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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post
    No, because these systems have been developed with years of data on player engagement, what keeps players playing, and it has been working for them ever since Legion.

    Legion? Stellar performance throughout. BfA? Broke a sales record, and same thing throughout. SL? Broke the record again and latest report was anything but a negative one for the game.

    So, I'm willing to bet that this design philosophy for the game is here to stay.

    I could handle it if it weren't for the class design, but alas... I won't be paying for both the letdown of the class gameplay, AND chores out the wazoo.
    I mean... the sales record is digital sales... that isn't some amazingly hard record to break when you don't even make physical copies outside of a limited run of collector editions.

    Its doubtful any of those expansions broke overall sale records.

    Edit: It also wasn't overall digital sales either just speed of pre orders.

  2. #42
    Merely a Setback Queen of Hamsters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I mean... the sales record is digital sales... that isn't some amazingly hard record to break when you don't even make physical copies outside of a limited run of collector editions.

    Its doubtful any of those expansions broke overall sale records.

    Edit: It also wasn't overall digital sales either just speed of pre orders.
    The records count regardless of how you rationalize it.

    https://venturebeat.com/2020/12/08/w...k%20in%202012.

    Don't also forget the hint to them seeing numbers not seen in 10 years. No matter how you slice it, Legion, BfA and so far SL have been marked success stories coming off of WoD, and it is highly unlikely that they'll change shit so long as people keep paying.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No. Because it's the only way to keep players in the game now.
    If it's the only way, it is failing spectacularly, as far as I'm concerned. As a matter of fact I was unsubbed, and came back just to play BC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It's something that has annoyed me more and more as time has gone on. Even now when looking at the new patch i've come to the realization that im less excited for the raids and more annoyed by the new gem system, choreghast, and daily currency systems I am going to have to interact with for mythic.

    I enjoy wow's content I honestly do even after sixteen years of playing of it but its getting to the point that when I look at all the soft requirements needed to play mythic...well its wearing on me. It feels like there is a larger and larger investment on time i'm required to be bored with the game before I can enjoy it. I think I will finish SL but I don't think I have it in me to buy another expansion with the same systems even with blizz bucks.

    Is this just the future of the game? Hours upon hours of doing trivial dull content in order to get to the interesting parts? Is there any chance of going back to a pre legion model or are we just struck with this? Don't get me wrong I would even take a softer version of it like AP again im just burned out on grind X from Y content.
    So you just want to raid log because nothing else would matter for power progression?
    I think we had that somewhere in the past and it didn't work out very well for many players...

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias1212 View Post
    So you just want to raid log because nothing else would matter for power progression?
    I think we had that somewhere in the past and it didn't work out very well for many players...
    Do you mean tbc or wrath?

  6. #46
    I don't see how they can get rid of borrowed power. It seems to me that one of the core design parameters is to keep people playing, and what better way to do that than to create a problem that can only be solved by investing many hours into the game? Then you get the sunk cost fallacy and all that.

  7. #47
    I think current iteration is pretty much the best trade off between raidlogging and AP grind of Legion.

    I am a raider and I totally would not mind WoD setup where I can just raidlog much of the expansion, but I also recognize that many players need some else/more, so you can't just do another expansion like WoD where only meaningful thing is raid raid raid. Current iteration is pretty good, especially after they added 226 conduits to mythic raids. Anima is purely cosmetic and Renown 40 is on-the rails thing. The only thing I'd like them to consider is raiding offering Stygia as alternative for Maw for sockets. Maw sockets grind is the only thing I did not like about this expansion, as raider.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Do you mean tbc or wrath?
    Touché however in the modern version i meant wod.

    Tbc and Wrath worked with "only" gear because good gear was scarce and a lot harder to get.

    When blizz tried that for m+ and castle nathria... yeah.

  9. #49
    Bloodsail Admiral Skylarking's Avatar
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    It always seems like when blizzard gets something right, it turns out to be a fluke, and they have no idea what to do to build up on it because they don't know why it worked. Legion artifacts were a homerun. BfA... Whatever that sorry excuse of borrowed power was, disaster. Sl is just a straight up dumpster fire.

    They somehow keep making things worse.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Is this just the future of the game? Hours upon hours of doing trivial dull content in order to get to the interesting parts? Is there any chance of going back to a pre legion model or are we just struck with this? Don't get me wrong I would even take a softer version of it like AP again im just burned out on grind X from Y content.

    What is the alternative?
    1. More and more abilities = overly complicated rotations where each ability of itself contributes very little or else it would be broken = each ability becomes less and less relevant. Enhancement Shaman often suffered from this problem.
    2. regular pruning and removal of "core" abilities = many tears shed from people that have grown fond of a specific ability

    Blizzard decided - my interpretation - of getting rid of problem 1 and 2 at the same time by introducing expansion specific abilities/systems = people won't get so attached to them and if an ability seems to be a great success it can be re-used again.

    Blizzard also seems to be happy with the sales of expansions after they introduced this new way of shaking things up every expansion.

    While you aren't alone in your dislike for expansion specific systems, but it seems that more players prefer something new and fresh each expansion instead of the same again and again.

  11. #51
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Of course. They could be incredible stupid and shoot themselves in the foot. Wouldn't be the first time.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Is there any chance of going back to a pre legion model or are we just struck with this?
    I'm trying not to be rude, but the vaunted pre-legion model of game design was raid and log off.

    May it rot and burn in hell.

    Legion saved this game after it got incredibly stale during WoD, Cata and Mists (the dark years). At least back in Wrath and BC/Classic there was a greater emphasis on farming your consumables.

    These systems that allow you to progress your character meaningfully outside of the raid are the greatest addition to the game right next to Mythic+, which of course also debuted in Legion.

    I also disagree with your point of being forced to engage in these systems. I assure you it is not necessary to farm sockets and conduit upgrades to clear Mythic.
    Last edited by enigma77; 2021-06-13 at 03:21 PM.

  13. #53
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post

    Is this just the future of the game?
    If they were smart they would double down and make trivial content even more lucrative for character progression. The best indicator that the game will have broad or broader appeal is mythic raiders crying about forced content.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    If they were smart they would double down and make trivial content even more lucrative for character progression. The best indicator that the game will have broad or broader appeal is mythic raiders crying about forced content.
    I'm a Mythic raider and I love these systems. It's a shame they got rid of AP.

  15. #55
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    I'm a Mythic raider and I love these systems. It's a shame they got rid of AP.
    Fair enough. I should say the subset of mythic raiders who only want to raid log and cry about the rest of the game offering anything decent to other people.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #56
    I mean it would be great if raids and dungeons dropped stygia so you didn't have to do the Maw or [new daily zone] if you didn't want to.

    That could live perfectly harmoniously with a system where solo players could do [daily zone] and slowly upgrade their gear without having to raid or do dungeons.

    They are just obsessed with forcing people to do content they don't enjoy and it breeds an enormous amount of resentment from every part of the playerbase.

  17. #57
    Here's my two cents, get rid of borrowed power. Maybe make some of those systems purely cosmetic in nature letting players customize their personal look more. Add more talents. Use the freed up development time to pump out more content or more quickly. I never liked corruption, i never liked AP, and i certainly don't like the covenant/conduit system. With the exception of the cosmetic aspect.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by panda040 View Post
    Here's my two cents, get rid of borrowed power. Maybe make some of those systems purely cosmetic in nature letting players customize their personal look more. Add more talents. Use the freed up development time to pump out more content or more quickly. I never liked corruption, i never liked AP, and i certainly don't like the covenant/conduit system. With the exception of the cosmetic aspect.
    That's absolutely not how that works.

    Creating dungeons/raids takes significantly more effort than creating a bunch of passives/procs/abilities. You're not losing out on raid content due to borrowed power, get that idea out of your head.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Caprias1212 View Post
    Touché however in the modern version i meant wod.

    Tbc and Wrath worked with "only" gear because good gear was scarce and a lot harder to get.

    When blizz tried that for m+ and castle nathria... yeah.
    Gear is less scare in tbc then it is now arguably. One whole mythic run gives you a max of two pieces of gear, One heroic gives you roughly 5 in tbc.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post

    Just look at all the people willing to play Classic/TBC even though it's an old ass version of the game with really easy endgame content. Those versions of the game are very straightforward in terms of design and they're not fun in spite of their simplicity, but exactly because of it.
    A) im willing to bet the vast majority of people playing classic never played it when it was "new" so its half new to them.


    B) Classic is dead as fuck between patches because..... there is nothing to do. Exact same shit as retail. Replace world quests with daily quests. The hardcore people keep playing for the most part (same as retail) and the majority take breaks between patch cycles.

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