Predictions on a new night elf capital city and zone

[saintminya]

That makes as much sense as giving Silvermoon to the void elves.

Oh I know it wouldn't. I did enjoy seeing Undead architecture in Darkshore, and was annoyed that the warfront amounted to nothing, but it really wouldn't make much sense to have an Undead capital there. Silverpine or either of the Plaguelands are where they really ought to settle.

I am semi-serious about wanting to re-do the warfront, but not to give it to the Undead.

[Niter]

It would make me happy to see the Night Elves go back to their ancestral land, and that is Ashenvale. It wouldn't be a single city, since it doesn't really make sense for the Night Elves to live in large cities to begin with, so they would rebuild and repopulate Astranaar, Silverwind Refuge, fortify and build more settlements in Forest Song to block Horde's attacks. At the same time, there could be a nice settlement in Hyjal all around the world tree. I'd love it if they rebuilt Auberdine, made it a port/trade city, and that the captains of the ships arriving there told the adventurers that Auberdine is open for commerce, but adventuring further into Darkshore is off-limits to anyone who isn't Kaldorei.

[ravenmoon]

This option stood out to me the most. and that is because of the amazing art Chronicles and Warbringers have produced:




If you'd ask me, Zin-Azshari and Dire Maul are prime places for a new Night elf capital (too bad Zin-Azshari is basically Naz'jatar , but we could be visiting it in a time-travel expansion Azshara )



The Highborne could, literally, invite the Night elves to Dire Maul (or Eldere'thalas, more elegantly) since they were hosted in Teldrassil by the Night elves, and refurbish it to look more modern.

Restore the Night Elves to their old glory!

I have a gut feeling that they did it (burning of Teldrassil) on purpose and drew these amazing art pieces to indicate for us what would be their new home (or places we visit, at least, in the future).


.

With Suramar gone. My ideal would be Zin'Azshari restored under it's original name of Elundris. but i have no idea how they can and will make this happen. Because it requires the night elves becoming great again and something major happening in the world that is positive.

And we all know only major disasters and conflicts happen in Warcraft.. not major good things.. they really don't know how to balance calamity with fortune. it's always the world being destroyed or on the rink and barely able to save it. A cataclysm and a sundering happened, but nothing of comparable magnitude in the positive direction.

From a limited perspective I can only think maybe Suramar would be won or shared, or Azsuna rebuilt into a paradise, or Hyjal receive some update or Dire Maul completely reworked into something incredible looking. I can only imagine the limited, because they give no room to imagine positive things of large magnitude.

We can only imagine great evil or great calamity for Azeroth, but must have small visions for good things.

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1-3. No, I don't think it will happen. I'm getting a sense from the dialogue we've seen that the Night Elves will become nomadic fixer-uppers of places. They'll bimble around old sites trying to give them a face lift and restore the good old days.

4. Honestly and I speak as a Night Elf fan, I wish Blizzard and those writing the lore would just leave us be! We've been used as punching bags for years, the writing has been inconsistent at best. Lets see another race get the spotlight for now. Everyone likes Gnomes, right? How about the Tauren? Lets see another race get some "love".

It's hard not to agree with point 4 given what we have seen. But hope is so hard to kill.

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Druids and The Temple of Elune have no real reason to have a "City".
For that same variety it seems to me that the best thing would be to have a Fortress and several loose camps.
Or in another way The whole forest is the city. The "City" is just the garrison.

Druids yes, not Priests, priests operate wherever the people are, whether it is in forests or cities or any type of terrain. You see temples of Elune in the middle of the Val'sharah forest with no city around it, you see it in the rolling plains of Azsuna near the beach, you also see it in the urban centres of Darnassus, Suramar, Meredil and Zin'Azshari.. - they are always in temples which in night elf tradition are often their most exquisite and beautiful buildings and the crown of most of their cities that some fans seem to love to think the night elves have nothing to do with .. even though they are shown and told these are NIGHT ELF cities.

Why would they ONLY have a fortress with loose camps? Are military and druids the only night elves around now? Is the long vigil guarding against the legion still the only purpose of the race, even now? Aren't they out of isolation, need diplomatic ties and can now live for other reasons than fighting the legion? Like actually living their lives again for the first time in 10,000 years...??? What makes you think all of them would be druids? or military or even priests? What about those who are crafters, traders, and have other interests? Are they a mono culture? With only one thing? What about those who study the arcane - just because the Highborne were few at first, doesn't mean the talent for arcane is limited to them? They recruit new night elves with the talent all the time.. what about schools and academies for crafters , mages and traders? Scholars, poets, musicians, artists? Before when these things weren't necessary because they were on the long vigil there was no need seeing they had a mission and every night elf stopped the thigns they originally did to foucs on accomplishing those tasks. But now there is. Did not blizzard say they came out of isolation and the Long Vigil ended? Do you think all are military and druids only? That's not what the lore nor game show us.

No, to be a functioning society in the context they find themselves, a fortress won't do. A fortress is acceptable for the military wardens, the sentinels and the Moonguard, this is why the night elves have structures of these - did you not see the Warden vault, the Black Rook hold and the Moonguard stronghold...? Were these the night elf city? No, they are in addition to a night elf city. this is why they are a fully funcitoing race, nad not some one off group.

In order to be a fortress, you will ask the priests do abandon their temple (which is against their sacred duty) , mages to forgo their universities, academies, and civiliation focus, also ask the race to have little to no diplomatic involvement with other nations (impossible seeing they are in an alliance) and to be entirely militaristically based on a reason that no longer exists or event a new reason just to reduce them to living in a fortress. Or do you think all night elves want to continue being a military entity? You think the ones who restarted their lives from 10,000 years ago in Darnassus or fled Eldre'thalas would want to continue or return to militaristic future now they've paid their dues? As if no night elf would have ohter ambitions, aspirations, goals or desires outside fighting or being a druid in the forest.

Why is it suddenly okay for druids to dwell in the forests, but not for priests to dwell in a temple or others to dwell in a city? But it must be a military fortress? I don't think that is suitable for them, I think it's terrible .. going from the likes of Zin'Azshari, or Suramar or even Darnassus, to a fortress? You not satisfied with the nerfs to night elves that you want more? While the horde group of NElves (the Nightborne) a much smaller community that is far less diverse, is sitting comfy in a city - but the broader larger encompassing group, the Kaldorei, and the original elf group must only have a fortress + forest? Why can't they have forest, temple, fortress and city? they have the community for all these things and there is a need. Are they never to grow and develop? Are they to only be associated with the forest because that was most of WC3 even though even then it was made clear that was just a part of the identity? Isn't the forest only supposed to be part of the identity.. ? So forest and military only you say? sorry, I have to strongly disagree on that one.

Night elves are obviously meant to have a civilization and a future to have one, otherwise they would not have given them a past that was so culturally vibrant and diverse, nor would they have had them return to a non-isolated state with budding growth in their civilization. No, they wouldn't have made the long vigil an event assignment but rather a permanent status thing, nor would they have made the night elves move from it. They would have kept them all in Hyjal /Ashenvale.. but did they? no, they kept some of them there, not all, because they are meant to be more. When you design those things you don't just go ah well I'll put one here , there.. no! They plan these things, they think about it based on what they want for a race. the night elves clearly have a structure and a range they cater for in all they show. Trust me if they were meant to be pure forest or pure militaristic, they would have stayed that way, and had different reasons for remaining that way. Blizzard have Furbolgs, Dryads, even worgen (night elf ones) for races that are pure forest, they also have races that are purely militaristic, night elves are obviously meant to be bigger than just one thing, a full race (even faction level). This is why they have all the components they have, it is intentionally done so by design. Therefore it makes no sense to only have a fortress and forested land.

Are all their zones forested? no! [Darkshore, Stonetalon, Desolace, Azsuna, Suramar - are night elf zones that aren't particularly forested] if night elves were only meant to be forested, they'd be forest people only leaving in forests like the Dryads and keepers and the night Fae are]

It makes more sense that you destroy Ogrimas and that the Kaldorei don't have a new city to do that.
By the way, the Void Elves are not a meaningful race. It is the only race whose objective as a race is to "destroy / enslave" another race. They will never make it.

Maybe, but things done purely in the existing narrative direction, if you haven't noticed, often completely change expansion to expansion right? if they had been following narrative direction alone from the start, Silvermoon would never have gone horde.

So there are other non-narrative reasons certain things don't happen and certain things do. like Orgrimmar not being destroyed is because it's the horde hub - neither Theramore nor Darnassus was spared that fate. Like wise Silvermoon and Suramar returning to the alliance would have its motivation outside the narrative and then the narrative changed to make it happen. In this case, the reason for my point 1 suggestion would be to bolster the alliance elf involvement considerable in an attempt to make the alliance attractive again and minimise the elf horde involvement in an attempt to make the horde less alliancey by removing said alliance factors like large (very alliance minded/cultured and setting) blood elves and Nightborne. That would be the motivation in addition to giving the void elves and Night elves new homes without building new cities for them.

Non-narrative motivations for changes can be good or at least acceptable. How do you think the blood elves got into the horde in the first place, and the Nightborne too.. it was not the direction of the narrative, you should be able to see that..

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you are totally sick with envy.

Suramar is home to the Nightborne and Quelthalas of the Horde Thalassians.

the alliance has its own territories.

It's like I want Stormwind because it was once the capital of the horde.

It's ridiculous, each faction has its own cities and territories and quelthalas and suramar are from the horde, accept it at once.

you don't like the suggestion of losing the alliance stuff you given to the horde were you. I mean you switched factions when the high elves went over as blood elves didn't you, and you've only stayed there for those same elves that are very alliance to begin with... therefore when entirely reasonable solutions and options for change to address other issues are presented, you balk at them, calling them "completely ridiculous" or misjudging the author as being "totally sick with envy".. you really can't see beyond that , because you are too immersed and emotionally involved.

Territories, change, alliance loses territories and races are apparently too, or do you forget how the horde gets a high elf group and a night elf sub race? is it suddenly preposterous when the change happens in the other direction? ofc it isn't, but it seems so to you because of the above mentioned reasons.

when Silvermoon or Suramar become the capital of the horde you can make comparisons to Stormwind.. until then, if Darnassus can burn, and Silvermoon switch factions, once already, any and all of that is possible for Silvermoon and Suramar. Don't criticise me for presenting it as one of several options just because you don't like the sound or can't imagine it of it doesn't mean it isn't viable - it's happened before, I'm not suggesting something that hasn't happened before.

[Shadowtwili]

I actually really dig that idea. Sulfuron Spire could easily be converted into a city with all the dope Highborne architecture from Legion. It might even make the Nightborne jealous, even if it still wouldn't ever be as awesome as Suramar. If this were to happen though, the Undead should get some new city right outside of Gilneas. Unless of course we could re-do Darkshore the right way and give it to the Undead. It would be perfect, and was a such a wasted opportunity.

Hence why I suggested Alterac City for the Forsaken. We know from BfA that the Forsaken had alot of refugees fleeing to Alterac City, trying to rebuild it and Blizzard could even add a new "undercity" underneath it.

Why Alterac City you ask? Because Hillsbrad and WPL are the only "pure" Forsaken settlements/areas in Lordaeron nowadays, if they settle Alterac City, they can easily reach Andorhal and the rest of the Hillsbrad Foothills and protect it.

Also, because Alterac is basicly a blank slate, they could easily replace those structures and the way it is build (like Stromgarde) and use the Forsaken architecture seen in both BfA and Cataclysm.

[Tanaria]

Maybe, but things done purely in the existing narrative direction, if you haven't noticed, often completely change expansion to expansion right? if they had been following narrative direction alone from the start, Silvermoon would never have gone horde.

So there are other non-narrative reasons certain things don't happen and certain things do. like Orgrimmar not being destroyed is because it's the horde hub - neither Theramore nor Darnassus was spared that fate. Like wise Silvermoon and Suramar returning to the alliance would have its motivation outside the narrative and then the narrative changed to make it happen. In this case, the reason for my point 1 suggestion would be to bolster the alliance elf involvement considerable in an attempt to make the alliance attractive again and minimise the elf horde involvement in an attempt to make the horde less alliancey by removing said alliance factors like large (very alliance minded/cultured and setting) blood elves and Nightborne. That would be the motivation in addition to giving the void elves and Night elves new homes without building new cities for them.

Non-narrative motivations for changes can be good or at least acceptable. How do you think the blood elves got into the horde in the first place, and the Nightborne too.. it was not the direction of the narrative, you should be able to see that..

Suramar was never Alliance anyway.

Blood Elves are a fully fledged Horde race who joined the Orcs, Trolls and Tauren against Sylvanas and the war she wanted.

Silvermoon must be updated for Horde players first...before Alliance can even think of having it because Blood Elf fans have always been consistent in what we want. We don't want Outland hell holes or something crap like Azshara or Bloodmyst Isle...we want an updated Quel'Thalas. With that includes an updated Ghostlands, updated Eversong and updated Quel'Danas.

In an ironic twist, the Blood Elven leader is essentially leading the Horde and he carries the very same views on how the Horde should be, which is similar to the Orcs, Trolls and Tauren, you like to harp on about, which is very different from Garrosh or Sylvanas.

I also think that you just want the Horde to be a very bland faction. It's the "bloodthirsty, crazy nutcase warrior" faction. Nothing more. We're well past those days now and it's time you came up to the present day, Horde.

[Shadowtwili]

While I agree that the Alliance shouldn't get Suramar or Quel'thalas, I do disagree that that Lor'themar carries the same views on the Horde as the orc and troll leaders.

Rokhan, Geya'rah and Talanji wanted to continue the war against the Alliance and are quite warmongering, while Lor'themar just wants a few good years of peace so the people of Quel'thalas can properly rebuild.

[Accendor]

It really has no humanity. No Horde Leader bothered him that they killed children.
He was concerned that they were going to lose the war.

I would love to be able to say that Lothamer has Honor that he is going to fix the Horde. But he is another "accomplice" that Blizzard broke his spine to write BFA and that he is going to need several expansions to heal from that wound.
Although it is really hard that I can achieve it in this story.

I mean I am not disagreeing with you ;-)

[Tanaria]

While I agree that the Alliance shouldn't get Suramar or Quel'thalas, I do disagree that that Lor'themar carries the same views on the Horde as the orc and troll leaders.

Rokhan, Geya'rah and Talanji wanted to continue the war against the Alliance and are quite warmongering, while Lor'themar just wants a few good years of peace so the people of Quel'thalas can properly rebuild.

The Orcs under Thrall and Saurfang as well as the Tauren carried the same views on ending the war as Lor'themar and Thalyssra did.

In the end, the Darkspear Tribe sided with Saurfang and the only ones opposed to it, remained loyal to Sylvanas, until the end.
Them being the Forsaken, Mag'har and Goblins with a few blood elves.

The Zandalari were only willing to continue the war to avenge Rastakhan...they were never truly #ProSylvanas
Especially after Sylvanas and Nathanos sought to kill Bwonsamdi.

The Vulpera weren't part of the Horde during Sylvanas' reign.

[ravenmoon]

I have no issue with other opinions. I will gladly provide my thoughts on your answers.

Please allow me to extend the courtesy in even greater detail. If you'd care to read. I hope you enjoy it and find it informative and refreshing.

I would say that Blizzard decided to focus their storytelling on certain characters, like Sylvanas, Anduin, Jaina or general expansion plots. Since cata, a development of racial stories is very rare outside of a scope of perspective expansion. Pandaren stories were told only because of Pandaria. Kul Tiran/Zandalari stories were told only because of BfA. It's the major difference between storytelling now, and storytelling of WoW classic - WotLK. I think cata was the dividing point in which we still got considerable amount of racial lore coupled with specific character driven stories.

I would say blizzard neglected them and didn't carry their story forward like most alliance races suffered in that era to boost the horde. might have been very different if they were developing all races or didn't feel the need to heavily favour the horde to increase it's popularity.

They clearly didn't intend the night elves to be a forest only race stuck in the long vigil, the long vigil was part of the opening story, and it was set to end.. it ends in the very story we see the night elves for the first time, and comes along with the knowledge and lore of the pre-sundering era too and statements in interviews with devs that the night elves were created to be the best of the dark elves and the forest elves combined. So it's clear we were only shown half of this race, and narrated the other half, to be built on progressively in teh future to realise the full vision. Except ofc development just stalled for alliance races after wow's release, and is the most likely reason we saw things move so slowly for them.

The focus on story telling did shift as you say, I agree here, and it progressively increased, it was small in TBc, more in WotLK, and by WoD we are following an intense narrative with legends like khadgar and Thrall at the centre of the storm. This continues onto today.

Yes, what I tried to be short in my description, but I imagine the druidic part to be only Statues of Wild Gods and populated trees/barrow dens. I don't think anything other is necessary. As you also mentioned, several druidic "outposts" outside of the city makes sence.

Ooh.. statues.. that's a nice touch, I hadn't thought of that.

Yes, and if Val'Sharah and the shrine of Aesinna on Hyjal and Ashenvale are anything to go buy, the statues are marble not wood - which makes sense, why would a druid want to use living wood to bend to a shape just for ornamentation. he'd rather the tree grow naturally and unchanged, only disturbing it as little as possible if he needed say a home for his family, which si why the tree homes in Val'Sharah show as little alteration as possible and probably rely on dead wood.

All those wood houses don't make sense, unless they are really ancient lodges and one offs, for people who then want to see an entire city of wood.. it's very much against the philosophy for night elven druidism. I would understand it if something large scale was done for another forest dwelling race that had druids, like night elf worgen allied race or developed furbolgs, but not NElves.. the druid wing would live in pure forests and under ground liek they are shown, and at most would do a small village of wood, nothing larger -- too wasteful. They would approve using marble and magic to extract that marble than living wood. And only dead marble btw. nt living stone.

where there influence would be is in gardens and fines packed into the marble like we read in wotA and see in the walls of the Darnassus buildings.. their contribution would be fertile green parks, beautiful flowers in cities.. not wooden buildings. And their main homes would be in the surrounding forests in barrow dens.

I disagree with that. First of all, not all night elves would ever be mages, druids or priestesses. There still will be a number of people who are civilians and lack any special training and powers. These people will be your craftsman and tradesman. Every city needs to have a place of trade in order to live. Civilians need to have a place where they can buy food, textiles, or anything other they need in everyday life. Now, I don't really believe that kaldorei would use magic on such things. They are still cautious in their use of magic and do not use it unresponsibly.

I phrased that wrong, i didn't mean there wouldn't be need for craftsmen and tradesmen, i meant no need for wooden rows of homes for craftsmen and tradesmen, there will absolutely be need for craftsmen and tradesmen, I made the exact same point incidentally to geco just a little earlier. When I was stressing that there would be more to night elves than druids and the military, and why a race like theirs would need a city and why they are given one in spite of the long vigil forested initial introduction, I must hasten to remind him is in the origin of the night elves, not just the point in the story we are introduced to them, and reasons being for the role they play against the legion rather than being an intentional starting point for them. Their starting point is in the pre-sundering era outlined in the Wc3 manual and expounded in the war of the ancients trilogy that was been written during the development of both Wc3 and Wow (proving it was there from the start, not a later development of misguided blizzard that some think when it comes to night elves and civilization or arcane magic).. I am mentioning this to readers to highlight that all these aspects of the night elves were planned. So they see the long vigil is not hte be all and main purpose of the night elves, but is part of a bigger vision and whole that was clearly shown by the developers. They just likely miss it because they are so focused on them being forest elves, especially a certain bunch of horde elf fans (not all of them) who have proven to us that they hate the idea of night elves having anything to do with high magic or civilization because they feel that is their identity - even though Warcraft is very clear no race is about one thing (but night elves should be only about forests in their eyes). I think the rivalry is the motivation for that thinking.

Take example in Suramar. Nightborne, the race who use magic for basically everything and infuse their very food with mana, still did not abandon trades and crafts. You have entire city district in Suramar dedicated to craftsmen. In some cases, you as a PC also had to seek some nightborne craftsmen during your profession questlines to further your training. There is no reason for kaldorei, who would still not like to use magic in such manner as Nightborne, to abandon crafts in favor of magic.

Absolutely, and not just crafts, there are other things, there is diplomacy, learning, life that was lived 10,000 years ago, but stopped because most of them were entirely focused on a vigil against the legion (that returned anyway eventually, 10k years later in WC3), then got totally defeated. Art, poetry, diplomacy, science, alchemy, and exploring magic in all these areas would all return.. a lot of these people would be drawn to urban centres.

They are part of an alliance too now (i.e. not isolated, needing diplomacy), living in a temple or in a forest is not for these night elves, and the race would need to accommodate for urban things too. All such things must return as they return to their original lives and it definitely includes cities. (that some of these fans think this can be skipped out is incredible - good thing the developers at least thought this one through)

See people make mistakes about the night elf mindset, they think their lives would be magic void or arcane void and as such civilization void because of the long vigil, but totally ignore the reason for the long vigil that give the context and explanation for that lifestyle and what it means. And they skip the details of presentation of the race, because I suppose they aren't nelf fans so don't have to think or care, so it's easy just to conclude "WC3 showed forests, these are what night elves are because blood elves can be the advanced elves instead.. that's why I picked blood elves and the horde - night elves = forest only elves" - and so get angry at the thought of night elves having anything of their past or that resembles or can compete with what they moved to thehorde to have with the blood elves..and thus we have our fan denial of night elves being anything but jungle elves in garb savagely ripping out throats and gutturally hooting with spears in their hands - something that is very different from every depiction of them blizzard provided.

But yes, forgive the poor phrasing I used, they would certainly have artisans, tradesman, craftsmen, whether these employ the aid of magic for their art or do not, whether that magic is nature or arcane or just magic or it isn't. We know the night elves are marked by incredible beauty in the things they made. This is told to us and shown us as a cultural and racial trait worked into the very origin of the races first works (no reason to think this is somehow gone or changed - the high elves get this characteristic from the night elves, they don't develop it on their own independently).. the long vigil didn't require a life outside the military, so during that Vigil, that is what was needed, along with all the minimalization, isolation etc. But now, civilization and living for themselves can now happen which means you would see a fusion of the long vigil and pre-sundering era in many ways (that aren't hard to hand pick), and because of the lessons they learned, they can now afford to be the best of both, which is EXACTLY what the developers said they intended for them when they set out to make them their own full race. you see the best of the dark elves in the urban developements and magical mastery , you see the best of the forest elves in the forest details and nature magic - this is it's not hard, the ideologies are the good things from both progress and development from the pre-sundering arcane side, harmony and balance from the druidic long vigil side, discipline and spirituality from the priesthood.

The reason why I also picture this part of the city mostly wooden is that these craftsmen (kaldorei civilians) probably lived in rural or forested areas for years and are used to this way of life. Moving them to marble and stone houses might not feel entirely right for them.

I quoted this part separately because I don't entirely agree with the last part of this paragraph. I think they lived in wood in Darnassus because of limited resources, not because they preferred wood house over marble.. Darnassus is built without arcane help because the an isn't lifted yet, and Highborne haven't returned.. so not even the former Highborne amongst them are using arcane magic, - this can be a lore reason, - i suppose practically (from a development view pint instead of lore) it made sense to have some of the houses wooden to express the fact they are living in a tree and partly druidic, as well as sconsiderig this is the first home city they've done in 10k years having only just emerged, so it's not going to be the level of the former cities yet.. that can come later when arcane magic is fully back to combine with nature). But making wooden buildings at least from the former point of view state above, was un-necessary, and actually counter to the druidic philosophy Blizzard promote about them, which is why I don't think wooden houses would survive in the city on a larger scale nor should they ..and as mentioned before, said wooden buildings are not necessary to reflect the race's nature love , and in fact are counter to it.

I also feel these artisans and crafters traders, like any person intelligent and great with their work would prefer nicer and better buildings to live in if it is possible, and being elves, in particular night elves would prefer the exquisite structures of before. This isn't against night elf culture at all, and it's fans who don't understand them that think it is . they think because the long vigil happened, night elves don't want magic nor cities, they misunderstand why the vigil happens and what night elves wanted and why the story provides they couldn't do certain things. They also don't really think through what exactly was hated and what was loved.. they just assume everything about the pre-sundering was hated (because it was "abandoned"), which makes zero sense by the narrative and not what the story indicates.

For starters, it is arcane abuse they abhor not arcane, it is arcane practice they banned not because practising is evil in itself but because during that period it brought back the legion. without either, ofc they'd want their beautiful cities back. The reason they hate the legion and endured to fulfil a vigil was because they lost something they loved. Their great life, their great civilization, and all the good things these people, described as benevolent, beautiful and highly intelligent were. If they didn't love their beautiful cities, civilisations and forests and temples, they wouldn't hate the legion for destroying them. No, their anger is at the legion and their hubirs, not their good achievements. They don't hate culture or civilisation or anything like that.. people who think so are not thinking thigs through.

They mistake occupational devotion for cultural identity or preference. A druid will always prefer the forests and the stark humbleness of self, to living in any village, town or city, so to assume a non druid would somehow prefer wood to marble because they hated the decadence of the pre-sundering era does not compute. The decadence they would hate is not the beauty of craft or good living, it is the wasteful scornful arrogance that abundance created in the behaviour of some - for example you excessively use power you don't need to (waste), revel in opulence at the expense of others, unproductive an healthy lifestyles choices brought on by your abundance - decadence is not great achievements in art, architecture, craft, study, technology, philosophy, etc)..that is not decadence. The repulsion would lie in the attitude and hubris, this is the decadent behaviour this produces. So people who think night elves won't build beautiful just don't understand.

To use that as some sort of reason why night elves would never build something beautiful again or live in beauty is rather silly and contradicts everything we are shown about them.. and is why I know the real intent behind such fans is because they don't want night elves having anything they think is really nice, presumably because they hate the alliance having sided with the horde and well you know, anything to dis your immediate rivals. so they hide under pretending "oh but night elves have to be "different" from blood elves, ignoring that they are anyway already ( as if the very fact that their nocturnal lifestyle, architectural urban style, magical focus in the arcane (e.g. star/moon arcane compared to fire /frost) aren't already different, not to mention when you add the Elune religion and reverence for the wild makes them different enough, whether city or forest. and they are fine with high elves (in the form of blood elves) having beautiful forests, but not night elves having beautiful cities - as an indication of "difference" it's all superficial, and not a genuine argument and they know it. These guys are on longer children, they should realise you can e very different with a bunch of less obvious things being different. it's not as if the devs are trying to hide it either.. the fact they don't see it tell s me they either don't want to or see it and are just lying to get their way.

It's clear blizzard doesn't feel so either, or they would never have done Suramar like that or Zin'Azshari, Darnassus too, nor put night elf architecture like that, nor written back in Highborne nor Nightborne (which weren't created to be horde these fans forget, they were only given it on fan request not because they are not night elven or werne't written as night elven lore) showing that blizzards intention for night elves is beyond just living in forest like primitive savages.

It's not only about love for nature. It's also about more humble way of life. Kaldorei abandoned decadence of the Highborne and decided to live more simple lives. As we've seen in Darnassus, they can easily build large buildings from marble, but they reserve it for important things for their culture, mostly to either structures dedicated to Elune or statues/shrines of Wild Gods. For other structures, they prefer more humble wooden structures.

Which as I stress before was not the intended goal but a consequence of the necessary change. they lived humbler lives not because all wanted this or preferred this but because the circumstance of their present (at the time) meant no arcane magic usage and a constant vigil - this means no time to use magic to rebuild anything, no need for urban or grand civilizations, trade, diplomacy, normal family life, its' all about working with dragons and wild gods to stop the legion from returning, constant patrols, watching and tasks .. they paused on their life so Azeroth would survive and others grow - this is their penance . the humble lifestyle is only a choice for druids, for other it was a sacrifice. And it's probably their most endearing quality.

This is also why they can easily move back to civilization when the vigil ends, and only stigma/prejudice opposed the arcane's return, not any logical reason (in fact we see most night elves were okay for the return and Wolfheart novel reveals Maieve was stirring up hatred out of her prejudice against arcane returning (reasons for her madness are expounded heavily in the novel Illidan), this was the main source of the prejudice recorded. Malfurion even states give his people a few years and they'd be totally accepting, because there is no logical reason any longer to keep the arcane ban or the Highborne ban only an emotional prejudiced one and one we find out a respected society leader (Maiev) was stirring up..

The decadence they will never return to is too often confused with beautiful craftsmanship and exquisite design. As I mentioned in the above paragraphs, there is a clear disgust for the decadent lifestyle of the past that was borne out of hubris and arrogance. Which are the character traits that led to such humiliation of their great race, and losing all the great things they accomplished and did. Naturally, the sane, good ones would abhor decadence, but to equate that with abhoring making beautiful thing is anti-night elven, it is out of character. Their druids are humble in attire because they love the beauty of nature..nature i s EXTRAVAGANT, these guys haven't given up on beauty at all. So if druids love beautiful things but only in nature, what makes anyone think that priests won't love beautiful temples in addition to the beauty of Elune? If they didn't why would they rebuild a beautiful temple? Why would craftsmen and tradesman not want to live in beautiful buildings or Highborne rebuild beautiful accommodation for themselves, or any city they build not be as beautiful as they can make it? with the skills and resources they have available???

Loving beauty and having it is not decadence, nor is having wealth and abundance of wealth. It is wasteful abuse and arrogant disregard of precious things like wealth or magic (which we know is sacred to night elves - yes not many people realise night elves view the arcane with a religious component of sacredness) it is abuse and disregard of the sacred or precious that is decadent - having plenty while your neighbour or associate has little and tehn showing it off insenstively. The way for example some Nightborne treated their lowborne is an example of this and the fact that some were exiled for that shows you that decadence wasn't universally accepted even in the pre-sundering endtimes even though it was a thing. Or maybe the night elves of Suramar improved those ways after the sundering. their arcane abuse is the drinking of the stuff moreso than anything else - this is where blizzard show their decadence - in their behaviour - see the ones at the nightwell in the Nighthold raid, just drunk on the arcane, holding parties when the legion are around, letting eveil of that magnitude endure while they just get high and revel - that is decadence.. not making your finest piece of art or architecture, or excelling at your studies and innovating new things and new developments - that is not decadence. Building a beautiful city isn't decadent, it is a cultural and racial attribute expressed in buildings just like tending a beautiful grove is it's equivalent in the nature practitioner.

Well, you said it yourself. Their city looked like that in the history. Night elves went through really rough times. They are now on the beginning of the new age. I just don't think they would throw away the way they lived last 10 thousand years all of sudden. Sure, times change, but it still needs some time. I also think even wooden structures are in fact really beautiful. New assets used in Val'sharah/Darkshore Warfront are stunning on their own, so I have no issue with this style, which is indeed distinctive to night elves. On the other hand, I don't think night elves should be restricted to that style only.

I agree on most of your ideas too, but I actually do not really share the old imperial vibe of kaldorei you have. It is a fascinating part of their history indeed, but that legacy is somewhat devided between all elf groups now.

I think sometimes people use the fact that is in past to mean it will never be again, when the evidence speaks otherwise, if it was only consigned to the past, why does Darnassus use the same architecture? because blizzard intends that to be night elf urban architecture. They then show the fully developed version when they show Suramar in game and then Zin'Azshari in Warbringers linked above. They are not saying this was night elves but no longer, they are saying this is night elven.

It is ofc different from rural architecture. what society uses great buildings in cities or temples for homes in a village of a handful? no one.. the style shifts ofc. So again, haters and naysayers insist only rural architecture is for the alliance night elves because muh druids and long vigil happened.. ignoring Darnassus, ignoring the reasons for said vigil, and why things would be different, ignoring the character of the people and just plain not paying attention to the details nor the evidence.

They have had rough times, but as an immortal, living in rough times even for 10,000 years because of a sacred duty, doesn't meant all of you love it. A druid loves living in nature entirely. And though you, a non-druid night elf may love nature very much, not being a druid doesn't mean that is only what you want and you all want only to live in a forest tree . You can love your beautiful designer building and the view of nature in your gardens, and the river and forest within your landscape view. You may love your beautiful city equally, and still love the nature outside it or within it's parks. bringing a piece of that nature to your gardens and homes,. To assume loving nature means hating architecture and cities for every night elf is illogical and not the evidence we are presented with either. But maybe that's why they want all night elves to be druids, so they can say this it he case. I'm fine with a third of the night elves being druids even half, it's un-necessary and boring to make the m all druids, and that's just not the race that was envisioned and written about or shown.

We are shown the style of the night elves for urban situations. I didn't make it up, they (Blizzard) wrote it for them. some people want that style to change to some tree top wooden city.. but not to offend them , it's clear that is not what the night elves of warcraft are about or how they do things. Not what the developers have shown for them for the last 21 years of released warcraft in games, books or comics.

That sort of thing can be exquisite too, but it would be for another race, like say night elf worgen who've been in the emerald dream and returned as a fully fledged culture, linked to the druidic side of kaldorei but like the packs they lived in, will clump together in larger accommodations made out of wood, reflecting they are no longer fully kaldorei and a purer nature forested version of them. Furbolgs would do similar. You can have a tree top city of wood for the night elf worgen allied race or the furbolg race, they've already established the designs for the night elves. And some of us like it and have no problem with it. It's people who don't either understand it or have an ulterior motive for it not to be that are dead set against it. Fortunately that's only a handful, a lot of other people just mention it would be interesting, they don't know night elf culture that well, but the discussion has the forest pushers bringing it up, so they can think along that line. that's fine. it's not a crime to think or suggest or desire. Even night elves can be changed.

I'm just pointing out to them that hey, blizzard has already shown us what is night elven, but the option for your tree top city, which is a nice idea, can be used for another race like Worgen (night elf ones), Furbogls, dryads, Night fae or any number of fully forested races (which the night elves aren't) so it doesn't necessarily have to be wasted. Night elves are a partially forested race or rather a race with forested elements that has had to live exclusively forested for a long time for reasons well known (and intended by design as part of their make up, but let's not forget their other things also part of their make up, like a priesthood, a civilization, the arcane, the demon hunters, Well of Eternity etc), one thing like forestry has never been and still isn't their full identity, as both their history and other groups show. and by other groups I mean the priesthood, the Highborne, the craftsmen the tradesmen and others.

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Suramar was never Alliance anyway.

it's like saying Highmountain was never really horde anyway. We all know by association, being a kaldorei city, very famous in kaldorei lore btw, and it's current inhabitants being a kaldorei sub-race, Alliance associations are made because the kaldorei are generally alliance.

You know this. so if an alliance race's city of origin like Suramar can go horde, and an alliance race like the High elves and their origin city can go horde too, don't pretend it can't go the other direction just because you don't want it to go.

And while I'm not saying that i can see the future and it will, it is certainly a legitimate option to have.

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In an ironic twist, the Blood Elven leader is essentially leading the Horde and he carries the very same views on how the Horde should be, which is similar to the Orcs, Trolls and Tauren, you like to harp on about, which is very different from Garrosh or Sylvanas.

I also think that you just want the Horde to be a very bland faction. It's the "bloodthirsty, crazy nutcase warrior" faction. Nothing more. We're well past those days now and it's time you came up to the present day, Horde.

Yay, the horde is essentially a red alliance now. I bet EVERYONE is over the moon.

[Tanaria]

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it's like saying Highmountain was never really horde anyway. We all know by association, being a kaldorei city, very famous in kaldorei lore btw, and it's current inhabitants being a kaldorei sub-race, Alliance associations are made because the kaldorei are generally alliance.

You know this. so if an alliance race's city of origin like Suramar can go horde, and an alliance race like the High elves and their origin city can go horde too, don't pretend it can't go the other direction just because you don't want it to go.

And while I'm not saying that i can see the future and it will, it is certainly a legitimate option to have.

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Yay, the horde is essentially a red alliance now. I bet EVERYONE is over the moon.

You don't like red Alliance...blame Baine Bloodhoof. He's the most Alliance loving guy in the Horde. Not Blood Elves or Nightborne...but you clearly like the red alliance, since you want the horde story to focus on the Tauren...

And Void Elves and High Elves can have many locations and grand places.
They can have Tempest Keep, Zin-Azshari, Terrokkar Forest, Duskwood...don't need to be in Quel'Thalas, since this place belongs to the Horde Blood Elves.

I tell you what...Quel'Thalas gets updated in the next expansion, you as an Alliance fan can have it 17 years after that update. You basically can wait the same length of time Blood Elf fans had to wait.

Suramar is still a neutral land in-game. It's not as though you can't go there...you just don't get the phased Nighthold section, which is all Horde players get. You aren't missing much, by Suramar being Horde,by lore standards.

[geco]

It would make me happy to see the Night Elves go back to their ancestral land, and that is Ashenvale. It wouldn't be a single city, since it doesn't really make sense for the Night Elves to live in large cities to begin with, so they would rebuild and repopulate Astranaar, Silverwind Refuge, fortify and build more settlements in Forest Song to block Horde's attacks. At the same time, there could be a nice settlement in Hyjal all around the world tree. I'd love it if they rebuilt Auberdine, made it a port/trade city, and that the captains of the ships arriving there told the adventurers that Auberdine is open for commerce, but adventuring further into Darkshore is off-limits to anyone who isn't Kaldorei.

That is why I say my idea of having a "Fortress" and several villages.

The Orcs under Thrall and Saurfang as well as the Tauren carried the same views on ending the war as Lor'themar and Thalyssra did.

In the end, the Darkspear Tribe sided with Saurfang and the only ones opposed to it, remained loyal to Sylvanas, until the end.
Them being the Forsaken, Mag'har and Goblins with a few blood elves.

The Zandalari were only willing to continue the war to avenge Rastakhan...they were never truly #ProSylvanas
Especially after Sylvanas and Nathanos sought to kill Bwonsamdi.

The Vulpera weren't part of the Horde during Sylvanas' reign.

They actually joined Baien's side. Which is rather the side of "I don't want Sylvana to hit me." No to Varock's side of "Killing civilians who surrendered is wrong"

Also keep in mind that there is War and War. Most of the Horde want a war with Honor. You know soldiers vs soldiers. But it bothers him little if he becomes soldiers vs. civilians. Or I hope that's the case for Talanji and friends. They want to kill Jaina.

Sylvanas and Varock wanted Soldiers v. Civilians.

[ravenmoon]

You don't like red Alliance...blame Baine Bloodhoof. He's the most Alliance loving guy in the Horde. Not Blood Elves or Nightborne...but you clearly like the red alliance, since you want the horde story to focus on the Tauren...

It's not that I don't like red alliance, i just think it's a bit pointless, it's much better when the horde and alliance were separate and distinct. In fact I feel it was even better when we had forsaken and Night elves as their own thing with their own themes.

The Ancients: Night elf Led: - deep forest (+ arcane, Elune, demon hunter) - but their signature is the original group of elves, deep in the forest, and also in magic - whether arcane or nature: from great cities to great forests, this is their hallmark. They are the ancient world and they have many wonders nature and arcane alike. Urban and rural alike.. It's a night world (mostly) until the Draenei join - but clearly the purple world ^^

The alliance Human Led: pretty much the WC2 coalition of humans, dwarves and high elves - your tolekin-esque main world the Alliance of WC2 is essentially modelled on with it's own flavour - the normal good guys. Whiles the high elves could have rejoined their ancient people, even with Highborne there, they don't like them and prefer to do their own things. they help the humans a lot, but are fairly independent. The dwarves are much tighter with the humans.

The Horde: Orc Led The monsters, tribal mis-understood group, hte minority on Azeroth so viewed as monsters by most, but actually the reason why some like the trolls are so against the alliance is because they've been violated and wronged, but culture is also different, orcs find hunting and fighting you an honourable thing, they are also recovering from demonic slavery. Fights between orcs and trolls aren't uncommon, but the Tauren are effective peace keepers that glue them together. No one likes goblins, but they are useful.

The Undead: Forsaken Led: They are marked by undeath: whether as shadow priest, sorcerers, etc they have all the elements of the alliance, but they are basically your zombie apocalypse faction. The Liches, necromancers, the dark undead stuff is all here, they are the most feared faction even if they're are not necessarily the most powerful individually.. they are very infectious with their necromantic magic, they've mostly been kept back in Northrend, but they do have footholds all over and they're very good at culting in alliance races and power seeking trolls to their cause.

The Illidari: DH Led: This is your anti hero group, marked by dangerous forbidden magic like fel and void, powerful group, but fringe outcasts of their people, they are found on remote locations hard places because of the quarry they hunt. Blood elves are part of this faction. these guys know power.. you do not want to fight htis faction.. you want to instead unleash them against the impossibly hard enemies like the legion or void or death.

This to me fits many of the current races much better than simply horde and alliance.

And Void Elves and High Elves can have many locations and grand places.
They can have Tempest Keep, Zin-Azshari, Terrokkar Forest, Duskwood...don't need to be in Quel'Thalas, since this place belongs to the Horde Blood Elves.

Zin'Azsahri is not for Thalassian elves, you realise that the race comes into existence over 3,00 years after Zin'Azsahri plummets into the depth, Zin'Azshari is both the birthplace and ancient centre of the kaldorei - i mean you realise this right. If you are going to choose great places for high elves and void elves, choose places that they are associated or built when they were actually alive. or around as Thalassians.

tempest keep? what do high elves or void elves have to do with tempest keep? Tempest keep is blood elf and draenei. But anything to avoid Silvermoon being suggested aye? You go to such lengths to dissociate High elves from their original home, and same with night elves it's comical.. your motivation is primarily because horde faction elves are sitting there, so this somehow means high elves have no right to Silvermoon and Night elves no right to Suramar.. you're kidding yourself and anyone foolish enough to agree with you.

I tell you what...Quel'Thalas gets updated in the next expansion, you as an Alliance fan can have it 17 years after that update. You basically can wait the same length of time Blood Elf fans had to wait.

Suramar is still a neutral land in-game. It's not as though you can't go there...you just don't get the phased Nighthold section, which is all Horde players get. You aren't missing much, by Suramar being Horde,by lore standards.

That makes no sense, if horde fans have waited 17 years for an updated Silvermoon, alliance high elf fans have waited 19 years for Silvermoon, this favours the alliance again.

No matter how you cut it, the alliance is the one for the elves on the horde.. this is what happens when you take an alliance race and just slap it on the horde without changing it. You can't expect to keep it's very alliance identity and expect it to feel horde :rolleyes - alliance will always have more in favour for them concerning those elves until blizzard change them from their high elven and night elven origin identities.

You should just accept the victory you have by having them on the horde, and don't try to make it seem like they are some rightful horde race designed cultivated exclusively for the horde.. pfft.. take the win you have. They're on the horde, and that is the only thing horde about them.

[draugril]

Hm. Given their association with the Well of Eternity and the dragons... it might be interesting to see them found a new home somewhere on the Dragon Isles.

[Rhlor]

With Suramar gone. My ideal would be Zin'Azshari restored under it's original name of Elundris. but i have no idea how they can and will make this happen. Because it requires the night elves becoming great again and something major happening in the world that is positive.

And we all know only major disasters and conflicts happen in Warcraft.. not major good things.. they really don't know how to balance calamity with fortune. it's always the world being destroyed or on the rink and barely able to save it. A cataclysm and a sundering happened, but nothing of comparable magnitude in the positive direction.

From a limited perspective I can only think maybe Suramar would be won or shared, or Azsuna rebuilt into a paradise, or Hyjal receive some update or Dire Maul completely reworked into something incredible looking. I can only imagine the limited, because they give no room to imagine positive things of large magnitude.

We can only imagine great evil or great calamity for Azeroth, but must have small visions for good things.

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It's hard not to agree with point 4 given what we have seen. But hope is so hard to kill.

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Druids yes, not Priests, priests operate wherever the people are, whether it is in forests or cities or any type of terrain. You see temples of Elune in the middle of the Val'sharah forest with no city around it, you see it in the rolling plains of Azsuna near the beach, you also see it in the urban centres of Darnassus, Suramar, Meredil and Zin'Azshari.. - they are always in temples which in night elf tradition are often their most exquisite and beautiful buildings and the crown of most of their cities that some fans seem to love to think the night elves have nothing to do with .. even though they are shown and told these are NIGHT ELF cities.

Why would they ONLY have a fortress with loose camps? Are military and druids the only night elves around now? Is the long vigil guarding against the legion still the only purpose of the race, even now? Aren't they out of isolation, need diplomatic ties and can now live for other reasons than fighting the legion? Like actually living their lives again for the first time in 10,000 years...??? What makes you think all of them would be druids? or military or even priests? What about those who are crafters, traders, and have other interests? Are they a mono culture? With only one thing? What about those who study the arcane - just because the Highborne were few at first, doesn't mean the talent for arcane is limited to them? They recruit new night elves with the talent all the time.. what about schools and academies for crafters , mages and traders? Scholars, poets, musicians, artists? Before when these things weren't necessary because they were on the long vigil there was no need seeing they had a mission and every night elf stopped the thigns they originally did to foucs on accomplishing those tasks. But now there is. Did not blizzard say they came out of isolation and the Long Vigil ended? Do you think all are military and druids only? That's not what the lore nor game show us.

No, to be a functioning society in the context they find themselves, a fortress won't do. A fortress is acceptable for the military wardens, the sentinels and the Moonguard, this is why the night elves have structures of these - did you not see the Warden vault, the Black Rook hold and the Moonguard stronghold...? Were these the night elf city? No, they are in addition to a night elf city. this is why they are a fully funcitoing race, nad not some one off group.

In order to be a fortress, you will ask the priests do abandon their temple (which is against their sacred duty) , mages to forgo their universities, academies, and civiliation focus, also ask the race to have little to no diplomatic involvement with other nations (impossible seeing they are in an alliance) and to be entirely militaristically based on a reason that no longer exists or event a new reason just to reduce them to living in a fortress. Or do you think all night elves want to continue being a military entity? You think the ones who restarted their lives from 10,000 years ago in Darnassus or fled Eldre'thalas would want to continue or return to militaristic future now they've paid their dues? As if no night elf would have ohter ambitions, aspirations, goals or desires outside fighting or being a druid in the forest.

Why is it suddenly okay for druids to dwell in the forests, but not for priests to dwell in a temple or others to dwell in a city? But it must be a military fortress? I don't think that is suitable for them, I think it's terrible .. going from the likes of Zin'Azshari, or Suramar or even Darnassus, to a fortress? You not satisfied with the nerfs to night elves that you want more? While the horde group of NElves (the Nightborne) a much smaller community that is far less diverse, is sitting comfy in a city - but the broader larger encompassing group, the Kaldorei, and the original elf group must only have a fortress + forest? Why can't they have forest, temple, fortress and city? they have the community for all these things and there is a need. Are they never to grow and develop? Are they to only be associated with the forest because that was most of WC3 even though even then it was made clear that was just a part of the identity? Isn't the forest only supposed to be part of the identity.. ? So forest and military only you say? sorry, I have to strongly disagree on that one.

Night elves are obviously meant to have a civilization and a future to have one, otherwise they would not have given them a past that was so culturally vibrant and diverse, nor would they have had them return to a non-isolated state with budding growth in their civilization. No, they wouldn't have made the long vigil an event assignment but rather a permanent status thing, nor would they have made the night elves move from it. They would have kept them all in Hyjal /Ashenvale.. but did they? no, they kept some of them there, not all, because they are meant to be more. When you design those things you don't just go ah well I'll put one here , there.. no! They plan these things, they think about it based on what they want for a race. the night elves clearly have a structure and a range they cater for in all they show. Trust me if they were meant to be pure forest or pure militaristic, they would have stayed that way, and had different reasons for remaining that way. Blizzard have Furbolgs, Dryads, even worgen (night elf ones) for races that are pure forest, they also have races that are purely militaristic, night elves are obviously meant to be bigger than just one thing, a full race (even faction level). This is why they have all the components they have, it is intentionally done so by design. Therefore it makes no sense to only have a fortress and forested land.

Are all their zones forested? no! [Darkshore, Stonetalon, Desolace, Azsuna, Suramar - are night elf zones that aren't particularly forested] if night elves were only meant to be forested, they'd be forest people only leaving in forests like the Dryads and keepers and the night Fae are]


Maybe, but things done purely in the existing narrative direction, if you haven't noticed, often completely change expansion to expansion right? if they had been following narrative direction alone from the start, Silvermoon would never have gone horde.

So there are other non-narrative reasons certain things don't happen and certain things do. like Orgrimmar not being destroyed is because it's the horde hub - neither Theramore nor Darnassus was spared that fate. Like wise Silvermoon and Suramar returning to the alliance would have its motivation outside the narrative and then the narrative changed to make it happen. In this case, the reason for my point 1 suggestion would be to bolster the alliance elf involvement considerable in an attempt to make the alliance attractive again and minimise the elf horde involvement in an attempt to make the horde less alliancey by removing said alliance factors like large (very alliance minded/cultured and setting) blood elves and Nightborne. That would be the motivation in addition to giving the void elves and Night elves new homes without building new cities for them.

Non-narrative motivations for changes can be good or at least acceptable. How do you think the blood elves got into the horde in the first place, and the Nightborne too.. it was not the direction of the narrative, you should be able to see that..

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you don't like the suggestion of losing the alliance stuff you given to the horde were you. I mean you switched factions when the high elves went over as blood elves didn't you, and you've only stayed there for those same elves that are very alliance to begin with... therefore when entirely reasonable solutions and options for change to address other issues are presented, you balk at them, calling them "completely ridiculous" or misjudging the author as being "totally sick with envy".. you really can't see beyond that , because you are too immersed and emotionally involved.

Territories, change, alliance loses territories and races are apparently too, or do you forget how the horde gets a high elf group and a night elf sub race? is it suddenly preposterous when the change happens in the other direction? ofc it isn't, but it seems so to you because of the above mentioned reasons.

when Silvermoon or Suramar become the capital of the horde you can make comparisons to Stormwind.. until then, if Darnassus can burn, and Silvermoon switch factions, once already, any and all of that is possible for Silvermoon and Suramar. Don't criticise me for presenting it as one of several options just because you don't like the sound or can't imagine it of it doesn't mean it isn't viable - it's happened before, I'm not suggesting something that hasn't happened before.

darnassus and lordaron was destroyed. but in the end the forsaken returned home and the night elves won the war front. forsaken and night elves although they lost their capitals not because they were occupied by the opposing faction but because they were destroyed they still retain their territories

the blood elves ceased to be part of the alliance when they were sentenced to death and joined the horde because the night elves attacked them.
silvermoon was rebuilt by the magister that the alliance condemned to death mainly by rommath the grand magister of quelthalas!
the nightborne were never ever part of the alliance! nor were they ever part of the Darnassian government! the government of suramar rebelled against azshara and since then suramar is an independent state.

Quelthalas is a sovereign state with a government that rebuilt the kingdom and suramar has been an independent nation for 10,000 years.

the darnassian have their own territory and the void elves chose to learn dark magic from darkhan and now live in telogrus

[Shadowtwili]

Seriously tho.

Are we all just assuming the Darnassian night elves regained Ashenvale after the war too? Because as far as I know it was taken by the Horde during the War of Thorns, then Darkshore was lost, reclaimed, but no word on Ashenvale itself.

[Tanaria]

Snip

Right - the red Alliance is pointless, say hello to the Bloodhoof and Highmountain Tauren, since they do anything and everything for the Alliance. I'll tell you, Baine and Mayla are your Alliance centric Horde characters. Don't sit there and try and make out they are this integral part of the core Horde when they spend more time pleasing Humans and the Alliance. The look of the Blood Elves and Silvermoon is the last problem for the "red alliance." I don't agree with a lot of Sylvanas-fans, but they are right about Baine. He is an Alliance supporting character...and you want more Tauren development, but again - blame Blood Elf fans for the red Alliance?

Void Elves can have ALOT to do with either Tempest Keep or Zin-Azshari due to both being heavily steeped in the Void and the Arcane. Blood Elves have no use for Tempest Keep, since they've got Silvermoon.

High Elves haven't lived in Silvermoon for years...probably used to it...Stormwind and Dalaran are their occupations and preferences.

And it makes perfect sense, since Blood Elves have been Horde throughout WoW's life. Blood Elf fans take precedence in who gets Silvermoon and it's Blood Elf fans who have wanted a Quel'Thalas update.

Again, this is just you wanting something, but it's not on the faction you prefer.
Which is why you don't really seem to understand the Horde and still view it as a very bland faction, with only little things you deem as "cool." Basically, stereotyping what you think the Horde should look like, when times have changed.

Blood Elves and Nightborne are not desert walkers who have nothing nice, aside from ruins.

Go and take your crappy Hellfire, Desolace, Azshara and Bloodmyst and shove it down the maelstrom.

[geco]

Seriously tho.

Are we all just assuming the Darnassian night elves regained Ashenvale after the war too? Because as far as I know it was taken by the Horde during the War of Thorns, then Darkshore was lost, reclaimed, but no word on Ashenvale itself.

We are assuming that on some twitter they will say that they recovered it or that as in BFA. They tell us that they only recovered it in a paragraph in a book.

It is safer in the next book that comes out "explore Kalimndor" explore everything except the Kaldorei and say something like "and there are elves" and keep going.

[Alanar]

The opening and reason for this thread is to talk AGAIN about ravenmoon being jelly nightborne went the other way.

And ofc him wanting Suramar essentially. Not saying directly, but we all know he want it.

/thread.

Told you so.. couple pages and we are again talking about the same thing.

The guy doesnt learn from past threads and he keeps coming back every once in the month or so.. its cringe.

[AcidicSyn]

I kinda like the idea of a constantly moving caravan if Blizz can program it. It could encourage open world exploration. However I do want to point out that no nomadic society is 100% nomadic in real life. The Quarian migrant fleet gets a pass because they can grow crops on the ships so they have the luxury of a sedentary lifestyle while on the move. But every real nomadic society had permanent settlements they used when the climate did not support nomadism.

If they really want to add a lot of content for the Vulpera they can do a seasonal event in which they occupy the Vulpera capital and provide services there. But if this much is provided for them, all other races will nead something extra.

I think you mean semi-permanent. Those societies would leave those "bases" for lack of a better word when those seasons ended when they'd return to following the herds around. But I'm nitpicking.

I'd love to see a vulperra caravan traveling around Kalimdor though, even if it was just like a darkmoon faire style (where we don't actually see them physically traveling around the zones but just see them camped in different zones each week), though I'd definitely prefer to see them traveling real time.

[Tanaria]

Told you so.. couple pages and we are again talking about the same thing.

The guy doesnt learn from past threads and he keeps coming back every once in the month or so.. its cringe.

I know, but it seems to me that he keeps trying to offer a new place where Blood Elves can go.

Recently, it's Hellfire peninsula.

"Build a big blood elf City" whilst also saying that Blood elves should be minor in terms of development. So, put Blood Elves in a forgettable zone and try to forget they exist...that's the vibe I got.