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  1. #21
    I think the common response to that question involves man-made spherical objects formed out of crystalized hydrogendioxide and a certain hot and arid mythological underworld biome.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It's something that has annoyed me more and more as time has gone on. Even now when looking at the new patch i've come to the realization that im less excited for the raids and more annoyed by the new gem system, choreghast, and daily currency systems I am going to have to interact with for mythic.

    I enjoy wow's content I honestly do even after sixteen years of playing of it but its getting to the point that when I look at all the soft requirements needed to play mythic...well its wearing on me. It feels like there is a larger and larger investment on time i'm required to be bored with the game before I can enjoy it. I think I will finish SL but I don't think I have it in me to buy another expansion with the same systems even with blizz bucks.

    Is this just the future of the game? Hours upon hours of doing trivial dull content in order to get to the interesting parts? Is there any chance of going back to a pre legion model or are we just struck with this? Don't get me wrong I would even take a softer version of it like AP again im just burned out on grind X from Y content.
    They learned all the wrong lessons from WoD fiasco.

    They think rental systems is content and that has been their guiding principle since then. That guiding principle of rental systems as content runs into a brick wall when they can't balance all these clunky systems while ignoring the base core game and classes.

  3. #23
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Not to mention they totally f***ed the PVP system/vendors.
    Oh, you reminded me of Legion, when Ion had the gall of saying with a straight face that PvP vendors had been removed because "they were confusing for new players". Therefore, now that we have vendors back (are we supposed to be grateful for it btw? lol) I must conclude that either 1) Ion realised that he was full of !@#$, but still it took four !@#$ing years to admit it or 2) there are almost no new players, so nobody is going to get confused.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

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    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  4. #24
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    Progression on its own is fine, it's part of an MMO. It's more likely that the problem is that so many of the progression systems are funneling into the same thingpower progression, which itself is only meaningful in like two settings. Ergo, the game is funneling players into either M+ or raiding and the people that already do those are being inundated with extra requirements.

    What the devs should do is spread progression systems apart rather than stack them on top of each other. It's totally fine for power progression to come from systems with more interesting bonuses than just "+stats", but not every system needs to be exclusively about power. Transmog can be considered progression, but the "progression" comes from players designing and assembling their favorite sets. Earning gold is a form of progression that can involve many different activities. The cool thing about progression like these is that they are more player-driven and detached from the current patch or expansion. We need more support for systems like this, as well as more systems in general where players are encouraged to pursue their own goals.
    Last edited by SunspotAnims; 2021-06-12 at 09:50 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    Sure, I'll go along with that to some degree. Although, I'd consider most of that "character/gear power" which is pretty basic.

    "Borrowed" also implies that something was lost. Up until WOD we mostly "gained" spells/abilities and didn't really lose much. Although it was post-Legion where we really felt the pain of the "removal" of Artifact abilities / talents. To me this felt worse than the WOD/Legion ability prunes.

    Personally, I wish they would stop trying to duplicate Legion's success/systems. I think this has been their main problem. If they want to make "daring changes" to the next expansion of WoW, they should try and break away from the Legion mold and do something different. Otherwise if they want to play it safe, they should scrap the systems people don't like, and focus more on content (dungeons, raids, battlegrounds,etc.)
    honestly the biggest ability loss i've ever felt was when going from wotlk to cata. had lots of very cool/strong talents in wotlk that were gutted.

    but yeah these days it feels a lot more like a net loss rather than the gain some/lose some of the past.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Oh, you reminded me of Legion, when Ion had the gall of saying with a straight face that PvP vendors had been removed because "they were confusing for new players". Therefore, now that we have vendors back (are we supposed to be grateful for it btw? lol) I must conclude that either 1) Ion realised that he was full of !@#$, but still it took four !@#$ing years to admit it or 2) there are almost no new players, so nobody is going to get confused.
    Actually, I didn't mind Legion tbh. PVP Templates meant I could just queue on any character and get into the action. The random drops were also pretty good if I needed to do crap outside of Arena/RBG.

    The problem was when BFA came out and templates went away, we didn't have PVP Vendors. PVE or die == BAD
    And in SL it's a bit better but still not great (item level is gated by your rating -- wtf??? ) == Sorta bad

    PVP Gear in WOD was even across all skill levels = GOOD
    PVP Templates in Legion was even across all skill levels = GOOD

    Now we have gearing disparities in PVP (different tiers of PVP Gear based on your rank) across the population which doesn't do people on the lower end any favors. Especially since this gear *does* give you a boost in rated performance. Basically people get boosted, or they have to face an uphill battle at 1800 to beat players in the higher levels of gear. I know blizz makes $20 on each wow token so I could see why they like incentivizing boosts..... Hah

    I was Q'ing 2200-2500 most of Legion so maybe I have a skewed view on this, but I feel like I'm being pretty fair.
    Last edited by Frosteye; 2021-06-12 at 10:18 PM.

  7. #27
    The problem with wow is that developers are too lazy to develop and balance stuff that lasts longer than a patch. You put in all this effort that when you finally unlock it, it only lasts for a few months before its irrelevant.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    The problem with wow is that developers are too lazy to develop and balance stuff that lasts longer than a patch. You put in all this effort that when you finally unlock it, it only lasts for a few months before its irrelevant.
    I mean a lot of progression systems (mainly gear) have been like this since the inception of the game... Which is fine I guess.

    The gear grind isn't so bad if the underlying game content is fun.

  9. #29
    The game desperately needs a new class and faster development of new PROPER content in the form of extra dungeons and or mage-tower solo grinds or co-op grinds idc but make it hard. This needs to be done whilst a new expansion is already ongoing. Stop with the slow shit where we have to wait for a new expansion before anything TRULY meaningful is added.

    "Something you want to waste your time on" Asmongold (1897-202??)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    The problem with wow is that developers are too lazy to develop and balance stuff that lasts longer than a patch. You put in all this effort that when you finally unlock it, it only lasts for a few months before its irrelevant.
    i see this same arguement all the time, and people wonder why the game isnt balanced? should they magically just make it happen?

    heres a question - would you like an expac where you got a new row of talents and nothing else? just gear that you go throug in a patch. because THATS what you get when there is no borrowed power.

    imagine this: we keep artifacts fully powered after legion. then we keep nexck and essences after bfa. balance would be easy! lol


    game has been around much longer than anyone thought it would. you cant balance classes with 16 years worth of talents/powers/etc EVER.


    also, and my favorite thing - they can never remove something from the game. if they add something, people assume its always going to exist. so they add power and tell you immediately that you get it only for the xpac.

  11. #31
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    They learned all the wrong lessons from WoD fiasco.

    They think rental systems is content and that has been their guiding principle since then. That guiding principle of rental systems as content runs into a brick wall when they can't balance all these clunky systems while ignoring the base core game and classes.
    Post WoD rental systems (aka borrowed power) are akin to D3 seasonal modifiers, as it befits the ongoing Diablo-ification of the game. But someone in the dev team forgot that Diablo, and ARPGs in general, can only work if you are being showered with loot, which can occasionally be ubermegapowerful for the level of content you are doing - hence WF/TF. The big issue with SL is that everything that made WoW an ARPG (with a forced multiplayer component) stayed, except drops. ARPGs don't work if they are stingy with loot, as the devs of e.g. Path of Exile learned the hard way shortly after launch.

    Of course, the current drought is making things worse, but it at least allows everyone to see the flaws of the system. Or at least a few of them.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  12. #32
    prob not, cause its WoW's of stopping ability bloat....
    Member: Shadow Lands Alpha Club, Member since 4/9/2020

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    They learned all the wrong lessons from WoD fiasco.

    They think rental systems is content and that has been their guiding principle since then. That guiding principle of rental systems as content runs into a brick wall when they can't balance all these clunky systems while ignoring the base core game and classes.
    Players want new stuff with new expansions (understandably). Constantly adding stuff will lead to bloat and an eventual need to prune. The community reacted VERY badly to pruning.

    The solution to wanting new stuff but not wanting pruning is borrowed power. Something new for the expansion that will go away to be replaced by something else the next.

    If you don't want borrowed power in WoW you need to come up with a way to keep giving players new stuff without running into bloated design.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    i see this same arguement all the time, and people wonder why the game isnt balanced? should they magically just make it happen?

    heres a question - would you like an expac where you got a new row of talents and nothing else? just gear that you go throug in a patch. because THATS what you get when there is no borrowed power.

    imagine this: we keep artifacts fully powered after legion. then we keep nexck and essences after bfa. balance would be easy! lol


    game has been around much longer than anyone thought it would. you cant balance classes with 16 years worth of talents/powers/etc EVER.


    also, and my favorite thing - they can never remove something from the game. if they add something, people assume its always going to exist. so they add power and tell you immediately that you get it only for the xpac.
    To be frank I would be fine with an expansion with less rows of talents... I never get this fetish for super complex classes. Most of the player base doesn't use their basic rotation properly much less situational spells.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    i see this same arguement all the time, and people wonder why the game isnt balanced? should they magically just make it happen?

    heres a question - would you like an expac where you got a new row of talents and nothing else? just gear that you go throug in a patch. because THATS what you get when there is no borrowed power.

    imagine this: we keep artifacts fully powered after legion. then we keep nexck and essences after bfa. balance would be easy! lol


    game has been around much longer than anyone thought it would. you cant balance classes with 16 years worth of talents/powers/etc EVER.


    also, and my favorite thing - they can never remove something from the game. if they add something, people assume its always going to exist. so they add power and tell you immediately that you get it only for the xpac.
    Other games introduce systems that go forward into future expansions and stay relevant. When was the last time blizzard introduced something that went forward into the next expansion?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenJesus View Post
    Other games introduce systems that go forward into future expansions and stay relevant. When was the last time blizzard introduced something that went forward into the next expansion?
    Most games don't have a half a dozen expansions stacking system upon system. And those that do tend to feel bloated and overwhelming for new players.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  17. #37
    No, because these systems have been developed with years of data on player engagement, what keeps players playing, and it has been working for them ever since Legion.

    Legion? Stellar performance throughout. BfA? Broke a sales record, and same thing throughout. SL? Broke the record again and latest report was anything but a negative one for the game.

    So, I'm willing to bet that this design philosophy for the game is here to stay.

    I could handle it if it weren't for the class design, but alas... I won't be paying for both the letdown of the class gameplay, AND chores out the wazoo.
    You cannot in good conscience worship God, the Son and the Holy Spirit if you also worship Mammon. Capitalism is inherently evil.

  18. #38
    I think we will see an alternative power system for at least 10.0 since it would be worked on now.

  19. #39
    It will if they come up with another grinding system.

  20. #40
    No. Because it's the only way to keep players in the game now.

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