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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    i mean, you can eprsonally think that, but literally, goes against with common sense and the official lore.



    None of this would have stopped the Legion later on:

    - Red dragons, like other dragons would not came to help anyway
    - Raising the tomb had no part on the RoC invasion
    - without the scourge no human faction would go to Kalindor hearing Medivh, besides, Kil'jaden could ahve used anything to create and developt the scourge, someone who could not betray then and actually do the job
    - Paladins or elves again, would not partake on the ar in kalindor.
    - Cenarius was killed by some orcs, he would barely do any difference

    Of course that is ignoring the fact that the humans would devour themselves before the Legion would come, and they culd just use the humans as canonfolder tempting then

    .
    Guardians of Tirisfal.

    The thing is we have nothing to suggest that Warcraft 3's specific timeline is the only successful End Game scenario where Azeroth wins. It's just the one where Azeroth wins without the direct help of the Guardian, just a nudge to set them on their course instead.

    The reason Medivh didn't step in at Warcraft 3 is because that version of him wanted to put fate into mortal hands. He wanted Orcs to help fight the Legion. That was why he went to Thrall in a vision, and ONLY Thrall, no other Orc. And even then his plan wasn't sure-fire, since his plans ended up having Cenarius killed. Cenarius not being a difference? Let's not forget who created the magical Axe that allowed Brox to be able to hard Sargeras in War of the Ancients, a weapon which without would simply lead to another dead Orc. Perhaps if Cenarius had lived, he could have helped in the direct fight against the return of the Legion; the timeline of events has him dying to Hellscream before he or the Night Elves had truly realized the Legion was already here.


    If Orcs didn't exist then that job remains with Medivh as Guardian.


    On top of that, deciding the Red Dragons, Paladins and Cenarius all decide not to fight the Legion just supposes that everyone on the good side becomes incompetent. And saying the Scourge will still exist despite having zero connection to the Orcs and have a replacement Lich King just because is assuming the bad guys become super competent. Well, that AU Azeroth is as fucked. I mean, it's exactly as you describe it - the Bad guys win because we're talking about a scenario where they would win. We don't even need to take Orcs out of the equation to discuss that. I could just as easily ask what if Thrall wasn't there to save Hellscream? Game over.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-14 at 11:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #122
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    So, anyone ever thought of what AU Azeroth would be like? the orcs never made it to Azeroth, how do you think things would have turned out?
    Without the horde the nation's that eventually make up the alliance would have been easy pickings for the Legion. Yea sure the well was blown up and Azeroth saved. But that was like cutting off the hand to save the body. Not to mention, the void was in the back pulling the strings and apparently death too. All with a target on Azeroth.

    As much problems and war the two factions have gotten themselves into, their constant strife has made them stronger to face threats.

    Not to mention. The dungeon opening the dark portal confirms this too. The void wanted the Legion to come, to win, to try and dig and then blamo.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    I really was asking AU Draenei AU Azeroth, but it’s been interesting to speculate a different MU Azeroth without the orca. It’s very nearly the same thing but different enough to produce different options and outcomes one will have over the other

    You didn’t factor in that the Legion would be gone in the AU Draenei AU Azeroth since it is defeated in the MU Azeroth and that defeat ends then in all realties.

    That would mean no chance for a possessed Medivh to execute anything The possession would likely end too. But would it even have happened? Does Sargeras possess every time line’s Medivh or just one Tineline’s?
    I agree with you. I may have said it in another comment, but the legion is all the same legion, so if they are gone in any timeline, they are gone in all. So yeah. However, I was throwing out more reasons than just that to kinda eliminate them.

    I'm unsure if they could still install a lich king. Since I found this post lol, I've been reading up on the older lore. One thing I can't seem to find is how the dreadlords got to Azeroth. The alliance destroy the dark 40 at the end of the second war, from 1 side. Gorefiend was sent to get artifacts, I'm not really sure of the timeline of this, whether this is during the second war, or after. But the the dark portal seems to be inactive by the time the lich king is created. I bring this up because, ultimately, the dreadlords are with the jailer. If the dreadlords can just get to azeroth willynilly, like the way Malganis, Tich, Balth, etc, the lich could could at least still happen. Medivh still posses an issue, since being a guardian and all and if he is alive and not corrupt.

    About medivh and sargeras. Sarg is locked up. Not dead. He could still potentially influence medivh if the essence he carries exists so long as he is alive, which seems to be the case since Sargeras's physical form was destroyed during the war of the ancients, but still influenced medivh. So. I think that is still possible. I still think medivh would have died in Kara. Gorona was there, but she was killed by Dadgar. So i think that is manageable for just humans.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Without the horde the nation's that eventually make up the alliance would have been easy pickings for the Legion. Yea sure the well was blown up and Azeroth saved. But that was like cutting off the hand to save the body. Not to mention, the void was in the back pulling the strings and apparently death too. All with a target on Azeroth.

    As much problems and war the two factions have gotten themselves into, their constant strife has made them stronger to face threats.

    Not to mention. The dungeon opening the dark portal confirms this too. The void wanted the Legion to come, to win, to try and dig and then blamo.
    The problem I see with this is that the Orcs have not been the only threat that united the people of Azeroth.

    You have Humans defending their nations against the Trolls, the ancient Trolls fought the Aqiri, the Night Elves and Dragons fought the Legion, the Dwarves fought amongst themselves, etc. Azeroth's history is rife with warfare, and the Orcs were just another worldly threat in a history that has been since retconned with numerous worldly threats prior.

    So the people of Azeroth aren't exactly defenseless. It's the reason why the Guardians of Tirisfal existed. It's the reason why the Night Elves stood a strong vigil for thousands of years. And throughout those years of Warfare against the Orcs, it didn't exactly unite the peoples of Azeroth at all - they still fell prey to their own inner politics and it ended up destroying Lordaeron and huge chunks of Quel'thalas while the Night Elves lost their god and the Red Dragon aspect utterly raped into submission. Humans post Orc warfare still became complacent, enough to allow tainted grain and an overzealous Prince to cause the entire downfall of their primary kingdom. It came down to a handful of survivors who made their way over seas that helped defend against Archimonde; and even then the Legion completely swept over their encampments and Archimonde made it to the World Tree.

    If anything, the way I see the events going, all that needed to be done was Medivh wake Malfurion up earlier so that Archimonde could be dealt with without the need of the Orcs and Humans to 'stall' the inevitable. The wisps collectively blowing him up would have still happened and worked to banish the rest of the demons away, and even then there wouldn't be any Scourge to worry about cleaning up because they would have never formally existed.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-14 at 11:06 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    so they would defeat the legion from home while archimonde was conquering nrodrassil? waow
    I honestly have no idea what this means either as a response to what I said or even on its own.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    why the fuck the legion would do in EK and why the fuck the elves would got here to help, if they said themselves fuck the other races?
    Nani? When did malfurion turn down aid once he found out the legion were rolling around? You seem to be attributing tyrande's actions when they thought a bunch of random green dudes were just stealing lumber with malfurions once he was told what's happening.
    Further, malfurion was willing to sail to EK on the basis Illidan might be doing something stupid. I fail to see how that doesn't support the supposition he would be willing to do the same if he knew the legion were invading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    what? no? it was part of his plan all aong to get the second Well of Eternity after ripping the tree away

    your predictions make no sense in the actual events and legion intentions.
    Yes? He rushed the tree because he knew it could make the most powerful portal (and he was salty about losing during the WotA), however, we now know that wasn't even vaguely necessary for a legion victory as there are multiple places of power strong enough on Azeroth to open and sustain large continuous nether portals (the Sunwell even while despoiled and the tomb being the most obvious examples. Vordrassil, Shala'drassil, and the nightwell also all sping to mind). Attacking Nordrassil before the entire planet had been literally flooded with demons (including KJ) and any hope of victory had been quashed is entirely down to hubris, being a glory hound and his anal pain about WotA.
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  6. #126
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    thanks, nobody knew that, besides, obviously, the plan backfired


    And? they would find a way like they always do, they could even slowly corrupt the high elves if it was necessary
    I really doubt it. The High Elves are Highborne who fought against the Legion. After what happened during the War of the Ancients, they are pretty much vaccinated against it. And as a matter of fact, after 10,000 years, the Legion did nothing to corrupt the High Elves. They never attempted anything, or if they did, it failed. The Orcs were the plan and it did cripple the human nations, even if the Orcs ultimately failed.


    Faction splitting don't mean they would be at war with each other, by the time the legion would come only one human kingdom would be standing realistic.
    If it's standing while controlling the assets of all the other nations, it's not too bad... It's not like, let's say Lordaeron, would have gone genocidal on all the other kingdoms. That would be counterproductive.


    they didn't? the orcs numbers were so large that Blackthorn was going to use then to conquer the alliance, you think that is less manpower than elves who lvied thousand years and often don't bear offspring? come on
    There was only so many ships in Lordaeron to steal, and there's a limit to their capacity. So yes, they were far less numerous than whole Khaz Modan and Quel'Thalas.


    "yeah so what?' the HE would let the night elves be fucked hiding behind their shields thinking they were safe

    you are daydreaming to believe HE would help the night elves in any form, Medivh send word to any place to help, only Jaina and thrall answered.
    Again, contrary to the Scourge, the HE would know what they're up against. When Medivh sent word, no one knew who he was and the Plague was just a mysterious disease. Jaina only listened when it was already too late, when she saw what the Scourge was all about. If the Legion itself attacked, the HE would know that their little shields would not help them if everything was destroyed. So yes, I believe that the HE could ask the NE to help against a Legion invasion.

    The humans would fight each other, that is how it works
    To what extent, that's the question. When the English conquered Wales, they did not obliterate the Welsh and England got stronger, not weaker.


    obviouslly because it was the Legon plan, and if hey conquerered that the world was fucked, they can't do home office this time no.
    Okay, I will put the rest of what I said, since you are dishonest enough to cut it:

    "I mean, obviously the World Tree and the Well of Eternity was the Legion's aim, but they went there only when they destroyed all resistance in the Eastern Kingdom. The Orcs, the Scourge, they all helped the Legion to achieve that. Again, Archimonde appeared only after the main threats against the Legion have been destroyed. Now why Terenas (and Anthonidas) refused to follow Medivh's advice? Because they didn't even know what the Plague was yet and that Terenas didn't know that Medivh was in front of him. He was reputed dead, afterall. He only thought it was a crazy prophet and that he faced a strange disease."


    Yes, it is specifically said by the devs and the lore
    It doesn't mean it makes sense.

    besides, you are even putting things here that happened in wow, not by the time RoC happened, the argument is invallid
    It is completely valid, since the thread is not specifically about the Third War. But okay, let's make it about the Third War. Where was that beautiful unity when the Legion invaded with the Scourge? Nowhere. Therefore, how did the Orcs made the humans stronger? Lordaeron got obliterated. Dalaran too. Stormwind was already in shambles. Alterac gone. Gilneas in isolation. Stromgarde only sent token forces since they were also attacked by the Scourge. Then got destroyed by Alterac traitors and Ogres.

    It would, it is said over and over again, even if you entirely dismiss how the human kingdoms would destroy themselves, none of the EK races would go to kalindor to help, straight up, they are not good Samaritans willingly to help an unknown or enemy race to face something they barely believe in.
    And yet they did several times since the begining of the game! And if the Legion would attack, they would believe it...

    They literally did, without then Legion would win back in wc3,
    As I said, yes they did help in defeating the Legion in WC3. Were they necessary? That's what had to be demonstrated and what we have been arguing about. That's not much of an argument.

    and even later as horde being super power in azeroth in the Legion expansion.
    You must be joking right? Both factions were powerless against the Legion in that expansion and were more interested to fight each other. They were more a hinderance than anything else. Hence the idea of the class orders.

    what we get is that the first time was also with the help of the tree, since those things are nor retoactivelly.
    You mean the three? No, they were not there the first time. The timeline has been changed. Brox is not even seen in the Well of Eternity dungeon.
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  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Without the horde the nation's that eventually make up the alliance would have been easy pickings for the Legion. Yea sure the well was blown up and Azeroth saved. But that was like cutting off the hand to save the body. Not to mention, the void was in the back pulling the strings and apparently death too. All with a target on Azeroth.

    As much problems and war the two factions have gotten themselves into, their constant strife has made them stronger to face threats.

    Not to mention. The dungeon opening the dark portal confirms this too. The void wanted the Legion to come, to win, to try and dig and then blamo.
    The. Is the message of wow strife and conflict is better cos it makes you stronger and is the only way you survive?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbleach View Post
    I agree with you. I may have said it in another comment, but the legion is all the same legion, so if they are gone in any timeline, they are gone in all. So yeah. However, I was throwing out more reasons than just that to kinda eliminate them.

    I'm unsure if they could still install a lich king. Since I found this post lol, I've been reading up on the older lore. One thing I can't seem to find is how the dreadlords got to Azeroth. The alliance destroy the dark 40 at the end of the second war, from 1 side. Gorefiend was sent to get artifacts, I'm not really sure of the timeline of this, whether this is during the second war, or after. But the the dark portal seems to be inactive by the time the lich king is created. I bring this up because, ultimately, the dreadlords are with the jailer. If the dreadlords can just get to azeroth willynilly, like the way Malganis, Tich, Balth, etc, the lich could could at least still happen. Medivh still posses an issue, since being a guardian and all and if he is alive and not corrupt.

    About medivh and sargeras. Sarg is locked up. Not dead. He could still potentially influence medivh if the essence he carries exists so long as he is alive, which seems to be the case since Sargeras's physical form was destroyed during the war of the ancients, but still influenced medivh. So. I think that is still possible. I still think medivh would have died in Kara. Gorona was there, but she was killed by Dadgar. So i think that is manageable for just humans.
    But without a Legion why would the dread lords or the Jailer target Azeroth and not another world ?

    Presumably it is the legions obsession and need for Azeroth that creates the means fir the jailer to get his tool to the other side to a place or group desperate enough to need it to enact his plan.

    I’m not sure why Azeroth would work or be a target without the Legion to elevate it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem I see with this is that the Orcs have not been the only threat that united the people of Azeroth.

    You have Humans defending their nations against the Trolls, the ancient Trolls fought the Aqiri, the Night Elves and Dragons fought the Legion, the Dwarves fought amongst themselves, etc. Azeroth's history is rife with warfare, and the Orcs were just another worldly threat in a history that has been since retconned with numerous worldly threats prior.

    So the people of Azeroth aren't exactly defenseless. It's the reason why the Guardians of Tirisfal existed. It's the reason why the Night Elves stood a strong vigil for thousands of years. And throughout those years of Warfare against the Orcs, it didn't exactly unite the peoples of Azeroth at all - they still fell prey to their own inner politics and it ended up destroying Lordaeron and huge chunks of Quel'thalas while the Night Elves lost their god and the Red Dragon aspect utterly raped into submission. Humans post Orc warfare still became complacent, enough to allow tainted grain and an overzealous Prince to cause the entire downfall of their primary kingdom. It came down to a handful of survivors who made their way over seas that helped defend against Archimonde; and even then the Legion completely swept over their encampments and Archimonde made it to the World Tree.

    If anything, the way I see the events going, all that needed to be done was Medivh wake Malfurion up earlier so that Archimonde could be dealt with without the need of the Orcs and Humans to 'stall' the inevitable. The wisps collectively blowing him up would have still happened and worked to banish the rest of the demons away, and even then there wouldn't be any Scourge to worry about cleaning up because they would have never formally existed.
    You make a good point. Presumably other conflicts would arise that need dealing with.

    Are you only strong through conflict? Then how do great nations who’ve had peace for a long time overcome conflicts they are faced with if war is necessary for strength?

    In the very story, the Kaldorei empire was very peaceful. But intelligence and curiosity stimulated knowledge and learning and made them strong.

    It was how they were able to overcome the unbelievably dire conflict of the legion invasion with their very queen heralding it. Impossible odds and yet they overcome.

    If anything conflict makes you weaker, not stronger. It is because you are very strong. In ways you don’t realise, that you able to survive or win and carry on despite the weakened state.

    It’s like saying starving makes you able to withstand hunger better because you are more use to it.

    It’s a flawed philosophy that experience challenges and proves false for any who observe. I think you just get more use to a crappier and harder time and it is consoling to think you are stronger and better off for it rather than it actually being the truth.

    I think conflict just proves you are already strong. It doesn’t make your people stronger. It destroys and weakens, hurts and torments. You survive, endure and overcome because you are stronger than the challenge. Not that the challenge has made you stronger.

    Kaldorei sat in a much weakened state collectively after the legion’s first invasion. The new state was not as strong as the former and they know it. However because they are strong, they endured and found new strengths to carry on.

    The second invasion of the legion was nowhere near as strong as the first one and they barely survived the second. I guess the main difference between the first and the second was that they were much more use to war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I really doubt it. The High Elves are Highborne who fought against the Legion. After what happened during the War of the Ancients, they are pretty much vaccinated against it. And as a matter of fact, after 10,000 years, the Legion did nothing to corrupt the High Elves. They never attempted anything, or if they did, it failed. The Orcs were the plan and it did cripple the human nations, even if the Orcs ultimately failed.
    That’s a good point. The elves on both continents were probably too strong and well guarded to guarantee a successful invasion and means for invasion already aware of the Legion and vigilant against it.

    This is why they go through that roundabout way of orcs then scourge etc. It is all to weaken Azeroth to then finish it off. Can’t risk the elves rallying the world and mounting a defence especially with the power of the well still available for them to use directly against the Legion unlike the first time when their puppet Azshara controlled it instead.

    No Queen Azshara type around to facilitate entry. The elves (both groups) have watched it, vigiled too well for that. Thinking about it. They successfully keep the legion away for 10,000 years.

    It’s probably why they seduce a human with power to enact a plan to bring a powerful marauding army from another world to start the process. Once that fails and the unbelievable demon juiced orcs successful at even smashing the Draenei, fail to conquer the elves and humans of Azeroth. This is when plan B of the scourge is executed. And the Night elves haven’t even been involved yet.

    Only now we realise plan B had another motive to present a more insidious mind with a means to escape his captivity.

    Nice point Frontenac

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    How so? We're not aware of anything special about Ner'zhul that made him the only candidate for Lich King. With the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne still in hand, someone else would have taken his place.
    So is the Legion just sitting on an infinite supply of Frostmourne/Helm combos? There's only 1 Legion across all timelines so it really wouldn't matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    Without the horde the nation's that eventually make up the alliance would have been easy pickings for the Legion. Yea sure the well was blown up and Azeroth saved. But that was like cutting off the hand to save the body. Not to mention, the void was in the back pulling the strings and apparently death too. All with a target on Azeroth.

    As much problems and war the two factions have gotten themselves into, their constant strife has made them stronger to face threats.

    Not to mention. The dungeon opening the dark portal confirms this too. The void wanted the Legion to come, to win, to try and dig and then blamo.
    Actually the dungeon did not confirm it because they would need to change OUR timeline not a different one. Any other timeline where it didn't happen wouldn't matter because there is only 1 Archimonde and 1 KilJaeden and 1 Sargeras etc for all timelines. The one we killed in WoD was the same one from MH. The KJ who brought Guldan to Azeroth was the same one working with the MU version. Therefore they cannot be in a million places at once so there easily could be a timeline where the dark portal never happened because the Infinite Flight was only speaking about OUR timeline.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    What....

    The orcs weren't even in azeroth the first time the legion invaded, you know...that time where the maelstrom ate itself and the world sundered....the naga were created....Sargeras lost his physical form..... yeah... that was the first time

    the SECOND invasion was with the orcs through the dark portal and that wasn't even the "legion" invading it was just the orcs.

    THE THIRD invasion was when the legion came, corrupted hellscream and the rest killed cenarius...bla bla. So to say the legion would of won without the orcs....makes 0 sense considering the first time they lost without the orcs and the second time they didn't even go with the orcs. But hey, you do you booboo
    You dont know much about the sundering if you think Broxigar wasnt instrumental to the downfall of Sargeras avatar before Aegwyn.

  10. #130
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Guardians of Tirisfal.
    ....?
    The thing is we have nothing to suggest that Warcraft 3's specific timeline is the only successful End Game scenario where Azeroth wins.
    We literally do, by blizzards own words, we can't get more straight than that, besides, all other timelines means shit whent hey are not the main one.
    Cenarius not being a difference? Let's not forget who created the magical Axe that allowed Brox to be able to hard Sargeras in War of the Ancients, a weapon which without would simply lead to another dead Orc. Perhaps if Cenarius had lived, he could have helped in the direct fight against the return of the Legion; the timeline of events has him dying to Hellscream before he or the Night Elves had truly realized the Legion was already here.
    Cenarius died by Grom, he was not going to make any difference in the Legion invasion,he creating a weapon don't mean he would amke much difference

    If Orcs didn't exist then that job remains with Medivh as Guardian.
    implying he would do anything when the last he could do was act trough the mortals

    On top of that, deciding the Red Dragons, Paladins and Cenarius all decide not to fight the Legion just supposes that everyone on the good side becomes incompetent.
    Deciding they would be completely altruist and do fight is just nonsensical, The red dragons still existed and were strong after the orcs, they did nothing, paladins(assuming they would be enough, you are making look like they would form an entire army, do you know they were rare right?) are still humans, they would do nothing that don't concern then, cenarius barely hold manoroth before, you are putting to much irreal expectations on then.


    And saying the Scourge will still exist despite having zero connection to the Orcs and have a replacement Lich King just because is assuming the bad guys become super competent.
    No, you are assuming the Legion would only create the scourge if it was by an orc, they could ahve make up a number of ways to weak azeroth, and yes, kil'jaden comapred to other was competent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I honestly have no idea what this means either as a response to what I said or even on its own.
    youa re saying that they would not need to travel to kalindor to defeat the legion, then how the fuck they would defeat then, if their main goal was kalindor? do you think the humans without their kingdoms would defeat the legion in EK before they travel to kalindor? that is just bogus

    Nani? When did malfurion turn down aid once he found out the legion were rolling around? You seem to be attributing tyrande's actions when they thought a bunch of random green dudes were just stealing lumber with malfurions once he was told what's happening.
    Tyrande precisely wanted to kill orcs and humans besides they helping, they didn't want their help. They even said what happen to the outside world mrans shit to then


    Further, malfurion was willing to sail to EK on the basis Illidan might be doing something stupid. I fail to see how that doesn't support the supposition he would be willing to do the same if he knew the legion were invading.
    and what in the ass would Malfurion go to EK if the legion focus was kalindor? he would travel there and let his home be conquered by demons? LUL

    Yes? He rushed the tree because he knew it could make the most powerful portal (and he was salty about losing during the WotA), however, we now know that wasn't even vaguely necessary for a legion victory
    If his main goal was kalindor and the wheel, which is the most powerful thing they could find, he would have nothing to do in EK, therefore, your narrative of "they defeating the LEgion in EK" is just nonsensical

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I really doubt it. The High Elves are Highborne who fought against the Legion. After what happened during the War of the Ancients, they are pretty much vaccinated against it. And as a matter of fact, after 10,000 years, the Legion did nothing to corrupt the High Elves. They never attempted anything, or if they did, it failed. The Orcs were the plan and it did cripple the human nations, even if the Orcs ultimately failed.
    fouth the legion before emans shit, they hidden in their shield, the world would burn down and they would do nothing. And yes, the high elves got corrupted, remind ou kaelthas and the whole TBC thing, they didn't got before because the Legion didn't want to or were focusing elsewhere.

    If it's standing while controlling the assets of all the other nations, it's not too bad... It's not like, let's say Lordaeron, would have gone genocidal on all the other kingdoms. That would be counterproductive.
    they would not be controlling the assets, Blizzard said over and over they would be destroyed, devouring each other, what would left would have no power tto defend azeroth, it would be a massive blodobath


    There was only so many ships in Lordaeron to steal, and there's a limit to their capacity. So yes, they were far less numerous than whole Khaz Modan and Quel'Thalas.
    the ship quantity in the campaign was a meme, ships canc arry a lot of people, so no, they would not be elss numerous than then, besides, one orc fight for 10 elves, ORcs were literally machines of war, they could not ahve the same elven magic, by numbers and strenght win against demons.

    Again, contrary to the Scourge, the HE would know what they're up against. When Medivh sent word, no one knew who he was and the Plague was just a mysterious disease. Jaina only listened when it was already too late, when she saw what the Scourge was all about. If the Legion itself attacked, the HE would know that their little shields would not help them if everything was destroyed. So yes, I believe that the HE could ask the NE to help against a Legion invasion.
    No, the elves would definitly not do that, you are thinking about a race that is not arrogant by nature, not even after the scourge humans or night elves send help for the blood elves either.

    Yeah, you are giving then too much credit

    To what extent, that's the question. When the English conquered Wales, they did not obliterate the Welsh and England got stronger, not weaker.
    the question was already answered by blizzard, to an extend they would mean shit to the legion.


    Okay, I will put the rest of what I said, since you are dishonest enough to cut it:

    no, it just didn't matter, you are trying to make a correlation that archimonde only went to kalindor, only, and only, after the defences of EK were destroyed.

    Without orcs, there would not be humans to make difference, the elves would mean shit, he would go there regardless

    It doesn't mean it makes sense.
    It makes totally sense, if you do not ignore what they say
    It is completely valid, since the thread is not specifically about the Third War.
    The thread ask azeroth orcs, without then we would not pass the third war, there is no point in going further because that would be getting the false premise of we would have survived the third way without then, and we know we would not.
    And yet they did several times since the begining of the game! And if the Legion would attack, they would believe it...
    ? they actually didn't? Medivh ask many times, many races only Jaina and Thrall answered, and many of their followers didn't want stil


    As I said, yes they did help in defeating the Legion in WC3. Were they necessary? That's what had to be demonstrated and what we have been arguing about. That's not much of an argument.
    If they were pivotal points in defending the world without then, or any other variable, the LEgion would win, so yes, they were completely necessary, again, said over over by blizzard and proved with examples. Peope are arguing the cnaon with nonsensical headcanon

    You must be joking right? Both factions were powerless against the Legion in that expansion and were more interested to fight each other. They were more a hinderance than anything else. Hence the idea of the class orders.
    No, the horde and alliance still fought the Legion offscreen and provided support around the world, not as good because broken shore but theys till did

    You mean the three? No, they were not there the first time. The timeline has been changed. Brox is not even seen in the Well of Eternity dungeon.
    those dungeons were not the original timeline

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Guardians of Tirisfal.

    The thing is we have nothing to suggest that Warcraft 3's specific timeline is the only successful End Game scenario where Azeroth wins. It's just the one where Azeroth wins without the direct help of the Guardian, just a nudge to set them on their course instead.

    The reason Medivh didn't step in at Warcraft 3 is because that version of him wanted to put fate into mortal hands. He wanted Orcs to help fight the Legion. That was why he went to Thrall in a vision, and ONLY Thrall, no other Orc. And even then his plan wasn't sure-fire, since his plans ended up having Cenarius killed. Cenarius not being a difference? Let's not forget who created the magical Axe that allowed Brox to be able to hard Sargeras in War of the Ancients, a weapon which without would simply lead to another dead Orc. Perhaps if Cenarius had lived, he could have helped in the direct fight against the return of the Legion; the timeline of events has him dying to Hellscream before he or the Night Elves had truly realized the Legion was already here.


    If Orcs didn't exist then that job remains with Medivh as Guardian.


    On top of that, deciding the Red Dragons, Paladins and Cenarius all decide not to fight the Legion just supposes that everyone on the good side becomes incompetent. And saying the Scourge will still exist despite having zero connection to the Orcs and have a replacement Lich King just because is assuming the bad guys become super competent. Well, that AU Azeroth is as fucked. I mean, it's exactly as you describe it - the Bad guys win because we're talking about a scenario where they would win. We don't even need to take Orcs out of the equation to discuss that. I could just as easily ask what if Thrall wasn't there to save Hellscream? Game over.
    Without orcs dragonflights would only have a fraction of power since demon soul would still be in place.

  12. #132
    The thing is, the writer wrote it the way that Orcs were necessary sure.

    But realistically there are tons of possibilities. The powers of Azeroth could have united after the Legion tries to attack again. It's not like that they did not know about them.
    Also take Legion were Azeroth people beat the Legion literally without Alliance or Horde. Even in Warcraft 3 the Alliance was entirely trashed, they were not really united anymore and Scourge and the Burning Legion had no problems to take them down.

    So in the end we just had Jaina and some survivors and Orks who took down a strong defender of Azeroth down before they helped fight the Legion.

    The reasoning that the Horde helped to create the Alliance is fine if the Alliance would have been instrumental in stopping the Legion at all but it was not. Neither in WC3 nor in Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    You dont know much about the sundering if you think Broxigar wasnt instrumental to the downfall of Sargeras avatar before Aegwyn.
    The Knaak version of the Sundering to be more precises. Its the most stupid things, because it made everything that exist a time paradox. In theory it also retcons how Elves learned modern magic, because there Rhonin teaches them (while in our timeline elves developed it themselves over years after the Sundering and later teches it to some of the humans)
    Personally I think the Knaak version of it created another timeline, its more like when we do the time travel dungeons.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-06-15 at 12:02 PM.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    youa re saying that they would not need to travel to kalindor to defeat the legion, then how the fuck they would defeat then, if their main goal was kalindor? do you think the humans without their kingdoms would defeat the legion in EK before they travel to kalindor? that is just bogus
    This entire paragraph is just a ball of preposition and supposition. Detonating the world tree presupposes the second invasion plays out exactly the same as it did in RoC which is on its face the opposite of the point of this thread. We have no way of knowing that without the entire events of WCI, II and it's expansion the legion would choose the method of invasion they did. Hell who even knows if without medivh's work on the dark portal his book would even have to knowledge or power to summon Archimonde.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Tyrande precisely wanted to kill orcs and humans besides they helping, they didn't want their help. They even said what happen to the outside world mrans shit to then
    Good thing malfurion is not tyrande and he is the leader of the nelves during WCIII then and (I can't stress this enough) he doesn't hold that position? Further, I can't believe you're trying to argue with a straight face the nelves would ignore a legion invasion because it's not happening on kalimdor. The obligate end goal of any legion invasion is the destruction of azeroth the night elves know this. Being xenophobic and isolationist to the point of ignoring the Tauren getting rekt by the centaurs is multiple steps of importance down from a full legion invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    and what in the ass would Malfurion go to EK if the legion focus was kalindor? he would travel there and let his home be conquered by demons? LUL
    The legion's focus was kalimdor because Archimonde had been seething for 10,000 years. If Archimonde had been sensible and just opened stable portals at places of power (remember he was acting as the summoning focal point for the legion in WCIII) all over azeroth even if he was BTFO by nordrassil it wouldn't have mattered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    If his main goal was kalindor and the wheel, which is the most powerful thing they could find, he would have nothing to do in EK, therefore, your narrative of "they defeating the LEgion in EK" is just nonsensical
    What do you mean nothing to do? The goal of the legion is to corrupt Azeroth's world soul. The well of eternity is not even vaguely necessary much less integral to the goal, it's just the most expedient method (with a side helping of payback).
    Further, you are again presupposing Archmonde would be leading the invasion in the AU scenario when he wouldn't be? Archimonde was only up to bat because KJ shit the bed with the orcs, if in the AU azeroth the orc plan never takes place, KJ never fails which means the second invasion would still be KJ's 'turn'.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    The thing is, the writer wrote it the way that Orcs were necessary sure.

    But realistically there are tons of possibilities. The powers of Azeroth could have united after the Legion tries to attack again. It's not like that they did not know about them.
    Also take Legion were Azeroth people beat the Legion literally without Alliance or Horde. Even in Warcraft 3 the Alliance was entirely trashed, they were not really united anymore and Scourge and the Burning Legion had no problems to take them down.

    So in the end we just had Jaina and some survivors and Orks who took down a strong defender of Azeroth down before they helped fight the Legion.

    The reasoning that the Horde helped to create the Alliance is fine if the Alliance would have been instrumental in stopping the Legion at all but it was not. Neither in WC3 nor in Legion.
    Really if we think a few steps ahead.
    If BFA passed before Legion. The legion won.
    The Kaldorei would not have come to help because they did not trust the Alliance or Ogrimar.

    So if we go by how it is written. No matter how much they say it in the end, no. The Horde was of no use and only brought more "Trouble" to Azaroth.

    Although to be honest when they said that. That Version of the Horde and the Alliance if they were useful.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    So, anyone ever thought of what AU Azeroth would be like? the orcs never made it to Azeroth, how do you think things would have turned out?
    The infinite dragonflight tried to use this as a lure to get the alliance on their side, trying to halt Medivh's portal and stop Thrall's rise respectfully.

    The bronze dragonflight revealed that the Legion would come anyway and the now complacent and passive races of Azeroth would simply be the somanieth to burn.

    As to why an aleged creation of the old gods would want this: The old gods have never been afraid if the Legion, and view them as tools for their own final victory, thus happily helping them assault Azeroth again and again.

    So yeah, this particular AU has been evaluated pretty conclusively in that sense.

    However if you mean to give it a WoD-like treatment you would need to add something to alter the progress of time, like Garrosh did.

    Maybe some magical artefacts, secreta, powerful individuals could work, as technologically they were always quite advanced (and convincing elves to use technology is pretty much a nonstarter).
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
    Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.

    Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.

  16. #136
    go do some caverns if time stuff

    at intro quest, custodian if time shows players black morass and says, that if horde never invaded azeroth, human nations would have never united as alliance and instead would fight each other, thus azeroth would be much weaker and easier to conquer

    after orcish invasion, alliance was formed it became supreme power and stopped horde
    later during 3rd invasion human forces + new horde heloed kaldorei to defeat legion again


    bomrox and rhonin do not count

    originally Kaldorei won WOTA with help of wild gods and native races.

    because of infinite dragonflight shenanigans,brox rhonin and krasus went back to time and helped kaldorei. it didnot change outcome.
    and timelines were rewritten a bit
    and changed

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by masterjc View Post
    later during 3rd invasion human forces + new horde heloed kaldorei to defeat legion again
    It was just some humans Jaina could gather together, and not the might of the Alliance anymore. The Alliance was already in disarray, some of them were isolated most others fell to the scourge. So tell me... how did it really help that humans united as Alliance, in the end, to fight the Legion there? It literally did nothing.
    Last edited by Hellspawn; 2021-06-15 at 01:38 PM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by LazarusLong View Post
    Without orcs dragonflights would only have a fraction of power since demon soul would still be in place.
    That makes no sense considering it was Humans Elves and Dwarves who ultimately freed Alexstrasza from the demon soul. Deathwing was abusing its power through a puppet who just happened to be Nekros. He literally gave it to the Orcs. If Orcs didn't come over, Deathwing could have used another puppet, like some random Dark Iron or Forest Troll. Same story of Day of the Dragon would play out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    ....?
    You remember who Medivh is right?

    Cenarius died by Grom, he was not going to make any difference in the Legion invasion,he creating a weapon don't mean he would amke much difference
    Sure made a difference in War of the Ancients. His magic axe is what allowed Brox to score a hit on Sargeras and push him back out of the world. Do you not know your lore?

    implying he would do anything when the last he could do was act trough the mortals
    Because he chose not to participate directly. He wanted the races to unite and fight, and even them it was a risky plan considering-

    - Human Kingdoms refused to listen and still fell
    - Arthas still ended up becoming the enemy
    - Hellscream was corrupted again
    - Cenarius died
    - Orcs and Humans contributed quite little to the final battle, Archimonde still reached Hyjal.

    Think hard. What did the Orcs really do in Warcraft 3 to fight the Legion? They killed Mannaroth. At the price of also having killed Cenarius. Cenarius was strong enough to defeat Mannaroth during War of the Ancients, which is the reason he used Grom to kill him. The Night Elves came at a loss without Cenarius. That's about it really.

    The rest of the war was won because of Malfurions gambit with the wisps.

    Also if Medivh really wanted to be more proactive, he could have worked towards waking the Ancients like we did in Cataclysm. Yet as I said, he wanted fate to be in the hands of mortals, not through its demigod protectors. Not Dragons, not Wild Gods, not Titan Keepers. He chose Mortals.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-15 at 02:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    these books created multiple time paradoxes into sure how much of it is retconned but all of it should be retconned imho, its some major stupid stuff.
    I'm still so annoyed by this... Why couldn't Knaak just write a book about the War of the Ancients without inserting his own characters? So unnecessary.

  20. #140
    Everyone seens to forget that Alliance races are only together because of the Horde. Before, and even after Warcraft 1, those races fought each other.

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