Predictions on a new night elf capital city and zone

[Hellspawn]

Something that I think does not clarify.
For me the wooden buildings are bad. They are supposed to love trees and live for thousands of years. Entocnes has everything you need to make stone buildings.

If they live in wooden houses for me it could only be in Living wood.

Weapons would rather be a necessary evil. (Which at the moment of truth they are always that).

The wooden houses are not carved out of wood instead druids form these constructs naturally.

[geco]

The wooden houses are not carved out of wood instead druids form these constructs naturally.

Not the ones that I remember

[Jackstraw]

I think they will do night elves an injustice if their capital isn't as stunning as the stuff they did for Suramar and Zin'Azshari and it would be weird to force rural architecture in the city when it ist heir galore in rural places for that environment - it proves nothing about night elves.. rather they should show a night elf city properly with a night elf capital, not try to do have rural homes and half city -

Here we go again.

Shall we tiptoe around the usual matter at hand?
There's just no way that an insular people such as the secluded Kaldorei would, all of a sudden, in the midst of the equivalent of a crusade led by their most exponential leader, would turn on its head and decide all of a sudden to go back to integrate the arcane without some exposition that at the moment is not even remotely there.

You quote Maiev's acts and consider them nuts - and rightfully so - but if Maiev is a fringe case the consequences of the Long Vigil is not something you can change in a hot minute.

There could be iterative designs and stuff integrated with nature, something more akin to the Kaldorei culture in the last ten millennia rather than something so heavily rooted in their past. And as already discussed with proper story go on from there, and see the restauration of the arcane and the race moving forward. Something that so far hasn't (yet) been done.

Look, I understand you'd have loved to have Suramar. But the Horde doesn't have the city either, the place is littered with hostiles. Sure, in the geopolitical chess it might be so, but it's something that cannot be used or that just meshes with common sense, like Quel'danas being still swarmed by demons and Silvermoon having less polygons than any new mount.

[geco]

Here we go again.

Shall we tiptoe around the usual matter at hand?
There's just no way that an insular people such as the secluded Kaldorei would, all of a sudden, in the midst of the equivalent of a crusade led by their most exponential leader, would turn on its head and decide all of a sudden to go back to integrate the arcane without some exposition that at the moment is not even remotely there.

You quote Maiev's acts and consider them nuts - and rightfully so - but if Maiev is a fringe case the consequences of the Long Vigil is not something you can change in a hot minute.

There could be iterative designs and stuff integrated with nature, something more akin to the Kaldorei culture in the last ten millennia rather than something so heavily rooted in their past. And as already discussed with proper story go on from there, and see the restauration of the arcane and the race moving forward. Something that so far hasn't (yet) been done.

Look, I understand you'd have loved to have Suramar. But the Horde doesn't have the city either, the place is littered with hostiles. Sure, in the geopolitical chess it might be so, but it's something that cannot be used or that just meshes with common sense, like Quel'danas being still swarmed by demons and Silvermoon having less polygons than any new mount.

In truth After BFA it is easy for them to integrate the arcane again. Because after a war like this it is easy to move on to "everything who was on our side are our best friends and all those who are against us are our worst enemies."

The Highborns were on his side.


What if it is clear that after BFA there is no way that the Kaldoreie are on good terms with Suramar. To them they would be what Tyrande said. Azharas in power.

[Jackstraw]

In truth After BFA it is easy for them to integrate the arcane again.

Quite the opposite in my opinion. Throughout the Darkshore warfront and even before in the War of Thorns campaign I can think of maybe a single arcane unit, and that's either an Ancient or a chimera. After that, there's the Night Warrior ritual and the beginning of the vengeful crusade against Sylvanas.
To me this leaves little wiggle room to make amends with one's own past culture, especially if Tyrande with Malfurion were the ones addressing the arcane ban in the first place and Tyrande being currently busy.

And yes we could argue that the capital could be worked on the side, update Hyjal, raise Zin Azshari from Nazjatar, hell, raze Suramar or take something from Val'sharah.
It still wouldn't make sense.

[Hellspawn]

Quite the opposite in my opinion. Throughout the Darkshore warfront and even before in the War of Thorns campaign I can think of maybe a single arcane unit, and that's either an Ancient or a chimera. After that, there's the Night Warrior ritual and the beginning of the vengeful crusade against Sylvanas.
To me this leaves little wiggle room to make amends with one's own past culture, especially if Tyrande with Malfurion were the ones addressing the arcane ban in the first place and Tyrande being currently busy.

And yes we could argue that the capital could be worked on the side, update Hyjal, raise Zin Azshari from Nazjatar, hell, raze Suramar or take something from Val'sharah.
It still wouldn't make sense.

How is it the opposite? First of what exactly is Malfurion busy currently?
The Shen'dralar are already integrated to some degree since Cataclysm. They also helped the Night Elfs to escape Teldrassil when it burned.
Granted they will probably always be a minor part of the Kaldorei but if they actually creating a new hub I could see them getting their own place instead of standing only next to the temple.

[Jackstraw]

How is it the opposite? First of, with what exactly is Malfurion busy currently?

I was going to argue about him recuperating from his axe wound, but he's active in the Warfront, so I have no basis to further this point. I was mistaken.

The Shen'dralar are already integrated to some degree since Cataclysm. They also helped the Night Elfs to escape Teldrassil when it burned.
Granted they will be probably always a minor part but if they actually creating a new Hub I could see them getting their own place instead of standing only next to the temple.

Of course. The point isn't for the Shen'dralar to be reintegrated but for the arcane to take back its predominant role in the society and as foundation of the Kaldorei culture.

[geco]

Quite the opposite in my opinion. Throughout the Darkshore warfront and even before in the War of Thorns campaign I can think of maybe a single arcane unit, and that's either an Ancient or a chimera. After that, there's the Night Warrior ritual and the beginning of the vengeful crusade against Sylvanas.
To me this leaves little wiggle room to make amends with one's own past culture, especially if Tyrande with Malfurion were the ones addressing the arcane ban in the first place and Tyrande being currently busy.

And yes we could argue that the capital could be worked on the side, update Hyjal, raise Zin Azshari from Nazjatar, hell, raze Suramar or take something from Val'sharah.
It still wouldn't make sense.

The evacuees from Teldrassil is thanks to the fact that the Highborne Magicians begin to open more portals to the point that they prefer to stay keeping the portal open instead of evacuating.

[Hellspawn]

I was going to argue about him recuperating from his axe wound, but he's active in the Warfront, so I have no basis to further this point. I was mistaken.


Of course. The point isn't for the Shen'dralar to be reintegrated but for the arcane to take back its predominant role in the society and as foundation of the Kaldorei culture.

Their pre dominant position of Mages/Highborne happened more in the mid to late state of the Kaldorei Empire. Early on they were very close to nature.
That's not gonna happen. We already have blood elves and night borne for that fantasy that.
I would enjoy if they would rebuild the Moonguard though.

[Jackstraw]

Their pre dominant position of Mages/Highborne happened more in the mid to late state of the Kaldorei Empire. Early on they were very close to nature.
That's not gonna happen. We already have blood elves and night borne for that fantasy that.
I would enjoy if they would rebuild the Moonguard though.

We went back and forth with this both with Ravenmoon and Mace: yes, absolutely! It would be great to see the arcane being rediscovered, and going from rejection to skepticism to tolerance to acceptance to prominence.
We're currently in the acceptance stage going all the way back when the Shal'dorei wouldn't even get an audience with Tyrande, and it would be nice to see the Kaldorei wounds being healed by getting back something they so adamantly distanced from, aside from Nightborne and Sin'dorei. Or with Nightborne and Sin'dorei, why not: a true restauration of the founding place of elvendom. Maybe even the start for a future without factions.

But as it stands, Tyrande is consumed by her singular purpose and ten millennia of cultural differences are bound to weight on the speed in which culture can shift.

[ravenmoon]

Here we go again.

Shall we tiptoe around the usual matter at hand?
There's just no way that an insular people such as the secluded Kaldorei would, all of a sudden, in the midst of the equivalent of a crusade led by their most exponential leader, would turn on its head and decide all of a sudden to go back to integrate the arcane without some exposition that at the moment is not even remotely there.

you did see the temple of Elune's i posted right... night elf architectural style has nothign to do with the arcane.. the aracne and nature magica are a means to build the incredible styles, theya re not a symbol of the architecture.

Haivng highborne to use arcane magic to build the city is just one way to explain how it is so grand, nothign else, they could easily write them building similar without highborne.. magic just makes things go faster..and unless you have floating towers like the blood leves do, it isn't essential, there is nothing in the lore that says it is, so they don't have to. it's just a precedence that current circumstances allow them to create again from a lore perspective to the extent of our knowledge.

You quote Maiev's acts and consider them nuts - and rightfully so - but if Maiev is a fringe case the consequences of the Long Vigil is not something you can change in a hot minute.

I only useMaiev to point to people who use her as some sort of standard of how night elves feel, she isn't she is quite the exception.. ngihte lves views on arcane magic are rooted in intleligence and the logic of hte information they had at the day. There isn't arcane hate, htere was fear first and foremost of using it woudl bring hte legion, legion meant world destruction so no. There was a much lesser concern but concern all the same of addiction.

Hatrd was directed tot he Highborne, ythese players don't know nighte lf loore well, ALL nighte lves around today who lived 10,000 years ago, used the aracne, and started form little children learning alongside reading and writing (WotA tells us this, and Suramar in game shows us this)... the arrogance of hte highborne and their reckless use of magic is blamed on them, it is not blamed on teh arcane. While addiction is an issue, these peopel got htemsleves addicted in thier pride, as they would lord it over their kin in other castes - the ire is against the Highboren, but htat too fades,

Night elves are descirbed as benevolent, they opened their arms ot reconcilation, Wolfheart and cataclysm shows, Malfurion iterates it woudl be a process.. and Maiev was stirrigng up hatred. maiev's view is the exception, it is not rooted in logic but in pain and hatred that she took relaly hard, but htis is also what forms her character and incredible skill in her job as well.

Comments about her are explored in depth in the novel Illidan - that most don't read, and the events that caused her to snap, are described in the War of the Ancients, that most don't read either.

There could be iterative designs and stuff integrated with nature, something more akin to the Kaldorei culture in the last ten millennia rather than something so heavily rooted in their past. And as already discussed with proper story go on from there, and see the restauration of the arcane and the race moving forward. Something that so far hasn't (yet) been done.

Yes, there could be, and it could be amazing, no doubt, like this Lothlorien esque version from the Travleler art:



if it's incredible I will love it, and appreciate it, and enjoy it, that would mean we have 4 unique styles... Suramar, Zin'Azshari, Eldre'thalas and this new city - more the merrier - but this would be like the 3rd iteration, it's chances are very unlikely, if you understand night elf lore, the architecture is already established per pattern and location. This is not a young race, discovering itself, it already has well established styles for both rural and city urban that are over 10,000 years old

Those druidic like forest homes ARE NOT NEW ARCHIECTURE, they've been around form before the sundering, in forest locations, neither are the city ones. There isn't lore reason for a new capital to iterate - but that's not to say one could be created for they could just ignore that precedence, but, know that they build these things according to their lore. If night elves are heavily featured in another expansion down the line, we could well see that new iteration, but until then - it won't happen - no grand new style has ever come in patches. New styles have come, but they've been shitty compared to what they do when hey are launching for an expansion.

If they've done one for city and one for rural, they're most likely to use that.. they can knock themselves outwith some A* grade new envisioning for night elves with a cool iterative style.. as shown in the illustrations here




and here



Look carefully at the buildings in both Silvermoon and Zin'Azshari art -

What you may not have noticed iun the pictures o Zin'Azshri, in the ruins of Meredil, are marble versions of those wooden structures.. They have ALREADY adapted them into the city architecture you see in game, these were done before Legion released, and they've iterated on that already to give what you saw in Suramar and Zin'Azshari - basically even better versions. While a full Zin'azshari would have more to show than the sanpshot frame we saw in Warbringers and could very well also contain more of htose buildings, ..look, they're going to look nice, they're going to be grand. In some of their cities and towns.. they show this in the ruins and in some of the buildings without the wood planks they don't have that curve up, they're straight and "tidied". Very night elfy - both of them having both styles, but in fashion that fits a city, not a country lodge or village.

But as you say, they could do something unique again... but honestly.. why? Zin'Azshari and Suramar are gorgeous, the rural forest homes are lovely for what they are and where they are - they'll continue to be there. A city doesn't change that.

but up to them.

Look, I understand you'd have loved to have Suramar. But the Horde doesn't have the city either, the place is littered with hostiles. Sure, in the geopolitical chess it might be so, but it's something that cannot be used or that just meshes with common sense, like Quel'danas being still swarmed by demons and Silvermoon having less polygons than any new mount.

Being horde has nothing to do with it and I am fully aware it is a mess geopolitically, and it is still very easy to write it in as the new capital city for night elves with just advancing the story of the area to make it so - I am also aware it's the easiest option to avoid building a great new capital.. but eithe rway it doesn't matter, Nightborne are night elven, and the city is night elven , it is neither alliance nor horde. Blizzard can easily make it the capital both for Night elves and Nightborne. The horde didn't build it, it isn't horde architecture, it's not really relevant that it is on the horde, or even that I like it. I like Zin'Azshari too.. but you know what, I like Silvermoon too, and I liked Kezan, I liked Gilneas, and I loved Dazar'alor, i Liked Shattrath in WoD - but I only want Suramar/Zin'Azshari type for a night elf capital, because that is night elven style and it's nice.

If they can come up with something even more beautiful and stunning through an iterative process, i'd love that too.. but too be honest.












Are stunning enough as they are.

You do realise if they build another new version style city, it doesn't stop Zin'Azshari nor Suramar from being night elven right? If it's beautiful I'd love the new city just as much, just like I love Suramar, love Zin'Azshari and really love the great art work they do. I like that they did night elven civilization justice.

Whatever they choose for a new capital city, i want to have the same wow factor, the same night elf feel the two cities they've shown in their pristine state have.










All these are night elf architecture.. it's really nice.. use it. And if they can make even nicer with adapting the forest homes further.. I'm all for it, but I do note the citeis and temples like this we have are already the adapted versions.

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Something that I think does not clarify.
For me the wooden buildings are bad. They are supposed to love trees and live for thousands of years. Entocnes has everything you need to make stone buildings.

If they live in wooden houses for me it could only be in Living wood.

Weapons would rather be a necessary evil. (Which at the moment of truth they are always that).

Yes, exactly.
From an ideolgoical point of view of how night elves are written to view nature, the forest and trees, and how they are shown, .. wooden buildings in a city make no sense.


1. Even if living wood, they would consider it distorting a tree.. it's one thing if you have the odd home and the forest yields, it's another thing if you doing this for a city with thousands of people when you have magic that can extract marble and stone instead.

2. Look at where the druids live, they don't live in the tree homes, they live in totally undisturbed nature, in barrow dens, which they furnish with elegant but simple pieces - that reflects their philosophy. it's the philosophy of the class/discipline - priests are the opposite, they have magnificent temples to Elune - and when night elves build cities, whether Highborne or not, they do so with their lovely architecture.

If you're living in a forest in a small community, in an era you can't use arcane magic, well those few buildings make sense, you can imagine night elves all over the place, when you are immune to the elements, not feeling heat or cold, like mortals do, well it doesn't make that much difference especially when you are not about building civilizations (this is during the long vigil).. it's much different now, Long Vigil is over, isolation is voer, ban on arcane is over... night elves have allies, night elves are ding civilization again, building families, replenishing their race, they have their own stile, even though it was 10,000 years ago, it is still their style, and frankly everyone else's is inferior to it in terms of beauty and craft - I would think they are proud of the excellent things they do, not ashamed.

People use the shame of the sundering as some sort of excuse not understanding what they were ashamed of. they weren't ashamed of the things they did right, the beautiful things they made, the excellence of character, the uprightness, the order and structure, and host of other things.. they are ashamed of the arrogance and haughtiness and addiction that led to the state they were.. it's not beauty or elegant buildings or excellence in achievement, study, art, craft that accused the fall. It's conceit, arrogance, hubris, addiction - not arcane magic, the Legion destroyed things, and that is where the focus is.

night elves have no reason for anyone who reads their story properly to go, oh, we hate our beautiful temples and our beautiful cities - then why the fuck are you so angry with the Legion for destroying your civilization if you hated it so much? answer = they didn't hate their civilization or their great accomplishments - the legion and hte people who betrayed them to the legion..

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Not the ones that I remember

He isn't wrong, the wisps use magic to shape the wood of the trees.. The reason why night elves and orcs have issues is over that. Night elves use living wood - but it is precious - what this tells me is that when wood is needed, they ask of the forest psirits and the wisps - a very druidic thing - (well druids do it), and they work on things to build the wood.

The thing is night elves imposed heavy restiictions and limit on the wood to orcs, orcs were like WTF.. you have tons, what's this shit, we're taking it.

Night elves won't use wood in large quantities if, especially if they can avoid it.. the thing is, during the long vigil, without the arcane, this became their only option. little to no infrastructure to build anything, but the thing is the Long vigil didn't require the normal things a nation and civilization need.

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Quite the opposite in my opinion. Throughout the Darkshore warfront and even before in the War of Thorns campaign I can think of maybe a single arcane unit, and that's either an Ancient or a chimera. After that, there's the Night Warrior ritual and the beginning of the vengeful crusade against Sylvanas.
To me this leaves little wiggle room to make amends with one's own past culture, especially if Tyrande with Malfurion were the ones addressing the arcane ban in the first place and Tyrande being currently busy.

And yes we could argue that the capital could be worked on the side, update Hyjal, raise Zin Azshari from Nazjatar, hell, raze Suramar or take something from Val'sharah.
It still wouldn't make sense.

Many of the arcane units are with teh Kirin'tor and alliance army it seems. WoT they were used for portals.

Darkshore was intentionally using the WC3 units - the devs said so. this is why you don't see demon hunters, or mages.

the BFA cinematic used night elf mages, the assaults use them, they been showing up for the alliance since MoP after their Cata introduction. They are the portal makers and mage units in WoD, in Legion - not counting the non-affiliated night elven groups like Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne - you have them showing up as Kirin'tor mages, the puzzle night elf with the sabers, the Starwhisper Twins.

note htey are absent from the Suramar forces that accompany Tyrande. - but then so are the druids, , so are the wardens, so are the demon hunters. Moonguard are there, and Suramar night elves, but they're with the Nightborne forces.

But that's no indication of how they'll go, they are a loved part of the night elves, and blizzard isn't going to get rid of night elven mages, nor Highborne, and they certainly aren't going to ditch the kaldorei pre-sundering lore to the Nightborne, now they know how much night elf fans care for that side too. They are fully aware it is not an either /or with allied races.. only some players think so, .. every allied race is a reflection or a facet of their main race..whether they're in the same faction or opposite. This goes for Nightborne and Void eves too. Night elves don't lose their pre-sundering history, or ditch it because Nightborne are now on the horde and it doesn't make their lore now automatically horde lore. No, it's still night elf lore, and you're just getting night elves on the horde too.

the original night elves will have more than just the arcane side, more than just the civilization side, they would have the civilization, the priest, the druidic side, the demon hunters, because they are the full race. Nightborne having it doesn't exclude Night elves, nor do void elves being great arcane magic users, somehow substitute blood elves, or Highmountain being great shamans, somehow make Tauren now poor at it, or no longer relevant. same with Lightforged and the light to draenei.


It's not a substitution, it's just an opportunity to play a different model and experience more of the same thing really in an alternate setting.. that's all.

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Their pre dominant position of Mages/Highborne happened more in the mid to late state of the Kaldorei Empire. Early on they were very close to nature.
That's not gonna happen. We already have blood elves and night borne for that fantasy that.
I would enjoy if they would rebuild the Moonguard though.

and we have void elves too, and we have night elves too for that fantasy, just because we have different elf groups doesn't mean that part doesn't play.

Nightborne are not exclusive owners of kaldorei civilization, like every allied race, they are just a subset of the main race, showing an aspect of it.. same with Highmountain, void elves Lightforged etc.


Still, it helps for each elven race to have things that separate it from others.. Night elves however are the original elven race, they have all the parts.. Arcane is not what distinguishes blood elves from the others. all elves have that.. Night elves void elves, high elves, Nightborne and blood elves...

Blood elves have the light.. high elves their ranger thing, night elves their druid and priest thing, high elves their Farstrider ranger wood elf thing, void elves their void thing.


Night elves are not 1/4 of the elven spectrum., they are the full spectrum, the others are portions of it with their own twist. Nightborne are the least unique because they are basically just Highborne and arcane night elves. still Suramar and their appearance makes them feel a bit unique, so there is that.

So are we to say because Nightborne do arcane, blood elves don't or shouldn't.. okay.. you don't like that so you say, Nightborne and blood elves have that.. but erm..excuse me, void elves and night elves have that too, and it's no small part of their lore too. so because the recent show has been the void and druidism, do we ignore all the bits that have shown the arcane ?

No, so we say night elves can't do civilization because that's Nightborne now? won't do great cities, because that's their past now, and that's for their sub -race.. haha.. an alliance and night elf fan will never agree.

[Aresk]

the Wardens do establish the vault after WC3 - or at last I think they did, preusmably after her disagreement with Tyrande, they establish it there. i don't nkow the lore of the Vault of the Wardens, was it htere all thoguhout hte long vigil/ It seems very grand and ancient, yet, the night elves of Kalidmro didn't leave to go south of Ashenvale (very rare excpetionsonce every few generations of Tauren, and the war of the shifting sands -where the only way the lore in Feralas can be maintained is if they sailed or

Vault of the Wardens dates back to after the War of the Ancients, based on a few references (Illysanna Ravencrest was imprisoned there after the War of the Ancients for ten thousand years, and the ceremonial warglaive has the flavor text "A weapon of formality from an age when a posting to the Vault of the Wardens was considered prestigious."). It's not clear to me how the Wardens had this vault and how Maiev seemed so awe-struck to be returning to the Broken Isles during TFT...

Naisha: Mistress, we followed Illidan's course due east as you asked, but these strange islands do not appear on any of our maps.
Maiev Shadowsong: I suspected as much. These islands must have been formed only recently.
Naisha: What makes you say that?
Maiev Shadowsong: The ruins all around us, Naisha... I recognize them.
Maiev Shadowsong: This was once the great city of Suramar, built before our civilization was blasted beneath the sea ten thousand years ago.
Naisha: But how could... Are you suggesting that these islands were somehow raised from the seafloor?
Maiev Shadowsong: Perhaps, though there are few powers left in the world capable of raising islands from the deeps. Regardless, it's a mystery we'll have to solve later. We'd best head inland and set up a base camp. Once we're situated, we'll pick up Illidan's trail.

...but we'll just chalk it up to more Legion retcons.

[Jackstraw]

So are we to say because Nightborne do arcane, blood elves don't or shouldn't.. okay.. you don't like that so you say, Nightborne and blood elves have that.. but erm..excuse me, void elves and night elves have that too, and it's no small part of their lore too. so because the recent show has been the void and druidism, do we ignore all the bits that have shown the arcane ?

No, so we say night elves can't do civilization because that's Nightborne now? won't do great cities, because that's their past now, and that's for their sub -race.. haha.. an alliance and night elf fan will never agree.

Ren'dorei can do spires and the Thalassian architecture of floating towers and integrate it with the shadowy twists of the void.
Kaldorei for all intents and purposes have all the rights to great majestic cities. However, and I'll maintain this point for as long as you're willing to debate it, you know I like those conversations we have, after ten millennia I just don't see how those would be heavily urbanized when I'd rather see the overall design be similar to Teldrassil, with some sprinkles of arcane in its foundations but otherwise meshing harmoniously with nature. More Val'sharah than Suramar, at least at the beginning.

As I said, I'd like a cycle to play out. Not a brunt stroke and here we are with a blank slate.

[ravenmoon]

Vault of the Wardens dates back to after the War of the Ancients, based on a few references (Illysanna Ravencrest was imprisoned there after the War of the Ancients for ten thousand years, and the ceremonial warglaive has the flavor text "A weapon of formality from an age when a posting to the Vault of the Wardens was considered prestigious."). It's not clear to me how the Wardens had this vault and how Maiev seemed so awe-struck to be returning to the Broken Isles during TFT...



...but we'll just chalk it up to more Legion retcons.

Ah, thanks for that.. yeh, in the finer detail, sometimes I'm not sure what is retcon or just new revelation. They said the night elves were totally isolated in Northern Kalimdor, Feralas they hadn't bene to in 10 millennium, nor had they been tot he broken isles...
I shall reinterpret it to mean, that as a group or as a force the y hadn't been, this doesn't mean few individuals hadn't made trips or even the wardens setting up their vault, presumably , since the war of the ancients and building the thing, they'd have had very little cause to go their regularly until Wc3 or maybe they did, and that is just a few elite members of Maiev's picking.

or I should just face it, it's a retcon, nothing more complicated. I still try to see fit here is a way all the pieces of information fit, even when they seem to conflict. Mostly I do find a way, but every now and then, I'm at a loss, and inconsistency in the lore does no favours to this, you can never be sure which version or which statement to fully trust.

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Ren'dorei can do spires and the Thalassian architecture of floating towers and integrate it with the shadowy twists of the void.

Spires with tendrils will be a good adaptation, biased on Thalassian architecture.. we can haev that because they've never done independent architecture for void elves .

Do you know who else they haven't done independent architecture for? Nightborne. Nightborne have built nothing since transforming to Nightborne, like void and blood elves current architecture is still high elves, so to Nightborne architecture is still Night elven. If they were to do something for Nightborne in the future with a new style, that would make sense, marking them as departing from their kaldorei culture and civilization. But I don't think we will see this unless the Night elves take over Suramar and kick the Nightborne out.

Kaldorei for all intents and purposes have all the rights to great majestic cities. However, and I'll maintain this point for as long as you're willing to debate it, you know I like those conversations we have, after ten millennia I just don't see how those would be heavily urbanized when I'd rather see the overall design be similar to Teldrassil,

having a great city doesn't mean the race has fully urbanised, full urbanisation would mean tons of cities at the volume and extent of the pre-sundeirng era, one great city does not full urbanisation make..

but a city is a city, it's not a city if it's partly rural... you would call the bits with buidings and infrastructure, city, and the bits without ..outside the city.[/QUOTE]

with some sprinkles of arcane in its foundations but otherwise meshing harmoniously with nature. More Val'sharah than Suramar, at least at the beginning.

As I said, I'd like a cycle to play out. Not a brunt stroke and here we are with a blank slate.

What constitutes "sprinkles" of arcane? Great architecture? or magic being wielded in the streets? Having great architecture whether built with arcane and nature magic or not, is not "sprinkles" of arcane. When you say sprinkles of arcane I expect evidence of arcane usage and displays in the city, like arcane golems, spires lit with arcane energy/magic, arcane wells called moonwells powering things.

The truth is the night elves actually combine all these things, I wouldn't be surprised to see in the city, arcane golems as well as Ancients of wind/lore/wonder, protectors, and other symbols of the various aspects of the night elves, because that's how they are defined. Did you not know ancients walked the streets of Eldre'thalas (a Highborne city), Zin'Azshari 9 a night elf city) and Suramar (a night elf city) - the reason you don't see in Suramar is because they joined the war effort, with the priesthood , only those either too afraid, too weak/injured or following Elisande stayed.

What you see in Val'sharah is not city, it's village, rural forest homes - in the forest - they want a place that is closest to the Emerald dream = no sign of civilization, this is the druids' ideal, I'm telling you, you don't show druidism in a city via buildings. The only way to show it is via gardens and parks, walking ancients - druidism is in the forest itself, in the barrow dens and wild nature. A night elf city doesn't need to have tree homes to show druidism or nature love.

Druidism, in a city?
Erm, wrong place. forest , not city is where druidism lies, what you want to show in a night elf city is a lot of nature love, not force druids into buildings and living in close quarters. And you show nature love through beautiful gardens, and having parks in your city walking ancients.


This is how you show druidic side, and nature love in a city,



[art images by Anndr and Eepox and Ala]

Not filling it with these types of buildings, meant for rural areas, isolated spots.




You could have a tree building like Aldrassil on one tree in a park in the city, that's it TOPS, the rest would be natural and in a city you'd do something special for the wokway and the attached strucutre.. but ot expect a city of htis or even a quadrant.. no, nautre love and druidism is shown through gardens, parks, walking trees and animals, not in tree homes, druids don't even do those in a forest and they're not going to be in large quantities in a city.. did you not see Dranssus had liek 1 building for them, that's it.


For a city, have walking ancients moving between the parks, through the city.

+ + +

This is how yo udo a city, Darnassus is the earlier version, Suramar and Zin'Azshari the upgraded versions. you display arcane and nature in different ways.. glowy arcane runes and constructs for arcane, flowers, gardens, and ancients for druidism -

You can have druids living in the ancients that walk around the city going from parks to park, -show some insight that they work on a different cycle, saying days, even weeks to months at a time in one spot then moving to the other, and they are sentient.. this is how you show it in a city.

Darnassus already shows the model, you don't have tree homes littering there, and it's easy to see those wood based homes for craftsmen and tradesmen be properly upgraded to marble.. they don't have to be wood to show night elves are nature, or love nature. Night elves are arcane and nature, it's all over the race - arcane shows in spells druids cast, priests casts, mages cast, it shows in the skin colour, the eye glow colour and most of the hair colours, it shows in the well of Eternity and Moonwells, nature shows in the trees and flowers, the presence of lots of plants and animals. Elune love shows in the great temples.
Not by having this type of architecture.



but this


[image by Epoxx]

i.e. Homes, but with lots of flowers and gardens... Highborne sections will have less flowers more ornamentation.. that is the difference. It's not wood for night elves and marble for Highborne- that was never ever the case since blizzard started doing night elven cities.



Suramar shows a perfect example between the noble type elite Highborne and lowborne - buildings are equally beautiful in architectural style, but the elite section is more heavily guilded and ornate, having more jewels. It also has nature - they are night elves, but it's a lot less. And before you think only Highborne do beautiful gilded stuff, check out what the priests do.



in this recolouring of the Cathedral of Eternal night, hipnosworld (the artist) gives a view of what it would be like in the normal night elf colours.. look Elune stuff also has glowy magical energy and jewels too, in very fancy architecture.. not just Highborne.

Night elves have multi-faceted and very distinctive aspects tot hem in both the nature and arcane, in their religion and the demon hunters – they are designed that way, they are not designed as part of a faction such as the alliance, like the high elves were, but their own entire civilization – with multiple variations. We have to take that into account.

Druidic lifestyle is unique from the female led priesthood night elf group even in the long vigil.. they shared a similar environment had had the same mandate, but druids had a pact and their own lifestyle, totally humble dedicated to the natural cycle – the priests aren’t at all, they are totally dedicated to Elune, and people in the night elf nation, not druids, have other professions and activities, the entire druidic community is dedicated to nature, and it isn’t all of the night elves you have the civilization side,

WC3 showed the female nation, and the druids in part, but WotA trilogy and the wc3 manual wrote extensively about the civilization, later on in wow, blizzard has shown all 3, and more, including the demon hunters too.


Blizzard has extensively given us examples, night elves in a city look like this, and night lves in the middle of a forest look like this. Night elves in a stronghold look like this, night elves in a rural remote area use this.. Their cities show evidence of nature and arcane - always. there are animals, and plants, ancients and constructs. this is just what they are. That mix is theirs.

[shoc]

What's wrong with Val'sharah + Azsuna as the new Night Elf home territory? Between the two of them it's got - Blackrook Hold (HQ for the Sentinel Military) the Grove of Cenarius and the Dreamgrove (spiritual centers of Night Elf Druidism), the Temple of Elune (spiritual center of Night Elf Priesthood), loads of ruined Night Elven towns and small cities scattered throughout both that can be cleansed of Nightmare/Legion/Ghosts/Naga to be normal again.

[Beloren]

@Jackstraw The way I understand it is a Kaldorei capital city, grand or wooden doesn’t make them an urbanised people.

They could have several cities and still not be an urban centred race if the bigger half of the population is forested and not in cities, towns or bigger villages.

But then then Kaldorei are neither a 100% forested race, nor a 100% urban race.

Even with a Zon’Azshari type city they won’t be like the Nightborne who are an entirely urbanised sub race with just a city.
@ravenmoon if blizzard do a wooden new style city for night elves it would likely be an artistic choice rather than one based on lore. You’ve stated correctly they’ve already established their architecture extensively and based on their lore. If they decide to change the style again it would be artistic reasons which they may or may not write lore to justify

- - - Updated - - -

What's wrong with Val'sharah + Azsuna as the new Night Elf home territory? Between the two of them it's got - Blackrook Hold (HQ for the Sentinel Military) the Grove of Cenarius and the Dreamgrove (spiritual centers of Night Elf Druidism), the Temple of Elune (spiritual center of Night Elf Priesthood), loads of ruined Night Elven towns and small cities scattered throughout both that can be cleansed of Nightmare/Legion/Ghosts/Naga to be normal again.

It’s horde. Or it should be. Nightborne can expand and the night elves there be part of the horde instead just like high elves.

In theory it’s fine for night elf alliance base, but ever since Nightborne went horde it’s gonna be weird. Two horde races there. The island should go red and it instead of Zuldazar should be the horde launching platform against the alliance EK and kul’tiras seeing its much closer.

The alternative is the alliance night elves get Suramar which nobody wants, except Ravenmoon abs a few alliance crazies.

That ship sailed in 7.3.5 no matter how much they want it or churn out examples of how it could become night elven capital. Blizzard won’t do that to the horde.

This leaves Kalimdor only realistically.

[shoc]

@Jackstraw The way I understand it is a Kaldorei capital city, grand or wooden doesn’t make them an urbanised people.

They could have several cities and still not be an urban centred race if the bigger half of the population is forested and not in cities, towns or bigger villages.

But then then Kaldorei are neither a 100% forested race, nor a 100% urban race.

Even with a Zon’Azshari type city they won’t be like the Nightborne who are an entirely urbanised sub race with just a city.
@ravenmoon if blizzard do a wooden new style city for night elves it would likely be an artistic choice rather than one based on lore. You’ve stated correctly they’ve already established their architecture extensively and based on their lore. If they decide to change the style again it would be artistic reasons which they may or may not write lore to justify

- - - Updated - - -



It’s horde. Or it should be. Nightborne can expand and the night elves there be part of the horde instead just like high elves.

In theory it’s fine for night elf alliance base, but ever since Nightborne went horde it’s gonna be weird. Two horde races there. The island should go red and it instead of Zuldazar should be the horde launching platform against the alliance EK and kul’tiras seeing its much closer.

The alternative is the alliance night elves get Suramar which nobody wants, except Ravenmoon abs a few alliance crazies.

That ship sailed in 7.3.5 no matter how much they want it or churn out examples of how it could become night elven capital. Blizzard won’t do that to the horde.

This leaves Kalimdor only realistically.

I mean, that is all assuming the Night Elves even need or get a capital city again in the first place. Races having capitals is a relic of vanilla and TBC and doesn't even really make sense, nor are they a useful use of game resources.

[Beloren]

I mean, that is all assuming the Night Elves even need or get a capital city again in the first place. Races having capitals is a relic of vanilla and TBC and doesn't even really make sense, nor are they a useful use of game resources.

Capitals mean a lot for players. Especially those into their races.

Blizzard makes race selection so personalised with their high levels of individualism and extensive lore.

People fall in love with races because of their unique aesthetics their unique lore elements. Like a forest elf or Highborne NElf or all female warrior priest led community. - which are the three main attractions to night elves. Each having their own vibe.

For blood elves it’s the high elf fantasy, the gorgeous aesthetics, the high magic and the forest wood elf type farstriders - etc

Each race has its thing or several things. So players take pride. Most of the players are urban minded. So even when a race isn’t necessarily. Like Tauren, a city is still a big thing. Even if it isn’t used.

It is also a matter of pride.

But there are reasons cities are needed when you have a race operating like most of the player races do. That’s why they all have one

[Tanaria]

[MENTION=1460006]
Night elves are not going to build a wooden city for a capital, that is not the place for it, nor is it in line with night elven druidism - i don't see them distoring that many trees for homes @Tanaria

When I say "wooden" I mean, a very heavily forest themed city, just like Darnassus.

A city that is extremely intertwined with nature.

That is what the next capital city of the night elves should look like, with a large Temple of Elune HQ. Now, the Temple isn't going to be an extremely large "Tomb of Sargeras" Temple - it's not practical to use it in the context of being a place where Tyrande and Malfurion stand. It should likely be something that is a good mix between the Temple within Val'Sharah and the Temple within Darnassus. A large Moonwell with Haidene's statue is pretty much essential.

The buildings should look like those of Darnassus, but updated. So, heavily nature-looking, but night elf coloured buildings.

It seems to me, that Blizzard are very "forest" themed with the Alliance Night Elves. I mean, they base themselves at Mt Hyjal. The Darkshore Warfront was all about "What happens when you step foot into the kaldorei forests..." The Night Elf spirits in Ardenweald are glad to be back in such a beautiful forest. This isn't conjecture - this is a fact. I think Blizzard would greatly benefit from having this as the capital city, so people who want that feeling of the Warcraft 3 Night Elves, with forests, strong druidism, priesthood, sentinels, wardens etc - can get those feels.

Those who like night elf mages/highborne and everything associated with them, will have their own city (won't be the night elf capital), but will have their own city and large quest hub in Feralas with a restored Eldre'Thalas. Dire Maul West will be added to the Azerothian Map and here you see more lowborne night elf mage students, learning the arcane from the Shen'dralar, but also the Quel'dorei High Elves, the Ren'dorei and Night Elf Mages, who have become tutors like Vestia Moonspear.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

When I say "wooden" I mean, a very heavily forest themed city, just like Darnassus.

A city that is extremely intertwined with nature.

That is what the next capital city of the night elves should look like, with a large Temple of Elune HQ. Now, the Temple isn't going to be an extremely large "Tomb of Sargeras" Temple - it's not practical to use it in the context of being a place where Tyrande and Malfurion stand. It should likely be something that is a good mix between the Temple within Val'Sharah and the Temple within Darnassus. A large Moonwell with Haidene's statue is pretty much essential.

The buildings should look like those of Darnassus, but updated. So, heavily nature-looking, but night elf coloured buildings.

It seems to me, that Blizzard are very "forest" themed with the Alliance Night Elves. I mean, they base themselves at Mt Hyjal. The Darkshore Warfront was all about "What happens when you step foot into the kaldorei forests..." The Night Elf spirits in Ardenweald are glad to be back in such a beautiful forest. This isn't conjecture - this is a fact. I think Blizzard would greatly benefit from having this as the capital city, so people who want that feeling of the Warcraft 3 Night Elves, with forests, strong druidism, priesthood, sentinels, wardens etc - can get those feels.

Those who like night elf mages/highborne and everything associated with them, will have their own city (won't be the night elf capital), but will have their own city and large quest hub in Feralas with a restored Eldre'Thalas. Dire Maul West will be added to the Azerothian Map and here you see more lowborne night elf mage students, learning the arcane from the Shen'dralar, but also the Quel'dorei High Elves, the Ren'dorei and Night Elf Mages, who have become tutors like Vestia Moonspear.

There should be a paladin training section for new Night Elves paladins with Delias Moonfang and Draenei, both normal and lightforged, as teachers in the new temple of Elune.

And Draenei should also send some help to train new NE mages too.