and sticks to the more interesting encounters. the game would be better if it axed the most egregious examples of copy-pasting and sticks to the more interesting encounters. Knowing how spear guy and crossbow guy works doesn't require you to kill dozens of them beforehand. I don't need to run 4 straightforward dungeons to appreciate the one then throwing a curveball.
    This is ignorance. That's exactly how, to use your metaphor, pitching works. That's how one might go about getting the batter off their game.

  16. #1916
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post

    I am not sure I understand what you mean here or that you understood my post reply earlier. Frankly.

    That makes none of it matter. There has to be some mundanity to make secrets stand out. If everything is special, nothing is special. That any can be special is a different vibe entirely.

    This is ignorance. That's exactly how, to use your metaphor, pitching works. That's how one might go about getting the batter off their game.
    It's a different vibe and one I prefer. Not sure I'd call it ignorance out of hand. I mostly have little patience for the feeling of redoing what I already did or reconquering a challenge I've already bested, unless it's in a multiplayer context where other players are involved and they're the ones changing the experience.

    And I wasn't thrown off my game by any significant measure, so from my POV they didn't succeed with the design intent, if it was that at least. It just built up expectations that this time the place would be interesting and then it wasn't. When that happens several times in a row I for one learn to not bother and go through the motions instead of scraping below the surface. I'll reuse that game if I have to, New Vegas has darn near every location be interesting- there's unique enemies, or a story being told, or it's the target of a specific quest or two, there's next to no wasted space that's there for the sake of having another space. This makes the entire adventure noteworthy in my books. That game would absolutely not have benefited from having a dozen more Vault areas, military camps or caves just to make the interesting ones in the game moreso. That said, Elden Ring does benefit a lot from every dungeon giving out a unique reward which does inventive most players to run them anyway, you never know when that place will reward this neat Talisman or Ashes, and mines in particular are always useful for the bounty of upgrade materials they hold. So I'm not saying it's a total failure to engage me or anything. Just that it doesn't succeed as much as it could have. But using typical enemy types and positions to trap or surprise me? It happened a scant handful of times that I remember or fell for it, one of the best examples being those two trebuchets in front of Castle Redmane throwing me from the bridge as I rushed through thinking there was only one. Most of the time I saw it coming from a mile away, especially as I said when it came to giant crabs under items.

    IMO what you describe works for me far more in a linear game. Doom Eternal reuses enemy types and other conventions such as platforming tools many, many times but differences in terrain and configurations, along with the player's ever-expanding toolkit, makes each encounter feel handcrafted regardless because the devs have total control over how and when the player experiences them. Elden Ring doesn't so what works really well for you might not for me. As you said, it could be a mark of confidence for sure. But that doesn't change how I, personally, experienced the game.
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  17. #1917
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's a different vibe and one I prefer.
    Oh totally. The world is wide enough for all different styles. Let me be clear, I am not slamming your position at all. "Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't", so to speak.

    Not sure I'd call it ignorance out of hand.
    Well, I was more talking about the part that quoted with the pitching metaphor. I should have made that clear. My bad, I was trying to quote the part but it's a little clumsy on my phone to quote. The auto-correct misreads the forum formatting.

    That is the goal of a pitching sequence though. To apply it here, which I thought was a good metaphor, they need to feed you some high tight fastballs a few times before throwing a sinker or curveball. That is the entire point of the pitcher/batter conflict- and so to the designer/player dichotomy.

    Now it may be that one is the Ted Williams of video games. I mean, awesome if you are. Though that is not likely the dominant scenario for most at the plate. Which it wasn't, obviously. Most batters strike out more than they hit.

    I mostly have little patience for the feeling of redoing what I already did or reconquering a challenge I've already bested, unless it's in a multiplayer context where other players are involved and they're the ones changing the experience.
    I understand that POV. They obviously weren't catering to it expressly with that design inclusion we are discussing.

    A game with invisible walls, ladders, floors, and hidden trigger events is not being overly precious about our time. Clearly.

    And I wasn't thrown off my game by any significant measure, so from my POV they didn't succeed with the design intent, if it was that at least.
    Well, this part is incorrect though. You personally may not have been 'thrown off' but it is true the game does stymie many players as such.

    There are countless posts, videos, and streams of players getting whacked by a hand-spider coming out the ground, a crossbow dude landing one arrow from behind as they dueled some other foe, a goat ramming someone in the rear, falling off a ledge, underestimating an encounter, et cetera.

    Objectively, From Software was successful or these tales, streams, videos, and posts wouldn't exist to testimony the design encounters in the game get many players even after a fair bit of playtime.

    A few days ago I saw a video of a well-known 'Souls' streamer getting destroyed by the soldiers outside the gate in Stromveil. The dude was 300+ hours into ER and who knows how many 100s of hours in other From games. People still get got even by 'mundane' encounters, relatively speaking.

    Maybe an individual's play experience was so routine they could no-level/bare fist their way through the Capital. I would say that is quite the opposite for the vast majority of players and the design that reinforces that experience is extremely successful.

    It just built up expectations that this time the place would be interesting and then it wasn't. When that happens several times in a row I for one learn to not bother and go through the motions instead of scraping below the surface.
    This is just a personal mentality thing. It does not speak to From's design or why their design exists as it does.

    I'll reuse that game if I have to, New Vegas has darn near every location be interesting- there's unique enemies, or a story being told, or it's the target of a specific quest or two, there's next to no wasted space that's there for the sake of having another space.
    I am not gonna argue against one of the best games made in New Vegas. I mean, of course.

    Though these games are also expressing different things. New Vegas isn't trying to give you an experience of mystery or ambiguity in gameplay expression. It's not trying to design mastery into its encounters for the sake of it alone.

    These are different approaches to different ends by the games. It makes sense for New Vegas to have a lot of economy in its world. Specifically to make those things stand out and seem remarkable. There is a lot of distinction to New Vegas- which as a side note all the other Beth FO games don't have and they mostly are terrible IMO.

    IMO what you describe works for me far more in a linear game. Doom Eternal reuses enemy types and other conventions such as platforming tools many, many times but differences in terrain and configurations, along with the player's ever-expanding toolkit, makes each encounter feel handcrafted regardless because the devs have total control over how and when the player experiences them.
    This is a great point. Naturally, the other From Software games do behave more like Doom Eternal in layering the player's skills/encounter. I think most playing ER have played the other games. So really we all know how they work by now.

    It's a different approach, obviously. One might prefer this style of design in the context of a linear game as you point out. Or the opposite, here in the open world of ER. Again, I would say is pretty effective based on the sales, reviews, and engagement players are having with ER other From Software games have not had to the same degree.

    Elden Ring doesn't so what works really well for you might not for me. As you said, it could be a mark of confidence for sure. But that doesn't change how I, personally, experienced the game.
    Of course. I don't think it is sensible to tell someone how they should or shouldn't, do or don't enjoy entertainment. That's ridiculous.

    I really don't care about or comment on the personal play experience of others for this reason. I am only talking about how they designed some of these things with a mind to why that would work or otherwise be a different experience as a game if changed. That we can apply analysis outside of the individual play experience.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2022-03-29 at 04:54 AM.

  18. #1918
    Quote Originally Posted by xmirrors View Post
    Except I don't. I've killed every boss now up to the Elden Beast and the last handful have not been enjoyable experiences. There is no dopamine, only a "thank God that bullshit is over with". I will literally never do Malenia again as long as I live. I refuse.
    I feel you here. Ive beat all bosses in blood borne and ds1-3 and I’ve never felt about any boss how i do about Maleina (whom I have had down to maybe 1/10 of her health in p2). Any boss that was considered tough in a souls game I’d go back and offer up my help as a summons. Her? The anime sword flurry is just too over the top as a player killer. You take that away and this is a solid fight. Now I have not watched any videos on how to perfectly dodge it, and perhaps that would help, but as it stands she’s a souls boss I don’t want to bother with after the first kill and that’s a first.

    I do feel the game is sloggish now, but it’s just because I’m not having fun on her. It’s also 120 hours in, so the game is likely wearing out its welcome for me. Still will be hard to beat this as game of the year/generation/decade I’d bet.

  19. #1919
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SavoirFaire View Post
    I feel you here. Ive beat all bosses in blood borne and ds1-3 and I’ve never felt about any boss how i do about Maleina (whom I have had down to maybe 1/10 of her health in p2). Any boss that was considered tough in a souls game I’d go back and offer up my help as a summons. Her? The anime sword flurry is just too over the top as a player killer. You take that away and this is a solid fight. Now I have not watched any videos on how to perfectly dodge it, and perhaps that would help, but as it stands she’s a souls boss I don’t want to bother with after the first kill and that’s a first.

    I do feel the game is sloggish now, but it’s just because I’m not having fun on her. It’s also 120 hours in, so the game is likely wearing out its welcome for me. Still will be hard to beat this as game of the year/generation/decade I’d bet.
    I think her blade dance is one of those moves that you're not supposed to try to dodge perfectly. The intent is that you're supposed to haul ass out of range before she lands the beginning swings and then roll out of the way of the remaining swipes if you didn't make it far enough away. That's not always doable but it's meant to punish you if you get greedy. The fight started to slow down for me once I figured that part out.

    She was frustrating at first but she's easily my favorite fight in the game. She's what any fight with a fallen angel/Sephiroth archetype should be; a humbling ass-kicking.
    Last edited by downnola; 2022-03-29 at 07:07 AM.
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  20. #1920
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    I think her blade dance is one of those moves that you're not supposed to try to dodge perfectly. The intent is that you're supposed to haul ass out of range before she lands the beginning swings and then roll out of the way of the remaining swipes if you didn't make it far enough away. That's not always doable but it's meant to punish you if you get greedy. The fight started to slow down for me once I figured that part out.

    She was frustrating at first but she's easily my favorite fight in the game. She's what any fight with a fallen angel/Sephiroth archetype should be; a humbling ass-kicking.
    It doesn't punish greed. It punishes melee characters, even if you aren't greedy. If you are to close when it goes of you still get hit by the first flurry regardless if you are greedy or not. Unless you have godlike subhuman reflexes and run as soon as she jumps up. Which isn't a "punish greedy players" thing.

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