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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Everyone seens to forget that Alliance races are only together because of the Horde. Before, and even after Warcraft 1, those races fought each other.
    Sure helped them fight the Demons and Scourge in Warcraft 3 didn't it?

    Oh wait, the Alliance fell utterly and completely because they didn't maintain unity at all after Warcraft 2...
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Without the orcs, taurens would be exterminated by the quilboar and the centaurs, the darkspear by the murlocs, there would be no horde or alliance to fight in the third war helping the night elves, they would Lose and the legion would conquer everything.
    God, imagine being exterminated by murlocs. How embarrassing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Plus, without Broxxigar the night elves would had lost in the first legion invasion
    Yeah no, Broxigar was just there because Knaak wanted him to be there. The Night Elves still would've won the war like they did the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daronokk View Post
    It was this invasion that made Sargeras meet the Orcish race in the form of Broxigar and is the reason the Orcs were 'recruited' / corrupted. Two can play this game, the Night Elves are the reason everything is f*cked. Or similarly you can blame the Draenei for leading the Burning Legion to the Orcish homeworld.
    This is just false, the Burning Legion came across the orcs when they were chasing the Draenei across the universe.

    I've said this so many times already but I don't care, Broxigar was a dumb character Knaak inserted into the story (just like Rhonin and Krasus). The whole novel would've been way better without them.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    So is the Legion just sitting on an infinite supply of Frostmourne/Helm combos? There's only 1 Legion across all timelines so it really wouldn't matter.
    That'd be a great question for Blizzard. I'm not going to try and make sense of something even they can't bother to.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    You dont know much about the sundering if you think Broxigar wasnt instrumental to the downfall of Sargeras avatar before Aegwyn.
    You people really need to stop tooting Broxigar's horn so much. He was just a character that was inserted by the writer because said writer has a habit of creating self inserts.

    Furthermore, by inserting Broxigar, Knaak created a paradox. When they first saw the Orcs, Tyrande and Shandris referred to them as 'greenskins', indicating they had never seen them before. But somehow they both met one 10.000 years earlier.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    That'd be a great question for Blizzard. I'm not going to try and make sense of something even they can't bother to.
    Based on the explanation of Shadowlands, with multiple "threads" eventually forming the same "rope" in the afterlife, there is only one Shadowlands, similar to only one Legion. This means there's only the one Runecarver to create Frostmourne, so while they could potentially produce more, it seems very unlikely considering how rare the mourneblades have been.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    That'd be a great question for Blizzard. I'm not going to try and make sense of something even they can't bother to.
    I mean people act like the bad lore started after Metzen left, but Metzen was a part of the whole 1 Legion thing and many things before that, but the 1 Legion for all timelines is probably hands down the worst piece of lore overall. Even beyond Medan which was written for preteens pretty much and a lot of that tween material is full of Mary Sue characters etc. It's not meant to be a deep piece these days, although I'd have to time travel to find out who certain older novels were written for that they make you read in school.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    The. Is the message of wow strife and conflict is better cos it makes you stronger and is the only way you survive?

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    But without a Legion why would the dread lords or the Jailer target Azeroth and not another world ?

    Presumably it is the legions obsession and need for Azeroth that creates the means fir the jailer to get his tool to the other side to a place or group desperate enough to need it to enact his plan.

    I’m not sure why Azeroth would work or be a target without the Legion to elevate it
    what..? You do know that... The Titans want Azeroth because she is the strongest world soul... You know the Legion wanted to kill her because the void wanted to corrupt her... the dread lords literally made the burning legion a thing... which was them infiltrating order AND fel/chaos by instituting a fallen titan as their leader... The light even has interests in Azeroth since it has multiple times aided us in protecting her... and the Jailer wants to consume her as well... All of the cosmic forces move upon azeroth to some degree or another. All of them are after her immense power.

    The dreadlords are the means. Since they can seemingly traverse the cosmos, ( sargeras found them on multiple planets, 1 being a void planet ), and they literally are the ones who brought necromancy into the legion ( Nathrezim were first seen animating corpses in Suramar during WOTA ). The cult of the damned could have still been made. The legion used the lich king to get to Azeroth.

    The legion's interest is far from what makes Azeroth special. The fact that she is an unborn titan, with immense power, that many, if not all, of the cosmic forces in play are scrabbling for control over. If there were no legion, why would the other cosmic forces just... stop? Like AQ, all of the old god stuff, deathwing, Rag, etc. These things were not caused by the legion. The old gods were after azeroth before the titans found her... which is what triggered the legion.

  8. #148
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josyel View Post
    Everyone seens to forget that Alliance races are only together because of the Horde. Before, and even after Warcraft 1, those races fought each other.
    Indeed. Yet, they did unite. If they allied against the Horde, how could have it been impossible to do it against the Burning Legion?
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Indeed. Yet, they did unite. If they allied against the Horde, how could have it been impossible to do it against the Burning Legion?
    Because Blizz wrote it that way.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Indeed. Yet, they did unite. If they allied against the Horde, how could have it been impossible to do it against the Burning Legion?
    I believe that when they said this phrase BFA was not an option and the ancient gods would not die so easily.
    Then the Horde would save Azeroth to help against the ancient gods. Instead of nearly destroying it for 6 months.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    I'm still so annoyed by this... Why couldn't Knaak just write a book about the War of the Ancients without inserting his own characters? So unnecessary.
    i think or suspect blizzard felt you needed an orc and human to keep it "Warcraft".. maybe night elves were too new - the book was commissioned around the same time the RTS was being designed, they fleshed out it's lore then, I guess at that time, since no one knew night elves, that you would need this.

    The books took years to complete the first coming out a month before world of warcrafts release. The night elves were still relatively a new race and not quite commonly associated with warcraft yet.

    IT is to be noted the original timeline is also changed by the time travel, the original war was 250 years long from Queen Azshara contacting and letting the first demons through all the way to the sundering itself., but happens now in a few short years. The kaldorei originally achieved all the things Krasus , Rhonin and Brox are now considered to have done.

    One wonders how much this changed the kaldorei's actual experience in the long vigil and war of the ancients - technically it should, but then they hadn't solidified their time travel philosophies either. It is later that they invent different timelines and things like the changes made by corrections leading to the restoration of the original timeline rather than being part of a new original timeline.

    The retconned all oother time jumps to fit their new model except this one.. maybe it's because of the roles Krassus, and Brox and Rhonin later play in subsequent material. however if the new time laws they invented later apply, it would mean our Azeroth that has Night elves meet brox actually, is an alternate reality because it's changed from the original timeline so it's a splinter reality..

    Does that mean the MU was destroyed by the meddling infinite flight and the legion never came? or does the MU's Rhonin/Krasus/Brox trip have the timeline repaired and reset to the original instead of keeping the modification.

    Who knows, it's all fucked up. Knaak's account is widely regarded as the first real major narrative error of Warcraft's lore, while the book was well received, there was large dissatisfaction with Rhonin , Krauss and Brox used in this way. ever since those novels, those characters have been despised. Especially Rhonin and Krauss, and ultimately led to the being killed off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbleach View Post
    what..? You do know that... The Titans want Azeroth because she is the strongest world soul... You know the Legion wanted to kill her because the void wanted to corrupt her... the dread lords literally made the burning legion a thing... which was them infiltrating order AND fel/chaos by instituting a fallen titan as their leader... The light even has interests in Azeroth since it has multiple times aided us in protecting her... and the Jailer wants to consume her as well... All of the cosmic forces move upon azeroth to some degree or another. All of them are after her immense power.

    The dreadlords are the means. Since they can seemingly traverse the cosmos, ( sargeras found them on multiple planets, 1 being a void planet ), and they literally are the ones who brought necromancy into the legion ( Nathrezim were first seen animating corpses in Suramar during WOTA ). The cult of the damned could have still been made. The legion used the lich king to get to Azeroth.

    The legion's interest is far from what makes Azeroth special. The fact that she is an unborn titan, with immense power, that many, if not all, of the cosmic forces in play are scrabbling for control over. If there were no legion, why would the other cosmic forces just... stop? Like AQ, all of the old god stuff, deathwing, Rag, etc. These things were not caused by the legion. The old gods were after azeroth before the titans found her... which is what triggered the legion.
    Ah see your point, I think maybe I got a little confused. Wrongly assuming that without the Legion, the Titans wouldn't have found Azeroth.. but the story is both the old gods and then Titans found Azeroth before Sargeras formed the legion. ws it not Azeroth that motivated him to escalate the timetable of his plans/ don't remember for sure.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by ohwell View Post
    I mean people act like the bad lore started after Metzen left, but Metzen was a part of the whole 1 Legion thing and many things before that, but the 1 Legion for all timelines is probably hands down the worst piece of lore overall. Even beyond Medan which was written for preteens pretty much and a lot of that tween material is full of Mary Sue characters etc. It's not meant to be a deep piece these days, although I'd have to time travel to find out who certain older novels were written for that they make you read in school.
    Which is exactly why I'm not interested in considering it in this scenario.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    i think or suspect blizzard felt you needed an orc and human to keep it "Warcraft".. maybe night elves were too new - the book was commissioned around the same time the RTS was being designed, they fleshed out it's lore then, I guess at that time, since no one knew night elves, that you would need this.

    The books took years to complete the first coming out a month before world of warcrafts release. The night elves were still relatively a new race and not quite commonly associated with warcraft yet.

    IT is to be noted the original timeline is also changed by the time travel, the original war was 250 years long from Queen Azshara contacting and letting the first demons through all the way to the sundering itself., but happens now in a few short years. The kaldorei originally achieved all the things Krasus , Rhonin and Brox are now considered to have done.

    One wonders how much this changed the kaldorei's actual experience in the long vigil and war of the ancients - technically it should, but then they hadn't solidified their time travel philosophies either. It is later that they invent different timelines and things like the changes made by corrections leading to the restoration of the original timeline rather than being part of a new original timeline.

    The retconned all oother time jumps to fit their new model except this one.. maybe it's because of the roles Krassus, and Brox and Rhonin later play in subsequent material. however if the new time laws they invented later apply, it would mean our Azeroth that has Night elves meet brox actually, is an alternate reality because it's changed from the original timeline so it's a splinter reality..

    Does that mean the MU was destroyed by the meddling infinite flight and the legion never came? or does the MU's Rhonin/Krasus/Brox trip have the timeline repaired and reset to the original instead of keeping the modification.

    Who knows, it's all fucked up. Knaak's account is widely regarded as the first real major narrative error of Warcraft's lore, while the book was well received, there was large dissatisfaction with Rhonin , Krauss and Brox used in this way. ever since those novels, those characters have been despised. Especially Rhonin and Krauss, and ultimately led to the being killed off.

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    Ah see your point, I think maybe I got a little confused. Wrongly assuming that without the Legion, the Titans wouldn't have found Azeroth.. but the story is both the old gods and then Titans found Azeroth before Sargeras formed the legion. ws it not Azeroth that motivated him to escalate the timetable of his plans/ don't remember for sure.
    So it was either Sargeras or Aggramar that found azeroth first. The pantheon came as a whole and tried to deal with the old gods, like plucking one out of the planet, which ended up with the shaa being created and the well of eternity. So they made their constructs to wage war and all that and won. Sargeras went mad after the dreadlords told him about the voids plan. So he wanted to wipe everything out. And so he started to. He was trying to get to azeroth to destroy her to prevent the old gods from breaking free and corrupting her.

    So yea, it goes titans zooming around space doing titan things. Old gods land on azeroth and get rooted in. Have wars amongst themselves, etc. Aggramar and sargeras split up. Dreadlords break sarg's mind. Sarg brings the legion to a planet, Nihilam, and Sarg then basically 1 shots the titans after some talking between them. He then starts looking for the planet. The old gods, seemingly, seem to be the first true, acting, threat to azeroth. Elementals were there before the old gods, but that's about it. They weren't trying to kill azeroth, just eachother lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Which is exactly why I'm not interested in considering it in this scenario.
    It makes it all the more interesting, at least for this conversation. I do genuinely hate how time travel is handled in wow. But, for this specific topic, I think it actually adds to it.

    If its the same legion, that means its the same Sargeras. Which means, since he was removed from the nether and locked away, there should be no burning legion, assuming he works like a demon, which if hes able to persist all timelines like the legion, the same rule should apply if you were to remove its leader without him being dead. Blizz did make a mistake with the 1 legion thing. They really did. But if the same rules could apply to Sargeras as the legion, since he is their ruler, their cause, infused with fel/demonic energies, yada yada, there being no burning legion now for any time line, or at the very least, the AU that WoD took place in. It completely removes the legion in all timelines things and blah blah. All gone. Simple.

    How would AU Azeroth fair without the legion OR the orcs.
    Last edited by bigbleach; 2021-06-15 at 11:45 PM. Reason: redundant statement

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Which is exactly why I'm not interested in considering it in this scenario.
    Except the fact that it's something that cannot be ignored until they come out and say it was simply that AU Draenor and MU Azeroth were somehow linked and/or whatever Kairoz did made it exclusive to those 2(since it was clearly our KJ dealing with Guldan you can't really just ignore that). That's like saying Tyrande might have been working with Sylvanas and Nathanos all along if you simply ignore the entire Night Warrior story because you can't just ignore it.

  15. #155
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    God, imagine being exterminated by murlocs. How embarrassing.
    to be fair, they were controlled by the naga/sea witch, and before were already overuned and hunted by the humans, they were in a rly bad spot.

    Yeah no, Broxigar was just there because Knaak wanted him to be there. The Night Elves still would've won the war like they did the first time.
    he was made canon retroactively, so the "first time" actually had broxx and the others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    This entire paragraph is just a ball of preposition and supposition.
    that is literally blizzard own words, it is taking word of god, without horde and alliance the legion would take over the night elves.

    Detonating the world tree presupposes the second invasion plays out exactly the same as it did in RoC which is on its face the opposite of the point of this thread.
    No matter how the events unfold, what it matter is their goal, the second invasion would not play out the same, obviously, because there would not be alliance, horde or even scourge, but the main goal of archimonde was the world tree still, that you can't deny.

    We have no way of knowing that
    We do know, because blizzard have told us,

    1. Without horde, there would be no alliance.
    2. Without horde and aliance there would not be a final stand in hyjal.
    3. Legion win.

    Good thing malfurion is not tyrande and he is the leader of the nelves during WCIII then and (I can't stress this enough) he doesn't hold that position? Further, I can't believe you're trying to argue with a straight face the nelves would ignore a legion invasion because it's not happening on kalimdor. The obligate end goal of any legion invasion is the destruction of azeroth the night elves know this. Being xenophobic and isolationist to the point of ignoring the Tauren getting rekt by the centaurs is multiple steps of importance down from a full legion invasion.
    Wut? she is the leader of the night elves with him and was commaning her people while he was sleeping, did that just get over your head?

    Im not talking about night elves ignoring, im talking about the blood elves ignoring the invasion of the legion in kalindor, they would give two shits about then.

    The legion's focus was kalimdor because Archimonde had been seething for 10,000 years. If Archimonde had been sensible and just opened stable portals at places of power (remember he was acting as the summoning focal point for the legion in WCIII) all over azeroth even if he was BTFO by nordrassil it wouldn't have mattered.
    No, he wanted the tree because it was on top of the second wheel, basically the strongest source of magic he could get

    What do you mean nothing to do? The goal of the legion is to corrupt Azeroth's world soul. The well of eternity is not even vaguely necessary much less integral to the goal, it's just the most expedient method (with a side helping of payback).
    Of course it is, and that was his goal, did you forget how they almost made sargeras come toa zeroth with the first wheel?

    can you put the tic and the tec together to figure it out what he would do with the second?
    Further, you are again presupposing Archmonde would be leading the invasion in the AU scenario when he wouldn't be? Archimonde was only up to bat because KJ shit the bed with the orcs, if in the AU azeroth the orc plan never takes place, KJ never fails which means the second invasion would still be KJ's 'turn'.
    what the heck au have to do with anything?

    Au azeroth ahve no world soul, only the "main timeline" does lmao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You remember who Medivh is right?
    ...and?

    are you implying he would fight in hyjal?


    Sure made a difference in War of the Ancients. His magic axe is what allowed Brox to score a hit on Sargeras and push him back out of the world. Do you not know your lore?
    And since there is no orcs, how this was was supposed to do anything dear? do you know your lore and how an axe can be wielded alone?

    Did you also forget he didn't make it alone?

    And do you realize you are showing he is a glorified blacksmither but not a fighter?
    Because he chose not to participate directly. He wanted the races to unite and fight, and even them it was a risky plan considering-
    Ahd yes, not because he could not fight then, but because he chose not too, right.

    - Human Kingdoms refused to listen and still fell
    hum? no? only lordaeron and dalaran fell
    - Arthas still ended up becoming the enemy
    And it was arthas who fooled one of the Legion plans by giving the skull of gul'dan to Illidan?

    - Hellscream was corrupted again
    And because of that killed manoroth?

    - Cenarius died
    which like showed, pointless
    - Orcs and Humans contributed quite little to the final battle, Archimonde still reached Hyjal.
    quite little? they were the final stand that delayed his forces, only because of then malfurion had enough time to do the spell.


    Think hard. What did the Orcs really do in Warcraft 3 to fight the Legion?
    You can "think" your headcanon all the way you like, without orcs legion would win, that is word of god from blizzard.Likking or not will change little.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbleach View Post
    How would AU Azeroth fair without the legion OR the orcs.
    Then, possibly, Neltharion wins. Not via Dragon Soul, but something similar. Or the Void is unleashed either via C'thun winning the Shifting Sands or Yogg Saron breaking free from Ulduar.

    We are shown in Cataclysm that the Twilight Hammer and sleeper agents of the Void are many in numbers, so there's that aswell: no matter how the political circumstances end up shaping the society, or vice versa, there comes a point where infighting and powers have to be tipped against one another, and without the Legion, the Orcs and all the things the coming of the Horde set in motion, Azeroth can't help but fall to the Void.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    1. Without horde, there would be no alliance.
    2. Without horde and aliance there would not be a final stand in hyjal.
    3. Legion win.
    No horde
    Without Guldan
    Without Nerzul
    Without Lich King
    Without AnubArack
    No Plague
    Without Keltuzad
    Without Arthas
    Without Archiomde
    No Legion in W3
    No peel on Mount Hyjal

    The only "token" that would have legion would be Mediv.


    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    he was made canon retroactively, so the "first time" actually had broxx and the others.
    If Broxigar were 100% cannon. Tyrande and the Kaldorei would get along with the Orcs.

    But no matter how much they write what Kanack wants. W3 continues to exist. So Broxigar only altered the timeline and this is the original Line where the Elves won in 250 years.

    And possibly that would be the real difference between Cone without Horde. The wars would simply last longer.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-06-16 at 11:49 AM.

  18. #158
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    If Broxigar were 100% cannon. Tyrande and the Kaldorei would get along with the Orcs.

    But no matter how much they write what Kanack wants. W3 continues to exist. So Broxigar only altered the timeline and this is the original Line where the Elves won in 250 years.

    And possibly that would be the real difference between Cone without Horde. The wars would simply last longer.
    Broxigar is 100% canon, but one Orc can't really solve for racial tensions between the Night Elves and the Orcs later on in the timeline, especially in light of the Warsong Orcs despoiling Ashenvale and killing Cenarius. Tyrande and the Night Elves also had pretty limited contact with Brox, who kept himself mostly apart save for Illidan and Malfurion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Broxigar is 100% canon, but one Orc can't really solve for racial tensions between the Night Elves and the Orcs later on in the timeline, especially in light of the Warsong Orcs despoiling Ashenvale and killing Cenarius. Tyrande and the Night Elves also had pretty limited contact with Brox, who kept himself mostly apart save for Illidan and Malfurion.
    The point is still maintained that when Broxigar does not appear the Lore acts as if it were not.
    I mean if I know it's cannon. But the Lore seems to be more written around the 250 year war.

    Look at how the union between the two timelines.

    PS: Not only Broxigar but the entire Novel in genreal. Maiev acts like Jarold doesn't exist too. Mostly because the original Maiev has no family.

  20. #160
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    No horde
    Without Guldan
    Without Nerzul
    Without Lich King
    Without AnubArack
    No Plague
    Without Keltuzad
    Without Arthas
    Without Archiomde
    No Legion in W3
    No peel on Mount Hyjal
    no horde:

    1. Without horde, there would be no alliance.
    2. Without horde and aliance there would not be a final stand in hyjal.
    3. Legion win.

    Again, you are going against word of god with a strawman.

    If Broxigar were 100% cannon. Tyrande and the Kaldorei would get along with the Orcs.
    Broxx was canon and proved so in legion expansion, the problem is tyrande and the kaldorei are still elves, therefore, egocentric egoistic bastards.

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