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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Fair enough. I should say the subset of mythic raiders who only want to raid log and cry about the rest of the game offering anything decent to other people.
    No, the raid loggers cry about the rest of the game having things they need to do.

    They don't care about all the other stuff that exists so long as it has no influence on their ability to raid log. Which AP and M+ massively interfered with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by panda040 View Post
    Here's my two cents, get rid of borrowed power. Maybe make some of those systems purely cosmetic in nature letting players customize their personal look more. Add more talents. Use the freed up development time to pump out more content or more quickly. I never liked corruption, i never liked AP, and i certainly don't like the covenant/conduit system. With the exception of the cosmetic aspect.
    None of this address the reason borrowed power exists, giving players power and abilities with a new expansion but not causing bloat.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  2. #62
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    No, the raid loggers cry about the rest of the game having things they need to do.

    They don't care about all the other stuff that exists so long as it has no influence on their ability to raid log. Which AP and M+ massively interfered with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    None of this address the reason borrowed power exists, giving players power and abilities with a new expansion but not causing bloat.
    They don't "need" to do any of it. They can aways still raid log. If that means they can't kill the boss well git good. Like this attitude is so ridiculous because it basically means the rest of the game would literally have to offer nothing in the way of significant character advancement because the minute any reward is compelling enough its forced. The only way to placate came them is to ruin the experience for other so fuck them they can and should be thrown right under the bus.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They don't "need" to do any of it. They can aways still raid log. If that means they can't kill the boss well git good. Like this attitude is so ridiculous because it basically means the rest of the game would literally have to offer nothing in the way of significant character advancement because the minute any reward is compelling enough its forced. The only way to placate came them is to ruin the experience for other so fuck them they can and should be thrown right under the bus.
    Oh, we can just not do it? God damn, why didn't I think of that?!? You're a genius!

    Please, if you have not experienced what it's like at the high-end don't try to involve yourself in discussions of the high-end. "JUST DON'T DO IT 4HED" is an argument that every ignorant schmuck on the internet has been using for years. It's just as dumb now as it always was.

    "Chores" weren't really a thing until Legion. The game was about raid logging and alts, for the most part. It was an overall design that the game thrived under for ~12 years before Legion. Casual players seemed just fine with it then, why would it be different now? Especially now that cosmetics are so important to the casual playerbase. There's tons of stuff like that they could add without causing unnecessary strain on the hardcore players.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Oh, we can just not do it? God damn, why didn't I think of that?!? You're a genius!

    Please, if you have not experienced what it's like at the high-end don't try to involve yourself in discussions of the high-end. "JUST DON'T DO IT 4HED" is an argument that every ignorant schmuck on the internet has been using for years. It's just as dumb now as it always was.

    "Chores" weren't really a thing until Legion. The game was about raid logging and alts, for the most part. It was an overall design that the game thrived under for ~12 years before Legion. Casual players seemed just fine with it then, why would it be different now? Especially now that cosmetics are so important to the casual playerbase. There's tons of stuff like that they could add without causing unnecessary strain on the hardcore players.
    No.

    He is completely right. Literally nobody is forcing you to do other stuff. And if you wish to play instance based lobby simulator then you simply picked a wrong game because even before, that was not an option (reps, dailies etc).
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    No.

    He is completely right. Literally nobody is forcing you to do other stuff. And if you wish to play instance based lobby simulator then you simply picked a wrong game because even before, that was not an option (reps, dailies etc).
    I admit I am curious... do you genuinely not see the change everyone else is talking about or do you simply lie to kick up the hornets nest?

    I find it hard to believe its simply ignorance at this point.

  6. #66
    Sounds like a game without progression (e.g., league of legends) would be more your thing. Stop trying to change the game I enjoy just because you got sick of doing the same thing. After 16 years it might be time for you to move on.
    Last edited by Zeons; 2021-06-14 at 04:02 AM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I admit I am curious... do you genuinely not see the change everyone else is talking about or do you simply lie to kick up the hornets nest?

    I find it hard to believe its simply ignorance at this point.
    I don't even know what are you trying to imply here dude but you clearly have some terrible memory.

    Not sure if you noticed but practically only you complain about this on forum. Far from "everyone" lol.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    It's something that has annoyed me more and more as time has gone on. Even now when looking at the new patch i've come to the realization that im less excited for the raids and more annoyed by the new gem system, choreghast, and daily currency systems I am going to have to interact with for mythic.

    I enjoy wow's content I honestly do even after sixteen years of playing of it but its getting to the point that when I look at all the soft requirements needed to play mythic...well its wearing on me. It feels like there is a larger and larger investment on time i'm required to be bored with the game before I can enjoy it. I think I will finish SL but I don't think I have it in me to buy another expansion with the same systems even with blizz bucks.

    Is this just the future of the game? Hours upon hours of doing trivial dull content in order to get to the interesting parts? Is there any chance of going back to a pre legion model or are we just struck with this? Don't get me wrong I would even take a softer version of it like AP again im just burned out on grind X from Y content.
    Give you 10/10 for that, since it is EXACTLY what drives me more and more away from the game. EXACTLY this. You spoke out of my mind.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    For some reason, the team working on WoW has become so incompetent or constrained that they are unable to design content that can stand on its own. They don't implement these systems because they make the game better. They're so scared of the possiblity that players "run out of things to do" that they design systems whose sole purpose is to keep you glued to the game at the expense of the enjoyment you'll get out of it. It also takes away from the other parts of the game as Blizzard seems to put a considerable amount of effort into fixing these things only to throw them in the trash after the expansion is over.

    Just look at all the people willing to play Classic/TBC even though it's an old ass version of the game with really easy endgame content. Those versions of the game are very straightforward in terms of design and they're not fun in spite of their simplicity, but exactly because of it.

    It's getting harder and harder to believe that Blizzard doesn't realize this. Here's my prediction: if they aren't getting rid of it in the next expansion in some kind of renaissance of the game, it's going to stay (which won't be long given the current trajectory of the game).
    incompetence is not (the sole) reason. the reason is this:

    GFX, design, sound, world, game engine coding... all that is needed for new „real“ content. and this is expensive and an investment. on the other side, „systems“ (like i.e. Azerite) are way cheaper. because they 95% just consists of database entries and simple UIs. ALL gear, stats, items, etc are DB entries. this means you need a UI designer and developer for some simple UI and some logic code, that changes DB entries. thats it. for real content you need world, sprites, engine, design... waaaay more ppl and investment.

    second reason is: „systems“ can be added to a feature list. the feature list sells your xpac. marketing would not be happy if your slogan is „more of the same - new raids, new dungeons, new world - thats it“. in short: you cant sell an xpac by doing good content the same way as with „cool new features“.

    that said, since wow is in milk-the-cow mode, Blizz tries to invest least possible while get the most out of it. thats why you see „systems“ instead of a lot of high quality content.

    sad but true.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2021-06-14 at 04:45 AM.

  9. #69
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Oh, we can just not do it? God damn, why didn't I think of that?!? You're a genius!

    Please, if you have not experienced what it's like at the high-end don't try to involve yourself in discussions of the high-end. "JUST DON'T DO IT 4HED" is an argument that every ignorant schmuck on the internet has been using for years. It's just as dumb now as it always was.

    "Chores" weren't really a thing until Legion. The game was about raid logging and alts, for the most part. It was an overall design that the game thrived under for ~12 years before Legion. Casual players seemed just fine with it then, why would it be different now? Especially now that cosmetics are so important to the casual playerbase. There's tons of stuff like that they could add without causing unnecessary strain on the hardcore players.
    I really don't give a shit what its like at the high end. if what you're suggesting is true and ill take your word for it then my answer still remains. Throw the "high end" under the fucking bus. Balancing literally the rest of the entire game to placate your desire to engage in that content and only that content with as little involvement and investment as possible is bad for the rest of us. Its literally arguing that the best reward scheme the game can offer people, in fact the same reward scheme that you get from lvl 1 all the way to end game is simple to good for others.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2021-06-14 at 04:48 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I really don't give a shit what its like at the high end. if what you're suggesting is true and ill take your word for it then my answer still remains. Throw the "high end" under the fucking bus. Balancing literally the rest of the entire game to placate your desire to engage in that content and only that content with as little involvement and investment as possible is bad for the rest of us. Its literally arguing that the best reward scheme the game can offer people, in fact the same reward scheme that you get from lvl 1 all the way to end game is simple to good for others.
    "We never paid any heed to the ancient prophecies...
    Like fools we clung to the old hatreds and fought as we had for generations.
    Until the day the sky rained fire and a new enemy came upon us.
    We stand now on the brink of destruction because the reign of chaos has come at last,"

    I wish I could understand your arguments... truly I do. The rest of the game isn't balanced and it never has been... why would it be? Do you understand what it even is your asking and like @kaminaris is your opinion only fueled by blind ego and ignorance?

    Why would you ever think the game outside of mythic is or needs to be balanced? What would be the purpose of doing so? What reward scheme from level one?

    You entire response seems like a nonsensical rant... Can you provide reasons even selfish ones to why you support such a system that doesn't revolve around some perverse pleasure that a game has slowly been changed over the years to isolate and turn off its original audience?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    "We never paid any heed to the ancient prophecies...
    Like fools we clung to the old hatreds and fought as we had for generations.
    Until the day the sky rained fire and a new enemy came upon us.
    We stand now on the brink of destruction because the reign of chaos has come at last,"

    I wish I could understand your arguments... truly I do. The rest of the game isn't balanced and it never has been... why would it be? Do you understand what it even is your asking and like @kaminaris is your opinion only fueled by blind ego and ignorance?

    Why would you ever think the game outside of mythic is or needs to be balanced? What would be the purpose of doing so? What reward scheme from level one?

    You entire response seems like a nonsensical rant... Can you provide reasons even selfish ones to why you support such a system that doesn't revolve around some perverse pleasure that a game has slowly been changed over the years to isolate and turn off its original audience?
    "blind ego and ignorance"

    Your entire rant is nonsense, just like in every other thread. WoW was never balanced, if anything we have best balance since a long time.
    Needless to say its never going to be balanced.

    "Alternative power systems" existed for very long, just in different forms (reps, badges, leggos etc), there was always something to farm outside of raids with exception of WoD that we all know how it turned out.

    Just because you don't acknowledge it doesn't mean it didn't exist. You can't understand his arguments because you have extremely narrow horizon and/or horse blinders so you don't understand why your "ideal wow" would lead to it's destruction.

    Difference is that I am fully aware that my ideal WoW (gear only cosmetic, everyone is equal, pure challenge etc) would be a fucking disaster that would lead to garbage quality. You don't. Which is mind boggling since this happened twice, WoD and now in SL. You should know by now.

    You want to have 1 raid per year with 5 copypasted bosses. Thats where it's going to lead.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    "blind ego and ignorance"

    Your entire rant is nonsense, just like in every other thread. WoW was never balanced, if anything we have best balance since a long time.
    Needless to say its never going to be balanced.

    "Alternative power systems" existed for very long, just in different forms (reps, badges, leggos etc), there was always something to farm outside of raids with exception of WoD that we all know how it turned out.

    Just because you don't acknowledge it doesn't mean it didn't exist. You can't understand his arguments because you have extremely narrow horizon and/or horse blinders so you don't understand why your "ideal wow" would lead to it's destruction.

    Difference is that I am fully aware that my ideal WoW (gear only cosmetic, everyone is equal, pure challenge etc) would be a fucking disaster that would lead to garbage quality. You don't. Which is mind boggling since this happened twice, WoD and now in SL. You should know by now.

    You want to have 1 raid per year with 5 copypasted bosses. Thats where it's going to lead.
    WoW has always been at least somewhat balanced and has multiple changes each tier to attempt to balance the game. The most recent and obvious example is blizzard breaking hunters. Why I use words like ignorance, arrogance and blind ego to point out the logical fallacies in your arguments is because its clear your utterly out of your depth but desperate to speak on a topic you feel affects you. How it does I haven't the faintest idea but your convinced it does.

    Do you honestly believe anyone here is talking about badges and old reputations? Do you have any grasp about what arguing in good faith even is? I suppose we could argue legendaries but the honest truth on that subject is current legendary items are simply blizzard cutting out class power that should be awarded on level cap to become but another grind to try and save their failed experiment with new content.

    You also try to appear like rather then blindly lashing out you have some enlighten view... no one isn't acknowledging your terrible points they are simply deconstructing them and then dismissing them. You also return to the argument that wow classic to wod was in your words " A fucking disaster"

    Such hubris such folly...

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    WoW has always been at least somewhat balanced
    If you started playing in Legion maybe. Clearly you have terrible memory and there is no point in continuing discussion if you think 100% difference if "somewhat balanced".
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    If you started playing in Legion maybe. Clearly you have terrible memory and there is no point in continuing discussion if you think 100% difference if "somewhat balanced".
    Now your desperately nit picking to try and maintain any credibility... Your right there is always balance issues to different extents I believe Shard of Woe was the worst imbalance the game had.

    You still don't have any argument and honestly I am just going to hammer that point home again and again, over and over in a desperate bid to move the argument past your outrageous position.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Now your desperately nit picking to try and maintain any credibility... Your right there is always balance issues to different extents I believe Shard of Woe was the worst imbalance the game had.

    You still don't have any argument and honestly I am just going to hammer that point home again and again, over and over in a desperate bid to move the argument past your outrageous position.
    There is no point in arguing when you are completely wrong in first sentence. 100% difference is not "somewhat". So please don't talk about credibility, you either did not play this game before WoD or you have some terrible memory. Back in MoP we had specs who were able to deal twice as much as lower tiered specs.

    Arguments are all above, just because you chose to ignore them doesn't mean they stopped existing, here have a link:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53230899
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    incompetence is not (the sole) reason. the reason is this:

    GFX, design, sound, world, game engine coding... all that is needed for new „real“ content. and this is expensive and an investment. on the other side, „systems“ (like i.e. Azerite) are way cheaper. because they 95% just consists of database entries and simple UIs. ALL gear, stats, items, etc are DB entries. this means you need a UI designer and developer for some simple UI and some logic code, that changes DB entries. thats it. for real content you need world, sprites, engine, design... waaaay more ppl and investment.

    second reason is: „systems“ can be added to a feature list. the feature list sells your xpac. marketing would not be happy if your slogan is „more of the same - new raids, new dungeons, new world - thats it“. in short: you cant sell an xpac by doing good content the same way as with „cool new features“.

    that said, since wow is in milk-the-cow mode, Blizz tries to invest least possible while get the most out of it. thats why you see „systems“ instead of a lot of high quality content.

    sad but true.
    Yeah, I don't disagree with you. But Blizzard at this point is still probably suffering from brain drain as they lost many of their senior devs, pay below their competitors and there's also this:
    Despite the attempts to shelter core game development, developers have felt the impact. With less support from Blizzard’s esports and community sections, IGN has heard stories of Blizzard devs having to pick up the slack by helping out with events or writing patch notes. One way or another, everyone has felt the cuts around Blizzard.
    It reeks of mismanagement and incompetence.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    True.. I don't know maybe im just finally getting older but its harder and harder for me to justify spending my time in a game that gets fun rather then one that is fun from start to finish.

    I still enjoy the core of wow but the layers upon layers I have to peel to get to it... well have you heard the old saying the juice isn't worth the squeeze?
    Try playing TBC. Much better then original and hella better then retail.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Is this just the future of the game? Hours upon hours of doing trivial dull content in order to get to the interesting parts? Is there any chance of going back to a pre legion model or are we just struck with this? Don't get me wrong I would even take a softer version of it like AP again im just burned out on grind X from Y content.
    let me preface this by saying my 'insight' (such as it is) on the state of the game is predicated on the notion that the fundamental core problem with WoW is that it has no post end-game character progression that isn't tied to ilevel.
    this is what 'borrowed power' is, fundamentally - a character progression system that isn't tied to ilevel.

    with that in mind i'd say the answer no, but i don't blame the devs, i blame the players - because it was the unending wall of anus-prolapsing crying that lead them away from even considering long term power systems.
    the constant lamenting people do forums about how an expansion is 'alt unfriendly' because it takes a week or two for a new character to be max geared and mythic raid ready, or you have to spend a couple days farming a currency, is why we'll never have long term character progression.

    on the flip side of that, the logic presented as to why they removed the talent system in the first place (that there was a 'right' talent build and any other build was pointless) is still present, and as much as it's nice to imagine a world wherein 120+ builds (12 classes, 3 specs each, 1-3 viable talent trees per spec) is possible, it's just not realistic.

    so, an open-ended talent system isn't viable. long term power isn't viable. the only other option you have is either no character progression whatsoever that isn't tied to ilevel, or power progression that resets on a regular basis.
    as i said before this is constrained by the players, not due to some kind of issue with the devs.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    No, the raid loggers cry about the rest of the game having things they need to do.

    They don't care about all the other stuff that exists so long as it has no influence on their ability to raid log. Which AP and M+ massively interfered with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    None of this address the reason borrowed power exists, giving players power and abilities with a new expansion but not causing bloat.
    well in TBC as a lock i only got like 2 new powers not a big deal.... maybe a after a few expacs they just need to prune again?

  20. #80
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeons View Post
    Sounds like a game without progression (e.g., league of legends) would be more your thing. Stop trying to change the game I enjoy just because you got sick of doing the same thing. After 16 years it might be time for you to move on.
    Sounds like someone is throwing random buzzwords. You are sorely wrong if you think that LoL (or any other MOBA for that matter) is "instant gratification" lmfao.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Yeah, I don't disagree with you. But Blizzard at this point is still probably suffering from brain drain as they lost many of their senior devs, pay below their competitors and there's also this:

    Despite the attempts to shelter core game development, developers have felt the impact. With less support from Blizzard’s esports and community sections, IGN has heard stories of Blizzard devs having to pick up the slack by helping out with events or writing patch notes. One way or another, everyone has felt the cuts around Blizzard.

    It reeks of mismanagement and incompetence.
    That's why I always chuckle a little inside every time I read one of those s**lls and their BuT NoBOdY In DeV tEAmZ wAs F1rEd line. It's like they've never worked in a huge company, where the work of fired personnel inevitably ends up being falling on the shoulders of those who remain.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

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