View Poll Results: Should Dungeon-Finder be Implemented?

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  • Yes, Dungeon Finder should be implemented as expected

    89 60.54%
  • No, it's one of the changes I'm open to.

    47 31.97%
  • Other (Reply)

    11 7.48%
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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Dungeon finder, for all the flak it got back in the day, was great especially for low populated servers. I don't exactly remember if it was specific to your realm only or if that was the first incarnation off cross-realm content.
    It was always Xrealm.

    And it was a godsend back then, due to work my common play time was around 3 am, it was hard to find groups before it.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Doesn't make or break WotLK. But as it was a feature back then, it should be in, the question is if it should be in from the start or not.
    THIS is a good question.

    Wrath didn't have LFD at the start. So the question of if it should be in right away, since the game TECHNICALLY starts at the final patch, is up in the air.

    TBC Classic already proved they're willing to make changes to ensure the game mimics it's original form re: Drums. But Vanilla Classic was all about giving people the "proper" Vanilla, which meant giving people the final patch as that had "all the intended changes." Their intents are clashing, though TBC Classic is more recent so we can presume they might consider keeping LFD out at the start.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  3. #23
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skorpionss View Post
    Include it but make it realm specific instead of battlegroup specific.
    Realm specific is how it was early in its implementation, and keeping it that way sounds like a good compromise if they implement it. I'd also argue perhaps removing the teleport at first and run it how it was in early iterations--same server only, and it only serves to assemble the group with the players still needing to get there. Iterate from there as necessary based on how things shake out in Classic.

    For OP's question: I can go either way, like many other things about Classic. For me the fun is in the core gameplay loop, and I've gone out of my way to avoid doing dungeon boosts or buying the level boost because I feel like those run afoul of the reason why I personally play the game. The core gameplay in WotLK is fun whether or not I put my group together by spamming in Trade or by doing so through an automated group finding tool.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  4. #24
    Was gonna come in here with a big HELL NO but people suggesting it be realm specific.. Hell yes.

  5. #25
    should be in, but i wont be play either way.
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    I don't think LFD is the only solution. Retails LFG is really well made, and could be a great way to allow for good, consistent looking-for-group functionality without automating it.
    I didn't say it was the only solution. I said it was the solution that fixes it all - It removes the "2 hour spamming in queue" that people complained about by removing the spamming, it removes the struggle to find a dungeon group by guaranteeing you one eventually, it removes the low population realm problem by making you capable of grouping with other realms...

    I'm not saying it's the ONLY solution, but given the problems they had to solve at the time, it's pretty obvious why it was implemented as it was.

    My only real problem with it is the cross-realm nature of it, personally. I think realm community is probably the best part of classic, its one of the biggest reasons I play it. It would be a real shame for that to go away.
    I don't get this argument.

    The Classic "community" isn't based around doing dungeons. What prevents you from having a community with LFD?
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    No.

    People love Wrath because of the ease of access of dungeons and gear. Many may view it as "the beginning of the end," but as Classic shows, if people don't have access to it, they just turn to boosting to get themselves through because finding a dungeon is a pain in the ass without it.

    And as TBC Classic is currently proving, the LFG channel just isn't enough. If you're ahead of the curve maybe you can make it work, but the spam currently in BC Classic makes it near impossible to get a group for anything other than max level content. If you're like me and had an unfortunate bout of sickness preventing you from playing for the first week, you get left behind.

    LFD is literally the solution which fixes all of this. And considering the lack of community in Classic and Classic TBC, it's not like we're losing anything by having it.

    That said: I'd be all for realm-specific LFD. The cross-realm aspect of it was always to cater to the queue. IF it ends up needing the cross realm aspect later, they can always add it later - But make it realm-specific first since that's what people want, and change it if necessary later.
    There's definitely not a lack of community in Classic. I know the names of basically everybody on my server. LFD completely changed that aspect. Wrath was the last time I cared to know the names of anybody on my server. After that, it just became the names of guilds, and even that died when server transfers became virtually unrestricted. Original implementation on server/faction changes there was like a 1 or 2 month cooldown per character after you used it.

    I don't even want it to be implemented at all. Not even limited to server specific queues. The biggest killer of the social aspect of this system was the fact that you no longer needed any kind of courtesy or any need for skill in the slightest to get into groups for dungeons. You're only giving the thumbs up for assholes to be assholes without suffering any of the already very limited repercussions that you have now.

  8. #28
    LFD kills the social aspect of the game. Why bother socializing when I can have a machine do it for me? And god forbid I say anything or do anything outside of the exact role that the group expects of me, otherwise I'm instantly vote kicked and someone else comes in instantly because players are dime a dozen.

    Firm no for me. Keep it "manual" style. Make friends. Run stuff together. Then you dont need to rely on a robot to put groups together for you, because you'll always have a group.

    Also LFD makes the world smaller. It removes a part of traveling that makes the world seem bigger. Yes summon stones exist but LFD completely removes the need for ANYONE to go to the dungeon.

    Firm no. Don't want it. And don't tell me to not use it if it's not implemented, because I'll be forced to use it.

    Now... If it's something to help ORGANIZE a group (like looking for a group for M+, it's still a manual process) and keep it self realm only, I could get behind that. But no, I don't want automatic "matchmaking" and I don't want cross realm.
    Last edited by Ssateneth; 2021-06-13 at 03:49 AM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ermelloth View Post
    LFD is ok, if it would be realm specific.

    Crossrealm = end of story. Once people stop caring about consequences of their actions, knowing they are unlikely to meet these players ever again, it will be the end of Classic.
    ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, LFD was the beginning of the end for so much of the community because of the cross realm anonymity that came with the convenience and the elimination of organic reputation building on the realm community.

  10. #30
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    I don't get this argument.

    The Classic "community" isn't based around doing dungeons. What prevents you from having a community with LFD?
    A huge part of the appeal is the realm community, it's very different from retail. There are a few things that happen when you don't have cross-realm dungeoning/raiding/questing:

    1. You can acquire a reputation. Are you a competent pug leader? People will know your name, you have a place in the community. Are you a ninja looter? There are consequences, and the competent pug leaders wont want to group with you, nor will most guilds.

    2. It adds a certain permanency to every encounter. You see people questing, you'll probably see them again later, people you encounter in the world and in dungeons you will have a chance of already having a rapport with.

    If you expand that pool it will be easier to find dungeons, but the connections you make become much more arbitrary. I don't remember the last time I made a friend in LFD in retail, but after a dungeon in classic, if someone is competent, their name sticks with me, because I'll see them around later.

    It creates a world, it's like having a small town vs. living in a Metropolis. As someone who has lived in both, the Metropolis is a lot more lonely, it makes you feel small because nobody matters, everyone becomes much more replaceable.

    Nobody has trouble finding M+ groups on retail, the LFG tool works really well there, aside from the spam listings. It is a great solution to the /4 spam, and it keeps things tight and personal. Having LFD be realm-locked/linked-realm locked would also work pretty well for this to keep LFD in.

    The loss of realm community is the loss of the soul of the game, it diminishes the meaning in a way for a lot of people. It hurts the escape and sacrifices the human connection for faster/more rapid gameplay.
    Last edited by The-Shan; 2021-06-13 at 04:35 AM.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Because that's when Mythic+ and all it's elitism really entered the fray.
    To claim that M+ ended the social nature of WoW is absurd. M+ has considerably more social potential than auto-queue systems.

    To claim that M+ brought about a new era of exclusion is to forget all the link achievements, gearscore, ilvl, inspections at bank that had been in the game long before we ever had M+.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Dungeon finder, for all the flak it got back in the day, was great especially for low populated servers. I don't exactly remember if it was specific to your realm only or if that was the first incarnation off cross-realm content.
    it was cross realm within your realms 'battlegroup' which died out long ago for pve content, it still exists under the hood for pvp services i believe but yeah, back when there was actually too many servers and they needed a way of grouping them all up so that overall populations were balanced out.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    A huge part of the appeal is the realm community, it's very different from retail. There are a few things that happen when you don't have cross-realm dungeoning/raiding/questing:

    1. You can acquire a reputation. Are you a competent pug leader? People will know your name, you have a place in the community. Are you a ninja looter? There are consequences, and the competent pug leaders wont want to group with you, nor will most guilds.
    This is done in raids, not dungeons. You can certainly blacklist a dude for ninjaing in a dungeon, but nobody is going to care that you did it, and it's certainly not hurting that person's reputation for you to blacklist them.

    Go ahead. Try to call someone out for ninjaing in TBC Classic. See what happens.

    2. It adds a certain permanency to every encounter. You see people questing, you'll probably see them again later, people you encounter in the world and in dungeons you will have a chance of already having a rapport with.
    You notice what you haven't mentioned in this reply?

    Doing dungeons. All of this can still be done with LFD, because you'll be doing it OUTSIDE the dungeons. I don't know anybody on Classic I ran 5 mans with, with the exception of VERY exceptional players - And I'll know them if they're on my server or not.

    If you expand that pool it will be easier to find dungeons, but the connections you make become much more arbitrary. I don't remember the last time I made a friend in LFD in retail, but after a dungeon in classic, if someone is competent, their name sticks with me, because I'll see them around later.
    This is on you. You are more than capable of adding someone via Battle.net and continuing to play with them, and thus forming a community that way, in retail.

    It creates a world, it's like having a small town vs. living in a Metropolis. As someone who has lived in both, the Metropolis is a lot more lonely, it makes you feel small because nobody matters, everyone becomes much more replaceable.
    Except that the living metropolis only exists in the one spot that all the high level people congregate in, and the rest of the world is empty. See: Vanilla areas in TBC Classic. See: Outland areas once everyone hits 70 in TBC Classic. See: Classic before the surge of levelers for TBC Classic.

    You've always been replaceable. Welcome to the real world, where 30 other people are always waiting to take your spot and leave you behind. TBC Classic isn't making you irreplacable.

    The loss of realm community is the loss of the soul of the game, it diminishes the meaning in a way for a lot of people. It hurts the escape and sacrifices the human connection for faster/more rapid gameplay.
    The loss of realm community is the gain of the entire rest of the game. You could easily have a community off server, you choose not to.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-06-13 at 05:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
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  14. #34
    If it comes, I'll stop playing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
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  15. #35
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This is done in raids, not dungeons. You can certainly blacklist a dude for ninjaing in a dungeon, but nobody is going to care that you did it, and it's certainly not hurting that person's reputation for you to blacklist them.

    Go ahead. Try to call someone out for ninjaing in TBC Classic. See what happens.
    It is done in dungeons too. I meet tons of people in dungeons, and if someone leaves after they get their quest credit, people on my server (Grobbulus, a high pop server) seem to care. I often seem people spamming LFG get called out as being toxic, people warning of their behavior. There are consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    You notice what you haven't mentioned in this reply?

    Doing dungeons. All of this can still be done with LFD, because you'll be doing it OUTSIDE the dungeons. I don't know anybody on Classic I ran 5 mans with, with the exception of VERY exceptional players - And I'll know them if they're on my server or not.
    I build rapport with people in dungeons all the time. I build out my friends list with the people I play with, and it gives me a pool of people I know outside of my guild who I can call upon if I need a tank, a healer, or a reliable DPS. You develop a reputation by being good at the game, or even just being positive, or a good leader, or a problem solver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    This is on you. You are more than capable of adding someone via Battle.net and continuing to play with them, and thus forming a community that way, in retail.
    It's not on me, it's general psychology, and psychology has to be taken into account when designing a game to understand how certain behaviors will impact the long-term sustainability of your game. If someone isn't incentivized to communicate, to form these bonds, they don't do it. Enclosed communities build ties better than shuffling everyone around.

    The psychology of classic WoW has driven me, and many others to form these bonds and friendships, caring about the people we come across because they are part of our world, our realm community.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Except that the living metropolis only exists in the one spot that all the high level people congregate in, and the rest of the world is empty. See: Vanilla areas in TBC Classic. See: Outland areas once everyone hits 70 in TBC Classic. See: Classic before the surge of levelers for TBC Classic.

    You've always been replaceable. Welcome to the real world, where 30 other people are always waiting to take your spot and leave you behind. TBC Classic isn't making you irreplacable.
    I think you misunderstood what I am saying, I'm saying metropolises are lifeless, and lonely, where as in a small town you know everyones name, and it gives you a feel-good sensation of not being alone. That is one of the best parts of an MMO. Retail WoW is cold and lonely, it's a big reason why a lot of people don't like it.

    I think dead servers should be linked up, or even merged. Servers with a strong population have no reason to encounter people from other servers outside of BGs.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The loss of realm community is the gain of the entire rest of the game. You could easily have a community off server, you choose not to.
    I don't think it is a gain for the rest of the game, maybe for the people who like the constant -go/go/go- rapid-fire nature of retail, but that's why there are two separate games. In fact, Blizzard knows one of the reason a lot of people are jaded about retail is precisely because of cross-realm dungeoning, remember when they pitched pristine realms ( https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Pristine_realm ) as an alternative to classic? They know one of the gripes people have with retail is that realm community is important to a lot of people.
    Last edited by The-Shan; 2021-06-13 at 05:55 AM.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  16. #36
    I love how every feature that opens up the game to a wider audience has been decried as "the end of social...", especially since most of the people who actually think this way are solo players.
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    I don't think it is a gain for the rest of the game, maybe for the people who like the constant -go/go/go- rapid-fire nature of retail, but that's why there are two separate games. In fact, Blizzard knows one of the reason a lot of people are jaded about retail is precisely because of cross-realm dungeoning, remember when they pitched pristine realms ( https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Pristine_realm ) as an alternative to classic? They know one of the gripes people have with retail is that realm community is important to a lot of people.
    They thought that.

    I'd be curious what they think of the idea of "pristine" realms now that Classic has launched and they see just how disrespected the content is. People destroyed Classic. They tore through content, and on populous servers, calling someone out in Trade/LFG for ninjaing got you more hate than ninjaing itself.

    If you personally force yourself into small groups, sure. You can find that on retail as well by forcing yourself into a small group. Your small group will probably care about your opinion, but pretending it's a "server community" is laughable in that case. The server itself doesn't give a shit, just you and your small group of close friends do.

    But no, the game designing itself around forming groups, doesn't make people do so. We CLEARLY saw that in Classic Vanilla. In fact, Classic Vanilla proved that even in Vanilla, the community didn't need to exist - Just chat rooms to get people together. And with Discord on the side, there's never going to be a time that the Classic Era realms can escape that.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
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  18. #38
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    I love how every feature that opens up the game to a wider audience has been decried as "the end of social...", especially since most of the people who actually think this way are solo players.
    Diminishing smaller singular communities in favor of a single larger one does hurt the quality of the social interactions, bigger isn't always better. Closed communities like realms provide more meaningful interactions, and prompt the player to think more about the people they are grouping with. When the dungeon is over, there is a strong chance you'll see them again, when it's one of the millions who just get tossed back into the oblivion after the LFD dungeon is over, that is a lower quality social interaction.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    They thought that.

    I'd be curious what they think of the idea of "pristine" realms now that Classic has launched and they see just how disrespected the content is. People destroyed Classic. They tore through content, and on populous servers, calling someone out in Trade/LFG for ninjaing got you more hate than ninjaing itself.

    If you personally force yourself into small groups, sure. You can find that on retail as well by forcing yourself into a small group. Your small group will probably care about your opinion, but pretending it's a "server community" is laughable in that case. The server itself doesn't give a shit, just you and your small group of close friends do.

    But no, the game designing itself around forming groups, doesn't make people do so. We CLEARLY saw that in Classic Vanilla. In fact, Classic Vanilla proved that even in Vanilla, the community didn't need to exist - Just chat rooms to get people together. And with Discord on the side, there's never going to be a time that the Classic Era realms can escape that.
    I don't think they'd be surprised that people tore through the content. Everyone knew the content would be cleared almost immediately. Most guilds haven't even killed Gruul or finished Karazhan yet, let alone have they stepped into Mags Lair. The hardcore balls to the wall people like Progress tore through it because that's their job, the rest of the people will definitely have Kara/Mag/Gruul on farm faster than Nathria, but it wont diminish the quality of the content, I think. Who cares what progress does? If that bothers you, you're not going to like the rest of the classic, and cross-realm grouping wont fix that.

    You can force yourself into a smaller group on retail, it's called a guild, but on retail you're not going to find guild rivalries or the interesting interactions that can be born out of having contained realm communities. Maybe on a roleplaying server like Moon Guard/Wyrmerst Accord or Argent Dawn EU where you get guilds hosting large RP events.

    You have a very bleak perspective on Classic, one that cross-realm grouping isn't going to fix. Vanilla had its problems, but I think a large amount of the problems, (i.e the world buff meta) were solved with TBC, and I would love to see Blizzard try to solve the LFG channel spam with the retail LFG tool before resorting to cross-realm grouping.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by The-Shan View Post
    You can force yourself into a smaller group on retail, it's called a guild, but on retail you're not going to find guild rivalries or the interesting interactions that can be born out of having contained realm communities. Maybe on a roleplaying server like Moon Guard/Wyrmerst Accord or Argent Dawn EU where you get guilds hosting large RP events.
    Guild rivalries only existed because guilds poached each other's players in order to progress, and/or battled each other FOR progress. The first is only a recipe for disaster, not for interesting gameplay. The second still exists today.

    Nothing is gained out of poaching members from each other. Nothing is lost from guilds not poaching each other's members.

    If you're making a rivalry against another guild, again - It's not due to dungeons, and LFD doesn't affect it. I absolutely still had a guild rivalry even into Cataclysm - My guild was battling another for Realm First level 25 Guild. It's entirely on you if you don't want that anymore, and Classic doesn't even encourage it. (Beyond poaching, and the Black Quiraj crystal, which was shit because of how few people would ever have a chance to do it.)

    You have a very bleak perspective on Classic, one that cross-realm grouping isn't going to fix. Vanilla had its problems, but I think a large amount of the problems, (i.e the world buff meta) were solved with TBC, and I would love to see Blizzard try to solve the LFG channel spam with the retail LFG tool before resorting to cross-realm grouping.
    I already put in my initial reply that it'd be an interesting experiment.

    But I already expect it to go cross realm not long after, because all the things you claim will go away, will be present even with retail LFG. Nothing prevents it.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-06-13 at 06:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Guild rivalries only existed because guilds poached each other's players in order to progress. Once again, this is only a recipe for disaster, not for interesting gameplay.
    This isn't true at all. Guild rivalries can form for all sorts of reasons. Usually being similar guilds competing for similar goals.

    Also, players are people. They can make their own decisions. If they want to move to a different guild, it is up to them. They are not a commodity that is owned by their guild. This idea of players being "stolen" implies that you view them as property and it's weird.

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