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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    However, it's possible Medivh would have had more luck rallying the Alliance (or, in the case it never formed, the human nations in general) if Lothar still lived and Khadgar was still present.
    Before the events of Warcraft III, there would be a lot of change to the timeline and especially regarding Medivh. We know he's under the influence of Sargeras even before being born. What would be Sargeras' plan if Medivh failed to bring the Orcs to Azeroth through the Dark Portal? What's the next thing he could have done?

    My guess is on trying to corrupt other races, especially humans since they're pretty prone to it. Maybe not by fel magic, but it's just easy to create conflict. At this point in time, most human kingdoms are devided and don't trust each other. Kingdoms like Alterac and Stromgarde just hated each other. Even Genn Greymane didn't believe in the alliance of kingdoms during the first and second war, only sending gilnean troops to keep the trade relationships going with other kingdoms. Without a large and foreign enemy like the orcs, there is little doubt an alliance would never be created. Sargeras would probably use Medivh to corrupt cities like Dalaran from within, maybe work with Dreadlords to instigate chaos in their ranks.

    I don't think there are races prone to fel corruption like the Orcs on Azeroth. Maybe the Trolls, as they're known for their Berserking ability. I can imagine Sargeras/Medivh being able to manipulate Trolls beliefs in a Loa that would make them take on demon blood (or something similar) to enslave them with fel magic. But while it could be a possibility, I don't see that happening on the same scale as the Orcs because their situation would be really different. Troll aren't driven my combat and war like the Orcs are, so I don't think the same thing could happen.

    Without the orcs invading Azeroth, I think the timeline would change drastically. It's very probably the Eastern Kingdoms would be heavily controlled by human kingdoms, expanding a lot more in all regions. It's probable the human kingdoms would have enough ressources to help the High Elves crush the forest Trolls once and for all, securing all of the northern part of the continent. No wars means also a lot of things: no Defias brotherhood as Stormwind never gets destroyed, but also no Silver Hand (and a lot less paladins) as they were a direct response to the orcish invasion and the rise of Death Knights. Characters like Turalyon don't rise to be heroes and inspire the forming of the Alliance. Khadgar probably doesn't kill Medivh, doesn't age, and doesn't become the new Gardian in the future.

    It's possible Sargeras and Kil'jaeden could still put into motion their plan to create the Lich King, and maybe still use Ner'zul trapped into the armor. Frostmourne would still exist but is it possible Arthas' destiny would not be the same? Arthas wouldn't have grew up in a worn torn kingdom and, probably, wouldn't have the need to be trained as a paladin (if that order even existed). Arthas was arrogant and self-righteous even before getting his hands on Frostmourne, wich, without a war, would probably push him more into politics than anything else, especially if other human kingdoms were still around and fighting with Lordaeron. In the event of the plague coming to the Eastern Kingdoms, it's probable the story would unfold the same way, because Arthas would still do anything to protect his kingdoms. But would Stratholme end up different? This is the turning point of Arthas' story. Any drastic change in his life until that point could make him make a different decision.

    A lot of other events could change a lot without the orcs (but it's not really about the orcs but much more about the wars their invasion created), and the changes get bigger and bigger when this alternative timeline progresses.

  2. #22
    Despite big assumptions here, the truth is we don't know. But, it wouldn't be peaceful. Also, the Burning Legion was defeated with WoD and Legion (presumably for all dimensions as we defeated them in the nether), they probably wouldn't even factor in AU azeroth.

    So... i guess old gods would be the threat. The Jailor would still be a thing too... but i guess we are taking care of that for them too.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    It was flat out stated in TBC, in the Black Morass dungeon, that without the orcs to shape Azeroth's history, particularly leading to the formation of the Alliance, and then standing alongside them, that the Legion would've effortlessly conquered and destroyed Azeroth as they did so many other worlds.
    Ah , so blizzard essentially declared that the destruction oft he orcs was necessary to save Azeroth. Just like how they wrote that the sundering and first legion invasion still had to happen when Ronin and Krasus go back, - but to me that always just sounded like an excuse not to have to re-write their history to allow a time travel gimmick to explain the story, rather than any real relevance. While you could still essentially write a completely different story anyway in an AU, but Blizzard has also given the keys within the current continuum to allow a very different fate for the AU Azeroth

    They have only ensured our Azeroth (our MU) would not have survived without the orcs, but AU Azeroth is anyone's guess. The legion get destroyed in ALL realities, so MU Azeroth's victory ends them in all realities.. in the time line, the Legion's defeat happens in AU's timeline around the time the orcs would have started invading Azeroth. Therefore being destroyed in our MU, they wouldn't have been able to finish their attack on Azeroth. AU Azeroth would never have had a WC1, 2 or 3.


    Now, I think the main points would be if the night elves discovered the threat was over, it could significantly change things on Kalimdor. EK would probably be unchanged and only have domestic affairs. The biggest thing would be resolving Medivh's power - he would have lost hte Sargeras prseence inside him, what would he do? He or his mother i assume would probably be able to let the kaldorei and aspects know of what happened if Elune doesn't already share.

    However the SL plot, the old gods plots too they can still happen.. however the old gods relied on the chaos caused by the legion. That still leaves the jailer's plans - would he used another world to carry out his plot? Or does what happen in SL also transcend all realities, meaning our efforts there woudl affect AU azeroth also. Probably all AU Azeroth would have to deal with is the old gods.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by haiyken View Post
    Before the events of Warcraft III, there would be a lot of change to the timeline and especially regarding Medivh. We know he's under the influence of Sargeras even before being born. What would be Sargeras' plan if Medivh failed to bring the Orcs to Azeroth through the Dark Portal? What's the next thing he could have done?

    My guess is on trying to corrupt other races, especially humans since they're pretty prone to it. Maybe not by fel magic, but it's just easy to create conflict. At this point in time, most human kingdoms are devided and don't trust each other. Kingdoms like Alterac and Stromgarde just hated each other. Even Genn Greymane didn't believe in the alliance of kingdoms during the first and second war, only sending gilnean troops to keep the trade relationships going with other kingdoms. Without a large and foreign enemy like the orcs, there is little doubt an alliance would never be created. Sargeras would probably use Medivh to corrupt cities like Dalaran from within, maybe work with Dreadlords to instigate chaos in their ranks.

    I don't think there are races prone to fel corruption like the Orcs on Azeroth. Maybe the Trolls, as they're known for their Berserking ability. I can imagine Sargeras/Medivh being able to manipulate Trolls beliefs in a Loa that would make them take on demon blood (or something similar) to enslave them with fel magic. But while it could be a possibility, I don't see that happening on the same scale as the Orcs because their situation would be really different. Troll aren't driven my combat and war like the Orcs are, so I don't think the same thing could happen.

    Without the orcs invading Azeroth, I think the timeline would change drastically. It's very probably the Eastern Kingdoms would be heavily controlled by human kingdoms, expanding a lot more in all regions. It's probable the human kingdoms would have enough ressources to help the High Elves crush the forest Trolls once and for all, securing all of the northern part of the continent. No wars means also a lot of things: no Defias brotherhood as Stormwind never gets destroyed, but also no Silver Hand (and a lot less paladins) as they were a direct response to the orcish invasion and the rise of Death Knights. Characters like Turalyon don't rise to be heroes and inspire the forming of the Alliance. Khadgar probably doesn't kill Medivh, doesn't age, and doesn't become the new Gardian in the future.

    It's possible Sargeras and Kil'jaeden could still put into motion their plan to create the Lich King, and maybe still use Ner'zul trapped into the armor. Frostmourne would still exist but is it possible Arthas' destiny would not be the same? Arthas wouldn't have grew up in a worn torn kingdom and, probably, wouldn't have the need to be trained as a paladin (if that order even existed). Arthas was arrogant and self-righteous even before getting his hands on Frostmourne, wich, without a war, would probably push him more into politics than anything else, especially if other human kingdoms were still around and fighting with Lordaeron. In the event of the plague coming to the Eastern Kingdoms, it's probable the story would unfold the same way, because Arthas would still do anything to protect his kingdoms. But would Stratholme end up different? This is the turning point of Arthas' story. Any drastic change in his life until that point could make him make a different decision.

    A lot of other events could change a lot without the orcs (but it's not really about the orcs but much more about the wars their invasion created), and the changes get bigger and bigger when this alternative timeline progresses.

    Ah but the human conflict is orchestrated by Deathwing, he jerely uses teh orcs that are already around to further his goals, he'd have continued another way without them.

    Medivh would have tried to use the humans to execute his plans, control them and build them up into a strong enough force to overcome the night elves and access the power of the well of eternity, however our defeat of the Legion in MU and Sargeras' subsequent imprisonment ensures their defeat across all realities.

    The only major fight for AU Azeroth would be Deathwing and the Old gods

  4. #24
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    No orcs, no Alliance. Lot's of potential infighting, easy pickings for Legion when they arrive again.
    Pretty much. Without an enemy force to unite again, it would have been like Game of Thrones, but with Season 8 characters.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Pretty much. Without an enemy force to unite again, it would have been like Game of Thrones, but with Season 8 characters.
    It's tough to weigh off, on one side the Horde wouldn't be able to help fight off the cosmic baddies, but on the other, we wouldn't lose any soldiers to the Horde either, i think that in the face of global emergencies like the Legion or the old gods, even the fractious kingdoms that formed the Alliance because of the orcs would join forces anyway, it's not like a bunch of orcs would be the only thing to make those kingdoms think "Maybe we'll do better if we fight together"...

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    but you could also argue because of the orcs, Azeroth is a lot weaker.. the 3rd war decimated the human, and both elven populations drastically, they'd be much stronger without the losses incurred from Wc1 through to WC3
    how many times have we heard the story that azeroth is stronger because of the conflict between horde/alliance now? 2-3 times i think?

    the elves at their population height (just before war of ancients) were decadent lazy bums with no military to speak off. why? because they had no competition they didn't need a strong military, just some vermin control. and as a result of that the legion invasion had zero resistance for a long time.

    also elves are immune to decimation. they have been decimated (well more than decimated, decimate is only 10% pop loss) like 5 or 6 times by now and it's never slowed them down. orcs/humans at least have a okay reproduction rate to take that kind of casualties.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2021-06-13 at 09:48 AM.

  7. #27
    The Unstoppable Force
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    This question has been answered time and time again. Both in game and outside the game.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    However the SL plot, the old gods plots too they can still happen.. however the old gods relied on the chaos caused by the legion. That still leaves the jailer's plans - would he used another world to carry out his plot? Or does what happen in SL also transcend all realities, meaning our efforts there woudl affect AU azeroth also. Probably all AU Azeroth would have to deal with is the old gods.
    I think this is a clear issue of events becoming unpredictable the more you progress on the timeline. It's very easy to speculate on the immediate effect of the Orcs not arriving on Azeroth, but the ripple effect on future events is just to big to imagine.

    For example, people think that without the Orcs the Ahn'Qiraj War is automatically lost, because without the Orcs there is no Horde. But I would argue that's not true because we know for a fact that the Night Elves and the Dragonflights alone were able to fight back the Qiraji back in the War of the Shifting Sands a millennium before. Even without the Orcs, we already know that the Night Elves have close relationships with the Taurens. It's also possible that, without the Trolls being part of the Horde, Night Elves would reach out to them for help in fighting the Qiraji and C'thun, as we know they barely fight with each other on Kalimdor. During the Ahn'Qiraj War, Saurfaug was able to inspire and lead both the Alliance and the Horde to crush the ennemy, but it's more than probable that another strong leader would emerge from the different races to lead them to victory.

    And if we go even further in the timeline and talk about N'Zoth invasion, it was clearly enabled by Sargeras stabbing of the planet. Would the sabbing even occur without the Orcs on Azeroth? If we think about it, Sargeras stabbed the planet because at one point Thrall gave Garrosh his pride back when meeting him in Nagrand back in TBC. By doing that, Thrall caused Garrosh to rise as a military leader within the Horde, then warchief, culminating in the Siege of Orgrimmar. Garrosh's escape in Alternate Draenor is what enable a new Gul'dan to rise to power, ultimately travel to Main Azeroth and facilitate a new Legion invasion in the Broken Isles. Campaign on Argus. Sabbing of the planet. All of this chain of events isn't possible without the first orcish invasion, without Thrall being born on Azeroth. And I'm not even talking about Illidan and the Sargerite Keystone, becaue it makes this chain of events so much more intricate.

    Simply said, it's just impossible to predict how the story could evolve in a parallel universe with that big of a change. So many events are connected, it's just too much.

    I would add that I personally dislike the "transcent all realities" concept for both the Legion and the Shadowlands, because I just don't think it works at all with the idea of parallel realities they introduced with WoD. I think it just breaks the story and rules of the universe completely, and, as we can see, makes thinking about alternate realities almost impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    Ah but the human conflict is orchestrated by Deathwing, he jerely uses teh orcs that are already around to further his goals, he'd have continued another way without them.

    Medivh would have tried to use the humans to execute his plans, control them and build them up into a strong enough force to overcome the night elves and access the power of the well of eternity, however our defeat of the Legion in MU and Sargeras' subsequent imprisonment ensures their defeat across all realities.

    The only major fight for AU Azeroth would be Deathwing and the Old gods
    I think you're right.

    I've went back to read about that because I couldn't remember what was Deathwing's role during the first wars. From what I understand, he woke up because the Dark Portal opened, so he probably wouldn't have been in the picture yet if Medivh didn't do it in this reality. Admitting Deathwing had still awoken, it looks like most of his actions were very tied to the orcs being there at first. First by creating chaos between the human kingdoms to facilitate the Orcs progression against a weaken Stormwind, then by literally living amongst the Blackrock Orcs. Later he was using the Dragon Soul to help Orcs enslave the red Dragonflight, escape to Draenor with the help of Ner'Zhul, etc.

    I do agree that Deathwing would probably still creating conflict within the human kingdoms even if the Orcs weren't there, because after all the "orc stuff" it's what he did anyway, but I guess his job wouldn't be as easy, or at least different. I wonder if political chaos would be a goal for the Old Gods controlling him. It's interesting!

    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    This question has been answered time and time again. Both in game and outside the game.
    Are we still able to have some fun and talk about it here? I think it's interesting and I like all of the things other people are sharing, their point of view and how it differs from mine.
    Last edited by haiyken; 2021-06-13 at 10:14 AM.

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    It's tough to weigh off, on one side the Horde wouldn't be able to help fight off the cosmic baddies, but on the other, we wouldn't lose any soldiers to the Horde either, i think that in the face of global emergencies like the Legion or the old gods, even the fractious kingdoms that formed the Alliance because of the orcs would join forces anyway, it's not like a bunch of orcs would be the only thing to make those kingdoms think "Maybe we'll do better if we fight together"...
    Whatever is left of them at that point anyway. We just don't know when the next Legion invasion would have happened in that case. Still the time of the third war?

  10. #30
    Without Orcs, Humans would have been corrupted either by the Legion or by the Old Gods or by the Nathrezim. And humans would be the downfall of Azeroth.
    Don't fall to the illusion that Humans are the paragons of virtue. They are surely not.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    how many times have we heard the story that azeroth is stronger because of the conflict between horde/alliance now? 2-3 times i think?

    the elves at their population height (just before war of ancients) were decadent lazy bums with no military to speak off. why? because they had no competition they didn't need a strong military, just some vermin control. and as a result of that the legion invasion had zero resistance for a long time.

    also elves are immune to decimation. they have been decimated (well more than decimated, decimate is only 10% pop loss) like 5 or 6 times by now and it's never slowed them down. orcs/humans at least have a okay reproduction rate to take that kind of casualties.
    I don’t follow that logic. If the conflict of the orcs made them strong , why won’t the conflict of the legion do the same?

    It’s not like they are without power toi?

    Didn’t the Kaldorei face the same thing. On top of the world stewarding a peaceful Azeroth, no conflict after dealing with the trolls a few thousand years in the past. Priestess and advancement. When the legion comes. These pacifist elves fight and eventually win against the seemingly impossible. But then their empire is described as legendary. Their advancement, their power, their intellect. Top notch.


    AU without the orca still has night elves who’ve beeen in battle mode doing the hard life in Kalimdor. Still has demon Hunter ems. Their lives far from the cushioned comforts of their former empire or the grandeur of Quel’thalas.

    The elves that rise to fight the orca in Wc2 aren’t written as weak and helpless and are successful off the bat against this very well trained vigilant marauding group aided by trolls. Because the elves have power.

    The sunwell is an impregnable defender, it took the betrayal of Dark’han to allow Arthas access. Meanwhile on Kalimdor the Night elves are immortal. They have a well they don’t use directly, but the empowered Nordrassil fuels their protection thanks to the blessings which are sustained by the power of the well that sustains the tree.

    They may not have used their arcane Mage skills but they have their Elune powers and nature powers with enhanced bodies and life. That’s not adding the possibility of Nightwell empowered Nightborne joining the fight. They only side with the Legion thanks to Gul’dans ultimatum which wouldn’t happen here.

    The elves on both continents would be very hard to break and would not have been weakened by the losses of Wc2 and 3 - Quel’thalas was devastated by Arthas and the night elves lost both a lot of lives and their immortal power. They’d still have both.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Whatever is left of them at that point anyway. We just don't know when the next Legion invasion would have happened in that case. Still the time of the third war?
    It's all conjecture, of course, but their invasion might have been delayed if the Orcs never went through the dark portal...

    Again, it's hard to determine, both Horde and Alliance should logically be out of able-bodied soldiers before the end of Wrath (Not enough time has passed to recover population since Vanilla, although the first three wars would have all but depleted both sides on their own), but both sides are still recruiting soldiers... from somewhere.

  13. #33
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    So, anyone ever thought of what AU Azeroth would be like? the orcs never made it to Azeroth, how do you think things would have turned out?
    It was already explained what would have happened.

    The human kingdoms would kill each other, because there was not an common enemy like the horde.

    Without the orcs, taurens would be exterminated by the quilboar and the centaurs, the darkspear by the murlocs, there would be no horde or alliance to fight in the third war helping the night elves, they would Lose and the legion would conquer everything.

    Plus, without Broxxigar the night elves would had lost in the first legion invasion

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I don’t follow that logic. If the conflict of the orcs made them strong , why won’t the conflict of the legion do the same?

    It’s not like they are without power toi?

    Didn’t the Kaldorei face the same thing. On top of the world stewarding a peaceful Azeroth, no conflict after dealing with the trolls a few thousand years in the past. Priestess and advancement. When the legion comes. These pacifist elves fight and eventually win against the seemingly impossible. But then their empire is described as legendary. Their advancement, their power, their intellect. Top notch.
    it only cost them 90% of their population, aid from gods/dragons/all other races and something like 50% of the landmass of the planet to achieve a pyrrhic victory.

    a cost only a tiny bit higher than both later legion invasions that happened when the world was used to constant conflict.

    it's probably fair to say the war was won _despite_ the elves.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    It was already explained what would have happened.

    The human kingdoms would kill each other, because there was not an common enemy like the horde.

    Without the orcs, taurens would be exterminated by the quilboar and the centaurs, the darkspear by the murlocs, there would be no horde or alliance to fight in the third war helping the night elves, they would Lose and the legion would conquer everything.

    Plus, without Broxxigar the night elves would had lost in the first legion invasion
    Ddin't the night elves win the first invasion without Rhonin, krasus or Broxigar? Isn't the rise of the infiinte tied to the legion, and orc intereference in the first place meaning there woudl be no need for a disturbed timeline to be repaired there. And without Broxigar, wouldn't someone else have sufficed?

    Also sdo you think the Tauren and Darkspear are necessary with a much stronger human and elven force - remember they would not have been decimated.

    Also would the elgion even exist, they are destroyed in all realities in the MU, that event happens shortly after the AU orcs would have first touched based in Azeroth, but their Dark portal is destroyed, and we beat them in AU draenor, 2 years later in their timeline the legion is destroyed in all realities, meaning there is no legion attack for Azeroth who never received orcs to worry about, in AU Azeroth's timeline, the Black morass still stands, no Stormwind burning, no 2nd war, no plague and undeath, no legion driving any of that.

    Are the orcs vital then to Ahn Qiraj or Ulduar? considering you'd still have immortal night elves, dragon aspects to call on potentially Kalimdor trolls too to fight them.

    The biggest threats would be Deathwing and the old gods, and you'd have to write a very different story with no extra dimensional enemies. There would potentially still be demons, but no organised demonic legion, would the Nathrezim be pulling the strings for the Jailer then? Or is the Jailer's defeat also all realities.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    It's all conjecture, of course, but their invasion might have been delayed if the Orcs never went through the dark portal...

    Again, it's hard to determine, both Horde and Alliance should logically be out of able-bodied soldiers before the end of Wrath (Not enough time has passed to recover population since Vanilla, although the first three wars would have all but depleted both sides on their own), but both sides are still recruiting soldiers... from somewhere.
    I wish we had more information about the population numbers on Azeroth in the lore. It would help make sense with this issue but I think Blizzard would rather not adress it.

    I think the population has to be very young overall, especially in the human kingdoms. We need to keep in mind that the First War was only 34~ years ago, and so many people died then, and since then. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of soldiers right now were underaged and it's probably not surprising that Anduin, as a very young king, has a lot of support from his people.

    I do agree that it's very surprising that they're still able to recruit anybody for their wars

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellobolis View Post
    it only cost them 90% of their population, aid from gods/dragons/all other races and something like 50% of the landmass of the planet to achieve a pyrrhic victory.

    a cost only a tiny bit higher than both later legion invasions that happened when the world was used to constant conflict.

    it's probably fair to say the war was won _despite_ the elves.
    More than fair to say winning the war was impossible without the elves. they are the story's key to defeating the Legion, or main key. However could victories against the old gods, or deathwing happen without the elves?

    Would they happen without the humans too?

    or can we remove the orcs

    Or shall we conclude that Elves, humans and orcs are the core essential races necessary to achieving those victories. Without any one of the 3 victory would not have occurred. The story ofc has the eradication of the elves attempted several times. Also the main thrust of WC2 and 3 is the eradication of the humans.

    Would be interesting to see a plot hatched to eradicate the orcs

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by cuafpr View Post
    Legion would have taken over the first time then game over.....
    the orcs were pretty much part of the legion when they came into azeroth so without the orcs then the legion wouldn't have had an army to invade in the first place

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Wangming's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticx View Post
    It's all conjecture, of course, but their invasion might have been delayed if the Orcs never went through the dark portal...

    Again, it's hard to determine, both Horde and Alliance should logically be out of able-bodied soldiers before the end of Wrath (Not enough time has passed to recover population since Vanilla, although the first three wars would have all but depleted both sides on their own), but both sides are still recruiting soldiers... from somewhere.
    That is a whole lot of can of worms. First question is, would the ununited Kingdoms start fighting each other without a common enemy. And if yes, would enough of them remain by the time the Legion comes to take over.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    More than fair to say winning the war was impossible without the elves. they are the story's key to defeating the Legion, or main key. However could victories against the old gods, or deathwing happen without the elves?

    Would they happen without the humans too?

    or can we remove the orcs

    Or shall we conclude that Elves, humans and orcs are the core essential races necessary to achieving those victories. Without any one of the 3 victory would not have occurred. The story ofc has the eradication of the elves attempted several times. Also the main thrust of WC2 and 3 is the eradication of the humans.
    yes the elves were needed for victory, but they key of the story was getting them to get their act together. so much less could have been lost if they had gotten their act together faster, or even had had their act together before the legion arrived.

    which is exactly the point, they had no reason to have their act together.


    the horde vs the alliance conflict leads to much stronger and bigger standing armies than the alternative: the individual human kingdoms had some conflict but never that much. the individual orc clans had infighting but never to the level of total war.
    Last edited by Hellobolis; 2021-06-13 at 11:35 AM.

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