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  1. #1

    [Updated for Dragonflight] Munitions - If RSV was to return

    Petitioning for the idea of adding what was RSV + modern design applications as a 4th spec option for the class.

    This concept has been updated to fit the philosophies and changes to the design of classes as a whole, as we can see for Dragonflight. All baseline abilities that are given on a class-wide basis would be the same for all hunter specs, incl this one. As for the talents for Munitions(old RSV), see below.

    Original post: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...-return/935558

    As usual, any numbers mentioned are only here to provide further depth to the concept and are ofc subject to change. Feedback is appreciated!


    Starting ability in the class tree, given for free

    I would move Serpent Sting from its current position in the class tree, to take the place of Concussive Shot as a starting talent. Concussive Shot itself I would simply move 1 row down, like the image shows. The image itself, other than the aformentioned changes, is the same as the current up-to-date version, seen in the Alpha for Dragonflight. As per the title of this section, this new spec would be given Serpent Sting for free, similar to how for example Beast Mastery gets Kill Command for free.

    [Serpent Sting] - 10 Focus Instant cast
    Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 18 sec.
    [Placeholder talent] - The PH talent in the image could simply be one that, if picked, gives you -/- % more non-physical damage dealt.

    Alternative layout: https://i.imgur.com/T9DoTGR.png




    Mastery Bonus

    [Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.


    Specialization Talents

    I would argue that Lone Wolf shouldn’t be a talent, but a baseline passive for both of these specs. For anyone who wishes to make use of it.

    The image below shows a mock-up sketch of what the spec tree for Munitions(old RSV) could look like, based on the new design. Below the image are all the explanations and tooltips for all the talent nodes. Again - Feedback is of course much appreciated. There are also an additional note at the bottom of the post, regarding a specific talent: Dark Minion, that is present in the talent tree. Image link: https://i.imgur.com/gfXQSzV.png

    Edit:
    Have made the tree available in a calculator for the concept seen below. Feel free to check it out.

    Download TTM(TalentTreeManager) here: https://github.com/TobiasM95/WoW-Talent-Tree-Manager (Not made by me)

    After it's installed, start it up. Once it is, click on the + to open a new tab. This makes a small pop-up window appear, in which you can choose to import a preset from an existing spec/class, or you can import a custom one. To get the concept above imported, copy-paste the code, all of it, into the custom import box and click 'Import Tree'.

    Link for the code(scroll down the page and copy-paste the code in the "Raw Paste Data" window): https://pastebin.com/pxjdj0wx


    -Row 1-

    [Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
    Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.

    -Row 2-

    Choice node, pick one of the following talents

    [Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
    A fast shot that causes X Physical damage.

    Generates 10 Focus.

    [Fusion Shot] - 2 sec cast time(castable while moving) - 6 sec recharge - 2 Charges
    Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage.

    When your next ability that deals periodic damage hits the target, this triggers a volatile fusion, immediately causing it to erupt, instantly dealing additional damage equal to 25% of it’s total duration. The target will take additional damage of the same type as the ability used to trigger the fusion for the next 12 sec.

    Generates 25 Focus.
    [Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
    Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

    The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.

    -Row 3-

    [Serpent’s Focus] - Cobra Shot generates 3/6 additional Focus per cast.

    Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.
    [Exothermia] (Requires talent: Fusion Shot)
    Increases your critical strike chance against any enemy you hit with Fusion Shot by 3/6% for 9 sec. Dealing Fire damage to the target extends the duration of this effect even further.

    Fusion Shot generates an additonal 5/10 Focus over 5 sec.
    [Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Immolation Trap, and Surging Shot by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.
    [Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.

    -Row 4-

    [Spitting Cobra] - Cobra Shot now deals an additional 15% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by 9 sec.
    [Noxious Stings] - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Serpent Sting by 20%. Increases the periodic critical damage of Explosive Shot and Black Arrow by 20% on targets affected by Serpent Sting.
    [Ever Burning] - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the remaining duration of that charge is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.

    An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.
    [Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
    Fires several missiles, hitting all enemies within 8 yards of your current target for Physical damage.
    [Vespoid Venom] - Whenever Serpent Sting deals damage, there’s a chance that this can cause all other periodic damage effects you have applied to the target to instantly deal damage equal to one tick of their total effect.

    If this proc occurs when the target is affected by Black Arrow, this will instantly refresh its remaining duration and restore 8 Focus back to you.
    [Rapid Reload] - Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.
    [Catalysis] - Duration 10 sec.

    Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by 5/10%.

    In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load have a 50/100% chance to extend the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.

    -Row 5-

    [Improved Serpent Sting] - Serpent Sting now deals 15/30% increased damage against targets below 30% health.
    [Exotic Munitions: Ever Burning] - Exotic Munition-procs, when they occur, always increase the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charge you have on the current target by 3 seconds.
    [Improved Explosive Shot] - Damage dealt by Explosive Shot is increased by 5/10%.
    [Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of its duration.
    [Wyrmstalker] - Casting Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, or Multi-Shot reduces the Focus cost and increases the damage of your next Arcane Shot by 15/30%. This effect stacks.
    [Intoxication] - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a 5/10% chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. When Black Arrow expires from an enemy, you gain a stack of this effect as well.

    Intoxication
    - When you use an ability that deals instant damage, it has a 50/100% chance to be a critical strike.
    - When you use an ability that deals periodic damage, damage caused by this ability is increased by an additional 10/20%.

    -Row 6-

    [Death Adder] - Serpent Sting also deals instant damage equal to 30% of its total periodic effect.

    Also applies to Talent: Serpent Spread.

    Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 Focus.
    [T.N.T.] - Explosive Shot now also deals 20/40/60% damage to all enemies near the primary target.
    [Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
    Increases your haste by 25% and instantly triggers Lock & Load. When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.

    The Focus cost of all offensive abilities is reduced by 50% while Munition Tactics is active.
    [Exotic Munitions: Arcane Shot] - Arcane Shot now has a 15% chance to trigger an Exotic Munitions-proc when fired.
    [Surging Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
    Fire a shot with an attached electrical charge that will send Electrifying Shocks through the enemy that's been hit, dealing Nature damage every 2 sec, over 20 sec.

    -Row 7-

    [Exotic Munitions: Death Adder] - If the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, this also triggers the Death Adder-effect.
    [Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
    Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for Fire damage over 20 sec. The trap will exist for 1 min.
    Choice node, pick one of the following two talents

    [Munition Tactics: Black Arrow] - Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.

    [Soulflay] - Increases the base duration of Black Arrow by 4 sec.

    Black Arrow increases all damage you deal to the affected target by 15% while Munition Tactics is active.
    [Improved Black Arrow] - Damage dealt by Black Arrow is increased by 5/10%.
    [ “Surgery” ] - Whenever Surging Shot deals damage via Electrifying Shocks, it has a 10/20% chance to deal damage a second time.
    [E.M.F.] - While the periodic damage effect from Surging Shot remains active, there’s a 50/100% chance for the remaining cooldown of Surging Shot to be reduced by 0.5 sec every time you deal periodic damage to the affected target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Surging Shot, the remaining cooldown is reset.

    This effect only applies to the initial target of Surging Shot.

    -Row 8-

    [Inferno] - Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by 5/10%.

    Whenever an enemy triggers Immolation Trap, or if an enemy that is affected by Explosive Shot is within, or if you hit an enemy with Cluster Shot within 10 yards of an armed Immolation Trap, this will set off the trap, causing a wave of fire to engulf all nearby enemies within 12 yards of the trap.

    Targets hit by the wave take instant Fire damage equal to 20/40% of the total effect of Immolation Trap, and another 30/60% over a period of 10 sec.
    [Pre-Heat] - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, its cooldown is reset.
    [Exotic Munitions: Immolation Trap] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Immolation Trap.

    -Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by 7.5/15% for the remaining duration.
    [Rapid Recuperation] - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.

    Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 50/100% chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec every time it deals damage to the target.
    [Dark Minion] - When Black Arrow deals damage to an enemy, it has a chance to summon an undead minion to aid you in combat, attacking that same enemy for 10 sec.

    If an enemy dies with Black Arrow still active on it, a powerful minion will reanimate to serve you for 60 sec. This can only happen once every 45 sec.
    [Shocking] - When Surging Shot deals damage through Electrifying Shocks, you have a 4/8% chance to trigger Lock & Load, granting a free charge of Explosive Shot.
    [Full Circuit] - Electrifying Shocks from Surging Shot can now jump to enemies near the primary target, dealing additional Nature damage to each enemy it hits, as well as dealing damage to any enemy that is near the target of a jump.

    -Row 9-

    [Wildfire] - 8 sec duration
    The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target. As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.
    [Volatile Concoctions] - When Explosive Shot deals damage to an enemy affected by Black Arrow, there’s a chance that this adds another stack to the periodic damage effect of Black Arrow.

    If the periodic effect of Black Arrow is already at three stacks, it will instead add damage to the existing effect for 30% of the total value. The bonus damage added to the existing effect will only last for a total of 12 sec, regardless of how long the existing effect stays active. Also applies to manual applications of Black Arrow.
    Choice node, pick one of the following talents

    [Exotic Munitions: Black Arrow] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Black Arrow.

    - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

    [Exotic Munitions: Surging Shot] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Surging Shot.

    - Triggers an Electrifying Shock to deal instant Nature damage equal to the remaining duration of the periodic effect from Surging Shot, up to a max of 50% of the total effect.
    [Double-Charged] - Surging Shot now has 1 additional charge.
    [Exotic Munitions: Full Circuit] - The chance to proc Exotic Munitions is increased by 10% on enemies affected by Electrifying Shock.

    -Row 10-

    [Cluster Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown.
    Fire a shot which explodes on impact, instantly dealing Physical damage to the primary target and all other nearby enemies, and causing them to bleed for Physical damage over 3 sec.

    Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage to the affected target(s) at once.
    Choice node, pick one of the following talents

    [Static Overload] - Instant - 1.5 min cooldown
    Overload an Electrifying Shock on the current target, blasting the primary target along with all enemies within 12 yards for additional Nature damage and consumes the charge in the process. When such an overload occurs, the discharge creates an Arc Field that lasts for 6 sec. Any enemy that steps into the field has a high chance of being affected by Electrifying Shock yet again.

    [Supercharge] - Instant - 1 min cooldown
    Increases the critical strike chance and damage of the next Surging Shot by 30%, and also increases the base duration by 5 sec.

    Note regarding “Talent: Dark Minion”
    I decided to include this talent as, due to the recent quest chain, and customizations that were added in-game. These allow players to change the appearance of their hunter characters to more closely resemble Dark Rangers. Based on this, in short, I wanted to give anyone who enjoys that fantasy and theme an option to embrace it even more.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2022-08-15 at 08:39 PM. Reason: New path/connection added from Munition Tactics -> Improved Black Arrow

  2. #2
    Pretty sure this has more thought put into it than any of Blizzard's Survival plans since Cataclysm.

  3. #3
    miss ranged survival ...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bepples View Post
    Pretty sure this has more thought put into it than any of Blizzard's Survival plans since Cataclysm.
    Don't know about that but it has taken a few...hours...of time indeed. TBH if I count the old post and everything that went into that one, all the reading and contemplating etc, it's probably closer to "weeks" at this point. Luckily, much of the thinking can be done while doing other things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Devilyaki View Post
    miss ranged survival ...
    Same!

    Hopefully they decide to give it back to us and the class.

    There isn't really anything that would speak to the opposite, why it shouldn't be done, so I remain hopeful still.

  5. #5
    Banned docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Would like for glyph of black ice's effect to be in there somewhere. Utility tier talent maybe. Tar trap becomes ice trap, increasing its radius by 5 yards. Standing in the ice trap increases the hunter's movement speed by 50%.

    Was great for kiting.

  6. #6
    Is there any special reason Cobra Shot should be physical damage? It was nature damage for a long time.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Would like for glyph of black ice's effect to be in there somewhere. Utility tier talent maybe. Tar trap becomes ice trap, increasing its radius by 5 yards. Standing in the ice trap increases the hunter's movement speed by 50%.

    Was great for kiting.
    It was. I did include a passive enhancement to Tar Trap in the Passives-section. Where Tar Trap has it's base trigger radius as well as the effect radius increased by 25%. And it slows enemies by more, and for a little while even if they were to get out from the ground effect.

    It's not Glyph of Black Ice, but it's certainly better than the default version we have now.

    My reasoning is mostly that the suggestions above would be more useful on a broader scope, compared to something like the Black Ice-effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qman View Post
    Is there any special reason Cobra Shot should be physical damage? It was nature damage for a long time.
    Mostly because that's what it does in the game currently.

    There is however a talent: Spitting Cobra, which makes it deal increased damage and as Nature damage. + if picked, it also extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on any target you with it.

  8. #8
    The concept in the OP has been updated to fit the philosophies and changes to the design of classes as a whole, as we can see for Dragonflight. All baseline abilities that are given on a class-wide basis would be the same for all hunter specs, incl this one. As for the talents for Munitions(old RSV), see below.

    As usual, any numbers mentioned are only here to provide further depth to the concept and are ofc subject to change. Feedback is appreciated!


    Starting ability in the class tree, given for free

    I would move Serpent Sting from its current position in the class tree, to take the place of Concussive Shot as a starting talent. Concussive Shot itself I would simply move 1 row down, like the image shows. The image itself, other than the aformentioned changes, is the same as the current up-to-date version, seen in the Alpha for Dragonflight. As per the title of this section, this new spec would be given Serpent Sting for free, similar to how for example Beast Mastery gets Kill Command for free.

    [Serpent Sting] - 10 Focus - Instant cast
    Fire a shot that poisons your target, causing them to take Nature damage over 18 sec.
    [Placeholder talent] - The PH talent in the image could simply be one that, if picked, gives you -/- % more non-physical damage dealt.

    Alternative layout: https://i.imgur.com/iqKJArU.png




    Mastery Bonus

    [Mastery Bonus: Toxicology] - Increases all non-physical damage dealt by X%, based on Mastery.


    Specialization Talents

    Below, you’ll find that Lone Wolf is present as a talent option in the tree. Both Marksmanship, and what was Survival in Warlords of Draenor, they were both given Lone Wolf as a talent option, so I see no issue in it being a thing in this version either. Though, like with the current alpha-version of Marksmanship, I would argue that Lone Wolf shouldn’t be a talent, but a baseline passive for both of these specs. For anyone who wishes to make use of it.

    Below is an image, showing a mock-up sketch of what the spec tree for Munitions(old RSV) could look like, based on the new design. Below the image, explanations and tooltips are present for all the talent nodes. Again - Feedback is of course much appreciated. There are also an additional note at the bottom of the post, regarding a specific talent: Dark Minion, that is present in the talent tree.

    Image link: https://i.imgur.com/uxJcjYx.png



    -Row 1-

    [Explosive Shot] - 20 Focus - Instant cast - 10 sec recharge - 2 charges
    Fire an explosive charge into the enemy target, dealing Fire damage. The charge will blast the target every second for an additional 4 sec.

    -Row 2-

    Choice node, pick one of the following talents

    [Cobra Shot] - Instant cast
    A fast shot that causes X Physical damage.

    Generates 10 Focus.

    [Fusion Shot] - 2 sec cast time(castable while moving) - 6 sec recharge - 2 Charges
    Fire a charged shot into the target, dealing Physical damage.

    When your next ability that deals periodic damage hits the target, this triggers a volatile fusion immediately causing it to erupt instantly dealing additional damage equal to 25% of it’s total duration. The target will take additional damage of the same type as the ability used to trigger the fusion for the next 12 sec.

    Generates 25 Focus.
    [Lone Wolf] - Increases your damage by X% when you do not have an active pet.
    [Black Arrow] - 30 Focus - Instant cast - 30 sec cooldown
    Fire a shot infused with dark energy at the target, dealing Shadow damage over 12 sec.

    The periodic damage-effect applied by Black Arrow can be stacked up to 3 times on the same enemy.

    -Row 3-

    [Serpent’s Focus] - Cobra Shot generates 3/6 additional Focus per cast.
    [Exothermia] (Requires talent: Fusion Shot)
    Increases your critical strike chance against any enemy you hit with Fusion Shot by X% for 12 sec. Dealing Fire damage to the target extends this effect even further.
    Fusion Shot generates an additonal 10 Focus over 5 sec.
    [Vespoid Venom] - Whenever Serpent Sting deals damage, there’s a chance that this can cause all other periodic damage effects you have applied to the target to instantly deal damage equal to one tick of their total effect.

    If this proc occurs when the target is affected by Black Arrow, this will instantly refresh it’s remaining duration and restore 8 Focus back to you.
    [Lock and Load] - Periodic damage dealt by Black Arrow and Surging Shot have a chance to cause your next Explosive Shot to cost no Focus and trigger no cooldown.

    -Row 4-

    [Spitting Cobra] - Cobra Shot now deals an additional X% damage as Nature damage and extends the remaining duration of Serpent Sting on the enemy target by X sec.

    Cobra Shot now has a high chance of generating double Focus when fired.
    [Noxious Stings] - Increases the periodic critical damage of your Explosive Shot, Serpent Sting, and Black Arrow by 25%.
    [Ever Burning] - If you fire Explosive Shot into an enemy already affected by a previous charge, the remaining duration of that charge is refreshed as well as increased by an additional 3 seconds.

    An active charge can only have a max duration of 9 seconds.
    [Multi-Shot] - 40 Focus - Instant cast
    Fires several missiles, hitting up to 5 targets within 8 yards of your current target for X Physical damage.
    [Exotic Munitions] - Your Auto Attacks have a chance to increase the remaining duration of either Serpent Sting, Black Arrow, Immolation Trap, or Surging Shot by 5 seconds, on an enemy affected by either of these periodic damage effects.
    [Rapid Reload] - Lock and Load now grants 2 charges of Explosive Shot when it procs, instead of 1.
    [Catalysis] - Duration 10 sec.
    Black Arrow increases any Fire-damage you deal to an enemy by 5/10%.

    In addition, Explosive Shot-charges granted by Lock & Load extend the remaining duration of Black Arrow by 1 second every time they deal damage to the affected target.

    -Row 5-

    [Improved Serpent Sting] - Serpent Sting now deals -/-% increased damage against targets below 30% health.
    [Exotic Munitions: Ever Burning] - Exotic Munition-procs, when they occur, always increase the remaining duration of any active Explosive Shot charge you have on the current target by 3 seconds.
    [Improved Explosive Shot] - Damage dealt by Explosive Shot increased by 5/10%.
    [Serpent Spread] - Targets hit by Multi-Shot are also afflicted by Serpent Sting equal to 9 sec of it’s duration.
    [Wyrmstalker] - Casting Explosive Shot, Black Arrow, Serpent Sting, or Multi-Shot reduces the Focus cost and increases the damage of your next Arcane Shot by 15/30%. This effect stacks.
    [Intoxication] - Your ranged Auto Attacks have a 5/10% chance to grant you 2 stacks of Intoxication. When Black Arrow expires from an enemy, you gain a stack of this effect as well.

    Intoxication
    When you use an ability that deals instant damage, it has a 100% chance to be a critical strike.
    When you use an ability that deals periodic damage, damage caused by this ability is increased by an additional X%.

    -Row 6-

    [Death Adder] - Serpent Sting also does instant damage equal to 30% of it’s total periodic effect. Also applies to Talent: Serpent Spread.

    Every time Serpent Sting deals damage, you have a chance to gain 3 Focus.
    [T.N.T.] - Explosive Shot now also deals 20/40/60% damage to all enemies near the primary target.
    [Munition Tactics] - 20 sec duration - 2 minute cooldown.
    Increases your haste by X% and instantly triggers Lock & Load(Passive). When Explosive Shot is used during Munition Tactics, this resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.
    [Exotic Munitions: Arcane Shot] - Arcane Shot now has a X% chance to trigger an Exotic Munitions-proc when fired.
    [Surging Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
    Fire a shot with an attached electrical charge that will send Electrifying Shocks through the enemy that’s been hit, dealing X Nature damage every 2 sec, over 20 sec.

    -Row 7-

    [Exotic Munitions: Death Adder] - If the passive effect “Exotic Munitions” procs while your Serpent Sting is active on the target, this also triggers the Death Adder-effect.
    [Immolation Trap] - Instant cast - 1 minute cooldown
    Hurls a fire trap to the target location that will burn the first enemy to approach for X Fire damage over 20 sec. The trap will exist for 1 min.
    [Munition Tactics: Black Arrow] - Any time Explosive Shot deals damage to a target affected by Black Arrow, during Munition Tactics, this will cause the periodic damage effect applied by Black Arrow to spread to nearby enemies as well.

    (This effect is replaced by a different passive effect when engaged in instanced PvP; If your Black Arrow is at any time dispelled or otherwise removed from an enemy target, this instantly resets the remaining cooldown of Black Arrow.)
    [Improved Black Arrow] - Damage dealt by Black Arrow increased by 5/10%.
    [ “Surgery” ] - Whenever Surging Shot deals damage via Electrifying Shocks, it has a 5/10% chance to deal damage a second time.
    [E.M.F.] - While the periodic damage effect from Surging Shot remains active, there’s a 50/100% chance for the remaining cooldown of Surging Shot to be reduced by 0.5 sec every time you deal periodic damage to the affected target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Surging Shot, the remaining cooldown is reset.

    This effect only applies to the initial target of Surging Shot.

    -Row 8-

    [Inferno] - Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by 5/10%.

    If an enemy that is affected by Explosive Shot, or if you hit an enemy with Cluster Shot within 10 yards of an armed Immolation Trap, this will set off the trap, causing a wave of fire to engulf all nearby enemies within 10 yards of the trap.
    [Pre-Heat] - The cooldown of Immolation Trap is reduced by 5 seconds every time Immolation Trap deals critical damage to the enemy target. In addition, if an enemy target dies while affected by Immolation Trap, it’s cooldown is reset.
    [Exotic Munitions: Immolation Trap] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Immolation Trap.

    Immolation Trap - Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by -/-% for the remaining duration.
    [Rapid Recuperation] - Damage caused by Explosive Shot have a -/- chance to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.

    Whenever Lock & Load procs, this causes the next Explosive Shot fired to have a 50/100% chance for each of it’s ticks to reduce the remaining cooldown of Munition Tactics by 1 sec.
    [Dark Minion] - When Black Arrow deals damage to an enemy, it has a chance to summon an undead minion to aid you in combat, attacking that same enemy for 15 sec.

    If an enemy dies with Black Arrow still active on it, a powerful minion will reanimate to serve you for 60 sec. This can only happen once every 45 sec.
    [Shocking] - When Surging Shot deals damage through Electrifying Shocks, you have a -/- chance to trigger Lock & Load, granting a free charge of Explosive Shot.
    [Full Circuit] - Electrifying Shocks from Surging Shot can now jump to enemies near the primary target, dealing additional Nature damage to each enemy it hits, as well as dealing damage to any enemy that is near the target of a jump.

    -Row 9-

    [Wildfire] - 8 sec duration
    The periodic damage effect applied by Immolation Trap will now spread to any enemy standing in close range to an already burning target. As long as an enemy is within range of another enemy affected by Wildfire or Immolation Trap, the Wildfire will continue to spread.
    [Volatile Concoctions] - When Explosive Shot deals damage to an enemy affected by Black Arrow, there’s a chance that this adds another stack to the periodic damage effect of Black Arrow.
    Choice node, pick one of the following talents

    [Exotic Munitions: Black Arrow] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Black Arrow.

    Black Arrow - The remaining cooldown of Black Arrow is instantly reset.

    [Exotic Munitions: Surging Shot] - When you get a Exotic Munitions-proc, it will grant you an additional bonus effect when it extends the duration of Surging Shot.

    Surging Shot - Triggers an Electrifying Shock that deals instant Nature damage equal to the remaining duration of the periodic effect from Surging Shot.
    [Double-charged] - Surging Shot now has 1 additional charge.
    [Exotic Munitions: Full Circuit] - The chance to proc Exotic Munitions is increased by X% on enemies affected by Electrifying Shock.

    -Row 10-

    [Cluster Shot] - 25 Focus - Instant cast - 15 sec cooldown.
    Fire a shot which explodes on impact, instantly dealing Physical damage to the primary target and all other nearby enemies, and causing them to bleed for an additional X Physical damage over 3 sec.

    Explosive Shot-charges which are still active on any target(s) hit by Cluster Shot will instantly erupt, dealing all remaining damage to the affected target(s) at once.
    Choice node, pick one of the following talents

    [Static Overload] - Instant - 1.5 min cooldown
    Overload an Electrifying Charge on the current target, blasting the primary target along with all enemies within 12 yards for additional Nature damage and consumes the charge in the process. When a charge is overloaded, the discharge creates an Arc Field that lasts for X sec. Any enemy that steps into the field has a high chance of being affected by Elecrifying Shock yet again.

    [Supercharge] - Instant - 1.5 min cooldown
    Increases the critical strike chance and damage of the next Surging Shot by 30%, and also increases the base duration by 5 sec.

    Note regarding “Talent: Dark Minion”
    I decided to include this talent as, due to the recent quest chain, and customizations that were added in-game. These allow players to change the appearance of their hunter characters to more closely resemble Dark Rangers. Based on this, in short, I wanted to give anyone who enjoys that fantasy and theme an option to embrace it even more.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2022-07-28 at 08:32 PM. Reason: Added a talent called Shocking, along with new paths to avoid having to take AoE-nodes for Surging Shot

  9. #9
    very well put thread! also probably wont take long until someone comes here and be like "hurr durr JuSt PiCk TaLeNtS iN bM oR mM, iT's ThE sAmE tHiNg"

  10. #10
    For Marks to get Trailblazer, they would have to take one of Kill Command or Serpent Sting. Doesn't feel good to force a spec to alter their rotation just to reach a mobility option.

    Explosive Shot shouldn't have charges as baseline. Adding 2 free charges is what made Lock and Load special to it.

    Modern Explosive Shot is a good ability and I don't think it should be deleted for the sake of RSV. It also fits its name better than the old MoP Explosive Shot. I've called for the return of old Explosive, but renamed as "Incendiary Shot"; I feel that name fits the POP POP POP nature of the attack better.
    Last edited by Rustov; 2022-07-21 at 09:21 PM.

  11. #11
    I actually love the idea of this as someone who played surv during multistrike i loved the idea of this.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Makaloff View Post
    very well put thread! also probably wont take long until someone comes here and be like "hurr durr JuSt PiCk TaLeNtS iN bM oR mM, iT's ThE sAmE tHiNg"
    Thanks! I would call this an early draft, despite how it's based on the previous concepts that I've come up with, in terms of ability design etc. Due to how talent design structures are changing in Dragonflight, many of the talents that I brought forward from the old concepts had to be reworked(to a varying degree ofc), as you'd be able to make some pretty "out-there" combos otherwise. I'm definitely going to go back and re-read it all plenty of times to see if I notice some things that'd need to be iterated on further(probably a few left).

    And yeah, such comments always show up eventually.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    For Marks to get Trailblazer, they would have to take one of Kill Command or Serpent Sting. Doesn't feel good to force a spec to alter their rotation just to reach a mobility option.

    Explosive Shot shouldn't have charges as baseline. Adding 2 free charges is what made Lock and Load special to it.

    Modern Explosive Shot is a good ability and I don't think it should be deleted for the sake of RSV. It also fits its name better than the old MoP Explosive Shot. I've called for the return of old Explosive, but renamed as "Incendiary Shot"; I feel that name fits the POP POP POP nature of the attack better.
    From what I've seen so far, most of the proposed MM builds are taking Serpent Sting at the current position anyway, so they get to LPI/VV, due to taking Serpentstalker in the MM tree. But yeah, feel free to specify the scenario(s) where you feel that you'd have to take Trailblazer. As an opposite to the above, so far I haven't seen anyone who have picked Trailblazer in their build. Not saying that you can't ofc.

    About Explosive Shot, and 2 charges, we all look at it differently I guess, but I don't see how having 2 charges baseline would be a bad thing. Especially considering some of the interactions with certain talents that I've suggested.

    Then, about modern Explosive Shot, the ability was designed for RSV in the first place. I wouldn't say that the current ability should take precedent over what it was originally made for, if they would ever decide to bring it(RSV) back. Besides, if it's the mechanical application of the ability that you're after, there are plenty of ways to achieve that without it having to remain as Explosive Shot.


    EDIT: You could also just do this with the layout(image).





    Quote Originally Posted by reynesthan1 View Post
    I actually love the idea of this as someone who played surv during multistrike i loved the idea of this.
    You and me both! Appreciate it.
    Last edited by F Rm; 2022-07-21 at 11:47 PM.

  13. #13
    I came here just to say you are mean. Your title made me think they adjusted the trees again so you could have the old spec back =/

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    I came here just to say you are mean. Your title made me think they adjusted the trees again so you could have the old spec back =/
    Sorry! In my defense, I did try to change the title. But for some reason, only the sub-title was changed.

    Here's the title I would want: [Updated for Dragonflight] Munitions - If RSV was to return

    I see you're a mod. Could it be changed? Would appreciate it.^^
    Last edited by F Rm; 2022-07-21 at 11:55 PM.

  15. #15
    Trailblazer is a bit weak as-is, but the bigger point is that the upper levels of the Class Tree are already smartly laid out- you can take Conc Shot and have rotation/throughput-neutral access to everything in the tree save Imp. Kill Shot.

    I see 2 charges on baseline Explosive as overpowered, over-flexible. Aimed Shot earned that from having a longer cooldown and a long cast-time, making it difficult to use on-CD. RSV's rotation was not very demanding in the first place, requiring it to expend an instant 6-sec CD ability on cooldown was one of the few challenges of it. Additionally, when Lock and Load does proc, it felt different and a bonus to string 3 Explosives together. 2 charges base would water down the rotation.

    It's a matter of aesthetics for Explosive's name. It never felt "Explosive" in the first place, less a HE grenade and more of a white phosphor munition. Further muddying the matter, Blizz took it from RSV and gave it to MM when they deleted the former. They couldn't hand it over as-is, though, because it competed for the role of main spender with Aimed Shot, so they redesigned it. The first iteration was pretty bad, but the BFA variant ended up pretty good, and IMO, more befitting of its name. Now we have the issue of having two good abilities with the same name and wanting to feature both. I'm being a little prickler about the names, and it's honestly okay with whatever nomenclature is settled on- but you do need to keep modern Explosive Shot (or whatever you'll call it) as a class-wide option.

    New notes:
    I notice your Explosive Shot lasts 4 seconds. OG Explosive was only 2 seconds. I know you lengthened it to interact with various talents you're proposing. Doesn't feel right to me.

    Fusion Shot is too good, or too involved, for its placement on the tree. Cobra Shot doesn't compete. The idea is cool but it feels like it should be deeper in the tree.

    Ah, you nerfed Lock and Load- I think it would feel underwhelming as 2 talent points. As outlined above, I feel the best approach is to have Explosive on 1 charge baseline, and LnL grants to 2 free charges. Further talents can up the rate LnL procs, similar to the MoP 5.4 tier bonus. Perhaps tie additional procs to Serpent Sting applications. *you did do this somewhere in there, now that I read closely.
    Still, Explosive Shot should keep the essence of a nuke, short and intense, and not fall into the role of a Fire Mages Ignite (your Ever-Burning). All the concepts are good but I would rather they were assigned to a different ability- Black Arrow, Surging, Immolation, etc. In a general sense, I would have Explosive -> buffs current DoTs -> procs LnL -> more Explosives -> bigger DoTs feedback loop. You're not far off from this.

    T.N.T.- I would use some kind of Trick Shot, maybe just an exact copy of Trick Shots, to make Explosive an AOE. CC and single-target rotations with mandatory aoe elements don't work well together.

    Dark Minion isn't needed in RSV/"Munitions". If they were to go the Dark Ranger route, that really should be in the Marksman tree, it's their fantasy. When I picture Ranged Survival, the character who most comes to mind is Nesingwary.
    (Hunters really are a mess, they did mash together a bunch of different archetypes and heroes into one class, especially after the MSV add-on).

    Overall, the tree really leans into DoT synergy. It's a good direction, something Blizz could have explored had they kept RSV. I'm having a little difficulty following the layout, and I'm wondering if your tree allows for thematic and mechanical branches, to get different rotations for following different paths, or if it's all "Stacks and extend DoTs in slightly different ways".

    I know I have a dozen different nit-picks with your build, but not to give you the wrong idea- I support what you're doing. It's fun to theorycraft a modern RSV, and the devs and community could use a broader and more detailed pool of ideas to draw from. Hell, I've got my own version of RSV I fantasize about, I'm in the same boat as you.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    Trailblazer is a bit weak as-is, but the bigger point is that the upper levels of the Class Tree are already smartly laid out- you can take Conc Shot and have rotation/throughput-neutral access to everything in the tree save Imp. Kill Shot.
    Sure, thoughts on that alternative layout?
    (Note that for MM, most builds show that they're taking Serpenstalker's Trickery. With that, you wouldn't really make use of the base ability all that much anyway)


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    I see 2 charges on baseline Explosive as overpowered, over-flexible. Aimed Shot earned that from having a longer cooldown and a long cast-time, making it difficult to use on-CD. RSV's rotation was not very demanding in the first place, requiring it to expend an instant 6-sec CD ability on cooldown was one of the few challenges of it. Additionally, when Lock and Load does proc, it felt different and a bonus to string 3 Explosives together. 2 charges base would water down the rotation.
    Not sure I would agree with this, but if it is how you feel about the impact it would have on the "rotation", then that is how you feel. I saw it as an opportunity to strive for a deeper, more involved type of gameplay with a focus on a build-up process, as opposed to simply hitting it whenever it comes up. The reward-side of it all, getting the L&L procs, I would be just as happy with it if Explosive Shot would have 2 charges baseline.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    It's a matter of aesthetics for Explosive's name. It never felt "Explosive" in the first place, less a HE grenade and more of a white phosphor munition. Further muddying the matter, Blizz took it from RSV and gave it to MM when they deleted the former. They couldn't hand it over as-is, though, because it competed for the role of main spender with Aimed Shot, so they redesigned it. The first iteration was pretty bad, but the BFA variant ended up pretty good, and IMO, more befitting of its name. Now we have the issue of having two good abilities with the same name and wanting to feature both. I'm being a little prickler about the names, and it's honestly okay with whatever nomenclature is settled on- but you do need to keep modern Explosive Shot (or whatever you'll call it) as a class-wide option.
    While I do agree that the version we have today is more applicable to the name, as a term, even though it wouldn't be impossible to design it with chain explosions in mind as well. Having said that, WoW in general is full of cases like this. I wouldn't use this argument as a reason not to bring the old Explosive Shot back, since this logic isn't really applied to the rest of the game anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    New notes:
    I notice your Explosive Shot lasts 4 seconds. OG Explosive was only 2 seconds. I know you lengthened it to interact with various talents you're proposing. Doesn't feel right to me.
    In WoD, while you were leveling up from 90-100, you got a passive perk at level...92 I think, which added another second to the base duration of Explosive Shot(3 sec total). I just added 1 more second to that new baseline. That extra second would indeed go a long way towards the build-up concept, like you touched on further down in your post. Not sure why it would be a problem though, even if you don't want to go down that route...


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    Fusion Shot is too good, or too involved, for its placement on the tree. Cobra Shot doesn't compete. The idea is cool but it feels like it should be deeper in the tree.
    I do agree that it might be a bit too much to have that early on in the talent tree. I originally designed it for the old talent structure, and intended for it to be a replacement to Cobra Shot. I decided to keep it because it would allow for a different pacing, compared to CS, and because I thought players would find it fun to play with. I did think of adding it somewhere further down the tree, but in my mind, it just didn't feel right to have it be an addition to Cobra Shot, instead of as an alternative.

    Obviously, you could do the above, but still have it replace Cobra Shot. But considering how they would both be a part of the same talent tree, and then be on "opposite sides", it would cause a lot of issues with the overall layout and design of the tree itself. It would make for quite an unintuitive design if you ask me. So, rather than removing it, I decided to keep it, but make a choice node for the two.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    Ah, you nerfed Lock and Load- I think it would feel underwhelming as 2 talent points. As outlined above, I feel the best approach is to have Explosive on 1 charge baseline, and LnL grants to 2 free charges. Further talents can up the rate LnL procs, similar to the MoP 5.4 tier bonus. Perhaps tie additional procs to Serpent Sting applications. *you did do this somewhere in there, now that I read closely.
    Still, Explosive Shot should keep the essence of a nuke, short and intense, and not fall into the role of a Fire Mages Ignite (your Ever-Burning). All the concepts are good but I would rather they were assigned to a different ability- Black Arrow, Surging, Immolation, etc. In a general sense, I would have Explosive -> buffs current DoTs -> procs LnL -> more Explosives -> bigger DoTs feedback loop. You're not far off from this.
    I did indeed add a talent extension for L&L, to allow you to get that second charge on proc as well. In the form of Rapid Reload. I agree that the original design, of proccing 2 charges baseline, that it was more rewarding, and fun. But considering how blizz has reworked a lot of these mechanics and effects in recent years, I felt that I had to do something similar in this case. I did, like you said, decide to keep it at 1 rank baseline though, and have the second talent point grant you that second charge, through Rapid Reload(but optional). Why? Because they've moved away from that old design, in favor of everything now being charge-based.

    As for my talent; Ever Burning. It's optional. You don't have to take it. Again, I wanted players who would enjoy that playstyle to have the option to pursue it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    T.N.T.- I would use some kind of Trick Shot, maybe just an exact copy of Trick Shots, to make Explosive an AOE. CC and single-target rotations with mandatory aoe elements don't work well together.
    I put T.N.T. as a tangent branch, where it would be possible to bypass it all together.

    I agree that an ability that is used as frequently as Explosive Shot was/would be, it wouldn't feel right to have no way around it. The radius of the explosions wouldn't be that wide, so unless you decide to CC mobs right next to the target you're attacking, it wouldn't be an issue. In PvP, it's ofc a different story, regarding CC, but then, you'd never take something like T.N.T. anyway, would you?


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    Dark Minion isn't needed in RSV/"Munitions". If they were to go the Dark Ranger route, that really should be in the Marksman tree, it's their fantasy. When I picture Ranged Survival, the character who most comes to mind is Nesingwary.
    (Hunters really are a mess, they did mash together a bunch of different archetypes and heroes into one class, especially after the MSV add-on).
    I can't say I'm a big fan of the Dark Ranger-fantasy being a part of the hunter class at all really. Considering the lore of Dark Rangers, it doesn't fit the hunter class. But as we saw recently, with the quests and appearances added in 9.2.5., they seem set on going down that road. And since Black Arrow, as a WoW ability, is inspired by the OG WC3 Dark Ranger, I don't think that it fits in the MM tree even one bit.

    Marksmanship follows the theme of a sharpshooter, not someone who focuses heavily on augmented projectiles/arrows. That theme/fantasy is definitely within the scopes of old RSV.

    Having said that, I'm not sure what you meant with "needed". I included it because many players do very much want to pursue the fantasy of Dark Rangers, including gameplay, not just aesthetics(transmog). And since they have now tied that fantasy even more to the hunter class, I doubt that we're gonna see a Dark Ranger class anytime soon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    Overall, the tree really leans into DoT synergy. It's a good direction, something Blizz could have explored had they kept RSV. I'm having a little difficulty following the layout, and I'm wondering if your tree allows for thematic and mechanical branches, to get different rotations for following different paths, or if it's all "Stacks and extend DoTs in slightly different ways".
    (Sorry, this answer ended up being longer than expected)

    Well...

    The upper left/far left section focuses heavily on posions and animal venom. It provides options for you to automatically refresh/extend the duration of Serpent Sting, add interactions between Serpent Sting and Black Arrow, and Exotic Munitions. Also includes some improvements to Execute-damage, just not as direct as...well, Execute.

    The mid-left/central section focuses on things that involve Explosive Shot. Options for alternative core gameplay surrounding that ability(Ever Burning), along with options for it to be used to AoE, if you want that. And also, further down, interact more with Black Arrow, like a "reverse-L&L" if you want, sort of.

    The bottom left section is generally themed around fire, and explosions, continuing down to Cluster Shot as the capstone talent. But also includes the OG Immolation Trap, albeit with an extended base cooldown, for anyone who wishes to go for it.

    The center-most section/path is focused on past core elements of AoE, via Multi-Shot and Serpent Spread. Further down, it focuses on the new major CD, options for CDR, or improved AoE(situational, and not a thing in PvP).

    The upper right/right section focuses on Black Arrow, L&L, Exotic Munitions, and Arcane Shot as a Focus dump.

    And last, but not least, the bottom right section. It brings a new take on the overarching theme of RSV as a munitions expert. I've had several requests in the past to include a theme involving electricity, so I went for it. The capstone is a choice node for you to pick between burst AoE, and a short-term empowerment to Surging Shot. Both choices could be picked for different scenarios, whether it's for AoE or for ST/Cleave.

    ---

    The general idea with the concept is that it should encompass as much of the spectrum of what a munitions expert could be, within the scope of World of Warcraft. Posions, animal venom, explosives, fire, magic, electricity. All of it can be applicable to a ranged fighter/weapon user.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rustov View Post
    I know I have a dozen different nit-picks with your build, but not to give you the wrong idea- I support what you're doing. It's fun to theorycraft a modern RSV, and the devs and community could use a broader and more detailed pool of ideas to draw from. Hell, I've got my own version of RSV I fantasize about, I'm in the same boat as you.
    It's all good. I do very much appreciate the feedback. I will def take another look at Fusion Shot, and ways to make the base ability a bit more simplistic. While I do somewhat agree with you on your notes regarding what L&L was in the past, I felt that I had to partially step away from that, if I wanted it to be more suitable for modern philosophies, as with how they approach these things today. Could it be done differently? Perhaps.

  17. #17
    What was honestly so different with pre-legion survival that warrants bringing it back?
    The spec fantasy overlapped significantly with marksman to the point if it were a venn diagram it would be a single circle so its 'fantasy' isnt anything unique, why not just tack it onto marksman? the new talent trees allow a lot of customization, just throw it in there, there really wasnt so much in the old iteration that it requires its own tree.

    Honestly even if old survival came back it wouldnt be the same as it was, blizz add and update specs constantly, you would have new abilities, trimmed old abilities and so on, it wouldnt even be recognizable if it didnt get culled.

    So what core thematic did it have that needs to come back?

  18. #18
    There's literally an entire game you can play if you want to play old surv

  19. #19
    - Added a new talent called Inferno in the 8th row.

    - Added a new talent called Shocking in the 8th row, along with new paths to avoid having to take nodes for AoE tied to Surging Shot. Making the AoE optional.


    [Inferno] - Increases damage dealt by Immolation Trap by 5/10%.

    If an enemy that is affected by Explosive Shot, or if you hit an enemy with Cluster Shot within 10 yards of an armed Immolation Trap, this will set off the trap, causing a wave of fire to engulf all nearby enemies within 10 yards of the trap.
    [Shocking] - When Surging Shot deals damage through Electrifying Shocks, you have a -/- chance to trigger Lock & Load, granting a free charge of Explosive Shot.

    Last edited by F Rm; 2022-07-28 at 08:32 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    What was honestly so different with pre-legion survival that warrants bringing it back?
    The spec fantasy overlapped significantly with marksman to the point if it were a venn diagram it would be a single circle so its 'fantasy' isnt anything unique, why not just tack it onto marksman? the new talent trees allow a lot of customization, just throw it in there, there really wasnt so much in the old iteration that it requires its own tree.

    Honestly even if old survival came back it wouldnt be the same as it was, blizz add and update specs constantly, you would have new abilities, trimmed old abilities and so on, it wouldnt even be recognizable if it didnt get culled.

    So what core thematic did it have that needs to come back?
    beacuse marksman and survival played nothing alike. sure it did have slight overlap in wotlk (but so did any specc during that time). they tried to tack the RSV gameplay onto MM in legion, you know what happened? it completly ruined MM and still to this day the specc has to suffer thanks to that decision. you cant cramp 2 different playstyles into the same specc.

    RSV was a rot based ranged dmg dealer, imagine a affli lock but hunter, had its own unike playstyle and worked very well untill blizz reworked it to meele.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by kiramon View Post
    There's literally an entire game you can play if you want to play old surv
    so jsut beacuse classic is a thing that means we should ignore the mess that is survival on retail? i mean the specc is in such bad state and blizzard dont know what to do with it, not even the MSV players are happy with the new DF tree for surv, that says something.

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